Attack on Christianity

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Let me be clear: I am not sanctioning the internal persecution of Christians on sectarian lines. What I am saying is the systematic genocide of Christians under various Islamic regimes, especially those perpetrated by Tamerlane* and the Ottoman Empire*, and most recently under the Islamic State**, and under militant atheist regimes like the Soviet Union, especially in its early years (the persecution mellowed out during the WWII era), in Albania under Enver Hoxha, in Romania under Ceausescu and his dreaded Securitate, and in North Korea, was infinitely worse. Indeed, these genocides can really only be compared with the Holocaust in terms of scale and comprehensiveness.

Also the one million figure you cite on witches strikes me as being high; I will have to look into it; there is no denying however that there has been a horrible amount of violence between supposed Christians, and genocides, for example, the Crusaders who killed large numbers of Eastern and Oriental Orthodox Christians and did in some instances cannibalize them, before the Fourth or False Crusade, an event which so weakened the Byzantine Empire, that its collapse 243 years later became an inevitability. However, it is ultimately besides the point; my point is that militant atheists do have actual blood on their hands and a massive amount of it, as well. Communist atheist dictators I would argue have been the second worst external persecutors of Christians, after radical Muslims (primarily radical Sunni Muslims like Tamerlane or the Young Turks*** who seized power in the Ottoman Empire in 1909). The Roman persecutions, which only temporarily stopped under Constantine, before continuing into the reign of Theodosius, easily come in at no. 3.
I don’t understand why you are arguing the point with me. The fact is that Christians have done some horrible things. Our past is not pure and white. Do numbers really matter that much? Your argument seems to be that we have done some bad things but what they did was worse. I’m sorry, shouldn’t Christians be held to a higher standard?
 
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The Liturgist

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Your argument seems to be that we have done some bad things but what they did was worse.

While that is true, my argument is rather that militant atheists do pose an imminent danger to Christians, not only of political oppression, but also of actual violence. And unfortunately for us, the same stigma does not attach to Bolsheviks and other like minded atheist extremists that attaches to Nazis or Islamic militants. Indeed, you can find, and I have found, to my great disdain, militant atheists who will attribute the violence of both Nazism and Islam to religion and use this not only as justification for the suppression of all religion in the manner of Enver Hoxha, but also as an excuse for the numerable mass-murders of Christians committed under the red flag (while still others will deny that those happened and attribute it to “fascist propaganda”).

Also, I should stress that the evil fascist regimes of the 20th century, especially the Third Reich, were among the worst persecutors of Christians.
 
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Brando Marlin

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In some cases, some atheists have been hurt by Christians, and so they are pushing back against the ideology or community that hurt them.
Very true. I had a catholic grandmother that would spank my cousin and he turned out to be all the the fallen angels and there leader. He even wrote up some sort of bible for satin and one night he said the book just started smoking and busted into flames. I don't know how much I believe him but that was enough for me to cut him out of my life.
 
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Alibris

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I didn’t know where to put this so I’ll put it here. Many atheists will attack Christians online or in person. They will say everything we believe is false and get so mad when we believe in it. They seek out Christians to mock. If they truly believed Christianity was false, then why would they attack it so much? I don’t believe in aliens, and I don’t go around attacking people that believe in them. (When I say attack I mean with words not physically.)


I was going to a church where a pastor from the pulpit was saying Catholics, Mormons and Jehovah Witnesses as not Christians yet he was taking verses from the Bible and using them out of context
with out knowing where the heart of a person is with God that they might want to witness to.

I personally know people who are Catholics, Mormons and Jehovah Witnesses so to hear a person who is suppose to lead do this made me ended up leaving that church.


Sometimes what believers do end up pushing people away from God rather then toward him.
 
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The Liturgist

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I was going to a church where a pastor from the pulpit was saying Catholics, Mormons and Jehovah Witnesses as not Christians yet he was taking verses from the Bible and using them out of context
with out knowing where the heart of a person is with God that they might want to witness to.

I personally know people who are Catholics, Mormons and Jehovah Witnesses so to hear a person who is suppose to lead do this made me ended up leaving that church.


Sometimes what believers do end up pushing people away from God rather then toward him.

Well, most Christians feel that Mormons and J/Ws are not Christian, because they don’t follow the Nicene Creed, and my understanding is that christianforums.com does not consider them Christian based on the Statement of Faith, so I personally would not have a huge problem with that, however, if a pastor diverted from a sermon that responded to what was in the lectionary to deliver a fire and brimstone sermon against the Mormons and J/Ws that wouod be off-putting.

As a conservative mainline Protestant however I would certainly walk out when the anti-Catholic bashing started, because we have been through that, and now is the time for ecumenical reconciliation within the Western churches and between Western Christendom and the churches of the East (Eastern and Oriental Orthodox, and the Assyrians).
 
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I didn’t know where to put this so I’ll put it here. Many atheists will attack Christians online or in person. They will say everything we believe is false and get so mad when we believe in it. They seek out Christians to mock. If they truly believed Christianity was false, then why would they attack it so much? I don’t believe in aliens, and I don’t go around attacking people that believe in them. (When I say attack I mean with words not physically.)
To me they are blemishes on your love feasts, as they boldly carouse together, looking after themselves; clouds without water, carried along by winds; fruitless trees in late autumn, twice dead, uprooted; 13 wild waves of the sea, casting up the foam of their own shame; wandering stars for whom the nether gloom of darkness has been reserved for ever. Jude, 1:12

Psalm, 14:1 The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God…

I’m not sure why they exist on this site. Perhaps to sharpen the faith, knowledge, and commitment of believers. Though in my opinion, new believers may be be deceived and stumbled by the rhetoric.
 
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Alibris

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Well, most Christians feel that Mormons and J/Ws are not Christian, because they don’t follow the Nicene Creed, and my understanding is that christianforums.com does not consider them Christian based on the Statement of Faith, so I personally would not have a huge problem with that, however, if a pastor diverted from a sermon that responded to what was in the lectionary to deliver a fire and brimstone sermon against the Mormons and J/Ws that wouod be off-putting.

As a conservative mainline Protestant however I would certainly walk out when the anti-Catholic bashing started, because we have been through that, and now is the time for ecumenical reconciliation within the Western churches and between Western Christendom and the churches of the East (Eastern and Oriental Orthodox, and the Assyrians).


I understand some don't see them as Christians and respect their view on it but it was a big turn off hearing a pastor preach from the pulpit during a church service in that I ended up leaving the church.

I can't imagine winning my Catholic, Mormon and Jehovah Witness family and friends to Jesus by picking apart what they believe in order to share the gospel with them.
 
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steve78

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Based on this, I suspect the most rabid atheists actually do believe God. It's just that they want to deny His existence. Which explains why Christians get all the hate. It's like satan taking out his hate on us humans, because we are created in Gods image.
 
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steve78

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Listen closely to the people who push the ideas of equality. It is as if these ideas where handed down by god. They can never be questioned. Effectively, we are talking about religion here. It's the religion of equality. Other names for this are the church of woke or church of equality.

They were though. Evangelicals and Fundies have twisted what the bible really means.
 
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The Liturgist

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They were though. Evangelicals and Fundies have twisted what the bible really means.

I am neither an evangelical per se nor a fundamentalist, but there are some evangelicals who are also traditional, liturgical Christians.

I do think its a bit harsh however to accuse anyone except serious cult leaders like Jim Jones or “Do”, the leader of Heaven’s Gate, or the Jehovah’s Witnesses, of actually intentionally twisting what scripture means. It would ne more fair to say, in the context of ecumenical discussion between members of different denominations, that some doctrines are the result of errors in interpretation.

And I would argue that many groups could be said to adhere to doctrines based on erroneous interpretations of scripture. I have a friend who has written an interesting paper critical of the Salvation Army, because he considers your church to be in grave error for not baptizing newly received Christians (either as infants or as believer’s baptism) or celebrating Holy Communion, which he attributes to misinterpretation both of Scripture and of Wesleyan theology (which was highly sacramental and eucharistic) by members of the Salvation Army as it transitioned from being a Christian service organization into an actual church. I myself have not had the chance to fully evaluate his thesis, but I can send you a copy if you are interested, or perhaps ask his permission to upload it to the Denomination Specific Theology forum if you wished to rebut it.

I myself, as an admirer of John Wesley (I am not a member of the UMC but I would call myself a Wesleyan in terms of my views on sacramental theology and soteriology), would, if it is true that the Salvation Army doesn’t perform baptisms or celebrate Holy Communion, be inclined to view that as a serious error, as serious or more serious than any common misinterpretation among evangelicals or fundamentalists.
 
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steve78

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I am neither an evangelical per se nor a fundamentalist, but there are some evangelicals who are also traditional, liturgical Christians.

I do think its a bit harsh however to accuse anyone except serious cult leaders like Jim Jones or “Do”, the leader of Heaven’s Gate, or the Jehovah’s Witnesses, of actually intentionally twisting what scripture means. It would ne more fair to say, in the context of ecumenical discussion between members of different denominations, that some doctrines are the result of errors in interpretation.

.

It's not harsh most do this. Creationists are another group that twist scripture. The argument of the fundie is that the bible is right and science is wrong.

Science is right, how a fundie understands scripture that's wrong.
 
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steve78

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And I would argue that many groups could be said to adhere to doctrines based on erroneous interpretations of scripture. I have a friend who has written an interesting paper critical of the Salvation Army, because he considers your church to be in grave error for not baptizing newly received Christians (either as infants or as believer’s baptism) or celebrating Holy Communion, which he attributes to misinterpretation both of Scripture and of Wesleyan theology (which was highly sacramental and eucharistic) by members of the Salvation Army as it transitioned from being a Christian service organization into an actual church. s.

The Army does Baptize, just not with water. We call it dedication. The Salvation Army does not practise water baptism, as it considers the baptism of the Spirit to be the only baptism necessary for salvation.
 
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The Liturgist

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The Army does Baptize, just not with water. We call it dedication. The Salvation Army does not practise water baptism, as it considers the baptism of the Spirit to be the only baptism necessary for salvation.

And Holy Communion?
 
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steve78

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Wesleyan in terms of my views on sacramental theology and soteriology), would, if it is true that the Salvation Army doesn’t perform baptisms or celebrate Holy Communion, be inclined to view that as a serious error, as serious or more serious than any common misinterpretation among evangelicals or fundamentalists.

I simply don't agree with that at all.

Taking communion doesn’t make you a Christian. It doesn’t save your soul or get you to heaven.
 
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We do that sometimes, although not with wine as Alcohol drinking is not permitted. I have had communion with Ribena.

What is Ribena?

The Methodists partake of the Eucharist using grape juice, which is fine in my opinion as it is a form of wine; however I would note that it is quite impossible to get drunk on the Eucharist. The Syriac Orthodox, like most Methodists, practice intinction. The Eastern Orthodox place a particle of the body of our Lord on a spoon, after filling that spoon with the blood, which is consecrated from a sweet, low alcohol wine mixed with boiling hot water the moment before the Eucharist is given to the laity. The only case where I think one might run the risk of triggering an alcoholic would be in some churches where straight undiluted wine is used, and drunk from individual cups.
 
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Palmfever

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Jesus said "You are with me or against me" atheists are against God's people. When there is opposition there is sometimes hate.
Why sugar coat it? They are self professed enemies of God.
Mat, 12:30 He who is not with Me is against Me, and he who does not gather with Me scatters.

1 John, 2:22 Who is the liar except the one who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, the one who denies the Father and the Son. 23 Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father; the one who confesses the Son has the Father also.

Psalm, 14:1 The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God…

Job, 15:2 “Should a wise man answer with windy knowledge,
And fill himself with the east wind?
3 Should he argue with useless talk,
Or with words which do not benefit?
4 Indeed, you do away with reverence,
And hinder meditation before God.
5 For your wrongdoing teaches your mouth,
And you choose the language of the cunning.
6 Your own mouth condemns you, and not I;
And your own lips testify against you.
 
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