Which passages in particular in Revelation do Amils use to support all of the following?

sovereigngrace · Jan 5, 2021

DavidPT said:
The following just came to mind. With post # 36 in mind, and my use of real world examples and something being submerged, IOW hidden, until it rises to the surface, why isn't anyone interpreting Revelation 13:1 in light of the following in 2 Thessalonians 2?

2 Thessalonians 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

The first mistake many make concerning this verse, they are misapplying what 'taken' means according to the Greek. The Greek word is ginomai

a prolongation and middle voice form of a primary verb; to cause to be ("gen"-erate), i.e. (reflexively) to become (come into being), used with great latitude (literal, figurative, intensive, etc.):--arise, be assembled, be(-come, -fall, -have self), be brought (to pass), (be) come (to pass), continue, be divided, draw, be ended, fall, be finished, follow, be found, be fulfilled, + God forbid, grow, happen, have, be kept, be made, be married, be ordained to be, partake, pass, be performed, be published, require, seem, be showed, X soon as it was, sound, be taken, be turned, use, wax, will, would, be wrought.

Notice something here, one of it's defs---arise. This Greek word doesn't mean something is being removed, it means something is coming to be, as in was hidden until it comes out in the open.

And in Revelation 13:1 we see something rising up out of the sea, and in Revelation 17 we are told that this same something rises up out of the BP. Surely all of these things are connected with 2 Thessalonians 2:7, both Revelation 13:1 and Revelation 17.

I would then think---only he who now letteth will let--is being applied while the beast is in the pit---and this part---until he be taken out of the way---is being applied to when the beast emerges from the pit. Even though I'm not Amil, why would Amils choose to disagree with me here? Because I'm Premil, and that no Premil can be correct about anything involving things like this since Premil is not a valid position to begin with? It shouldn't matter that I'm Premil, I'm simply just trying to make sense out of these texts involved, and where ever that leads, either to Premil or to Amil, is where that leads.

You are unto something. I agree.

Spiritual Jew · Jan 5, 2021

DavidPT said:
The following just came to mind. With post # 36 in mind, and my use of real world examples and something being submerged, IOW hidden, until it rises to the surface, why isn't anyone interpreting Revelation 13:1 in light of the following in 2 Thessalonians 2?

2 Thessalonians 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

The first mistake many make concerning this verse, they are misapplying what 'taken' means according to the Greek. The Greek word is ginomai

a prolongation and middle voice form of a primary verb; to cause to be ("gen"-erate), i.e. (reflexively) to become (come into being), used with great latitude (literal, figurative, intensive, etc.):--arise, be assembled, be(-come, -fall, -have self), be brought (to pass), (be) come (to pass), continue, be divided, draw, be ended, fall, be finished, follow, be found, be fulfilled, + God forbid, grow, happen, have, be kept, be made, be married, be ordained to be, partake, pass, be performed, be published, require, seem, be showed, X soon as it was, sound, be taken, be turned, use, wax, will, would, be wrought.

Notice something here, one of it's defs---arise. This Greek word doesn't mean something is being removed, it means something is coming to be, as in was hidden until it comes out in the open.

And in Revelation 13:1 we see something rising up out of the sea, and in Revelation 17 we are told that this same something rises up out of the BP. Surely all of these things are connected with 2 Thessalonians 2:7, both Revelation 13:1 and Revelation 17.

I would then think---only he who now letteth will let--is being applied while the beast is in the pit---and this part---until he be taken out of the way---is being applied to when the beast emerges from the pit. Even though I'm not Amil, why would Amils choose to disagree with me here? Because I'm Premil, and that no Premil can be correct about anything involving things like this since Premil is not a valid position to begin with? It shouldn't matter that I'm Premil, I'm simply just trying to make sense out of these texts involved, and where ever that leads, either to Premil or to Amil, is where that leads.

I can't really make sense out of what you said here and how it proves anything about Revelation 13, but all I can say is that I do believe that 2 Thess 2 coincides with Satan's little season. I believe when Satan is loosed, so is the beast. They are inseparable.

The fact that you don't recognize that the beast being loosed from the pit coincides with Satan being loosed from the pit is what confuses me the most about your understanding of the beast ascending from the pit.

Maria Billingsley · Jan 5, 2021

Spiritual Jew said:
Do you overlook this verse:

Revelation 1:19 Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;

I did say future events as well , like the destruction of the Temple and the end of that age.

BTW, I believe Revelation was written before this event.

Spiritual Jew · Jan 5, 2021

Maria Billingsley said:
I did say future events as well , like the destruction of the Temple and the end of that age.

The end of the age has not yet come. This is a major problem that I have with the preterist (including partial-preterist) view. Jesus put an end to the old covenant with His death on the cross.

Colossians 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; 14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

The end of the age will be come when the future resurrection of the dead occurs at the second coming of Christ (1 Thess 4:14-17, 1 Cor 15:22-28,50-55). At that time there will be no more marriage or death because the new heavens and new earth will be ushered in.

Luke 20:34 Jesus replied, “The people of this age marry and are given in marriage. 35 But those who are considered worthy of taking part in the age to come and in the resurrection from the dead will neither marry nor be given in marriage, 36 and they can no longer die; for they are like the angels. They are God’s children, since they are children of the resurrection.

When Jesus taught about this age and the age to come and the end of this age, He never spoke about that in terms of an old covenant age and new covenant age. He spoke of this age and the age to come in terms of this temporal age that we're still living in now where people get married and they die to the eternal age to come when people will no longer get married and will no longer die because we will be like the angels in that way.

BTW, I believe Revelation was written before this event.

What is your evidence for that?

Also, why was it written to churches in Asia Minor if the book centers around events in Jerusalem? Shouldn't it have been written to the churches in Israel or Jerusalem instead if that was the case?

jeffweedaman · Jan 5, 2021

Spiritual Jew said:
Also, why was it written to churches in Asia Minor if the book centers around events in Jerusalem? Shouldn't it have been written to the churches in Israel or Jerusalem instead if that was the case?

Good question.
Why were the bondservants of Jerusalem left out of this warning of what was to take place ,....if it was written before 70AD?

The rev does not address that Church.

1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show to His bond-servants, the things which must soon take place; and He sent and communicated it by His angel to His bond-servant John, 2 who testified to the word of God and to the testimony of Jesus Christ, everything that he saw. 3 Blessed is the one who reads, and those who hear the words of the prophecy and keep the things which are written in it; for the time is near.

sovereigngrace · Jan 6, 2021

Maria Billingsley said:
I did say future events as well , like the destruction of the Temple and the end of that age.

BTW, I believe Revelation was written before this event.

It is real easy to piece this whole thing together. The detail that is attributed to the end of the age is exactly the same as that attributed to the last day. It is the same climactic day. It is the day when Jesus comes at the end and judges both the righteous and the wicked.

Last day

John 11:21-27 records: “Then said Martha unto Jesus, Lord, if thou hadst been here, my brother had not died. But I know, that even now, whatsoever thou wilt ask of God, God will give it thee. Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again. Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day. Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this? She saith unto him, Yea, Lord: I believe that thou art the Christ, the Son of God, which should come into the world.”

Christ did not rebuke this understanding of the last day. In fact, it was in complete agreement with what Christ had previously taught in John 6:39-44, 54, where He said, “And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day …No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day ... Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”

The righteous are resurrected! When does this happen? When Jesus Comes. This is clear and simple!

That is not all.

Christ tells us in John 12:48, “He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.”

There you have it! The same day that the righteous are raised is the same day the wicked are judged.

Christ describes this day as an unanticipated day for many – one that will find many unprepared. For those who are playing at religion they will be caught on. They will face the same punishment as the “hypocrite” when He comes: “there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” The wicked are an all-inclusive group; they include every Christ-rejecter – from the religious professors to the outright profane hypocrites. They will all be caught in the destruction when they are left behind and the “heaven and earth ... pass away.”

The Bible shows the resurrection/judgment of the righteous and the resurrection of the wicked to occur on “the last day” of “the last days” when Jesus comes.

The end of the age

It is not just that Scripture depicts the second coming as “the last day,” it is that it labels it also as “the end of the age/world.”

Jesus taught in the parable of the wheat and tares (in Matthew 13:24-30), “The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field. But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed among the wheat, and went his way …Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.”

Verses 39-43 continues, “the harvest is the end of the world (or aion or age); and the reapers are the angels. As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world (or aion or age). The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father.”

Jesus locates “the harvest” of both the wicked and the righteous at “the end of the aion or age.” We see that in this age the good and the bad grow together. But the age to come is not so. It is not open to the wicked. This agrees with the statement of Christ in Luke 20:34-36 which shows that one has to be qualified to inherit the age to come and the new earth: one has to be “accounted worthy to obtain that aion or age. The reason is: it is only for believers. This passage shows that it is in this age that “the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father.” This is talking about the perfect incorruptible glorified state. The wicked on the other hand are “cast … into a furnace of fire” where “there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.”

Here we see the final separation of the righteous and the wicked including the burning of those who practice lawlessness, and reward of those who belonged to Christ. In this context, “the end of the age” obviously refers to Christ’s glorious second coming. It cannot refer to the destruction of Jerusalem, as Preterists contend, since there was no separation of the righteous from the wicked, nor no final judgment for mankind then.

The same truth is also revealed by Christ in Matthew 13:47-50, in the parable of the net: “the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind: Which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away. So shall it be at the end of the world (or aion or age): the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just, And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.”

The bringing in of the “net” here relates to the angels gathering the righteous and the wicked together for judgment. This assignment is notably not executed until the net “was full.” We can see here that the wicked and righteous are drawn in at the same time. The Christ-rejecter is judged, sentenced and eternally separated from the elect of God at “the end of the age.” The outcome for the wicked drawn in by God’s great net in this parable is horrendous as they are pictured “wailing (klauthmos) and gnashing of teeth” or as it is rendered in the parable of the talents: “weeping (klauthmos) and gnashing of teeth.” This is the time of final judgment for the rebel against God.

Maria Billingsley · Jan 6, 2021

sovereigngrace said:
It is real easy to piece this whole thing together. The detail that is attributed to the end of the age is exactly the same as that attributed to the last day. It is the same climactic day. It is the day when Jesus comes at the end and judges both the righteous and the wicked.

Last day

John 11:21-27 records: “Then said Martha unto Jesus, Lord, if thou hadst been here, my brother had not died. But I know, that even now, whatsoever thou wilt ask of God, God will give it thee. Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again. Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day. Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this? She saith unto him, Yea, Lord: I believe that thou art the Christ, the Son of God, which should come into the world.”

Christ did not rebuke this understanding of the last day. In fact, it was in complete agreement with what Christ had previously taught in John 6:39-44, 54, where He said, “And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day …No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day ... Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”

The righteous are resurrected! When does this happen? When Jesus Comes. This is clear and simple!

That is not all.

Christ tells us in John 12:48, “He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.”

There you have it! The same day that the righteous are raised is the same day the wicked are judged.

Christ describes this day as an unanticipated day for many – one that will find many unprepared. For those who are playing at religion they will be caught on. They will face the same punishment as the “hypocrite” when He comes: “there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” The wicked are an all-inclusive group; they include every Christ-rejecter – from the religious professors to the outright profane hypocrites. They will all be caught in the destruction when they are left behind and the “heaven and earth ... pass away.”

The Bible shows the resurrection/judgment of the righteous and the resurrection of the wicked to occur on “the last day” of “the last days” when Jesus comes.

The end of the age

It is not just that Scripture depicts the second coming as “the last day,” it is that it labels it also as “the end of the age/world.”

Jesus taught in the parable of the wheat and tares (in Matthew 13:24-30), “The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field. But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed among the wheat, and went his way …Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.”

Verses 39-43 continues, “the harvest is the end of the world (or aion or age); and the reapers are the angels. As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world (or aion or age). The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father.”

Jesus locates “the harvest” of both the wicked and the righteous at “the end of the aion or age.” We see that in this age the good and the bad grow together. But the age to come is not so. It is not open to the wicked. This agrees with the statement of Christ in Luke 20:34-36 which shows that one has to be qualified to inherit the age to come and the new earth: one has to be “accounted worthy to obtain that aion or age. The reason is: it is only for believers. This passage shows that it is in this age that “the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father.” This is talking about the perfect incorruptible glorified state. The wicked on the other hand are “cast … into a furnace of fire” where “there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.”

Here we see the final separation of the righteous and the wicked including the burning of those who practice lawlessness, and reward of those who belonged to Christ. In this context, “the end of the age” obviously refers to Christ’s glorious second coming. It cannot refer to the destruction of Jerusalem, as Preterists contend, since there was no separation of the righteous from the wicked, nor no final judgment for mankind then.

The same truth is also revealed by Christ in Matthew 13:47-50, in the parable of the net: “the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind: Which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away. So shall it be at the end of the world (or aion or age): the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just, And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.”

The bringing in of the “net” here relates to the angels gathering the righteous and the wicked together for judgment. This assignment is notably not executed until the net “was full.” We can see here that the wicked and righteous are drawn in at the same time. The Christ-rejecter is judged, sentenced and eternally separated from the elect of God at “the end of the age.” The outcome for the wicked drawn in by God’s great net in this parable is horrendous as they are pictured “wailing (klauthmos) and gnashing of teeth” or as it is rendered in the parable of the talents: “weeping (klauthmos) and gnashing of teeth.” This is the time of final judgment for the rebel against God.

There is "the last day" when Jesus Christ of Nazareth returns and then there are several " end of the age" occuraces. One such occurrence was predicted by Jesus, " not one stone will be upon another", 70AD. The answer to the "end of the age" question asked by His Apostles. We in the 21st century can not grasp the enormity of this event with the complete halt of Temple Judaism and of that age. It will never returned to its former glory.

sovereigngrace · Jan 6, 2021

Maria Billingsley said:
There is "the last day" when Jesus Christ of Nazareth returns and then there are several " end of the age" occuraces. One such occurrence was predicted by Jesus, " not one stone will be upon another", 70AD. The answer to the "end of the age" question asked by His Apostles. We in the 21st century can not grasp the enormity of this event with the complete halt of Temple Judaism and of that age. It will never returned to its former glory.

Partial Preterists are fixated with AD70 and the coming of Titus. This event is indeed preeminent in their thinking and thee central event in their theology. That is all they want to talk about. The rest of us look to the life, death and resurrection of Christ and His impending return at the end of the world as the preeminent and central events in history.

DavidPT · Jan 6, 2021

Spiritual Jew said:
How exactly does Revelation 20:4 prove that?

Revelation 13:15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed----and I saw the souls of them----which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands

How can there be zero involvment of Revelation 20:4 with that of Revelation 13:15? How can Revelation 13:15 be meaning after the thousand years when nothing in Revelation 20:4 is meaning after the thousand years? How is it even possible that Revelation 13:15 can be fulfilled to begin with unless the beast has already ascended out of the pit first, the fact this same FP is taken with the beast at the 2nd coming and both are cast alive into the LOF?

And if Revelation 20:4 involves Revelation 13:15 , it is illogical to conclude that the beast has not already ascended out of the pit when these particular saints recorded in Revelation 20:4 are initially martyred. I'm willing to consider anything if it's at least logical. There is nothing logical about Revelation 20:4---which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands---if that is supposed to be involving a period of time before the beast has ascended out of the pit.

Spiritual Jew said:
What is your understanding of the identity of the locusts? Clearly, it's not referring to literal locusts since it says their king is "the angel of the abyss". That makes them angels as well. Fallen angels. Who is the king of the fallen angels? The devil, Satan.

Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Matthew 25:41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

Amils are not saying that the commands are from Abaddon/Apollyon, who we believe is Satan. It isn't about what they are commanded to do, it's about what God will allow them to do.

And they, of course, will gladly cause as much harm as they are allowed to do, just as God knows they will. It's actually God's will that they harm people without the seal of God because He wants their suffering to lead them to repentance. But, if you keep reading on in Revelation 9, they stubbornly refuse to repent even after the events of the sixth trumpet occur.

Rev 9:20 And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk: 21 Neither repented they of their murders, nor of their sorceries, nor of their fornication, nor of their thefts.

These locusts are likely fallen angels, so I don't disagree with that. I'm not convinced satan is their king, though I do acknowledge the possibility that he could be. But even if he is, the text never places him inside of the pit with the locusts. The text doesn't tell us one way or the other, which could mean he was locked up in the pit until it was opened, or that he was already outside of the pit when it was opened, since it is not a requirement that he has to be locked up inside of the pit in order to be their king.

Maria Billingsley · Jan 6, 2021

sovereigngrace said:
Partial Preterists are fixated with AD70 and the coming of Titus. This event is indeed preeminent in their thinking and thee central event in their theology. That is all they want to talk about. The rest of us look to the life, death and resurrection and His impending return at the end of the world as the preeminent and central events in history.

That is a shallow comment filled with a misleading and false view of those who read scripture in context. Be blessed.

sovereigngrace · Jan 6, 2021

Maria Billingsley said:
That is a shallow comment filled with a misleading and false view of those who read scripture in context. Be blessed.

I note what Preterists want to talk about in the eschatology forums - it is AD70 and the coming of Titus. I just find that disturbing. It is a wrong focus.

Check this forum and see if I am being unfair.

Maria Billingsley · Jan 6, 2021

sovereigngrace said:
I note what Preterists want to talk about in the eschatology forums - it is AD70 and the coming of Titus. I just find that disturbing. It is a wrong focus.

Check this forum and see if I am being unfair.

Yet the OP is directed to Amils. This is my last post.

sovereigngrace · Jan 6, 2021

Maria Billingsley said:
Yet the OP is directed to Amils. This is my last post.

The Op has nothing to do with AD 70 and the coming of Titus. But in your mind every subject relates to this. That is because it is the focus for you and your teaching. Classic Amils are obsessed with Christ, His sinless life, atoning death, victorious resurrection, His current reign over all His enemies and glorious climactic future return.

Extreme Preterism is obsession with AD70 and the coming of Titus.

sovereigngrace · Jan 6, 2021

DavidPT said:
The abyss mean the deep. I would think sea would also mean the deep. Both Revelation 13 and 17 tell us that beast ascends out of something.

Revelation 13:1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up(anabaino) out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.

In a real world example, if something rises up out of the sea, this indicates that this something has been submerged under the sea until it rises up out of it. That's what it would have to mean if a literal sea were involved, and that something is then seen rising up out of it. If something was already on the surface of the sea the entire time, it wouldn't make sense that it is said to rise up out of the sea. In a real world situation a ship would not fit this, but a submarine might. A literal sea is likely not even meant in Revelation 13:1 to begin with. I'm only using these real world examples to show what it would mean for something to rise up out of the sea, that it would have to mean that what is rising up has been submerged under the surface in the meantime.

And since both sea and the abyss describe things that are deep and that the deep part would be under the surface, this could mean that sea and the pit are being used interchangeably here. Notice that I said 'could'.

Revelation 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend(anabaino) out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

But even if sea in Revelation 13:1 is not meaning the BP, and maybe it isn't, why does that even matter, though? You would think that the beast still has to have already ascended out of the pit before Revelation 13:1 can be fulfilled, assuming sea in this context is not meaning the BP. How is one expected to make any sense out of Revelation 13:1 if none of that involves the beast ascending out of the pit, either before this event, or during this event?

You make a lot of good points.

The word interpreted bottomless pit in Revelation 20 is indeed abussos, meaning the deep. The deep of course is normally associated with the sea. This is interesting, especially when we note the detail given in Revelation 13:1 and 17:8. In both, we see the rise of the beast from a concealed and mysterious place before the end.

Revelation 13:1 records: “And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up [Gr. anabaino] out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.”

No sensible theologian would argue that the beast (with 7 heads) is a literal physical person, neither would they suggest that we are looking at the literal sea. It seems doubtful that the beast is submerged under the literal sea until just before the end. We are clearly looking at a figurative depiction.

The corresponding text, which basically teaches the same truth, is Revelation 17:8. It states: “The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend [Gr. anabaino] out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition (ruin): and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.”

Frankly, both the sea and the abyss describe that which belongs below the surface, in the dark, in the deep, and are hidden. It is likely that the sea and the abyss are being interchangeably used here in a symbolic sense to describe the restrained invisible realm where Satan and his minions operate before their release at the end. It all points toward the fact that we are looking at a spiritual abode/condition.

2 Thessalonians 2:7 speaks of the emergence of the beast (called the mystery of iniquity) from his restraint before the end. This is indeed said to happen before “that day.” The beast here arises from his restrained prison to perpetrate his evil designs for a little season before the second coming. This is the devil’s last throw.

My only puzzlement is why you so stubbornly refuse to entertain the possibility of bringing Revelation 9 and 20 into this equation. After all, they say and show the same thing about the one unitary kingdom. The release of Satan and his scorpions prior to the end (in Revelation 9:1-11) fits beautifully into this narrative. The release of Satan for a little season before the end (in Revelation 20:3, 7) fits beautifully into this narrative. It seems like you cannot open yourself to that possibility because it would force you to immediately abandon Premil.

Spiritual Jew · Jan 7, 2021

DavidPT said:
Revelation 13:15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed----and I saw the souls of them----which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands

How can there be zero involvment of Revelation 20:4 with that of Revelation 13:15? How can Revelation 13:15 be meaning after the thousand years when nothing in Revelation 20:4 is meaning after the thousand years? How is it even possible that Revelation 13:15 can be fulfilled to begin with unless the beast has already ascended out of the pit first, the fact this same FP is taken with the beast at the 2nd coming and both are cast alive into the LOF?

And if Revelation 20:4 involves Revelation 13:15 , it is illogical to conclude that the beast has not already ascended out of the pit when these particular saints recorded in Revelation 20:4 are initially martyred. I'm willing to consider anything if it's at least logical. There is nothing logical about Revelation 20:4---which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands---if that is supposed to be involving a period of time before the beast has ascended out of the pit.

It's difficult to know how to respond to you about this because your understanding of the dragon or the beast being in the pit is that it completely incapacitates them, but that is not my understanding of what it means for the dragon or the beast to be in the pit.

I've tried to explain my view to you on this before, but it's very difficult to do so as long as you insist that being in the pit equals being completely incapacitated and unable to do anything rather than it being a case of being restrained to an extent as opposed to being loosed and completely unrestrained.

These locusts are likely fallen angels, so I don't disagree with that. I'm not convinced satan is their king, though I do acknowledge the possibility that he could be. But even if he is, the text never places him inside of the pit with the locusts. The text doesn't tell us one way or the other, which could mean he was locked up in the pit until it was opened, or that he was already outside of the pit when it was opened, since it is not a requirement that he has to be locked up inside of the pit in order to be their king.

The angel of the pit is not inside the pit? Why is he called the angel of the pit then? I don't really think that makes much sense to think he wouldn't be there with the fallen angels he rules over. Why would the rest of the fallen angels be in there but not him? How could he be their king if he is not even in the same place where they are?

Original Happy Camper · Jan 10, 2021

BABerean2 said:
This Post is about parts A and B of your request.

Why does an angel come down from heaven with a key to open the bottomless pit in Revelation 9:1-2, unless it was locked previously?

Rev 9:1 Then the fifth angel sounded: And I saw a star fallen from heaven to the earth. To him was given the key to the bottomless pit.
Rev 9:2 And he opened the bottomless pit, and smoke arose out of the pit like the smoke of a great furnace. So the sun and the air were darkened because of the smoke of the pit.

In the verse below we find an angel who is already king of the angels of the bottomless pit.
Who is the king of the wicked angels?

Rev 9:11 And they had as king over them the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in Hebrew is Abaddon, but in Greek he has the name Apollyon.

In the verse below we find angels who are "bound" being released.

Rev 9:14 saying to the sixth angel who had the trumpet, "Release the four angels who are bound at the great river Euphrates."

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Rev 9 is about ISLAM

9:1-2 The Fifth Trumpet, The First Woe: Many Christian expositors, including Martin Luther, the great Reformer; Sir Isaac Newton, the famous scientist; and the historian, Edward Gibbon; have seen in the fifth and sixth trumpets the rise and progress of Islam. In view of the tremendous military, religious, economic and cultural impact Islam has had on the Christian world in the nearly fourteen hundred years since its rise in the 600s, this interpretation deserves our serious attention.

Islam, the religion of the followers of Mohammed, originated around A.D. 612.

As we have seen before, a “star” represents a leader. The “bottomless pit” comes from the Greek word “abbusos,” where we get our word “abyss,” and it means a desolate empty place; similar to the word “void” in Genesis 1:2. This star or great leader was Mohammed, the founder of Islam. The “bottomless pit” applies here to the vast desolate wastelands of present day Saudi Arabia, from which “the smoke,” the religion of Islam, issued forth, darkening the light of Christ and Christianity in all the lands that come under their control.

9:3 Out of the “smoke” comes “locusts.” When conditions are favorable a swarm of hundreds of millions of locusts may hatch at the same time. After exhausting the local food supply, they spread out gobbling up nearly every green plant in their path, and leaving desolation and famine behind them. By the time of his death in A.D. 632 Mohammed had united the Arabian Peninsula under Islam. Over the next 100 years the Muslim tide spread in a raging flood across the earth until the year 732 when they were narrowly defeated at the Battle of Tours in France. This victory saved Western Europe from conversion to Islam.

9:11-12 “Abaddon” in Hebrew and “Apollyon” in Greek are names that mean “the destroyer.”

read more here
Revelation 9 Commentary

BABerean2 · Jan 10, 2021

Original Happy Camper said:
As we have seen before, a “star” represents a leader.

Rev 1:20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.

Christ said "stars" are used as a symbol of angels in the Book of Revelation.

Rev 12:3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.
Rev_12:4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.

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Original Happy Camper · Jan 11, 2021

BABerean2 said:
Christ said "stars" are used as a symbol of angels in the Book of Revelation.

Satan, who was once an honored angel in heaven, had been ambitious for the more exalted honors which God had bestowed upon His Son. He became envious of Christ, and represented to the angels, who honored him as covering cherub, that he had not the honor conferred upon him which his position demanded. He asserted that he should be exalted equal in honor with Christ. Satan obtained sympathizers. Angels in heaven joined him in his rebellion, and fell with their leader from their high and holy estate, and were therefore expelled from heaven with him.

http://pdf.amazingdiscoveries.org/eBooks/EGWhite/Redemption.pdf

2 Corinthians 11:14 King James Version (KJV)
14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.

DavidPT · Jan 11, 2021

BABerean2 said:
Rev 1:20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.

Christ said "stars" are used as a symbol of angels in the Book of Revelation.

Rev 12:3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.
Rev_12:4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.

.

While that might be true that stars are used as a symbol for angels in Revelation, does that mean every time star is used in Revelation, it is always meaning angels?

Revelation 2:28 And I will give him the morning star.

Is star meaning angels here?

Revelation 8:10 And the third angel sounded, and there fell a great star from heaven, burning as it were a lamp, and it fell upon the third part of the rivers, and upon the fountains of waters;
Revelation 8:11 And the name of the star is called Wormwood: and the third part of the waters became wormwood; and many men died of the waters, because they were made bitter.

Is star meaning angels here?

Revelation 22:16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

Is star meaning angels here?

Revelation 6:13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

Are stars meaning angels here?

Revelation 8:12 And the fourth angel sounded, and the third part of the sun was smitten, and the third part of the moon, and the third part of the stars; so as the third part of them was darkened, and the day shone not for a third part of it, and the night likewise.

Are stars meaning angels here?

Revelation 12:1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:

Are stars meaning angels here?

BABerean2 · Jan 11, 2021

DavidPT said:
While that might be true that stars are used as a symbol for angels in Revelation, does that mean every time star is used in Revelation, it is always meaning angels?

Revelation 2:28 And I will give him the morning star.

Is star meaning angels here?

Revelation 8:10 And the third angel sounded, and there fell a great star from heaven, burning as it were a lamp, and it fell upon the third part of the rivers, and upon the fountains of waters;
Revelation 8:11 And the name of the star is called Wormwood: and the third part of the waters became wormwood; and many men died of the waters, because they were made bitter.

Is star meaning angels here?

Revelation 22:16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

Is star meaning angels here?

Revelation 6:13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

Are stars meaning angels here?

Revelation 8:12 And the fourth angel sounded, and the third part of the sun was smitten, and the third part of the moon, and the third part of the stars; so as the third part of them was darkened, and the day shone not for a third part of it, and the night likewise.

Are stars meaning angels here?

Revelation 12:1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:

Are stars meaning angels here?

Angels are also messengers.
Since Venus is the brightest of the stars ( A planet looks like a star to the naked eye.), Christ could be described as the brightest of the stars. "The Morning Star"

Therefore, I would say many of the passages you provided could be using the word "star" as a symbol of angels.
However, some passages are not as clear as others.
It would be my guess that John did not totally understand several of the visions he was given to record.

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Which passages in particular in Revelation do Amils use to support all of the following?

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