Does faith justify? (I have an answer, but would like input.

boughtwithaprice · Jan 6, 2021

Bible Highlighter said:
The Saturday Sabbath command was in effect before the cross. But Colossians 2:14 says that Christ nailed to the cross those ordinances that were against us. Colossians 2:16 (Which is the context of Colossians 2:14) mentions how we are not to let others judge us according to Sabbath days (Which would naturally incude the Saturday Sabbath because it would be among the list of Sabbaths). Any Sabbath keeping we read about after the cross was merely for evangelistic purposes and it was not as a result of keeping God's 4th commandment. Hebrews 7:12 says the Law has changed. So I am 100% for keeping God's commands. Revelation 22:14-15 is one of my favorite passages. I believe we must keep God's laws as a part of being in God's kingdom. But which laws? I believe this to be predominatly the New Covenant laws and not the Old Covenant laws. For Paul says, “Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.” (Galatians 5:4). I believe Paul was referring to the Old Law and not the New Law. For a New Covenant Law says for us to believe in Jesus (1 John 3:23). Surely Paul was not talking about 1 John 3:23 in Galatians 5:4.

The Lord Himself says in Matthew 7:21
Not every one that saith to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven: but he that doth the will of my Father who is in heaven, he shall enter into the kingdom of heaven.

We can see that the Lord means faith is more than intellectual ascent.

He also says, in John's Gospel

[51] I am the living bread which came down from heaven. [52] If any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever; and the bread that I will give, is my flesh, for the life of the world. [53] The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying: How can this man give us his flesh to eat? [54] Then Jesus said to them: Amen, amen I say unto you: Except you eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, you shall not have life in you. [55] He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath everlasting life: and I will raise him up in the last day.

[54] "Eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood": To receive the body and blood of Christ, is a divine precept, insinuated in this text; which the faithful fulfil, though they receive but in one kind; because in one kind they receive both body and blood, which cannot be separated from each other. Hence, life eternal is here promised to the worthy receiving, though but in one kind. Ver. 52. If any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever; and the bread that I will give, is my flesh for the life of the world. Ver. 58. He that eateth me, the same also shall live by me. Ver. 59. He that eateth this bread, shall live for ever.

[56] For my flesh is meat indeed: and my blood is drink indeed. [57] He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, abideth in me, and I in him. [58] As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father; so he that eateth me, the same also shall live by me. [59] This is the bread that came down from heaven. Not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead. He that eateth this bread, shall live for ever. [60] These things he said, teaching in the synagogue, in Capharnaum.

[61] Many therefore of his disciples, hearing it, said: This saying is hard, and who can hear it? [62] But Jesus, knowing in himself, that his disciples murmured at this, said to them: Doth this scandalize you? [63] If then you shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before? [64] It is the spirit that quickeneth: the flesh profiteth nothing. The words that I have spoken to you, are spirit and life. [65] But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning, who they were that did not believe, and who he was, that would betray him.

[63] "If then you shall see": Christ by mentioning his ascension, by this instance of his power and divinity, would confirm the truth of what he had before asserted; and at the same time correct their gross apprehension of eating his flesh, and drinking his blood, in a vulgar and carnal manner, by letting them know he should take his whole body living with him to heaven; and consequently not suffer it to be as they supposed, divided, mangled, and consumed upon earth.

[64] "The flesh profiteth nothing": Dead flesh separated from the spirit, in the gross manner they supposed they were to eat his flesh, would profit nothing. Neither doth man's flesh, that is to say, man's natural and carnal apprehension, (which refuses to be subject to the spirit, and words of Christ,) profit any thing. But it would be the height of blasphemy, to say the living flesh of Christ (which we receive in the blessed sacrament, with his spirit, that is, with his soul and divinity) profiteth nothing. For if Christ's flesh had profited us nothing, he would never have taken flesh for us, nor died in the flesh for us.

[64] "Are spirit and life": By proposing to you a heavenly sacrament, in which you shall receive, in a wonderful manner, spirit, grace, and life, in its very fountain.

[66] And he said: Therefore did I say to you, that no man can come to me, unless it be given him by my Father. [67] After this many of his disciples went back; and walked no more with him. [68] Then Jesus said to the twelve: Will you also go away? [69] And Simon Peter answered him: Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life. [70] And we have believed and have known, that thou art the Christ, the Son of God.

You should consider the Catholic faith. It has been preached for 2000 years, and is the only church that authentically adheres to all of Christ's teachings. Some of doing the will of the Father is participating in the sacraments of His church

Bible Highlighter · Jan 6, 2021

boughtwithaprice said:
The Lord Himself says in Matthew 7:21
Not every one that saith to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven: but he that doth the will of my Father who is in heaven, he shall enter into the kingdom of heaven.

We can see that the Lord means faith is more than intellectual ascent.

He also says, in John's Gospel

[51] I am the living bread which came down from heaven. [52] If any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever; and the bread that I will give, is my flesh, for the life of the world. [53] The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying: How can this man give us his flesh to eat? [54] Then Jesus said to them: Amen, amen I say unto you: Except you eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, you shall not have life in you. [55] He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath everlasting life: and I will raise him up in the last day.

[54] "Eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood": To receive the body and blood of Christ, is a divine precept, insinuated in this text; which the faithful fulfil, though they receive but in one kind; because in one kind they receive both body and blood, which cannot be separated from each other. Hence, life eternal is here promised to the worthy receiving, though but in one kind. Ver. 52. If any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever; and the bread that I will give, is my flesh for the life of the world. Ver. 58. He that eateth me, the same also shall live by me. Ver. 59. He that eateth this bread, shall live for ever.

[56] For my flesh is meat indeed: and my blood is drink indeed. [57] He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, abideth in me, and I in him. [58] As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father; so he that eateth me, the same also shall live by me. [59] This is the bread that came down from heaven. Not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead. He that eateth this bread, shall live for ever. [60] These things he said, teaching in the synagogue, in Capharnaum.

[61] Many therefore of his disciples, hearing it, said: This saying is hard, and who can hear it? [62] But Jesus, knowing in himself, that his disciples murmured at this, said to them: Doth this scandalize you? [63] If then you shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before? [64] It is the spirit that quickeneth: the flesh profiteth nothing. The words that I have spoken to you, are spirit and life. [65] But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning, who they were that did not believe, and who he was, that would betray him.

[63] "If then you shall see": Christ by mentioning his ascension, by this instance of his power and divinity, would confirm the truth of what he had before asserted; and at the same time correct their gross apprehension of eating his flesh, and drinking his blood, in a vulgar and carnal manner, by letting them know he should take his whole body living with him to heaven; and consequently not suffer it to be as they supposed, divided, mangled, and consumed upon earth.

[64] "The flesh profiteth nothing": Dead flesh separated from the spirit, in the gross manner they supposed they were to eat his flesh, would profit nothing. Neither doth man's flesh, that is to say, man's natural and carnal apprehension, (which refuses to be subject to the spirit, and words of Christ,) profit any thing. But it would be the height of blasphemy, to say the living flesh of Christ (which we receive in the blessed sacrament, with his spirit, that is, with his soul and divinity) profiteth nothing. For if Christ's flesh had profited us nothing, he would never have taken flesh for us, nor died in the flesh for us.

[64] "Are spirit and life": By proposing to you a heavenly sacrament, in which you shall receive, in a wonderful manner, spirit, grace, and life, in its very fountain.

[66] And he said: Therefore did I say to you, that no man can come to me, unless it be given him by my Father. [67] After this many of his disciples went back; and walked no more with him. [68] Then Jesus said to the twelve: Will you also go away? [69] And Simon Peter answered him: Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life. [70] And we have believed and have known, that thou art the Christ, the Son of God.

You should consider the Catholic faith. It has been preached for 2000 years, and is the only church that authentically adheres to all of Christ's teachings. Some of doing the will of the Father is participating in the sacraments of His church

I could write a book about all the biblical things wrong with the Catholic Church. So I am not even remotely interested. I argued against one of the Catholic beliefs even as a young child long before I accepted Jesus as my Savior. But I do agree that we need both grace through faith and Sanctification as a part of salvation. But we don’t agree on what we must believe and do in regards to the faith exactly. I believe the Bible is my sole authority alone.

Bible Highlighter · Jan 6, 2021

Yarddog said:
The Jews did not carry out the execution but they passed the sentence.

Now when morning was come, all the chief priests and the elders of the people took counsel against Jesus to put him to death:
Matthew:27:1
and they bound him, and led him away, and delivered him up to Pilate the governor.
Matthew:27:2

When therefore they were gathered together, Pilate said unto them, Whom will ye that I release unto you? Barabbas, or Jesus who is called Christ?
Matthew:27:17
For he knew that for envy they had delivered him up.
Matthew:27:18
And while he was sitting on the judgment-seat, his wife sent unto him, saying, Have thou nothing to do with that righteous man; for I have suffered many things this day in a dream because of him.
Matthew:27:19
Now the chief priests and the elders persuaded the multitudes that they should ask for Barabbas,and destroy Jesus.
Matthew:27:20
But the governor answered and said unto them, Which of the two will ye that I release unto you? And they said, Barabbas.
Matthew:27:21
Pilate saith unto them, What then shall I do unto Jesus who is called Christ? They all say, Let him be crucified.
Matthew:27:22
So when Pilate saw that he prevailed nothing, but rather that a tumult was arising, he took water, and washed his hands before the multitude, saying, I am innocent of the blood of this righteous man; see ye to it.
Matthew:27:24
And all the people answered and said, His blood be on us, and on our children.
Matthew:27:25

Yes, the Jews killed Jesus.

I was only repeating basically what you said.

You said, “The Jews killed God's Shepherd...”

klutedavid · Jan 6, 2021

Bible Highlighter said:
I could write a book about all the biblical things wrong with the Catholic Church. So I am not even remotely interested. I argued against one of the Catholic beliefs even as a young child long before I accepted Jesus as my Savior. But I do agree that we need both grace through faith and Sanctification as a part of salvation. But we don’t agree on what we must believe and do in regards to the faith exactly. I believe the Bible is my sole authority alone.

So you cannot accept indulgences or inquisitions, then you are apostate?

Bible Highlighter · Jan 6, 2021

MMXX said:
"Mortal sin, also called cardinal sin, in Roman Catholic theology, the gravest of sins, representing a deliberate turning away from God and destroying charity (love) in the heart of the sinner. A mortal sin is defined as a grave action that is committed in full knowledge of its gravity and with the full consent of the sinner’s will. Such a sin cuts the sinner off from God’s sanctifying grace until it is repented, usually in confession with a priest. A person who dies unrepentant of the commission of mortal sin is believed to descend immediately into hell, where they suffer the separation from God that they chose in life. Although the Roman Catholic Church does not provide an exhaustive list of mortal sins, breaking the Ten Commandments, suicide, induced abortion, masturbation, rape, and divorce are well-known examples. Additionally, some mortal sins are considered so severe that the church punishes them with excommunication. These include apostasy (deliberate renunciation of the faith) and the desecration of the elements of the Eucharist. Mortal sins are contrasted with venial sins, which usually involve a less serious action and are committed with less self-awareness of wrongdoing. While a venial sin weakens the sinner’s union with God, it is not a deliberate turning away from him and so does not wholly block the inflow of sanctifying grace. See also seven deadly sins."
mortal sin | Definition & Examples

As I said, I don’t subscribe to their views on what constitutes “mortal sin.” I only look to the Bible for that answer. I don’t believe the the 4th commandment is a binding command today under the New Covenant. I actually cannot read fully religious writings that are not the Bible without it making my stomach turn.

Bible Highlighter · Jan 6, 2021

klutedavid said:
So you cannot accept indulgences or inquisitions, then you are apostate?

Glad to hear they would say that. I am not Catholic. Look at the short bio in each of my posts. It says I am Non-Denom.

Yarddog · Jan 6, 2021

Bible Highlighter said:
I was only repeating basically what you said.

You said, “The Jews killed God's Shepherd...”

You didn't repeat what I wrote. I wrote, "The Jews killed God's Shepherd because they didn't follow God's Spirit but "thought" they followed the scriptures.

Bible Highlighter · Jan 6, 2021

Yarddog said:
You didn't repeat what I wrote. I wrote, "The Jews killed God's Shepherd because they didn't follow God's Spirit but "thought" they followed the scriptures.

I said I basically repeated what you wrote because Jesus is God’s shepherd.

Bible Highlighter · Jan 6, 2021

Okay. Let’s get back to the topic of the thread people. This is not about me but is about what the Scriptures say on this topic.

In any event, may God bless you all.

boughtwithaprice · Jan 6, 2021

Bible Highlighter said:
I could write a book about all the biblical things wrong with the Catholic Church. So I am not even remotely interested. I argued against one of the Catholic beliefs even as a young child long before I accepted Jesus as my Savior. But I do agree that we need both grace through faith and Sanctification as a part of salvation. But we don’t agree on what we must believe and do in regards to the faith exactly. I believe the Bible is my sole authority alone.

How did you come to your conclusions? The Bible itself says its not complete and of no private interpretation. 2Peter 1:20, and John 21:25 states that there is much more to the faith than what is contained in the scripture. Have you studied Church history?

I agree that sanctifying grace is required for salvation, and it is of faith not of works, but Christ Himself says that those with faith will also have works, and there will be those that claim to have faith, yet not have works. The epistle of James says that faith is dead.

There is no biblical argument against the Catholic faith. I would be interested to hear what you think the arguments are. Which belief did you argue against as a child?

Yarddog · Jan 6, 2021

Bible Highlighter said:
I said I basically repeated what you wrote unless you deny that Jesus is God’s shepherd.

It seems you want to antagonize. Taking out key words which change the context is not "basically" repeating what I wrote and how that changed to denying Jesus is God's shepherd is unimaginable.

klutedavid · Jan 6, 2021

boughtwithaprice said:
How did you come to your conclusions? The Bible itself says its not complete and of no private interpretation. 2Peter 1:20, and John 21:25 states that there is much more to the faith than what is contained in the scripture. Have you studied Church history?

I agree that sanctifying grace is required for salvation, and it is of faith not of works, but Christ Himself says that those with faith will also have works, and there will be those that claim to have faith, yet not have works. The epistle of James says that faith is dead.

There is no biblical argument against the Catholic faith. I would be interested to hear what you think the arguments are. Which belief did you argue against as a child?

Your argument is beyond the OP which concerns justification by faith.

Citizen of the Kingdom · Jan 6, 2021

Justification by works is carried out thru the divine life, only. That only can be seen as righteousness. The tree of life must bring forth fruit. The first is the cause and the second the effect, therefore the outcome and proof of the other. It’s the expression of the life of faith.

The term justification is in the accomplished work of Christ, while to be justified to carry on His work within is His righteousness. Sanctification, as an ongoing process, is for our Christian living and is seen in His righteousness when we act from that place. Which can also be very revealing to others concerning their faith.

So righteousness, justification, and faith are a product (of saving grace) while sanctification is a process (of grace upon grace) or faith upon faith, or glory upon glory.

boughtwithaprice · Jan 6, 2021

klutedavid said:
Your argument is beyond the OP which concerns justification by faith.

interesting reply. I was discussing the OP in light of the words of Christ. Do you care to elaborate?

boughtwithaprice · Jan 6, 2021

Hebrews 10 states

[26] For if we sin wilfully after having the knowledge of the truth, there is now left no sacrifice for sins, [27] But a certain dreadful expectation of judgment, and the rage of a fire which shall consume the adversaries. [28] A man making void the law of Moses, dieth without any mercy under two or three witnesses: [29] How much more, do you think he deserveth worse punishments, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath esteemed the blood of the testament unclean, by which he was sanctified, and hath offered an affront to the Spirit of grace?

We do not take sin lightly or attempt to claim imputed righteousness, but we are called to actually be righteous. When a Christian sins, he needs to have a spirit of repentance and confess his sins. In John chapter 20, Christ gave the apostles he power to forgive sins. That is the sacrament of confession

Faith is more than mental belief. We are supposed to stop sinning when we obtain faith, if we do not, then there is only a dreadful expectation of judgement

Bible Highlighter · Jan 6, 2021

Yarddog said:
It seems you want to antagonize. Taking out key words which change the context is not "basically" repeating what I wrote and how that changed to denying Jesus is God's shepherd is unimaginable.

Sorry about that.
I re-read what I wrote and realized I could have said that in a more loving way.
Please accept my humble apologies.
I re-edited my post to be nicer.
Anyways, let’s please get back to the topic of the thread.

May God’s love shine upon you;
And good evening to you in the Lord.

Bible Highlighter · Jan 6, 2021

boughtwithaprice said:
How did you come to your conclusions? The Bible itself says its not complete and of no private interpretation. 2Peter 1:20, and John 21:25 states that there is much more to the faith than what is contained in the scripture. Have you studied Church history?

I agree that sanctifying grace is required for salvation, and it is of faith not of works, but Christ Himself says that those with faith will also have works, and there will be those that claim to have faith, yet not have works. The epistle of James says that faith is dead.

There is no biblical argument against the Catholic faith. I would be interested to hear what you think the arguments are. Which belief did you argue against as a child?

This is not really the topic of the thread.
But if you are really open to why I believe Catholicism is unbiblical, I could PM you about it. If you are not open, there is no point in my revealing such a thing to you, friend. If you choose to accept my terms, just realize my explanation with Scripture would be very lengthy.

Ceallaigh · Jan 6, 2021

boughtwithaprice said:
interesting reply. I was discussing the OP in light of the words of Christ. Do you care to elaborate?

This thread is getting derailed by apologetics for Roman Catholicism and Seventh Day Adventism.

Ceallaigh · Jan 6, 2021

Bible Highlighter said:
As I said, I don’t subscribe to their views on what constitutes “mortal sin.” I only look to the Bible for that answer. I don’t believe the the 4th commandment is a binding command today under the New Covenant. I actually cannot read fully religious writings that are not the Bible without it making my stomach turn.

I apologize. You laid out what you're calling mortal sin in a reply to me on page 4 and I must have missed it.

Bible Highlighter said:
There are technically three kinds of sins.

1. Mortal sin - These are any kind of sins that leads to spiritual death (like murder, hate, adultery, theft, idolatry, etc.) unless one confesses such sins to the Lord Jesus Christ and they seek to battle in overcoming these kinds of sins in this life. The parable prodigal son in Luke 15:11-32, and James 5:19-20 shows that a believer can go from spiritual life, to spiritual death, and then back to spiritual life again. In other words, a believer can stumble into a life of sin temporarily, and be dead spiritually for a time, and then they can later come back to the faith and salvation again by rededicating their life back to Christ.
2. Non-mortal sin - Any sins that leads to punishment in this earthly life, but does not necessarily mean one is abiding in spiritual death. Examples would be the first two sins mentioned in Matthew 5:22, 1 Peter 3:21, 1 John 5:16-17, etc.
3. Unforgivable sins - These would be sins that are not ever forgivable. These would be like speaking bad words against the Holy Spirit after being born again spiritually, worshiping the beast, committing suicide and staying dead, rejecting Jesus Christ as one's Savior after one is been born again spiritually.

I can relate to 1. I think. I had become backslidden, detached, complacent, stagnant, lukewarm - I'm not sure how to put it. I didn't become apostate. I didn't go off to a distant country to engage in wild living. It was more like stayed in my room in my Father's house with the door shut.

If someone had had me under surveillance, on the surface they probably wouldn't see any difference. If someone reviewed my internet history, they'd see that I went from random browsing and watching random youtube videos, to a bunch of "religious stuff". Like it says of the prodigal son, I came to my senses. And did a lot of apologizing and repenting.

But was I unsaved during that period? I'm not sure. I suppose it's a question of how much I play a part in my salvation and how much God plays a part. Did I come to my senses on my own, or was it that the Holy Spirit decided this had gone on long enough and yanked my blinders off? Was I spiritually dead, or just being spiritually lazy?

Ceallaigh · Jan 6, 2021

Bible Highlighter said:
I am aware of John MacArthur's teaching for a long time now.
John MacArthur (A Calvinist) teaches that a believer can sin and still be saved.

Some Calvinists will boast in "Lordship Salvation" that is promoted by John MacArthur, but I believe this is a Trojan horse. John MacArthur does not really believe we must live holy exactly (as a part of salvation).

John MacArthur also teaches that a believer can commit suicide and still be saved.

He says, I quote: "At the trial, MacArthur, 45, is seeking to clarify his church’s teaching on suicide. “It’s not only a sin, it’s illegal,” he says. “But we teach that even if a believer takes his own life, the Lord will still receive him into His presence.”

Source:
Fundamentalist Clergymen Face Charges of 'Malpractice' When a Parishioner Turns to Suicide

John MacArthur says that a person can take the mark of the beast and they can still be saved afterwards. Listen to this audio clip by him here:

https://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/audio/macarthur-take-mark.mp3

John MacArthur says, ".. sin does not result in spiritual death for the believer ... (The MacArthur Study Bible, p. 1927, comment on James 1:15)"

Also, check out this video on John MacArthur teaching that we can sin and still be saved: (Important Note: Turn down sound at the beginning of the video just in case you may have sensitive hearing like me):

Leaving MacArthur out of it, member coronawatching said: "The Bible tells us to work out our salvation with fear and trembling. Are "faith only, not works" adherents trying to ease their consciences when it comes to particular sins in their lives?"

To which I replied, "I believe the concern of the Free Grace people is the idea of a 50/50 salvation. 50% the blood of Jesus and 50% our works. That Jesus dying for our sins only covers half of our salvation and our works makes up the other half."

Does faith justify? (I have an answer, but would like input.

Does faith justify?

Yes

No

I don't know.

Other (Please explain)

Legend

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

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Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

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Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

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Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

May God be with you and bless you.

May God be with you and bless you.

May God be with you and bless you.

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