EO and Universalism

Jesse Dornfeld

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Do you honestly think I would make the statements I make without doing extensive research into the background of what is being discussed? Here are the accepted canons of the Council. Find the word "Apkatastasis" in any of them.

1. If anyone will not confess that the Father, Son and holy Spirit have one nature or substance, that they have one power and authority, that there is a consubstantial Trinity, one Deity to be adored in three subsistences or persons: let him be anathema. There is only one God and Father, from whom all things come, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things are, and one holy Spirit, in whom all things are.

2. If anyone will not confess that the Word of God has two nativities, that which is before all ages from the Father, outside time and without a body, and secondly that nativity of these latter days when the Word of God came down from the heavens and was made flesh of holy and glorious Mary, mother of God and ever-virgin, and was born from her: let him be anathema.

3. If anyone declares that the [Word] of God who works miracles is not identical with the Christ who suffered, or alleges that God the Word was with the Christ who was born of woman, or was in him in the way that one might be in another, but that our lord Jesus Christ was not one and the same, the Word of God incarnate and made man, and that the miracles and the sufferings which he voluntarily underwent in the flesh were not of the same person: let him be anathema.

4. If anyone declares that it was only in respect of grace, or of principle of action, or of dignity or in respect of equality of honour, or in respect of authority, or of some relation, or of some affection or power that there was a unity made between the Word of God and the man, or if anyone alleges that it is in respect of good will, as if God the Word was pleased with the man, because he was well and properly disposed to God, as Theodore claims in his madness; or if anyone says that this union is only a sort of synonymity, as the Nestorians allege, who call the Word of God Jesus and Christ, and even designate the human separately by the names "Christ" and "Son", discussing quite obviously two different persons, and only pretending to speak of one person and one Christ when the reference is to his title, honour, dignity or adoration; finally if anyone does not accept the teaching of the holy fathers that the union occurred of the Word of God with human flesh which is possessed by a rational and intellectual soul, and that this union is by synthesis or by person, and that therefore there is only one person, namely the lord Jesus Christ, one member of the holy Trinity: let him be anathema. The notion of "union" can be understood in many different ways. The supporters of the wickedness of Apollinarius and Eutyches have asserted that the union is produced by a confusing of the uniting elements, as they advocate the disappearance of the elements that unite. Those who follow Theodore and Nestorius, rejoicing in the division, have brought in a union which is only by affection. The holy church of God, rejecting the wickedness of both sorts of heresy, states her belief in a union between the Word of God and human flesh which is by synthesis, that is by a union of subsistence. In the mystery of Christ the union of synthesis not only conserves without confusing the elements that come together but also allows no division.

5. If anyone understands by the single subsistence of our lord Jesus Christ that it covers the meaning of many subsistences, and by this argument tries to introduce into the mystery of Christ two subsistences or two persons, and having brought in two persons then talks of one person only in respect of dignity, honour or adoration, as both Theodore and Nestorius have written in their madness; if anyone falsely represents the holy synod of Chalcedon, making out that it accepted this heretical view by its terminology of "one subsistence", and if he does not acknowledge that the Word of God is united with human flesh by subsistence, and that on account of this there is only one subsistence or one person, and that the holy synod of Chalcedon thus made a formal statement of belief in the single subsistence of our lord Jesus Christ: let him be anathema. There has been no addition of person or subsistence to the holy Trinity even after one of its members, God the Word, becoming human flesh.
6. If anyone declares that it can be only inexactly and not truly said that the holy and glorious ever-virgin Mary is the mother of God, or says that she is so only in some relative way, considering that she bore a mere man and that God the Word was not made into human flesh in her, holding rather that the nativity of a man from her was referred, as they say, to God the Word as he was with the man who came into being; if anyone misrepresents the holy synod of Chalcedon, alleging that it claimed that the virgin was the mother of God only according to that heretical understanding which the blasphemous Theodore put forward; or if anyone says that she is the mother of a man or the Christ-bearer, that is the mother of Christ, suggesting that Christ is not God; and does not formally confess that she is properly and truly the mother of God, because he who before all ages was born of the Father, God the Word, has been made into human flesh in these latter days and has been born to her, and it was in this religious understanding that the holy synod of Chalcedon formally stated its belief that she was the mother of God: let him be anathema.

7. If anyone, when speaking about the two natures, does not confess a belief in our one lord Jesus Christ, understood in both his divinity and his humanity, so as by this to signify a difference of natures of which an ineffable union has been made without confusion, in which neither the nature of the Word was changed into the nature of human flesh, nor was the nature of human flesh changed into that of the Word (each remained what it was by nature, even after the union, as this had been made in respect of subsistence); and if anyone understands the two natures in the mystery of Christ in the sense of a division into parts, or if he expresses his belief in the plural natures in the same lord Jesus Christ, God the Word made flesh, but does not consider the difference of those natures, of which he is composed, to be only in the onlooker's mind, a difference which is not compromised by the union (for he is one from both and the two exist through the one) but uses the plurality to suggest that each nature is possessed separately and has a subsistence of its own: let him be anathema.

8. If anyone confesses a belief that a union has been made out of the two natures divinity and humanity, or speaks about the one nature of God the Word made flesh, but does not understand these things according to what the fathers have taught, namely that from the divine and human natures a union was made according to subsistence, and that one Christ was formed, and from these expressions tries to introduce one nature or substance made of the deity and human flesh of Christ: let him be anathema. In saying that it was in respect of subsistence that the only-begotten God the Word was united, we are not alleging that there was a confusion made of each of the natures into one another, but rather that each of the two remained what it was, and in this way we understand that the Word was united to human flesh. So there is only one Christ, God and man, the same being consubstantial with the Father in respect of his divinity, and also consubstantial with us in respect of our humanity. Both those who divide or split up the mystery of the divine dispensation of Christ and those who introduce into that mystery some confusion are equally rejected and anathematized by the church of God.
9. If anyone says that Christ is to be worshipped in his two natures, and by that wishes to introduce two adorations, a separate one for God the Word and another for the man; or if anyone, so as to remove the human flesh or to mix up the divinity and the humanity, monstrously invents one nature or substance brought together from the two, and so worships Christ, but not by a single adoration God the Word in human flesh along with his human flesh, as has been the tradition of the church from the beginning: let him be anathema.

10. If anyone does not confess his belief that our lord Jesus Christ, who was crucified in his human flesh, is truly God and the Lord of glory and one of the members of the holy Trinity: let him be anathema.

11. If anyone does not anathematize Arius, Eunomius, Macedonius, Apollinarius Nestorius, Eutyches and Origen, as well as their heretical books, and also all other heretics who have already been condemned and anathematized by the holy, catholic and apostolic church and by the four holy synods which have already been mentioned, and also all those who have thought or now think in the same way as the aforesaid heretics and who persist in their error even to death: let him be anathema.

12. If anyone defends the heretical Theodore of Mopsuestia, who said that God the Word is one, while quite another is Christ, who was troubled by the passions of the soul and the desires of human flesh, was gradually separated from that which is inferior, and became better by his progress in good works, and could not be faulted in his way of life, and as a mere man was baptized in the name of the Father and the Son and the holy Spirit, and through this baptism received the grace of the holy Spirit and came to deserve sonship and to be adored, in the way that one adores a statue of the emperor, as if he were God the Word, and that he became after his resurrection immutable in his thoughts and entirely without sin. Furthermore this heretical Theodore claimed that the union of God the Word to Christ is rather like that which, according to the teaching of the Apostle, is between a man and his wife: The two shall become one. Among innumerable other blasphemies he dared to allege that, when after his resurrection the Lord breathed on his disciples and said, Receive the holy Spirit, he was not truly giving them the holy Spirit, but he breathed on them only as a sign. Similarly he claimed that Thomas's profession of faith made when, after his resurrection, he touched the hands and side of the Lord, namely My Lord and my God, was not said about Christ, but that Thomas was in this way extolling God for raising up Christ and expressing his astonishment at the miracle of the resurrection. This Theodore makes a comparison which is even worse than this when, writing about the acts of the Apostles, he says that Christ was like Plato, Manichaeus, Epicurus and Marcion, alleging that just as each of these men arrived at his own teaching and then had his disciples called after him Platonists, Manichaeans, Epicureans and Marcionites, so Christ found his teaching and then had disciples who were called Christians. If anyone offers a defence for this more heretical Theodore, and his heretical books in which he throws up the aforesaid blasphemies and many other additional blasphemies against our great God and saviour Jesus Christ, and if anyone fails to anathematize him and his heretical books as well as all those who offer acceptance or defence to him, or who allege that his interpretation is correct, or who write on his behalf or on that of his heretical teachings, or who are or have been of the same way of thinking and persist until death in this error: let him be anathema.

13. If anyone defends the heretical writings of Theodoret which were composed against the true faith, against the first holy synod of Ephesus and against holy Cyril and his Twelve Chapters, and also defends what Theodoret wrote to support the heretical Theodore and Nestorius and others who think in the same way as the aforesaid Theodore and Nestorius and accept them or their heresy and if anyone, because of them, shall accuse of being heretical the doctors of the church who have stated their belief in the union according to subsistence of God the Word; and if anyone does not anathematize these heretical books and those who have thought or now think in this way, and all those who have written against the true faith or against holy Cyril and his twelve chapters, and who persist in such heresy until they die: let him be anathema.

14. If anyone defends the letter which Ibas is said to have written to Mari the Persian, which denies that God the Word, who became incarnate of Mary the holy mother of God and ever virgin, became man, but alleges that he was only a man born to her, whom it describes as a temple, as if God the Word was one and the man someone quite different; which condemns holy Cyril as if he were a heretic, when he gives the true teaching of Christians, and accuses holy Cyril of writing opinions like those of the heretical Apollinarius ;which rebukes the first holy synod of Ephesus, alleging that it condemned Nestorius without going into the matter by a formal examination; which claims that the twelve chapters of holy Cyril are heretical and opposed to the true faith; and which defends Theodore and Nestorius and their heretical teachings and books. If anyone defends the said letter and does not anathematize it and all those who offer a defence for it and allege that it or a part of it is correct, or if anyone defends those who have written or shall write in support of it or the heresies contained in it, or supports those who are bold enough to defend it or its heresies in the name of the holy fathers of the holy synod of Chalcedon, and persists in these errors until his death: let him be anathema.

Such then are the assertions we confess. We have received them from

1. holy Scripture, from
2. the teaching of the holy fathers, and from
3. the definitions about the one and the same faith made by the aforesaid four holy synods.

Moreover, condemnation has been passed by us against the heretics and their impiety, and also against those who have justified or shall justify the so-called "Three Chapters", and against those who have persisted or will persist in their own error. If anyone should attempt to hand on, or to teach by word or writing, anything contrary to what we have regulated, then if he is a bishop or somebody appointed to the clergy, in so far as he is acting contrary to what befits priests and the ecclesiastical status, let him be stripped of the rank of priest or cleric, and if he is a monk or lay person, let him be anathema.

Thank you. This has been most helpful. The question that remains for me is what is the cause for this belief? If Christ is in fact born of a virgin Mary, then simply because it is a mystery isn't "enough" to justify it as a belief. This goes for Christ's miracles and resurrection from the dead as well, so as to paint a picture of Christ's entire life pertaining to His ministry. The question for cause is that deferring to these things as mere mystery and not explicitly as an Act of God insofar as they are a work of God in the supernatural that defies our natural understanding is paramount to my inquiry here. I would also aim this same comment at @ArmyMatt so as to show a demonstration of knowing the what of the belief of the EO church and not just shooting questions from the hip.
 
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ArmyMatt

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I'm not sure I understand. Is there going to be a literal rising of the dead or not? Because if there is not, then it's just as easy to say Jesus, the Messiah, didn't literally rise from the dead but it was more symbolic. If that's the case, why be a Christian at all? It's just symbolism and nothing more.

yes, it's literal.
 
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ArmyMatt

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Here's another serious problem you have trying to pin the tail of Apokatastasis on Constantinople II:

"In 787 AD, the Seventh Ecumenical Council of the Church, (also known as the Second Council of Nicea) honored Gregory of Nyssa: Let us then, consider who were the venerable doctors and indomitable champions of the Church [including] Gregory Primate of Nyssa, who all have called the father of fathers."

If these Fathers meant to condemn Apokatastasis qua Origen, then they surely would have condemned St. Gregory Nyssa posthumously. He was quite open in his writings in this regard and it was no secret. The only person trying to wedge Universal Salvation in the side door of Constantinople II was Emperor Justinian. Justinian despized the Originists because they were causing massive civil unrest and problems in Jerusalem, thus he hated them and anything they taught. Justinian's whole raison d'etre was the restoration of the Roman Empire and the return of it to former glory. He knew he could not achieve this with a divided empire, so he set about unifying the empire under his vision.

This was the reason that Constantinople II was called, desipte Pope Vigilius' opposition to it. Vigilius had to be violently arrested and put in house arrest until he was worn down and acceded to Justinian's orders. There were riots and deaths taking place in Jerusalem of the issue of Chalcedon. Constantinople II was an attempt at unification in the empire. It failed miserably. The civil unrest continued for 80 years after Justinian died.

The whole council from the very beginning was held in a highly suspect manner, from the violence used on Pope Vigilius to the fact that Emperor Justinian was not a theologian nor a bishop and overstepped his bounds considerably by what he did. With the discovery of fraudulent manuscripts and forgeries, it is past time that this council receive the same treatment that the Robber's Council of Ephesus did. It should be scrapped and a new council to discuss Monophysitism, which would be free from meddling from an ego-driven emperor, should make a new declaration.

then you would also have to get rid of the 6th and 7th Councils (the one that called Nyssa the Father of Fathers) since that one affirms the 5th as true. you don't get to pick and choose.

to say that St Justinian wasn't a theologian just shows an ignorance of his theological writings.
 
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ArmyMatt

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Thank you. This has been most helpful. The question that remains for me is what is the cause for this belief? If Christ is in fact born of a virgin Mary, then simply because it is a mystery isn't "enough" to justify it as a belief. This goes for Christ's miracles and resurrection from the dead as well, so as to paint a picture of Christ's entire life pertaining to His ministry. The question for cause is that deferring to these things as mere mystery and not explicitly as an Act of God insofar as they are a work of God in the supernatural that defies our natural understanding is paramount to my inquiry here. I would also aim this same comment at @ArmyMatt so as to show a demonstration of knowing the what of the belief of the EO church and not just shooting questions from the hip.

what exactly do you want to know?
 
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ArmyMatt

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Do you honestly think I would make the statements I make without doing extensive research into the background of what is being discussed? Here are the accepted canons of the Council. Find the word "Apkatastasis" in any of them.

1. If anyone will not confess that the Father, Son and holy Spirit have one nature or substance, that they have one power and authority, that there is a consubstantial Trinity, one Deity to be adored in three subsistences or persons: let him be anathema. There is only one God and Father, from whom all things come, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things are, and one holy Spirit, in whom all things are.

2. If anyone will not confess that the Word of God has two nativities, that which is before all ages from the Father, outside time and without a body, and secondly that nativity of these latter days when the Word of God came down from the heavens and was made flesh of holy and glorious Mary, mother of God and ever-virgin, and was born from her: let him be anathema.

3. If anyone declares that the [Word] of God who works miracles is not identical with the Christ who suffered, or alleges that God the Word was with the Christ who was born of woman, or was in him in the way that one might be in another, but that our lord Jesus Christ was not one and the same, the Word of God incarnate and made man, and that the miracles and the sufferings which he voluntarily underwent in the flesh were not of the same person: let him be anathema.

4. If anyone declares that it was only in respect of grace, or of principle of action, or of dignity or in respect of equality of honour, or in respect of authority, or of some relation, or of some affection or power that there was a unity made between the Word of God and the man, or if anyone alleges that it is in respect of good will, as if God the Word was pleased with the man, because he was well and properly disposed to God, as Theodore claims in his madness; or if anyone says that this union is only a sort of synonymity, as the Nestorians allege, who call the Word of God Jesus and Christ, and even designate the human separately by the names "Christ" and "Son", discussing quite obviously two different persons, and only pretending to speak of one person and one Christ when the reference is to his title, honour, dignity or adoration; finally if anyone does not accept the teaching of the holy fathers that the union occurred of the Word of God with human flesh which is possessed by a rational and intellectual soul, and that this union is by synthesis or by person, and that therefore there is only one person, namely the lord Jesus Christ, one member of the holy Trinity: let him be anathema. The notion of "union" can be understood in many different ways. The supporters of the wickedness of Apollinarius and Eutyches have asserted that the union is produced by a confusing of the uniting elements, as they advocate the disappearance of the elements that unite. Those who follow Theodore and Nestorius, rejoicing in the division, have brought in a union which is only by affection. The holy church of God, rejecting the wickedness of both sorts of heresy, states her belief in a union between the Word of God and human flesh which is by synthesis, that is by a union of subsistence. In the mystery of Christ the union of synthesis not only conserves without confusing the elements that come together but also allows no division.

5. If anyone understands by the single subsistence of our lord Jesus Christ that it covers the meaning of many subsistences, and by this argument tries to introduce into the mystery of Christ two subsistences or two persons, and having brought in two persons then talks of one person only in respect of dignity, honour or adoration, as both Theodore and Nestorius have written in their madness; if anyone falsely represents the holy synod of Chalcedon, making out that it accepted this heretical view by its terminology of "one subsistence", and if he does not acknowledge that the Word of God is united with human flesh by subsistence, and that on account of this there is only one subsistence or one person, and that the holy synod of Chalcedon thus made a formal statement of belief in the single subsistence of our lord Jesus Christ: let him be anathema. There has been no addition of person or subsistence to the holy Trinity even after one of its members, God the Word, becoming human flesh.
6. If anyone declares that it can be only inexactly and not truly said that the holy and glorious ever-virgin Mary is the mother of God, or says that she is so only in some relative way, considering that she bore a mere man and that God the Word was not made into human flesh in her, holding rather that the nativity of a man from her was referred, as they say, to God the Word as he was with the man who came into being; if anyone misrepresents the holy synod of Chalcedon, alleging that it claimed that the virgin was the mother of God only according to that heretical understanding which the blasphemous Theodore put forward; or if anyone says that she is the mother of a man or the Christ-bearer, that is the mother of Christ, suggesting that Christ is not God; and does not formally confess that she is properly and truly the mother of God, because he who before all ages was born of the Father, God the Word, has been made into human flesh in these latter days and has been born to her, and it was in this religious understanding that the holy synod of Chalcedon formally stated its belief that she was the mother of God: let him be anathema.

7. If anyone, when speaking about the two natures, does not confess a belief in our one lord Jesus Christ, understood in both his divinity and his humanity, so as by this to signify a difference of natures of which an ineffable union has been made without confusion, in which neither the nature of the Word was changed into the nature of human flesh, nor was the nature of human flesh changed into that of the Word (each remained what it was by nature, even after the union, as this had been made in respect of subsistence); and if anyone understands the two natures in the mystery of Christ in the sense of a division into parts, or if he expresses his belief in the plural natures in the same lord Jesus Christ, God the Word made flesh, but does not consider the difference of those natures, of which he is composed, to be only in the onlooker's mind, a difference which is not compromised by the union (for he is one from both and the two exist through the one) but uses the plurality to suggest that each nature is possessed separately and has a subsistence of its own: let him be anathema.

8. If anyone confesses a belief that a union has been made out of the two natures divinity and humanity, or speaks about the one nature of God the Word made flesh, but does not understand these things according to what the fathers have taught, namely that from the divine and human natures a union was made according to subsistence, and that one Christ was formed, and from these expressions tries to introduce one nature or substance made of the deity and human flesh of Christ: let him be anathema. In saying that it was in respect of subsistence that the only-begotten God the Word was united, we are not alleging that there was a confusion made of each of the natures into one another, but rather that each of the two remained what it was, and in this way we understand that the Word was united to human flesh. So there is only one Christ, God and man, the same being consubstantial with the Father in respect of his divinity, and also consubstantial with us in respect of our humanity. Both those who divide or split up the mystery of the divine dispensation of Christ and those who introduce into that mystery some confusion are equally rejected and anathematized by the church of God.
9. If anyone says that Christ is to be worshipped in his two natures, and by that wishes to introduce two adorations, a separate one for God the Word and another for the man; or if anyone, so as to remove the human flesh or to mix up the divinity and the humanity, monstrously invents one nature or substance brought together from the two, and so worships Christ, but not by a single adoration God the Word in human flesh along with his human flesh, as has been the tradition of the church from the beginning: let him be anathema.

10. If anyone does not confess his belief that our lord Jesus Christ, who was crucified in his human flesh, is truly God and the Lord of glory and one of the members of the holy Trinity: let him be anathema.

11. If anyone does not anathematize Arius, Eunomius, Macedonius, Apollinarius Nestorius, Eutyches and Origen, as well as their heretical books, and also all other heretics who have already been condemned and anathematized by the holy, catholic and apostolic church and by the four holy synods which have already been mentioned, and also all those who have thought or now think in the same way as the aforesaid heretics and who persist in their error even to death: let him be anathema.

12. If anyone defends the heretical Theodore of Mopsuestia, who said that God the Word is one, while quite another is Christ, who was troubled by the passions of the soul and the desires of human flesh, was gradually separated from that which is inferior, and became better by his progress in good works, and could not be faulted in his way of life, and as a mere man was baptized in the name of the Father and the Son and the holy Spirit, and through this baptism received the grace of the holy Spirit and came to deserve sonship and to be adored, in the way that one adores a statue of the emperor, as if he were God the Word, and that he became after his resurrection immutable in his thoughts and entirely without sin. Furthermore this heretical Theodore claimed that the union of God the Word to Christ is rather like that which, according to the teaching of the Apostle, is between a man and his wife: The two shall become one. Among innumerable other blasphemies he dared to allege that, when after his resurrection the Lord breathed on his disciples and said, Receive the holy Spirit, he was not truly giving them the holy Spirit, but he breathed on them only as a sign. Similarly he claimed that Thomas's profession of faith made when, after his resurrection, he touched the hands and side of the Lord, namely My Lord and my God, was not said about Christ, but that Thomas was in this way extolling God for raising up Christ and expressing his astonishment at the miracle of the resurrection. This Theodore makes a comparison which is even worse than this when, writing about the acts of the Apostles, he says that Christ was like Plato, Manichaeus, Epicurus and Marcion, alleging that just as each of these men arrived at his own teaching and then had his disciples called after him Platonists, Manichaeans, Epicureans and Marcionites, so Christ found his teaching and then had disciples who were called Christians. If anyone offers a defence for this more heretical Theodore, and his heretical books in which he throws up the aforesaid blasphemies and many other additional blasphemies against our great God and saviour Jesus Christ, and if anyone fails to anathematize him and his heretical books as well as all those who offer acceptance or defence to him, or who allege that his interpretation is correct, or who write on his behalf or on that of his heretical teachings, or who are or have been of the same way of thinking and persist until death in this error: let him be anathema.

13. If anyone defends the heretical writings of Theodoret which were composed against the true faith, against the first holy synod of Ephesus and against holy Cyril and his Twelve Chapters, and also defends what Theodoret wrote to support the heretical Theodore and Nestorius and others who think in the same way as the aforesaid Theodore and Nestorius and accept them or their heresy and if anyone, because of them, shall accuse of being heretical the doctors of the church who have stated their belief in the union according to subsistence of God the Word; and if anyone does not anathematize these heretical books and those who have thought or now think in this way, and all those who have written against the true faith or against holy Cyril and his twelve chapters, and who persist in such heresy until they die: let him be anathema.

14. If anyone defends the letter which Ibas is said to have written to Mari the Persian, which denies that God the Word, who became incarnate of Mary the holy mother of God and ever virgin, became man, but alleges that he was only a man born to her, whom it describes as a temple, as if God the Word was one and the man someone quite different; which condemns holy Cyril as if he were a heretic, when he gives the true teaching of Christians, and accuses holy Cyril of writing opinions like those of the heretical Apollinarius ;which rebukes the first holy synod of Ephesus, alleging that it condemned Nestorius without going into the matter by a formal examination; which claims that the twelve chapters of holy Cyril are heretical and opposed to the true faith; and which defends Theodore and Nestorius and their heretical teachings and books. If anyone defends the said letter and does not anathematize it and all those who offer a defence for it and allege that it or a part of it is correct, or if anyone defends those who have written or shall write in support of it or the heresies contained in it, or supports those who are bold enough to defend it or its heresies in the name of the holy fathers of the holy synod of Chalcedon, and persists in these errors until his death: let him be anathema.

Such then are the assertions we confess. We have received them from

1. holy Scripture, from
2. the teaching of the holy fathers, and from
3. the definitions about the one and the same faith made by the aforesaid four holy synods.

Moreover, condemnation has been passed by us against the heretics and their impiety, and also against those who have justified or shall justify the so-called "Three Chapters", and against those who have persisted or will persist in their own error. If anyone should attempt to hand on, or to teach by word or writing, anything contrary to what we have regulated, then if he is a bishop or somebody appointed to the clergy, in so far as he is acting contrary to what befits priests and the ecclesiastical status, let him be stripped of the rank of priest or cleric, and if he is a monk or lay person, let him be anathema.

personally, I don't think you do extensive research. for the umpteenth time, APOKATASTASIS IS NOT THE PROBLEM, it's how Origen understood it that's the problem. St Maximos the confessor affirms it (who also rejected Origen's understanding).

we have been through this before, a LOT.
 
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Light of the East

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https://jordanville.org/files/Articles/Anathemas.pdf


"To Those Who Reject The Councils of the Holy Fathers, and traditions which are in accord with divine revelation, and which the Orthodox Church piously maintains, ANATHEMA!"

And

"To the holy and right-believing Emperor Constantine, equal of the apostles, and his mother Helena, and to the Orthodox rulers of Greece: Theodosius the Great, Theodosius the Younger, Justinian, and other Orthodox rulers of Greece, MEMORY ETERNAL!"


.

Do you want to discuss with me or do you want to act like a Protestant and just throw quotes at me?
 
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Light of the East

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personally, I don't think you do extensive research. for the umpteenth time, APOKATASTASIS IS NOT THE PROBLEM, it's how Origen understood it that's the problem. St Maximos the confessor affirms it (who also rejected Origen's understanding).

we have been through this before, a LOT.

Yes, we have Father, and I reject the last definition which you gave me in which , if I remember correctly, you define Apokatastasis as God will bring all back to Him through the Cross, but there will be people who will nonetheless suffer eternally because they will not repent (or cannot repent).

To me, that is not Universal Restoration if there are still souls suffering. Origen's ideas of Apokatastasis were attached to some rather bizzare ideas about the form of that restoration and how it takes place. For instance, he claimed that the restoation to the state of pre-existent souls souls would be in the form of spherical bodies. One wonders where he got that idea. He had some strange and bizarre theologumenon for a man who was otherwise regarded as a brilliant expositor of the Bible.

As for the "extensive" research, I guess that depends on how we define extensive, doesn't it? I think I have read a lot more on this subject, including all the canons of the 5th, 6th, and 7th councils, than most folks.

There is one difference between our undersanding - you take the Thomist view that once dead, souls are locked into their state, whatever that is. I do not, and I believe that God is able to bring about their conversion without the violation of their wills.
 
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ArmyMatt

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Do you want to discuss with me or do you want to act like a Protestant and just throw quotes at me?

on this issue, I am sorry to say, there is no real discussion.
 
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ArmyMatt

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Yes, we have Father, and I reject the last definition which you gave me in which , if I remember correctly, you define Apokatastasis as God will bring all back to Him through the Cross, but there will be people who will nonetheless suffer eternally because they will not repent (or cannot repent).

To me, that is not Universal Restoration if there are still souls suffering. Origen's ideas of Apokatastasis were attached to some rather bizzare ideas about the form of that restoration and how it takes place. For instance, he claimed that the restoation to the state of pre-existent souls souls would be in the form of spherical bodies. One wonders where he got that idea. He had some strange and bizarre theologumenon for a man who was otherwise regarded as a brilliant expositor of the Bible.

As for the "extensive" research, I guess that depends on how we define extensive, doesn't it? I think I have read a lot more on this subject, including all the canons of the 5th, 6th, and 7th councils, than most folks.

There is one difference between our undersanding - you take the Thomist view that once dead, souls are locked into their state, whatever that is. I do not, and I believe that God is able to bring about their conversion without the violation of their wills.

your problem is no one cares about your opinion. whether or not you think it's an actual restoration is irrelevant, since you are not even Orthodox yet. so you are in no position to say what we believe.

as for your research, you might know more than most, but you don't know more than us. and there is a whole lot more than the Synods that have been quoted in these threads.

and lastly, no, I do not take the Thomist stance. I do not believe that once souls are dead they are locked in place. I have, in the past quoted from Sts Mark of Ephesus, Xenia of St Petersburg, and Joseph the hesychast that refute this point of yours.
 
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Jude1:3Contendforthefaith

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Do you want to discuss with me or do you want to act like a Protestant and just throw quotes at me?

I want to make it clear that I have nothing against you. God Bless You. I think that you're a great poster.

On this particular subject though, all I can do is post and quote what The Councils and Holy Fathers have already said.

As an Orthodox Christian I must affirm The decrees of The Councils and Holy Fathers.




Now, with all that being said I hope that Origen is in Heaven and I like him as human being.


.
 
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QUOTE="ArmyMatt

Your problem is no one cares about your opinion. whether or not you think it's an actual restoration is irrelevant, since you are not even Orthodox yet. so you are in no position to say what we believe.

as for your research, you might know more than most, but you don't know more than us. and there is a whole lot more than the Synods that have been quoted in these threads.

and lastly, no, I do not take the Thomist stance. I do not believe that once souls are dead they are locked in place. I have, in the past quoted from Sts Mark of Ephesus, Xenia of St Petersburg, and Joseph the hesychast that refute this point of yours.

If this is so, then there should be hope that God can restore all. I would think this is pretty black/white. Either people are locked in place, or they are capable of repenting.

However, I do think I remember you telling me that once the Judgment is over, then they are locked in place, right?
 
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Light of the East

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QUOTE="Jude1:3Contendforthefaith,

I want to make it clear that I have nothing against you. God Bless You. I think that you're a great poster.

Thank you for those kind words. They are appreciated.

On this particular subject though, all I can do is post and quote what The Councils and Holy Fathers have already said.

As an Orthodox Christian I must affirm The decrees of The Councils and Holy Fathers.

I understand. I agree, for to do otherwise would make you some form of Protestant. My concern here is the discovery of issues which bring the 14 Anathemas of Justinian into question.

Now, with all that being said I hope that Origen is in Heaven and I like him as human being.

:amen:

.
 
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ArmyMatt

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If this is so, then there should be hope that God can restore all. I would think this is pretty black/white. Either people are locked in place, or they are capable of repenting.

However, I do think I remember you telling me that once the Judgment is over, then they are locked in place, right?

people aren't capable of repenting after death. however, God can save folks through His Church after their death, and the Church prays for everyone. this is the Church's mission until Judgment Day, when Christ returns. so it is entirely possible that on that day, we see that everyone is on God's right hand. that is something to hope for and we should rejoice if that comes to pass.

however, it is possible for people to end up on the left hand as well, and if they are damned, it's because it's their choice to be.
 
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Jesse Dornfeld

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what exactly do you want to know?

Mostly what you have already answered, namely, that although EO don't think Christ's birth, ministry, and resurrection as less than symbolic, they still do see the symbolism in such things. So it is not as though it is ONLY symbolic, but that the symbolism is just as important as the literal in the case of such. Do I have that right? It has been pretty crazy trying to figure this all out.
 
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ArmyMatt

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Mostly what you have already answered, namely, that although EO don't think Christ's birth, ministry, and resurrection as less than symbolic, they still do see the symbolism in such things. So it is not as though it is ONLY symbolic, but that the symbolism is just as important as the literal in the case of such. Do I have that right? It has been pretty crazy trying to figure this all out.

we believe it's true if it points you to Christ, it's true. if it's literal, symbolic, or both.
 
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Jesse Dornfeld

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we believe it's true if it points you to Christ, it's true. if it's literal, symbolic, or both.

So, in a manner of speaking, "Whatever brings you to Christ is good?" IDK how I feel about that. I was brought to Christ through an experience I can't make heads or tails of, but it lead me to the Bible and it lead me here, in a manner of speaking.
 
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ArmyMatt

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So, in a manner of speaking, "Whatever brings you to Christ is good?" IDK how I feel about that. I was brought to Christ through an experience I can't make heads or tails of, but it lead me to the Bible and it lead me here, in a manner of speaking.

you having an experience doesn't conflict with what I said.
 
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Jesse Dornfeld

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you having an experience doesn't conflict with what I said.

It could if you knew the nature of the experience. Sure, it lead me to the Bible, but there are some things about this experience that might make it look ridiculous or down right blasphemous. If you would like to know more about it, send me a PM. These things should not be discussed in the public. I would be happy to talk to you about them in private though. This experiences radically changed my life and it was larger than life. If you would like to discuss it cool, if not, that is cool as well.
 
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ArmyMatt

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It could if you knew the nature of the experience. Sure, it lead me to the Bible, but there are some things about this experience that might make it look ridiculous or down right blasphemous. If you would like to know more about it, send me a PM. These things should not be discussed in the public. I would be happy to talk to you about them in private though. This experiences radically changed my life and it was larger than life. If you would like to discuss it cool, if not, that is cool as well.

we can discuss it privately if you like, but just because it seems blasphemous or weird, that doesn't mean it wasn't from Christ.
 
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Jesse Dornfeld

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we can discuss it privately if you like, but just because it seems blasphemous or weird, that doesn't mean it wasn't from Christ.

I agree all things come by the Lordship of Christ, but it remains to be see that all things are "Good" as far as we would understand them. Not to say we need to set up categories of good and bad arbitrarily, but surely it is easy to see some things are Good and some things are not on the face of it. I say this because if there are "degrees" of Good and Evil (Bad) then surely somethings are "Good" and some things "lack Goodness" as far as a quality of them is concerned. As far as how this relates to my experience, I really couldn't say. Perhaps you would be willing to walk me through it a bit? I find you to be of respectable character so I wouldn't mind discussing it with you.
 
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