Does faith justify? (I have an answer, but would like input.

Does faith justify?


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klutedavid

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interesting reply. I was discussing the OP in light of the words of Christ. Do you care to elaborate?
The OP is stated below.

Does faith justify?

Here is what you said.
There is no biblical argument against the Catholic faith. I would be interested to hear what you think the arguments are. Which belief did you argue against as a child?
What has the opinion of any denomination of Christianity to do with the OP?
 
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Soyeong

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The term "Works of faith" is another oxymoron, by Romans 4:5.

Yes, I agree that both Jesus in the 4 gospels, as well as James was teaching that faith require works. That is not surprising since Jesus was born under the Law, so he cannot possibly be preaching Romans 4:5.

It's only in the but now time period that Romans 4:5 applies.

Even if someone managed to live in perfect obedience to the Mosaic Law, then they still would not earn their justification by their obedience because the Mosaic Law was never given as a means of earning our justification. So trying to earn our justification by obeying the Mosaic Law has always been a fundamental misunderstanding of why we should obey it.

Can you at least grant that there can be reasons that someone can choose to do works other than trying to earn their justification? If so, then verses that speak against earning our justification by our works should not be understood as being mutually exclusive with doing good works for other reasons.

Yep, people who try to make Paul and James say the same thing usually end up making circular arguments along the lines of "We are saved by faith alone, but the faith that saves is never alone"

It always makes me go "durrr"?

If the only reason to do good works was to earn our justification, then then the fact that we are justified by faith would abolish our need to do good works, however, in Romans 3:31, Paul did not want us to draw that conclusion, but rather he concluded that our faith upholds God's law, so there must be some other reason for doing good works, namely faith. Saying that we are justified by faith alone is denying that there are any works that we can do to earn our justification, however, if the same faith by which we are justified also upholds our obedience to God's law, then our faith is never alone.


Works are necessary for rewards in heaven, but not for salvation. (1 Corinthians 3:10-15)

Would you agree with that?

I agree that works are necessary for rewards, but I can't agree that they aren't necessary for salvation. Doing good works is an inherent part of the concept of being saved from not doing good works, so being saved from not doing good works apart from doing good works is an oxymoron. In regard to Titus 2:11-14, we can't be trained by grace to do good works apart from doing good works. Other verses like Matthew 19:17, Romans 2:13, Romans 6:19-23, and Matthew 7:21-23 all make it clear that works are necessary for salvation, but none of these verses are saying that works are necessary to earn our salvation, so that is not the reason why we need to do good works.
 
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To which I replied, "I believe the concern of the Free Grace people is the idea of a 50/50 salvation. 50% the blood of Jesus and 50% our works. That Jesus dying for our sins only covers half of our salvation and our works makes up the other half."

Well, first, the Bible does not really give us any percentage in regards to Grace and Sanctification in view of salvation like 50/50. Second, hypothetically speaking for the sake argument, if it was 50/50: While the Free Grace proponent may think it is wrong to have 50% grace, and 50% good works, one can easily say that the alternative downside to the Free Grace position is that they are being saved by 100% grace at the expense of them doing evil works. For a person is going to do works regardless. For what sounds better? Doing evil in sin in God's name or doing good works in God's name? Did not Jesus say, “Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them” in Matthew 7:20?

Now, just doing works is not the key, either. We see believers who did wonderful works in Christ's name but yet they were told by Christ to depart from Him because He did not know them, and they worked iniquity. For it is written:

“And then will I profess unto them,
I never knew you: depart from me,
ye that work iniquity.” (Matthew 7:23).​

Iniquity is sin. In other words, these believers were justifying sin. This is why these believers truly did not know the Lord (See 1 John 2:3-4).
 
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Soyeong

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What I notice in James and Hebrews 11 is they list a singular work. Abraham and Rahab were said to be justified by performing a single work as a result of faith. It doesn't say that Rahab the harlot did any other work her entire life outside of that one. The point I think is that their faith resulted in something.

Abraham was justified when he believed God (Genesis 15:6, Romans 4:4-5), but he was also justified before then when he obeyed the call to go to the land where he would receive his inheritance (Genesis 12:1-3, Hebrews 11:8), and after that when he offered Isaac (Genesis 22, James 2:21-24). The fact that Abraham is listed twice in Hebrews 11 indicates that justification is not a single event.

I believe the concern of the Free Grace people is the idea of a 50/50 salvation. 50% the blood of Jesus and 50% our works. That Jesus dying for our sins only covers half of our salvation and our works makes up the other half. Which they believe is what the Lordship Salvation people are teaching as far as I can tell.

Now this is where it gets confusing. John MacArthur is probably the best known teacher of Lordship Salvation, and has been accused by the Free Grace people of teaching that salvation is a combination of grace plus works.

However, I heard John MacArthur denounce believing in a salvation that is a combination of grace plus works. Saying that is false Christianity teaching a false gospel that is to be cursed.

When I heard him say that, I was astounded, because that's what he himself has been accused of.

What John MacArthur said can be heard @3:29 HERE


I am not saying that there hasn't been anyone who has taught that salvation is 50% the blood of Jesus and 50% our works, but I've never seen anyone who teaches Lordship salvation teach that. In Titus 2:11-14, our salvation is describe as being trained by grace to essentially do good works, so it is not that God's grace gets us 50% of the way there and we need to add to it enough good works to earn the other half of our salvation, but that being trained doing good is itself the content of how God is gracious to us. Likewise, in Psalms 119:29, David wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey His law,
 
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Guojing

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I agree that works are necessary for rewards, but I can't agree that they aren't necessary for salvation. Doing good works is an inherent part of the concept of being saved from not doing good works, so being saved from not doing good works apart from doing good works is an oxymoron. In regard to Titus 2:11-14, we can't be trained by grace to do good works apart from doing good works. Other verses like Matthew 19:17, Romans 2:13, Romans 6:19-23, and Matthew 7:21-23 all make it clear that works are necessary for salvation, but none of these verses are saying that works are necessary to earn our salvation, so that is not the reason why we need to do good works.

Do you realize that your reasoning that I have bolded can be very contradictory to a reader?

You believe that works are necessary for salvation, and quoted some verses that support that belief.

But you concluded with "but none of these verses are saying that works are necessary to earn our salvation"

Are you contradicting yourself?
 
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Ceallaigh

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Well, first, the Bible does not really give us any percentage in regards to Grace and Sanctification in view of salvation like 50/50. Second, hypothetically speaking for the sake argument, if it was 50/50: While the Free Grace proponent may think it is wrong to have 50% grace, and 50% good works, one can easily say that the alternative downside to the Free Grace position is that they are being saved by 100% grace at the expense of them doing evil works. For a person is going to do works regardless. For what sounds better? Doing evil in sin in God's name or doing good works in God's name? Did not Jesus say, “Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them” in Matthew 7:20?

Now, just doing works is not the key, either. We see believers who did wonderful works in Christ's name but yet they were told by Christ to depart from Him because He did not know them, and they worked iniquity. For it is written:

“And then will I profess unto them,
I never knew you: depart from me,
ye that work iniquity.” (Matthew 7:23).​

Iniquity is sin. In other words, these believers were justifying sin. This is why these believers truly did not know the Lord (See 1 John 2:3-4).

I think the free grace people will point out that Matthew 7:20 is addressing false prophets ministers and teachers. The stereotypical prosperity televangelist comes to mind. Or the how to be a better you motivational guru masquerading as a minister.

And likewise continued in Matthew 7:22-23 (to paraphrase) "Lord Lord didn't I run around on a stage in my three thousand dollar suit making a big spectacle of prophesying and healing people and casting out demons in your name (while raking in lots of fame, prestige, and zillions of dollars)?"

And Jesus says "I never knew you". Not I no longer know you, but I never ever knew you. They had never been joined to Him. He had never abided in them. There had never been a merriage.

I think maybe this is another part of the Bible that ends up getting misunderstood and or misapplied as talking about the whole body of Christ, when it seems to obviously be singling out false prophets.

Just like I misapplied 1 Corentheans 3:15 to me, when it really only applies to teachers and ministers.

I notice how in Matthew 7:23 they say, have we not prophesied. Most Christians I know, including myself, do not prophesy, are not prophets.
 
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Ceallaigh

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Abraham was justified when he believed God (Genesis 15:6, Romans 4:4-5), but he was also justified before then when he obeyed the call to go to the land where he would receive his inheritance (Genesis 12:1-3, Hebrews 11:8), and after that when he offered Isaac (Genesis 22, James 2:21-24). The fact that Abraham is listed twice in Hebrews 11 indicates that justification is not a single event.



I am not saying that there hasn't been anyone who has taught that salvation is 50% the blood of Jesus and 50% our works, but I've never seen anyone who teaches Lordship salvation teach that. In Titus 2:11-14, our salvation is describe as being trained by grace to essentially do good works, so it is not that God's grace gets us 50% of the way there and we need to add to it enough good works to earn the other half of our salvation, but that being trained doing good is itself the content of how God is gracious to us. Likewise, in Psalms 119:29, David wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey His law,

I was answering a question someone asked about what free grace people had a problem with. I don't know for sure if it's a problem that actually exists in Lordship Salvation theology.

This video lays out the objection to it:


Here's another shorter free grace video:


I'm not a free grace proponent myself. I haven't made up my mind as to Free Grace vs Lordship Salvation.
 
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klutedavid

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Well, first, the Bible does not really give us any percentage in regards to Grace and Sanctification in view of salvation like 50/50. Second, hypothetically speaking for the sake argument, if it was 50/50: While the Free Grace proponent may think it is wrong to have 50% grace, and 50% good works, one can easily say that the alternative downside to the Free Grace position is that they are being saved by 100% grace at the expense of them doing evil works. For a person is going to do works regardless. For what sounds better? Doing evil in sin in God's name or doing good works in God's name? Did not Jesus say, “Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them” in Matthew 7:20?

Now, just doing works is not the key, either. We see believers who did wonderful works in Christ's name but yet they were told by Christ to depart from Him because He did not know them, and they worked iniquity. For it is written:

“And then will I profess unto them,
I never knew you: depart from me,
ye that work iniquity.” (Matthew 7:23).​

Iniquity is sin. In other words, these believers were justifying sin. This is why these believers truly did not know the Lord (See 1 John 2:3-4).
Why did Jesus say that He never knew them (Matthew 7:23)?

What is the iniquity that Jesus is referring to?

Everyone sins, so why were these folk disregarded by Jesus?
 
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Soyeong

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Do you realize that your reasoning that I have bolded can be very contradictory to a reader?

You believe that works are necessary for salvation, and quoted some verses that support that belief.

But you concluded with "but none of these verses are saying that works are necessary to earn our salvation"

Are you contradicting yourself?

No. What I said would be self-contradictory only if I also said that the only reason to do good works was to earn our salvation, however, I have not said that, and in fact, God never commanded good works as a means of earning our salvation. If there can be reasons for why we can choose to do good works other than trying to earn our salvation, then doing good works can be necessary for salvation for one of those reasons, but not for the reason of earn our salvation. So again, can you at least grant that there can be reasons that someone can choose to do works other than trying to earn their salvation?
 
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Soyeong

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Why did Jesus say that He never knew them (Matthew 7:23)?

What is the iniquity that Jesus is referring to?

Everyone sins, so why were these folk disregarded by Jesus?

God's righteous laws teach us how to testify about God's righteousness, so when we delight in practicing righteousness in obedience to God's law, we are gaining experiential knowledge of God. In Jeremiah 9:3 and 9:6, they did not experientially know God and refuse to know Him because in 9:13, they had forsaken the Mosaic Law, while in 9:24, those who experientially know God know that He delights in practicing steadfast love, justice, and righteousness in all of the earth, so again the way to experientially know God is through delighting in practicing those and other aspects of His nature through our obedience to the Mosaic Law. In Matthew 19:17, the way to enter eternal life is by obeying the commandments, and in John 17:3, eternal life is experientially knowing God and Jesus, so obedience to the commandments is what it looks like to know Jesus. In 1 John 2:4, those who say that they know Jesus, but don't obey His commands are liars and the truth is not in them, and in 1 John 3:4, sin is the transgression of God's law and those who continue to practice sin have neither seen nor known him. In Matthew 7:23, Jesus said that he would tell those who are workers of lawlessness to depart form him because he never knew them, so again testifying God's nature through our obedience to the Mosaic Law is the way to experientially know Jesus, who is the exact expression of God's nature (Hebrews 1:3).
 
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Guojing

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No. What I said would be self-contradictory only if I also said that the only reason to do good works was to earn our salvation, however, I have not said that, and in fact, God never commanded good works as a means of earning our salvation. If there can be reasons for why we can choose to do good works other than trying to earn our salvation, then doing good works can be necessary for salvation for one of those reasons, but not for the reason of earn our salvation. So again, can you at least grant that there can be reasons that someone can choose to do works other than trying to earn their salvation?

I already said, its necessary for rewards, but not salvation, so that is a reason I am granting you.

However, you replied with "I agree that works are necessary for rewards, but I can't agree that they aren't necessary for salvation. "

So please be clear, in your view, are works necessary for salvation?
 
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Ceallaigh

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The free grace people will point out that Mt 7:20 is addressing false ministers and teachers. The stereotypical prosperity televangelist comes to mind. Or the how to be a better you motivational guru masquerading as a minister.

And likewise continued in 7:22-23 (to paraphrase) "Lord Lord didn't I prorun around on a stage in my three thousand dollar suit making a big spectacle of healing people and casting out demons in your name (while taking in lots of fame, prestige, and zillions of dollars)?"

And Jesus says "I never knew you". Not I no longer know you, but I never ever knew you. They had never been joined to Him. He had never abided in them. There had never been a merriage.

I think this is another part of the Bible that ends up getting misunderstood and or misapplied as talking about the whole body of Christ, when it seems to obviously be singling out false or bad teachers. Just like I misapplied 1 Corentheans 3:15 to me, when it really only applies to teachers and ministers.
Why did Jesus say that He never knew them (Matthew 7:23)?

What is the iniquity that Jesus is referring to?

Everyone sins, so why were these folk disregarded by Jesus?

From what I'm seeing Matthew 7:15-23 is talking about false prophets. 15 Beware of false prophets... 22... Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name ... 23 I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!

My take is the false prophets professed to work for Him, but they really didn't of course, so Jesus didn't know them. Their practice of lawlessness (also translated as iniquity) was being false prophets.
 
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Soyeong

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I already said, its necessary for rewards, but not salvation, so that is a reason I am granting you.

However, you replied with "I agree that works are necessary for rewards, but I can't agree that they aren't necessary for salvation. "

So please be clear, in your view, are works necessary for salvation?

1.) "Works are necessary for salvation"

2.) "Words are necessary in order to earn our salvation."

I can believe 1.) while denying 2.) without contradicting myself because there is a reason that works are required for salvation that isn't in order to earn it, namely faith. The same faith by which we are saved is also expressed as choosing to do works, so we can't have one without the other. Every example of saving faith listed in Hebrews 11 is an example of someone doing works, so works are necessary for salvation insofar as they are what saving faith looks like, but our salvation is not something that can be earned even through perfect obedience, so the purpose of doing good works was never in order to earn our salvation.
 
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Guojing

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1.) "Works are necessary for salvation"

2.) "Words are necessary in order to earn our salvation."

I can believe 1.) while denying 2.) without contradicting myself because there is a reason that works are required for salvation that isn't in order to earn it, namely faith. The same faith by which we are saved is also expressed as choosing to do works, so we can't have one without the other. Every example of saving faith listed in Hebrews 11 is an example of someone doing works, so works are necessary for salvation insofar as they are what saving faith looks like, but our salvation is not something that can be earned even through perfect obedience, so the purpose of doing good works was never in order to earn our salvation.

Alright, what you are really saying is what I have summed up for MMXX earlier

Works are necessary for salvation, but not sufficient.

Is that the right conclusion?
 
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Ceallaigh

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1.) "Works are necessary for salvation"

2.) "Words are necessary in order to earn our salvation."

I can believe 1.) while denying 2.) without contradicting myself because there is a reason that works are required for salvation that isn't in order to earn it, namely faith. The same faith by which we are saved is also expressed as choosing to do works, so we can't have one without the other. Every example of saving faith listed in Hebrews 11 is an example of someone doing works, so works are necessary for salvation insofar as they are what saving faith looks like, but our salvation is not something that can be earned even through perfect obedience, so the purpose of doing good works was never in order to earn our salvation.

Hebrews 11 starts out: Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. 2 For by it the elders obtained a good testimony. 3 By faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that the things which are seen were not made of things which are visible.

I don't see anything about salvation in that preamble. I'm not so sure James was talking about being saved vs unsaved either.
 
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klutedavid

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From what I'm seeing Matthew 7:15-23 is talking about false prophets. 15 Beware of false prophets... 22... Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name ... 23 I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!

My take is the false prophets professed to work for Him, but they really didn't of course, so Jesus didn't know them. Their practice of lawlessness (also translated as iniquity) was being false prophets.
My take is even simpler than yours. Those people that used the name of the Lord, performed the same ministry as the apostles, in the name of the Lord. But it appears that they did not really believe in Jesus, otherwise Jesus would have known them obviously.

Everyone sins and no one is any better than anyone else, in God's eyes. So the iniquity or lawlessness that they practiced, was certainly not love from a pure heart. Anything that is not love towards others must be sin.
 
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klutedavid

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God's righteous laws teach us how to testify about God's righteousness, so when we delight in practicing righteousness in obedience to God's law, we are gaining experiential knowledge of God. In Jeremiah 9:3 and 9:6, they did not experientially know God and refuse to know Him because in 9:13, they had forsaken the Mosaic Law, while in 9:24, those who experientially know God know that He delights in practicing steadfast love, justice, and righteousness in all of the earth, so again the way to experientially know God is through delighting in practicing those and other aspects of His nature through our obedience to the Mosaic Law. In Matthew 19:17, the way to enter eternal life is by obeying the commandments, and in John 17:3, eternal life is experientially knowing God and Jesus, so obedience to the commandments is what it looks like to know Jesus. In 1 John 2:4, those who say that they know Jesus, but don't obey His commands are liars and the truth is not in them, and in 1 John 3:4, sin is the transgression of God's law and those who continue to practice sin have neither seen nor known him. In Matthew 7:23, Jesus said that he would tell those who are workers of lawlessness to depart form him because he never knew them, so again testifying God's nature through our obedience to the Mosaic Law is the way to experientially know Jesus, who is the exact expression of God's nature (Hebrews 1:3).

Galatians 3:12
However, the Law is not of faith.
 
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Ceallaigh

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My take is even simpler than yours. Those people that used the name of the Lord, performed the same ministry as the apostles, in the name of the Lord. But it appears that they did not really believe in Jesus, otherwise Jesus would have known them obviously.

Everyone sins and no one is any better than anyone else, in God's eyes. So the iniquity or lawlessness that they practiced, was certainly not love from a pure heart. Anything that is not love towards others must be sin.

Even our righteousness is as filthy rags in the sight of God. No matter how obedient and righteous I am, I would be a filthy sinful mess in the sight of God, without the cleansing blood of Jesus. When the Father looks at me, He sees me as pure as snow, without a single blemish.
 
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Ceallaigh

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What I like about the idea of justification through faith alone and once saved always saved, is that the only motivation I have now to obey, seek righteousness, love and help others, do works; is purely out of love and respect for my Lord. Wanting to please Him.

That's what makes His yoke easy and His burden light.

My favorite kind of work to do is voluntary work where I don't have to do it and I'm not earning anything.

If they want to reward me with pizza and soda, that's fine, but that's not why I'm doing it.
 
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Neogaia777

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Hebrews 10 states

[26] For if we sin wilfully after having the knowledge of the truth, there is now left no sacrifice for sins, [27] But a certain dreadful expectation of judgment, and the rage of a fire which shall consume the adversaries. [28] A man making void the law of Moses, dieth without any mercy under two or three witnesses: [29] How much more, do you think he deserveth worse punishments, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath esteemed the blood of the testament unclean, by which he was sanctified, and hath offered an affront to the Spirit of grace?

We do not take sin lightly or attempt to claim imputed righteousness, but we are called to actually be righteous. When a Christian sins, he needs to have a spirit of repentance and confess his sins. In John chapter 20, Christ gave the apostles he power to forgive sins. That is the sacrament of confession



Faith is more than mental belief. We are supposed to stop sinning when we obtain faith, if we do not, then there is only a dreadful expectation of judgement
I am not in any way at all saying we should sin or that is perfectly OK to sin or be sinning in any way, shape, or form at all, etc, "at all", etc, but would just also like to point out that, the writer of that (Paul), also talked about "two wills" in us also, etc, and that it is possible for one of those wills to not at all be wanting to sin, but that the other one does, or can, or will, etc, and it puts a whole new "spin" on the definition of sinning entirely willfully or intentionally or not, etc...

And/or/but the real way to stop sinning altogether, is (it would seem) is for the one will that wills not to sin at all, to be made very much more stronger than the other will that does want to sin, and does sin often, etc...

And/or also and because, etc, cause this is also the tricky part also, etc, is that it cannot be self-will at all, etc, but has to be entirely God or God's will in you, etc, and all too many of us always resort to self-will in order to make the will that does not want to sin, overcome, or be stronger or better, etc, but the deception is that it is actually that self-will that is actually the will that is actually sinful, and actually wants to sin in actuality, etc, willfully, etc, which is why it is always so very "hard" when it/that (overcoming sin) is trying to be done by us that way (the way I just described, etc), the yoke seems very heavy and not light, etc, and it is heavy because that is not ever the truly right or truly successful way to ever do it ever, etc...

I mean, just think about it, your trying to make the will that does not want to sin stronger, only by only feeding the will that does want to sin actually stronger, etc, and just how do you think we're ever going to win or ever truly succeed that way, etc...?

But, yes, we are not supposed to be out to be sinning purposely or purposefully or quote/unquote "willfully" and intentionally, etc, however you want to define those things or see those terms, etc...

Most of us are just not going about it in the right kind of way at all though, and are only actually only going about it in a way that can never ever truly ever succeed, etc, and actually just makes things much much worse only, etc...

And, I'm still working on how to be truly successful and truly succeed, and succeed all the way and 100% totally and completely I mean, etc, but I see clear enough now I think to have seen or know this much thus far I think, etc...

I'll let you know how it is, or where it goes from here, etc, OK...

God Bless!
 
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