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Saint Steven

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Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of Jesus.
So true.
Many have made a god out of a book with little regard for the author.

That's how you end up worshiping the editors instead of the author.

Matthew 7:23
Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’
 
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Clare73

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Clare73 said:
Assertion without Biblical demonstration is without Biblical merit.
Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of Jesus.
Precisely. . .and there will be no grace at the Judgment (Mt 7:23 25; Lk 13:25-27),
only the terrifying power (2Th 2:8, 10) of the Judge (Jn 5:22, 27, 8:26, 12:48; Mt 25:31-33),
who judges those who are not in him, while he saves those who are.

And now for your textual Biblical demonstration of your argument?
 
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FaithWillDo

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I wonder if "wrath" could be replaced by "zeal" in some/many cases...

Yes, you are right. Wrath is a very poor translation. I believe it should be translated as "great passion". Wrath implies God is out of control and wants revenge on those who do wrong. Nothing could be further from the truth. God is in complete control and every person is exactly the way God wants them to be at this particular time. He made us a flawed vessel and when He decides, He will destroy that vessel (Old Man) and make us into a new vessel (New Man in Christ). His great passion is to destroy the Old Man and make us into the New Man. He is Love and His Love never fails. Everything God does within this creation is out of His LOVE for us. He created evil and gave us an experience of evil. But when His purpose for evil is fulfilled, God will end the evil He created. This is the patience of the saints. We must wait on the Lord finish His work in producing new children of God. It takes two ages of time and then God will be "all in all". Everything He does is for His purpose of creating new children (the true meaning of life).

1Tim 2:3-6 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; 4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

Joe
 
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Light of the East

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I'm not familiar with Latin.
Silent? Not in the above, in Rev 21:1-5 they remain in the fire in the new creation.

Lex talionis means "the punishment fits the offense." It is the principle of justice as found explained to the Hebrew people when God gave the law to the Israelites. Under lex talionis, you do not hang a child for stealing a loaf of bread, as those wonderful paragons of virtue, the Pilgrims did. You make the person restore the bread to you. If a man was caught stealing a sheep, he was made to pay back either the sheep by another sheep, or he was made to pay back the value of the sheep.

So, under this description of God's law, tell me what sin is worth an eternity in fire and torment?
 
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Light of the East

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QUOTE="Saint Steven

Many have made a god out of a book with little regard for the author.

That's how you end up worshiping the editors instead of the author.

Wow! That qualifies as the quote of the month!!

And no one would dare suggest that the editors had an agenda, would they? No one might suggest that they were blind or working in the dark, would they? No one might suggest that the editors, like the admission of Augustine, didn't even understand the Greek they were reading.

Worshiping the editors? Spot on, brother!
 
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Light of the East

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Precisely. . .and there will be no grace at the Judgment (Mt 7:23 25; Lk 13:25-27),
only the terrifying power (2Th 2:8, 10) of the Judge; (Jn 5:22, 27, 8:26, 12:48; Mt 25:31-33),
who judges those who are not in him, while he saves those who are.

And now your textual Biblical demonstration of your argument?

You apparently are not listening at all. We keep working with you to try to show you that your "sola scriptura" position is based on flawed interpretations not faithful to the Greek text and a complete misunderstanding of the character of God. Your interpretation of the Bible has created a God who looks like some evil character from a Marvel comic and then you ignore the Greek and bend the Scriptures to fit that understanding.

 
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Clare73

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Clare73 said:
In Rev 21:8, the goats remain in the Lake of Fire in the new creation (Rev 21:1-5), the next age.
Lex talionis means "the punishment fits the offense." It is the principle of justice as found explained to the Hebrew people when God gave the law to the Israelites. Under lex talionis, you do not hang a child for stealing a loaf of bread, as those wonderful paragons of virtue, the Pilgrims did. You make the person restore the bread to you. If a man was caught stealing a sheep, he was made to pay back either the sheep by another sheep, or he was made to pay back the value of the sheep.

So, under this description of God's law, tell me what sin is worth an eternity in fire and torment
When I say I asked but you didn't answer, it's not you actually ignored my question, it's the above.
You answer. . .but not the question/issue presented.

As in the above, you do not address the Scriptures presented, instead you seek to unseat them with human reasoning.

I don't take my theology from human reasoning, I take it from the Word of God written, as in
Rev 21:8 (goats remaining in the fire) in the new creation (Rev 21:1-5),
Mk 9:43, 47-48; Mt 12:32; Lk 3:17; Rev 14:11, 19:2,3, 20:15, 21:8.
You didn't answer my question. What is "lex talionis?"
Please describe for me the biblical punishment as found in Scripture - lex talionis.
You mean this lex talionis, of Lev 24:18-21--eye for eye, tooth for tooth?

1) punishing fire (Lev 10:1) with fire (Lev 10:2),
2) punishing those who refused to be ruled by One who loves them (Lev 26:14-15), by giving them over to be ruled by those who hate them (Lev 26:17),
3) punishing those who refuse to fear him (Lev 26:23), with fear of everything else (Lev 26:36-38),
4) punishing the lust of the Levite's concubines (Jdg 19:2), with lust (Jdg 19:25),
5) punishing morally insensitive Nabal (1Sa 25:10-11), with insensitivity (1Sa 25:37-38),
6) punishing Michal's reproach of David for dancing before the ark (2Sa 6:20), with the reproach of barrenness (2Sa 6:23),
7) punishing David's killing of Uriah by the sword of the Ammonites (2Sa 12:9), with a sword upon David's house (2Sa 12:10),
8) punishing David's lying with another man's wife in secret (2Sa 11:3-4), with another man lying with his wife in public (2Sa 12:11-12),
9) punishing David's numbering of the fighting men (2Sa 24:2), with a plague which reduced the number of the fighting men (2Sa 24:5),
10) punishing dishonor (Ro 1:21) to God, with dishonor to themselves (Ro 1:24),
11) punishing spiritual prostitution (idolatry--Ro 1:23), with sexual depravity (Ro 1:24-27),
12) punishing suppression of God's truth (Ro 1:18, 25), with abandonment to a depraved mind (Ro 1:28),
13) punishing trouble with trouble (2Th 1:6) and,
14) punishing harm with harm (2Pe 2:13).

Is that the lex talionis you want me to describe?

And this punishing God is also our loving God.


Our loving God does not sacrifice justice to love. . .either in the above. . . or on the cross... or in Rev 20:14-15 in the Lake of Fire.
.
 
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Light of the East

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The "over and out" is still pending. . .
When I say I asked but you didn't answer, it's not you actually ignored my question, it's the above.]
You answer, but not the question/issue presented.


You do not address the Scriptures presented, instead you seek to unseat them human reasoning.

I don't take my theology from human reasoning, I take it from the Word of God written, as in Rev 21:1-5;
Mk 9:43, 47-48; Mt 12:32; Lk 3:17; Rev 14:11, 19:2,3.

It's been fun, but I'm done. You will not listen to facts, you keep ignoring the fact that you are using false and corrupted translations of the Greek, and you apparently are not open to saying "Let me study this and get back to you." You appear to leap to the keyboard to spout off your nonsense without any reflection on what has been said to you. You keep saying the same things over and over again....and pounding the Bible frantically rather than trying to understand what it actually is saying.

Finally, there is nowhere in the Bible where the Bible says "The Bible alone is all you need." If that were true, you would never have any understanding of things like "Does Christ have one nature or two. One will or two?" The heretic Arias, who denied Christ's divinity, when standing before the Council of Nicea, defended his heresy strictly from Scripture. Bet you didn't even know that.

So, thanks for the discussion, but I think we are done here.
 
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Clare73

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It's been fun, but I'm done.
Yes. . .I think a graceful retreat is probably the best idea here, in light of your inability to present any textual Biblical demonstrations in support of your arguments.
You will not listen to facts,
you keep ignoring the fact that you are using false and corrupted translations of the Greek,
Now that's false and you know it, unless you haven't been paying attention. . .

My argument on never-ending hell is based on Mk 9:43, 47-48; Mt 12:32; Lk 3:17;
Rev 14:11, 19:2, 3, 20:15, 21:8. . .none of which English translations are challenged by anyone...
and which you are unable to Biblically address.

Just as the lex taliones I presented in my previous post #307 are the
punishments of our loving God, whose divine justice you reject.
and you apparently are not open to saying "Let me study this and get back to you." You appear to leap to the keyboard to spout off your nonsense without any reflection on what has been said to you. You keep saying the same things over and over again....and
pounding the Bible frantically rather than trying to understand what it actually is saying.
And with all that "pounding," you still did not attempt to address it.

But this takes us to the heart of the matter: the Bible is my authority for divine truth,
while human reasoning is your authority for divine truth
.
At least you got that part right!
Finally, there is nowhere in the Bible where the Bible says "The Bible alone is all you need."
"Do not go beyond what is written." (1Co 4:6).
Being the arbiter of all spiritual truth wherever it is, is not the same as "being all you need."
The Bible is the judge of that truth of "all you need."
If that were true, you would never have any understanding of things like "Does Christ have one nature or two. One will or two?"
And where God makes an end to teaching, we must make an end to knowing.

The rest is simply our best attempt to explain what we don't understand.
The heretic Arias, who denied Christ's divinity, when standing before the Council of Nicea, defended his heresy strictly from Scripture. Bet you didn't even know that.
My point exactly. . .

Anything can be defended from Scripture as long as the defense is not restricted to Scripture having to agree with, and not being allowed to contradict, itself.

I note you didn't present the counter argument showing Arias' contradiction of other Scriptures.
So, thanks for the discussion, but I think we are done here.
Agreed. . .with differing authorities for truth--Word of God written vs. human reasoning--we have no way to resolve our differences.
 
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Clare73

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You apparently are not listening at all. We keep working with you to try to show you that your "sola scriptura" position is based on flawed interpretations not faithful to the Greek text
False. . .there is no bending of the Greek by me in Mk 9:43, 47-48; Mt 12:32; Lk 3:17;
Rev 14:11, 19:2, 3, 20:15, 21:8,. . .and you know it.
Nothing in the Greek of those texts is disputed by anyone.
and a complete misunderstanding of the character of God. Your interpretation of the Bible has created a God who looks like some evil character from a Marvel comic and then you ignore the Greek and bend the Scriptures to fit that understanding.
And yet you do not, because you cannot, present any textual Biblical demonstration of your assertion. Therefore it remains that

Assertion without Biblical demonstration is assertion without Biblical merit.
 
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Saint Steven

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And now for your textual Biblical demonstration of your argument?
The one with the most Bible verses wins? Is that how this works?

We are stuck arguing Universalism with a Damnationist biased translation.

Somehow your Bible verses are MORE biblical than ours? Not sure how that works.
 
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FaithWillDo

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The one with the most Bible verses wins? Is that how this works?

We are stuck arguing Universalism with a Damnationist biased translation.

Somehow your Bible verses are MORE biblical than ours? Not sure how that works.

Steve,
I have being reading your responses on this thread. From what I gather, you believe that Jesus Christ is actually the Savior of the world and will complete the mission that the Father gave Him. Is that correct?

If so, do you understand His plan to accomplish it?
Joe
 
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Sheila Davis

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What do you make of this?

Romans 4:4-5
Now to the one who works, wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation. 5 However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness.
___ Faith without works is dead as well as work without faith is dead. Both are required.
 
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Saint Steven

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Steve,
I have being reading your responses on this thread. From what I gather, you believe that Jesus Christ is actually the Savior of the world and will complete the mission that the Father gave Him. Is that correct?

If so, do you understand His plan to accomplish it?
Joe
Hey, Joe; thanks for reading and following my posts. Welcome to the forum.

Yes, I do "believe that Jesus Christ is actually the Savior of the world and will complete the mission that the Father gave Him." --- In a sense he has already completed it. When he said "It is finished", it was a done deal.

Do I "understand His plan to accomplish it?" That part is a bit sketchy. We can see how things were put in motion and how things will end. But things are a bit fuzzy in the middle. What is your take on this? Thanks.
 
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Saint Steven

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___ Faith without works is dead as well as work without faith is dead. Both are required.
Bible versus Bible. Who wins, who loses?
If that is true, what was the Apostle trying to say in this scripture? Does God in fact justify the ungodly and credit it as righteousness?

Romans 4:4-5
Now to the one who works, wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation. 5 However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness.
 
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Clare73

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The one with the most Bible verses wins? Is that how this works?
You didn't know that?
We are stuck arguing Universalism with a Damnationist biased translation.

Somehow your Bible verses are MORE biblical than ours? Not sure how that works.
Nice misrepresentation. .when the argument I presented was based in no verses with "biased translation."
The lack of soundness in your argument is not based on whoever has the most verses, and
you know it.

Your argument is not sound because of its claim that Scripture does not teach an unending hell, when the undisputed translation of the Scriptures I present show that it does. And I don't need numbers of them to make my point. Your doctrine contradicts Scripture if I present only one verse contrary to it.
It's not about numbers, it's about claiming Scripture does not present an unending fire of hell.

Feel free to Biblically show that Mk 9:43, 47-48; Mt 12:32; Lk 3:17; Rev 14:11, 19:2,3, 20:15, 21:8
do not present an unending fire of hell. No disputed translations are involved here.
 
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Hey, Joe; thanks for reading and following my posts. Welcome to the forum.

Yes, I do "believe that Jesus Christ is actually the Savior of the world and will complete the mission that the Father gave Him." --- In a sense he has already completed it. When he said "It is finished", it was a done deal.

Do I "understand His plan to accomplish it?" That part is a bit sketchy. We can see how things were put in motion and how things will end. But things are a bit fuzzy in the middle. What is your take on this? Thanks.

Dear Steve,
It is very nice to meet a believer who doesn't believe that Christ is a failure and who doesn't harm most of His creation in literal fire for all eternity for no loving purpose.

I do believe I can help take away some of the mystery of how Christ is working to save the world. I have written a short paper that is very direct on this subject. It teaches the pathway of Salvation and a little bit more. I can email it to you if you like. What is your email address:

Joe
 
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FaithWillDo

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Hey, Joe; thanks for reading and following my posts. Welcome to the forum.

Yes, I do "believe that Jesus Christ is actually the Savior of the world and will complete the mission that the Father gave Him." --- In a sense he has already completed it. When he said "It is finished", it was a done deal.

Do I "understand His plan to accomplish it?" That part is a bit sketchy. We can see how things were put in motion and how things will end. But things are a bit fuzzy in the middle. What is your take on this? Thanks.

Dear Steve,
I just made a post to "Spiritual Jew" in the thread entitled "Concerning the return of Jesus" that is related to this subject. It may be of interest to you.
Joe
 
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1213

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...All means all. It does not mean "only all of a certain group." as the Calvinists aver. It doesn't mean "all of one kind" or "all of one race". All means every single one - period. ...

I agree that all means all. the difference is in what is meant for all. Salvation is for all, but not all accept it. And if person doesn’t accept it, it is not useful for him.
 
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I agree that all means all. the difference is in what is meant for all. Salvation is for all, but not all accept it. And if person doesn’t accept it, it is not useful for him.

Dear 1213,
Why do you believe not everyone will accept it? Is there any scripture for your belief? Or does your belief come from what you have been told?

Actually, scripture clearly states the opposite of your belief and says that everyone WILL accept Christ:

Phi 2:10-11 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Rev 5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

But there is a problem. Christ says that no one understands Him nor does anyone seek after God. And more than that - our carnal mind we have from birth is enmity (hatred) against God.

Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

Rom 3:10-11 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

In that carnal, God hating, spiritually blind condition how can anyone ever be saved? The only way is for Christ to come to us just as He came to Paul on the Damascus Road. And just as Paul quickly called Christ "Lord”…

1 Cor 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

…so will everyone who receives the gift of the Holy Spirit. And because of our carnal condition, He gives us that gift without us ever asking for it. Once we receive the gift of the Spirit, we will all respond just as Paul did.

Christ even acknowledges that He is the cause of our response:

Prov 16:1 The preparations of the heart in man, and the answer of the tongue, is from the LORD.

He prepares our heart and gives us the answer of our tongue, just as He did for Paul.

Did you know that Paul's conversion is the pattern Christ uses to save everyone?

1Tim 1:16 Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.

Our salvation is 100% the work of Christ lest anyone should boast. If it was any other way, the Father would reject us because it would require "works" on our part and then we would have something to boast about. We could claim that we were wiser or smarter than those who rejected Christ. But God is not a respecter of persons and we all must travel the same path that leads to Him. He promises to come to each of us at a time of HIS choosing and give us the gifts that He gave Paul.

John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

And when He comes to us, we will call Him "Lord" just as Paul did.

We are all saved because it is God's "will" for us all to be saved. He is that powerful.

John 1:12–13 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

2Pet 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Since Christ is not willing for anyone to perish (the true penalty of sin, not some fabled place of literal fire), who can stop Him??? Is mankind any match for God? Certainly not!

Dan 4:35 And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing; and he doeth according to his will in the army of the heavens, and among the inhabitants of the earth; and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?

Everyone's salvation is assured and is in the hands of Christ. Only the timing of our salvation varies. In this present age, Christ is only coming to His chosen Elect - His First Fruits of the harvest mankind. If a person is not chosen for salvation now, their salvation will come to them in the final age - the Lake of Fire age.

Joe
 
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