EO and Universalism

Jesse Dornfeld

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It dawns on me from reading an article that was referred to me that the way EO see things is in fact completely different from what I have understood from my roots. Things such as sin being a therapeutic measure to draw us closer to divinity is in fact completely removed from the way I have historically understood what it means to be "saved". This raises a very perplexing question for me in the question of death, which is not a punishment according to EO but I am not sure how to classify it at all. It seems that EO, though they think they are the True Church, at the same time might even consider themselves Heterodox insofar as learning from our sin is concerned. And of course this leaves the question of what is hell? What is eternal punishment, and further, do all humans make it into heaven, however EO might classify what heaven actually is.

Thanks for your answers on this.
 
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Pavel Mosko

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I think you are going to hear a lot about the River of Fire. But I know I have heard lots of EO quote official saints that have the typical view of heaven and hell that you would fit in the west, aka as places you go to etc. Rather than a state of being (determined or interpreted by your relationship with God)

The River of Fire - Kalomiros - Glory to God for All Things
 
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Jude1:3Contendforthefaith

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Some Holy Church Father Writings Against Universalism


Also,

• 5th Ecumenical Council - Second Council of Constantinople -
(553 A.D.)

CHURCH FATHERS: Second Council of Constantinople (A.D. 553)



• The Anathemas of the Emperor Justinian Against Origen
____________________________________________________________


9.

"If anyone says or thinks that the punishment of demons and of impious men is only temporary, and will one day have an end, and that a restoration (ἀποκατάστασις) will take place of demons and of impious men,
Let Him Be Anathema.

Anathema to Origen to that Adamantius, who set forth these opinions together with his nefarious and execrable and Wicked Doctrine and to whomsoever there is who thinks thus, or defends these opinions, or in any way hereafter at any time shall presume to protect them."



main-image-2.jpeg


.
 
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Jesse Dornfeld

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I think you are going to hear a lot about the River of Fire. But I know I have heard lots of EO quote official saints that have the typical view of heaven and hell that you would fit in the west, aka as places you go to etc. Rather than a state of being (determined or interpreted by your relationship with God)

The River of Fire - Kalomiros - Glory to God for All Things

Thank you for this resource, I am working my way through it (slow reader).

@Jude1:3Contendforthefaith, I will try and get to that when I can, but thank you for your direct answer.
 
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Lukaris

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I do not know what hell might be but it is best, I believe, to be feared ( Matthew 10:28 etc.). Still, we can have hope for anyone really since only God knows the good from the bad ( John 5:24-30).

St. Maximos the Confessor, 580-662 AD, ( or a paraphrase of his teaching) states,

“All, whether angels or men, who in everything have maintained a natural justice in their disposition, and have made themselves actively receptive to the inner principles of nature in a way that accords with the universal principle of well being, will participate totally in the divine life that irradiates them; for they have submitted their will to God’s will. Those who in all things have failed to maintain a natural justice in their disposition, and have been actively disruptive of the inner principles of nature in a way that conflicts with the universal principle of well being, will lapse completely from divine life, in accordance with their dedication to what lacks being; for they have opposed their will to God’s will. It is this that separates them from God, for the principle of well being, vivified by good actions and illumined by divine life is not operative in their will.” Philokalia, vol.2, (4th c., sets of various texts) #54.

Matthew 25:31-46 also comes to mind.
 
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ArmyMatt

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heaven and hell are more conditions of the soul than places. so, for those who have lived a life of unrepentant sin and a desire against God, God's presence torments them for eternity. they experience His love as inescapable wrath and judgment.

universalism, in the sense that there will not be a hell, is heresy.
 
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Jesse Dornfeld

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heaven and hell are more conditions of the soul than places. so, for those who have lived a life of unrepentant sin and a desire against God, God's presence torments them for eternity. they experience His love as inescapable wrath and judgment.

universalism, in the sense that there will not be a hell, is heresy.

How does the EO Church see the resurrection of the dead then?
 
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ArmyMatt

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How does the EO Church see the resurrection of the dead then?

they are raised and separated into the sheep and goats. there is still separation (sinners aren't gonna be in agony standing next to saints), but what makes both places different is the souls of those in them.
 
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Light of the East

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Some Holy Church Father Writings Against Universalism


Also,

• 5th Ecumenical Council - Second Council of Constantinople -
(553 A.D.)

CHURCH FATHERS: Second Council of Constantinople (A.D. 553)



• The Anathemas of the Emperor Justinian Against Origen
____________________________________________________________


9.

"If anyone says or thinks that the punishment of demons and of impious men is only temporary, and will one day have an end, and that a restoration (ἀποκατάστασις) will take place of demons and of impious men,
Let Him Be Anathema.

Anathema to Origen to that Adamantius, who set forth these opinions together with his nefarious and execrable and Wicked Doctrine and to whomsoever there is who thinks thus, or defends these opinions, or in any way hereafter at any time shall presume to protect them."



main-image-2.jpeg


.

Except that there is nothing in the valid canons of Constantinople II which mentions Apokatastasis. That condemnation belongs to the canons which were added later by Emperor Justinian. He had neither the authority nor the right to do what he did regarding the council. In fact, historical evidence shows that these canons are completely fraudulent and of suspicious background. And that is not just David Bentley Hart saying that:


"The Fifth Ecumenical Council, or Constantinople II, has become the source of much contention in recent years due to the increasing investigation of all events which took place in this council. From the website, Papal Encyclicals Online [1], we find the following important information regarding this council:

The council did not debate ecclesiastical discipline nor did it issue disciplinary canons. Our edition does not include the text of the anathemas against Origen since recent studies have shown that these anathemas cannot be attributed to this council. This is one of several critical observations regarding this council.

Here is another:

“The canon does not specify which of Origen’s teachings are condemned, nor do the acts record any discussion of them by the council fathers. Origen is simply included in a list of previously condemned heretics. This is where things get tricky. The others in the list were condemned by previous ecumenical councils and their heresies were well known; but those councils had never condemned Origen. Which teachings of Origen, therefore, did the bishops of the Fifth Council believe to be antithetical to the apostolic faith? We do not know—neither the canons nor the acts of the council tell us. This point needs to be stressed. We must not assume that because the council fathers condemned Origen by name they therefore intended to condemn his teaching on apokatastasis. The establishment of conciliar dogma requires more than guesswork and conjectural inference. F. Nutcombe Oxenham, 19th century Roman Catholic theologian and translator of Karl Josef von Hefele’s monumental A HISTORY OF THE COUNCILS OF THE CHURCH succinctly states the historical problem and interpretive task:

Let me say to any who may consider it an important matter to be assured whether Origen was, or was not condemned, by some ancient Synod, two things—(1) That if it could be ever so conclusively proved that “Origen was condemned” by the Fifth Council, this would afford no evidence whatever that he was condemned on account of his doctrine of restitution, since he held a great many other doctrines much more open to blame than this one. And then (2) Supposing Origen’s doctrine of restitution had been “by itself condemned,” this would be no condemnation of the doctrine of restitution, as now held. e.g. by Mr. Jukes or by Dr Farrar [two 19th century exponents of universal salvation]; since their two doctrines of restitution are in many important points essentially different. ” [2]

Examine the original canons of Constantinople II, that is, the ones which were not severely tampered with, and you find nothing condemning Apokatastasis.

[1] Second Council of Constantinople – 553 A.D. - Papal Encyclicals

[2] F. Nutombe Oxenham, What is the Truth as to Everlasting Punishment?, p. 35. Though dated, this book is essential reading. The author discusses the principal first millennium sources for our knowledge of the Fifth Ecumenical Council with regards to its condemnation of Origen and its condemnation of apokatastasis.
 
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Light of the East

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How does the EO Church see the resurrection of the dead then?

There is no official catechism of Orthodoxy as exists in Roman Catholicism. There is no official statement regarding the resurrection of the dead as it relates to universal salvation. If you want an official statement on the resurrection of the dead, it is found in the Statement of Faith, aka the Nicene Creed, which we recite every Liturgy.

Numbers of Orthodox are coming to the conclusion that Apokatastasis was taught by the Early Church and was trashed by the Roman Catholic Church. This includes some rather luminary persons, such as Fr. John Behr, who is a Patristics Scholar and who teaches at St. Vladimir's Orthodox Seminary. His position is well-known, yet the seminary has not thrown him out on his ear as of yet.. Why? Maybe because a Patristics scholar can show that the Early Church taught and believed in Apokatastasis, and therefore defend his position against the Roman Catholic heresy that God created mankind for the intent of damning the most of them, which is the conclusion you must draw if you believe that escatology shapes protology. [1]

Final thought: where is the Good News if 95% of all people were created for no other purpose than to wind up in a state of eternal torment? Doesn't sound much like good news to me.

[1] All orthodox Christians confess that God has freely created the cosmos ex nihilo. Hart notes that this doctrine not only has metaphysical but also moral implications:

"Perhaps the first theological insight I learned from Gregory of Nyssa is that the Christian doctrine of creatio ex nihilo is not merely a cosmological or metaphysical claim, but also an eschatological claim about the world’s relation to God, and for that reason a moral claim about the nature of God in himself. In the end of all things is their beginning, and only from the perspective of the end can one know what they are, why they have been made, and who the God is who has called them forth from nothingness. Anything willingly done is done toward an end; and anything done toward an end is defined by that end."

God creates the world from the eschaton. The conclusion of the story envelops the beginning; the meaning of the story is revealed in its end. Is God truly good? Can his love triumph over evil and sin? Are we living in a tragedy or a comedy? Let’s skip ahead and see how the story ends, for the ending of this particular story necessarily discloses the character of its author. Protology folds into eschatology. When the last trump sounds and the final judgment is declared, we shall see that God’s antecedent will (“his universal will for creation apart from the fall”) will prove identical to his consequent will (“his particular will regarding each creature in consequence of the fall”).10 “Under the canopy of God’s omnipotence and omniscience,” explains Hart, “the consequent is already wholly virtually present in the antecedent.”11 The final future defines the eternal identity of the Creator. Hart confronts the reader with a discomforting dilemma: if one or more rational beings are condemned to everlasting torment, it is divinely intended and God is revealed as their tormentor; yet this cannot be, if the gospel is true:

God goes forth in all beings and in all beings returns to himself, as even Aquinas (following a long Christian tradition) affirms; but God also does this not as an expression of his dialectical struggle with some recalcitrant exteriority—some external obstacle to be surmounted or some unrealized possibility to be achieved—but rather as the manifestation of an inexhaustible power wholly possessed by the divine in peaceful liberty in eternity. God has no need of the world; he creates it not because he is dependent upon it, but because its dependency on him is a fitting expression of the bounty of his goodness. So all that the doctrine of creation adds to the basic metaphysical picture is the further assurance that in this divine outpouring there is no element of the “irrational”: nothing purely spontaneous, or organic, or even mechanical, beyond the power of God’s rational freedom. This, however, also means that within the story of creation, viewed from its final cause, there can be no residue of the pardonably tragic, no irrecuperable or irreconcilable remainder left behind at the end of the tale; for, if there were, this irreconcilable excess would also be something God has directly caused, as an entailment freely assumed in his act of creating, and so as an expression of who he freely is. This is no more than the simple logic of the absolute.
 
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Light of the East

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BTW -- Just for the record, I am not yet officially Orthodox. I am praying that my reception into the Church will take place this year. Thought I'd mention that before someone else does, along with smearing my character.
 
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Light of the East

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QUOTE="Lukaris, I do not know what hell might be but it is best, I believe, to be feared ( Matthew 10:28 etc.). Still, we can have hope for anyone really since only God knows the good from the bad ( John 5:24-30).

Of course it is to be feared, and anyone who believes in Apokatastasis should warn people that the wicked will be recompensed for their evil deeds in the next life, according to what both Jesus and Paul taught. I would not want to be in the shoes of some of the people I see living the open lives of wickedness that they are living. While the Evangelicals believe in a number of heretical ideas, the one thing you can give them is that they do act as if hell is real. They preach on it, warn people about it, give out tracts and do TV programs trying to keep people from having that horrible experience.

St. Maximos the Confessor, 580-662 AD, ( or a paraphrase of his teaching) states,

“All, whether angels or men, who in everything have maintained a natural justice in their disposition, and have made themselves actively receptive to the inner principles of nature in a way that accords with the universal principle of well being, will participate totally in the divine life that irradiates them; for they have submitted their will to God’s will. Those who in all things have failed to maintain a natural justice in their disposition, and have been actively disruptive of the inner principles of nature in a way that conflicts with the universal principle of well being, will lapse completely from divine life, in accordance with their dedication to what lacks being; for they have opposed their will to God’s will. It is this that separates them from God, for the principle of well being, vivified by good actions and illumined by divine life is not operative in their will.” Philokalia, vol.2, (4th c., sets of various texts) #54.

Matthew 25:31-46 also comes to mind.

Oh boy!!

Considering the Greek word kolasis ("punishment", Mt.25:46, KJV) can refer to a corrective punishment, that should tell the reader of Matthew 25:46 what the possible duration of aionios ("everlasting", KJV) is & that it may refer to a finite punishment. Why? Because since if is corrective, it is with the purpose of bringing the person corrected to salvation. Once saved the person no longer has need of such a punishment & it ends. So it isn't "everlasting". Therefore this passage could just as easily support universalism as anything else.

From a review of a book by Ilaria Ramelli, namely The Christian Doctrine of Apokatastasis: A Critical Assessment from the New Testament to Eriugena (Brill, 2013. 890 pp): [1]

"...in a passage in Origen in which he speaks of “life after aionios life” (160). As a native speaker of Greek he does not see a contradiction in such phrasing; that is because aionios life does not mean “unending, eternal life,” but rather “life of the next age.” Likewise the Bible uses the word kolasis to describe the punishment of the age to come. Aristotle distinguished kolasis from timoria, the latter referring to punishment inflicted “in the interest of him who inflicts it, that he may obtain satisfaction.” On the other hand, kolasis refers to correction, it “is inflicted in the interest of the sufferer” (quoted at 32). Thus Plato can affirm that it is good to be punished (to undergo kolasis), because in this way a person is made better (ibid.). This distinction survived even past the time of the writing of the New Testament, since Clement of Alexandria affirms that God does not timoreitai, punish for retribution, but he does kolazei, correct sinners."

"Augustine raised the argument that since aionios in Mt. 25:46 referred to both life and punishment, it had to carry the same duration in both cases. However, he failed to consider that the duration of aionios is determined by the subject to which it refers. For example, when aionios referred to the duration of Jonah’s entrapment in the fish, it was limited to three days. To a slave, aionios referred to his life span. To the Aaronic priesthood, it referred to the generation preceding the Melchizedek priesthood. To Solomon’s temple, it referred to 400 years. To God it encompasses and transcends time altogether."

"Thus, the word cannot have a set value. It is a relative term and its duration depends upon that with which it is associated. It is similar to what “tall” is to height. The size of a tall building can be 300 feet, a tall man six feet, and a tall dog three feet. Black Beauty was a great horse, Abraham Lincoln a great man, and Yahweh the GREAT God. Though God is called “great,” the word “great” is neither eternal nor divine. The horse is still a horse. An adjective relates to the noun it modifies. In relation to God, “great” becomes GREAT only because of who and what God is. This silences the contention that aion must always mean forever because it modifies God. God is described as the God of Israel and the God of Abraham. This does not mean He is not the God of Gentiles, or the God of you and me. Though He is called the God of the “ages,” He nonetheless remains the God who transcends the ages."

"In addition, Augustine’s reasoning does not hold up in light of Romans. 16:25, 26 and Habakkuk 3:6. Here, in both cases, the same word is used twice—with God and with something temporal. “In accord with the revelation of a secret hushed in times eonian, yet manifested now…according to the injunction of the eonian God” (Romans. 16:25, 26 CLT). An eonian secret revealed at some point cannot be eternal even though it is revealed by the eonian God. Eonian does not make God eternal, but God makes eonian eternal. “And the everlasting mountains were scattered.…His ways are everlasting” (Habakkuk. 3:6). Mountains are not eternal, though they will last a very long time. God’s ways however, are eternal, because He is eternal."

In other words......proper translation of the Scriptures, something that Roman Catholic translators made an utter hash of, is critical.
 
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Jude1:3Contendforthefaith

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Except that there is nothing in the valid canons of Constantinople II which mentions Apokatastasis. That condemnation belongs to the canons which were added later by Emperor Justinian. He had neither the authority nor the right to do what he did regarding the council.

The 7th Ecumenical Council (787 A.D.) Affirmed The first 6 Councils :

NPNF2-14 The Decree of the Holy, Great, Ecumenical Synod, the Second of Nice.


"Therefore, with all diligence, making a thorough examination and analysis, and following the trend of the truth, we diminish nought, we add nought, but We Preserve Unchanged All Things which pertain to the Catholic Church, And Following The Six Ecumenical Synods, especially that which met in this illustrious metropolis of Nice, as also that which was afterwards gathered together in the God-protected Royal City."



Also

NPNF2-14 Epitome of the Definition of the Iconoclastic Conciliabulum

(19)
"If anyone does not accept this our Holy and Ecumenical Seventh Synod, let him be anathema from the Father and the Son and the Holy Ghost, and from The Seven Holy Ecumenical Synods!"



.
 
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Light of the East

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The 7th Ecumenical Council Affirmed The first 6 Councils

Do you honestly think I would make the statements I make without doing extensive research into the background of what is being discussed? Here are the accepted canons of the Council. Find the word "Apkatastasis" in any of them.

1. If anyone will not confess that the Father, Son and holy Spirit have one nature or substance, that they have one power and authority, that there is a consubstantial Trinity, one Deity to be adored in three subsistences or persons: let him be anathema. There is only one God and Father, from whom all things come, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things are, and one holy Spirit, in whom all things are.

2. If anyone will not confess that the Word of God has two nativities, that which is before all ages from the Father, outside time and without a body, and secondly that nativity of these latter days when the Word of God came down from the heavens and was made flesh of holy and glorious Mary, mother of God and ever-virgin, and was born from her: let him be anathema.

3. If anyone declares that the [Word] of God who works miracles is not identical with the Christ who suffered, or alleges that God the Word was with the Christ who was born of woman, or was in him in the way that one might be in another, but that our lord Jesus Christ was not one and the same, the Word of God incarnate and made man, and that the miracles and the sufferings which he voluntarily underwent in the flesh were not of the same person: let him be anathema.

4. If anyone declares that it was only in respect of grace, or of principle of action, or of dignity or in respect of equality of honour, or in respect of authority, or of some relation, or of some affection or power that there was a unity made between the Word of God and the man, or if anyone alleges that it is in respect of good will, as if God the Word was pleased with the man, because he was well and properly disposed to God, as Theodore claims in his madness; or if anyone says that this union is only a sort of synonymity, as the Nestorians allege, who call the Word of God Jesus and Christ, and even designate the human separately by the names "Christ" and "Son", discussing quite obviously two different persons, and only pretending to speak of one person and one Christ when the reference is to his title, honour, dignity or adoration; finally if anyone does not accept the teaching of the holy fathers that the union occurred of the Word of God with human flesh which is possessed by a rational and intellectual soul, and that this union is by synthesis or by person, and that therefore there is only one person, namely the lord Jesus Christ, one member of the holy Trinity: let him be anathema. The notion of "union" can be understood in many different ways. The supporters of the wickedness of Apollinarius and Eutyches have asserted that the union is produced by a confusing of the uniting elements, as they advocate the disappearance of the elements that unite. Those who follow Theodore and Nestorius, rejoicing in the division, have brought in a union which is only by affection. The holy church of God, rejecting the wickedness of both sorts of heresy, states her belief in a union between the Word of God and human flesh which is by synthesis, that is by a union of subsistence. In the mystery of Christ the union of synthesis not only conserves without confusing the elements that come together but also allows no division.

5. If anyone understands by the single subsistence of our lord Jesus Christ that it covers the meaning of many subsistences, and by this argument tries to introduce into the mystery of Christ two subsistences or two persons, and having brought in two persons then talks of one person only in respect of dignity, honour or adoration, as both Theodore and Nestorius have written in their madness; if anyone falsely represents the holy synod of Chalcedon, making out that it accepted this heretical view by its terminology of "one subsistence", and if he does not acknowledge that the Word of God is united with human flesh by subsistence, and that on account of this there is only one subsistence or one person, and that the holy synod of Chalcedon thus made a formal statement of belief in the single subsistence of our lord Jesus Christ: let him be anathema. There has been no addition of person or subsistence to the holy Trinity even after one of its members, God the Word, becoming human flesh.
6. If anyone declares that it can be only inexactly and not truly said that the holy and glorious ever-virgin Mary is the mother of God, or says that she is so only in some relative way, considering that she bore a mere man and that God the Word was not made into human flesh in her, holding rather that the nativity of a man from her was referred, as they say, to God the Word as he was with the man who came into being; if anyone misrepresents the holy synod of Chalcedon, alleging that it claimed that the virgin was the mother of God only according to that heretical understanding which the blasphemous Theodore put forward; or if anyone says that she is the mother of a man or the Christ-bearer, that is the mother of Christ, suggesting that Christ is not God; and does not formally confess that she is properly and truly the mother of God, because he who before all ages was born of the Father, God the Word, has been made into human flesh in these latter days and has been born to her, and it was in this religious understanding that the holy synod of Chalcedon formally stated its belief that she was the mother of God: let him be anathema.

7. If anyone, when speaking about the two natures, does not confess a belief in our one lord Jesus Christ, understood in both his divinity and his humanity, so as by this to signify a difference of natures of which an ineffable union has been made without confusion, in which neither the nature of the Word was changed into the nature of human flesh, nor was the nature of human flesh changed into that of the Word (each remained what it was by nature, even after the union, as this had been made in respect of subsistence); and if anyone understands the two natures in the mystery of Christ in the sense of a division into parts, or if he expresses his belief in the plural natures in the same lord Jesus Christ, God the Word made flesh, but does not consider the difference of those natures, of which he is composed, to be only in the onlooker's mind, a difference which is not compromised by the union (for he is one from both and the two exist through the one) but uses the plurality to suggest that each nature is possessed separately and has a subsistence of its own: let him be anathema.

8. If anyone confesses a belief that a union has been made out of the two natures divinity and humanity, or speaks about the one nature of God the Word made flesh, but does not understand these things according to what the fathers have taught, namely that from the divine and human natures a union was made according to subsistence, and that one Christ was formed, and from these expressions tries to introduce one nature or substance made of the deity and human flesh of Christ: let him be anathema. In saying that it was in respect of subsistence that the only-begotten God the Word was united, we are not alleging that there was a confusion made of each of the natures into one another, but rather that each of the two remained what it was, and in this way we understand that the Word was united to human flesh. So there is only one Christ, God and man, the same being consubstantial with the Father in respect of his divinity, and also consubstantial with us in respect of our humanity. Both those who divide or split up the mystery of the divine dispensation of Christ and those who introduce into that mystery some confusion are equally rejected and anathematized by the church of God.
9. If anyone says that Christ is to be worshipped in his two natures, and by that wishes to introduce two adorations, a separate one for God the Word and another for the man; or if anyone, so as to remove the human flesh or to mix up the divinity and the humanity, monstrously invents one nature or substance brought together from the two, and so worships Christ, but not by a single adoration God the Word in human flesh along with his human flesh, as has been the tradition of the church from the beginning: let him be anathema.

10. If anyone does not confess his belief that our lord Jesus Christ, who was crucified in his human flesh, is truly God and the Lord of glory and one of the members of the holy Trinity: let him be anathema.

11. If anyone does not anathematize Arius, Eunomius, Macedonius, Apollinarius Nestorius, Eutyches and Origen, as well as their heretical books, and also all other heretics who have already been condemned and anathematized by the holy, catholic and apostolic church and by the four holy synods which have already been mentioned, and also all those who have thought or now think in the same way as the aforesaid heretics and who persist in their error even to death: let him be anathema.

12. If anyone defends the heretical Theodore of Mopsuestia, who said that God the Word is one, while quite another is Christ, who was troubled by the passions of the soul and the desires of human flesh, was gradually separated from that which is inferior, and became better by his progress in good works, and could not be faulted in his way of life, and as a mere man was baptized in the name of the Father and the Son and the holy Spirit, and through this baptism received the grace of the holy Spirit and came to deserve sonship and to be adored, in the way that one adores a statue of the emperor, as if he were God the Word, and that he became after his resurrection immutable in his thoughts and entirely without sin. Furthermore this heretical Theodore claimed that the union of God the Word to Christ is rather like that which, according to the teaching of the Apostle, is between a man and his wife: The two shall become one. Among innumerable other blasphemies he dared to allege that, when after his resurrection the Lord breathed on his disciples and said, Receive the holy Spirit, he was not truly giving them the holy Spirit, but he breathed on them only as a sign. Similarly he claimed that Thomas's profession of faith made when, after his resurrection, he touched the hands and side of the Lord, namely My Lord and my God, was not said about Christ, but that Thomas was in this way extolling God for raising up Christ and expressing his astonishment at the miracle of the resurrection. This Theodore makes a comparison which is even worse than this when, writing about the acts of the Apostles, he says that Christ was like Plato, Manichaeus, Epicurus and Marcion, alleging that just as each of these men arrived at his own teaching and then had his disciples called after him Platonists, Manichaeans, Epicureans and Marcionites, so Christ found his teaching and then had disciples who were called Christians. If anyone offers a defence for this more heretical Theodore, and his heretical books in which he throws up the aforesaid blasphemies and many other additional blasphemies against our great God and saviour Jesus Christ, and if anyone fails to anathematize him and his heretical books as well as all those who offer acceptance or defence to him, or who allege that his interpretation is correct, or who write on his behalf or on that of his heretical teachings, or who are or have been of the same way of thinking and persist until death in this error: let him be anathema.

13. If anyone defends the heretical writings of Theodoret which were composed against the true faith, against the first holy synod of Ephesus and against holy Cyril and his Twelve Chapters, and also defends what Theodoret wrote to support the heretical Theodore and Nestorius and others who think in the same way as the aforesaid Theodore and Nestorius and accept them or their heresy and if anyone, because of them, shall accuse of being heretical the doctors of the church who have stated their belief in the union according to subsistence of God the Word; and if anyone does not anathematize these heretical books and those who have thought or now think in this way, and all those who have written against the true faith or against holy Cyril and his twelve chapters, and who persist in such heresy until they die: let him be anathema.

14. If anyone defends the letter which Ibas is said to have written to Mari the Persian, which denies that God the Word, who became incarnate of Mary the holy mother of God and ever virgin, became man, but alleges that he was only a man born to her, whom it describes as a temple, as if God the Word was one and the man someone quite different; which condemns holy Cyril as if he were a heretic, when he gives the true teaching of Christians, and accuses holy Cyril of writing opinions like those of the heretical Apollinarius ;which rebukes the first holy synod of Ephesus, alleging that it condemned Nestorius without going into the matter by a formal examination; which claims that the twelve chapters of holy Cyril are heretical and opposed to the true faith; and which defends Theodore and Nestorius and their heretical teachings and books. If anyone defends the said letter and does not anathematize it and all those who offer a defence for it and allege that it or a part of it is correct, or if anyone defends those who have written or shall write in support of it or the heresies contained in it, or supports those who are bold enough to defend it or its heresies in the name of the holy fathers of the holy synod of Chalcedon, and persists in these errors until his death: let him be anathema.

Such then are the assertions we confess. We have received them from

1. holy Scripture, from
2. the teaching of the holy fathers, and from
3. the definitions about the one and the same faith made by the aforesaid four holy synods.

Moreover, condemnation has been passed by us against the heretics and their impiety, and also against those who have justified or shall justify the so-called "Three Chapters", and against those who have persisted or will persist in their own error. If anyone should attempt to hand on, or to teach by word or writing, anything contrary to what we have regulated, then if he is a bishop or somebody appointed to the clergy, in so far as he is acting contrary to what befits priests and the ecclesiastical status, let him be stripped of the rank of priest or cleric, and if he is a monk or lay person, let him be anathema.
 
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Jude1:3Contendforthefaith

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Light of the East

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Here's another serious problem you have trying to pin the tail of Apokatastasis on Constantinople II:

"In 787 AD, the Seventh Ecumenical Council of the Church, (also known as the Second Council of Nicea) honored Gregory of Nyssa: Let us then, consider who were the venerable doctors and indomitable champions of the Church [including] Gregory Primate of Nyssa, who all have called the father of fathers."

If these Fathers meant to condemn Apokatastasis qua Origen, then they surely would have condemned St. Gregory Nyssa posthumously. He was quite open in his writings in this regard and it was no secret. The only person trying to wedge Universal Salvation in the side door of Constantinople II was Emperor Justinian. Justinian despized the Originists because they were causing massive civil unrest and problems in Jerusalem, thus he hated them and anything they taught. Justinian's whole raison d'etre was the restoration of the Roman Empire and the return of it to former glory. He knew he could not achieve this with a divided empire, so he set about unifying the empire under his vision.

This was the reason that Constantinople II was called, desipte Pope Vigilius' opposition to it. Vigilius had to be violently arrested and put in house arrest until he was worn down and acceded to Justinian's orders. There were riots and deaths taking place in Jerusalem of the issue of Chalcedon. Constantinople II was an attempt at unification in the empire. It failed miserably. The civil unrest continued for 80 years after Justinian died.

The whole council from the very beginning was held in a highly suspect manner, from the violence used on Pope Vigilius to the fact that Emperor Justinian was not a theologian nor a bishop and overstepped his bounds considerably by what he did. With the discovery of fraudulent manuscripts and forgeries, it is past time that this council receive the same treatment that the Robber's Council of Ephesus did. It should be scrapped and a new council to discuss Monophysitism, which would be free from meddling from an ego-driven emperor, should make a new declaration.
 
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Jude1:3Contendforthefaith

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Jude1:3Contendforthefaith

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https://jordanville.org/files/Articles/Anathemas.pdf


"To Those Who Reject The Councils of the Holy Fathers, and traditions which are in accord with divine revelation, and which the Orthodox Church piously maintains, ANATHEMA!"

And

"To the holy and right-believing Emperor Constantine, equal of the apostles, and his mother Helena, and to the Orthodox rulers of Greece: Theodosius the Great, Theodosius the Younger, Justinian, and other Orthodox rulers of Greece, MEMORY ETERNAL!"


.
 
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Jesse Dornfeld

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they are raised and separated into the sheep and goats. there is still separation (sinners aren't gonna be in agony standing next to saints), but what makes both places different is the souls of those in them.

I'm not sure I understand. Is there going to be a literal rising of the dead or not? Because if there is not, then it's just as easy to say Jesus, the Messiah, didn't literally rise from the dead but it was more symbolic. If that's the case, why be a Christian at all? It's just symbolism and nothing more.
 
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