Does faith justify? (I have an answer, but would like input.

Do you think God is going to judge everyone the same measure or judgement, or maybe what I should or might say, is, "do you think God is going to judge everyone exactly by the exact same measure according to or in "man's own eyes or measure or judgement", etc...?

Cause He will judge everyone by the same measure, but it's just that, right now anyway, or when many of us arrive at judgement, it will not seem that way immediately to all of us, etc...

God factors in "all", being able to fully see and know "all", etc, which is nothing we know, nor can judge or see right now with any kind of true accuracy or truly just measure right now, etc...

Nor that we will be able to immediately know or see at the judgement immediately either, etc, but it will only ever be truly known or fully seen by us, only when it is all fully shown or fully revealed to us all "later", or a little bit later on than that, etc, then we will know fully, etc, but not until then, etc, and we most certainly don't know right now, etc, not even close, etc...

And in fact, at first, it will almost seem to some that God is judging 100% completely unfairly and unjustly at first, etc, but it will actually not be in any way that way at all, etc...

So, if it is "faith plus anything else" that God might be requiring of some of the individuals each one each specifically, and in their own unique cases, etc, "it or that", etc, is also something we do not and cannot fully know all in each one it's all full specifics right now, etc...

He might require more from some, and not more, or maybe not that much more, from others, etc, and it will seem "unfair" to "very unfair" or not fair to some or maybe even many at first, etc, but it will actually be the most fair judgement that can possibly be made for each one each individually and each one fully justly and specifically, etc...

And, because we do not or cannot know right now, I would advise each one to their own personally very best, and as much as each one is able to, etc, in any kind of areas of performing or performance, etc, so that, if God does require something more from you than just maybe just only faith only at or in the end, etc, hopefully you will meet or live up to whatever that might have been that was required of you or from you that might maybe have been just more than just faith only or alone, etc...

We know each one is not the same, etc, some are more or less able than others, and these are in different areas for each one as well, etc, and if you don't think God is going to factor all of that into His judging each one at the judgement, then you are actually saying that God is going to really actually be truly and totally unjust or unfair in that case, etc, which He is not at all unjust or unfair, so we should all know He does, and most certainly will, etc, factor all of those things in, etc, to give a 100% totally true and just judgement, etc...

Anyway,

Oh, and, the more a person is sinning, but not in man's eyes, but God's, etc, the less faith that one actually has or is having also, etc...

If one had perfect faith in God's eyes (and not man's) then he or she would actually also be also totally innocent or 100% totally sinless (from that point on) in God's eyes also, etc...

In general we sin due to a lack of faith, but let not that judgement be made in man's eyes only ever, etc, is all I'm saying, etc, cause man gets it all wrong, and all wrong a lot, a lot of the time, etc...

God Bless!

Soyeong said:

A thing that fulfills the purpose for which it was created is a good, so good works are those done to testify about God's nature and to sanctify His name, which are in obedience to what God has commanded.

The phrase "works of the law" has no definitive article in the Greek, so it is literally translated as "works of law", which means that it does not refer to a definitive set of laws, such as THE Law of Moses, but rather Paul used it as a catch-all phrase to refer a large body of Jewish oral laws, traditions, rulings, and fences that were being taught that people needed to obey in order to become justified. For example, Acts 1:12 refers to returning to Jerusalem from the Mount called Olivet as being a Sabbath day's journey away, however, this is not something spelled out in the Mosaic Law. Likewise, in Acts 10:28, Peter referred to a law that forbade Jews to visit or associate with Gentiles, which again is not found in the Mosaic Law, and is therefore a man made law. It was this law that Peter was obeying in Galatians 2:11-16 when he stopped visiting or associating with the Gentiles, and by doing so, he was giving credibility to those who were wanting to require Gentiles to obey their works of the law in order to become justified, which is why Paul rebuked him and reiterated that we are justified by faith, not by works of the law.

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Paul in the letter to the Galatians is directly warning the Galatian church, not to touch the book of the law.

Galatians 3:5
So then, does He who provides you with the Spirit and works miracles among you, do it by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith?

Paul is not referring to man made laws when Paul uses that expression, 'works of the law'.

Here is the proof.

Galatians 3:10
For as many as are of the works of the Law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not abide by all things written in the book of the law, to perform them.”

Soyeong said:

By all means please explain where you think that I have made a circular argument.

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If you claim that one is justified by faith apart from works, you cannot go back to works again to prove justification.

klutedavid said:

Paul in the letter to the Galatians is directly warning the Galatian church, not to touch the book of the law.

Galatians 3:5
So then, does He who provides you with the Spirit and works miracles among you, do it by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith?

Paul is not referring to man made laws when Paul uses that expression, 'works of the law'.

Here is the proof.

Galatians 3:10
For as many as are of the works of the Law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not abide by all things written in the book of the law, to perform them.”

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In Matthew 23:23, Jesus said that faith is one of the weightier matters of the Mosaic Law, so the Mosaic Law is of faith. In Romans 3:27, Paul contrasted a law that was of works with a law that was of faith, so works of the law are of works, while he said in 3:31 that our faith upholds the Mosaic Law, so again the Mosaic Law is of faith and Paul contrasted the Mosaic Law with works of the law. In Galatians 3:10-12, Paul they were under a curse because they were relying on works of the law instead of doing all of the things in the Book of the Law. Paul associated a quote from Habakkuk 2:4 with a quote from Leviticus 18:5, so the righteous who are living by faith are the same as those who are living in obedience to the Mosaic Law, while no one is justified before God by works of the law because they are not of faith in God. Likewise, in Isaiah 51:7, the righteous are those on whose heart is the Mosaic Law, so the righteous living by faith does not refer to a manner of living that is not in obedience to the Mosaic Law. God is trustworthy, therefore the Mosaic Law is also trustworthy (Psalms 19:7, Nehemiah 9:13) and a law that isn't trustworthy can't come from a God who is trustworthy, so to put our faith in the Mosaic Law is to put our faith in the Lawgiver, while to deny that the Mosaic Law is of faith is to deny the faithfulness of the Lawgiver.

Bible Highlighter said:

Not true, my friend.

While we are initially and ultimately saved by God's grace through faith in Christ, the Bible also teaches that works of faith also play a part in the salvation process from Genesis to Revelation. For both Jesus and Paul taught and or implied that works play a part in eternal life.

#1. Both Jesus and Paul essentially say you can deny God by one's works.

For Jesus said,
"And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity" (Matthew 7:23).​

Jesus said,
"And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth" (Matthew 25:30).

Paul said,
"They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate." (Titus 1:16).​

#2. Both Jesus and Paul essentially say you need to drink of (walk in) the Spirit as a part of everlasting life.

Jesus said,
"But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life." (John 4:14).

Jesus said,
"He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water." (John 7:38).

John said this of Jesus's words,
"(But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)" (John 7:39).

Paul said,
“...God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth” (2 Thessalonians 2:13).

Paul said,
“For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.” (Romans 8:13).​

Paul said,
“There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.” (Romans 8:1).​

#3. Both Jesus and Paul say that the judgment involves those being condemned or punished in the afterlife for doing evil vs. doing good leading to glory or life as a part of God's kingdom.

Jesus said,
"And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Paul said,
"But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: For there is no respect of persons with God." (Romans 2:8-11).

Paul said,
19 "Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God." (Galatians 5:19-21).​

#4. Both Jesus and Paul taught that we have to continue to abide in the good works of the Lord or we will be cut off and or burned in the fire.

Jesus said,
4 "Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned" (John 15:4-6).

Paul said,
“For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.” (Romans 11:21-22).​

#5. Both Jesus and Peter essentially say that the fear of the Lord is a part of salvation.

Jesus said,
"Fear not them who can kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear Him (The Lord, i.e. Jesus) who is able to destroy both soul and body in Gehenna (i.e. the Lake of Fire) (‭‭Matthew‬ ‭10:28‬).

Paul said,
"...work out your own salvation with fear and trembling." (Philippians 2:12).​

#6. Both Jesus and Paul taught that laboring (food) relates to everlasting life.

Jesus says,
"Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you..." (John 6:29).

Jesus says,
"My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, and to finish his work." (John 4:34).

Paul said,
“...And having become servants of God, ye have your fruit unto holiness and the end, everlasting life.” (Romans 6:22).​

#7. Both Jesus and Paul spoke of a time in the last days of where false prophets shall arise who are faithless and who do not love (i.e. they will have a form of godliness).

Jesus said,
"Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?" (Luke 18:8).

Jesus said,
"And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold." (Matthew 24:12).

Jesus said,
"And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many" (Matthew 24:11).

Paul said,
1 "This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.
2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,
4 Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
6 For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,
7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.
8 Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith.
9 But they shall proceed no further: for their folly shall be manifest unto all men, as theirs also was." (2 Timothy 3:1-9).​

Side Note:

Please take note that James says he will show you his faith by his works (James 2:18). So the faithless that Jesus talks about are those who are fruitless or those who do not have any truly good works. 2 Timothy 3:1-9 is also a revealing passage, as well. Basically it is saying what you are not supposed to be like. For this passage describes those who have a form of godliness and they are lovers of pleasure more than lovers of God. This means that a Belief Alone Type Gospel (that leads to one not being concerned about sin or not treating it as seriously) is not true.

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The term "Works of faith" is another oxymoron, by Romans 4:5.

Yes, I agree that both Jesus in the 4 gospels, as well as James was teaching that faith require works. That is not surprising since Jesus was born under the Law, so he cannot possibly be preaching Romans 4:5.

It's only in the but now time period that Romans 4:5 applies.

MMXX said:

It comes off as circular to me as well. I just listened to John MacArthur teaching along these lines and I had a hard time following it. And the wording I've read by others before you comes out like, "It's not a cheese burger, it's a burger with cheese". Now I'm not arguing against what you're saying, I'm saying it's somewhat confusing to me and I'm sure others as well.

I'll hear stuff from John MacArthur that sounds like salvation is based on performance, which he's been accused of. But then I heard him say that if his salvation was up to him, he would lose it. Which I took to mean that if his salvation was based on his performance, he would lose it.

Having said that I can imagine getting a reply from whoever that, salvation isn't based on performance, but performance is the result of salvation. But the confusing part there is that MacArthur just said his performance isn't good enough.

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Yep, people who try to make Paul and James say the same thing usually end up making circular arguments along the lines of "We are saved by faith alone, but the faith that saves is never alone"

It always makes me go "durrr"?

Works of the law, does not mean all work or works in general, as if the gospel is somehow promoting and advocating disobedience, etc, but the way that the the letter of the law was written, it actually promotes or spurns on, actually great disobedience actually, etc, which is why the exact letter of it, comes with a curse, etc, that only furthers disobedience, etc, and makes it worse, etc...

And it's also very slick and deceptive as well, as it can make one think that they actually doing very well, but it is all only rooted in "self" and "everything self" only, etc, which is why it actually promotes and spurns on actually disobedience, etc...

But it does not mean all works in general, etc, but even with all good work in general, it can be made into being like a work of the law if you are in any way trusting in any of that kind of work to do anything for you, especially with God, etc, and key word here being "you" also, etc, but doing anything for you most especially like playing a part in your being saved or your own salvation, etc, cause that comes with a curse as well, etc, and it is the same curse I just described with the exact letter of the letter of the OT law covenant, etc...

So, do good work, which you know in your conscience to be good, etc, but don't being doing it/them primarily cause it does anything "for you", etc, or because you think it plays any kind of part in your own salvation, or truly does anything for you with God, etc, but true good works must come from the heart, and be from the right kind of heart, or they can/will come with a curse, that actually is, or that at that point becomes, actually some form of sin or disobedience, etc, and you will not or may not even ever know it, etc...

God Bless!

Guojing said:

Yep, people who try to make Paul and James say the same thing usually end up making circular arguments along the lines of "We are saved by faith alone, but the faith that saves is never alone"

It always makes me go "durrr"?

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The most safe, and most logical and faithful and honest conclusion is, "we don't know right now", etc, like I just said in post #41, etc...

God may require more than that from some, and maybe not, or maybe not nearly as much with others, etc... (Again post #41, etc)...

"We do not know", and I don't know if we're meant to know right now, etc, maybe so there will still be some incentive or driving force to be and do better and improve still regardless maybe, etc, but I don't really know that really right now either, etc, but am just trying to say that there might not be much incentive otherwise maybe, etc...

But I do know we sin (or don't do as good or be as good as we can be, etc) because we lack the faith, etc... (again post #41, etc)...

Anyway,

God Bless!

Guojing said:

If you claim that one is justified by faith apart from works, you cannot go back to works again to prove justification.

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MMXX said:

It comes off as circular to me as well. I just listened to John MacArthur teaching along these lines and I had a hard time following it. And the wording I've read by others before you come out like, "It's not a cheese burger, it's a burger with cheese". Now I'm not arguing against what you're saying, I'm saying it's somewhat confusing to me and I'm sure others as well.

I'll hear stuff from John MacArthur that sounds like salvation is based on performance, which he's been accused of. But then I heard him say that if his salvation was up to him, he would lose it. Which I took to mean that if his salvation was based on his performance, he would lose it.

Having said that I can imagine getting a reply from whoever that, salvation isn't based on performance, but performance is the result of salvation. But the confusing part there is that MacArthur just said his performance isn't good enough.

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Sorry if I was not clear. The issue is that there can be different motivations for doing works. For example, if someone is working at a job, then they are doing things for the good of someone else for which they are earning a wage. However, if I told someone to do something that is for their own good, then by choosing to do that, they would not be earning a wage from me, but instead they would be putting their faith in me to rightly guide them. In Deuteronomy 6:24 and 10:12-13, the Mosaic Law was given for our own good, so our obedience to it has never been about trying to earn our salvation, but rather it has always been about putting our faith in God to rightly guide us, and it is by that same faith that we are saved, which is why Jesus said in Matthew 23:23 that faith is one of the weightier matters of the law.

In Romans 9:30-10:4, they Israelites had a zeal for God, but it was not based on knowledge, so they failed to attain righteousness because they pursued the law as through righteousness were by works in an effort to establish their own instead of by pursuing the law as through righteousness were by faith in Christ, for Christ is the goal of the law for righteousness for everyone who has faith. So thinking that obeying the law is about earning our righteousness is making the same fundamental misunderstanding of the goal of the law as they were making.

So speaking against doing something for the wrong purpose should not be mistaken as speaking against doing it for its intended purpose. For example, if I said that you should not use a car for the purpose of exploring the bottom of a lake and you concluded that I was speaking against using a car for any purpose, then you would be making the same error as concluding from Paul speaking against earning our salvation by our works that our works don't have any purpose in regard to our salvation. When Paul said that we are justified by faith and not by works of the law, he was denying that works of the law play any role in earning our justification, however, he did not want us to conclude that are faith therefore abolishes our need to obey God's law, but rather he concluded that our faith upholds it (Romans 3:31). Our faith upholds God's law because the same faith by which we are justified is also expressed as obedience to God's law. Our salvation is from sin (Matthew 1:21) and sin is the transgression of God's law (1 John 3:4), so it doesn't even make sense for someone to want to be saved from living in transgression of God's law apart from living in obedience to it.

Soyeong said:

Sorry if I was not clear. The issue is that there can be different motivations for doing works. For example, if someone is working at a job, then they are doing things for the good of someone else for which they are earning a wage. However, if I told someone to do something that is for their own good, then by choosing to do that, they would not be earning a wage from me, but instead they would be putting their faith in me to rightly guide them. In Deuteronomy 6:24 and 10:12-13, the Mosaic Law was given for our own good, so our obedience to it has never been about trying to earn our salvation, but rather it has always been about putting our faith in God to rightly guide us, and it is by that same faith that we are saved, which is why Jesus said in Matthew 23:23 that faith is one of the weightier matters of the law.

In Romans 9:30-10:4, they Israelites had a zeal for God, but it was not based on knowledge, so they failed to attain righteousness because they pursued the law as through righteousness were by works in an effort to establish their own instead of by pursuing the law as through righteousness were by faith in Christ, for Christ is the goal of the law for righteousness for everyone who has faith. So thinking that obeying the law is about earning our righteousness is making the same fundamental misunderstanding of the goal of the law as they were making.

So speaking against doing something for the wrong purpose should not be mistaken as speaking against doing it for its intended purpose. For example, if I said that you should not use a car for the purpose of exploring the bottom of a lake and you concluded that I was speaking against using a car for any purpose, then you would be making the same error as concluding from Paul speaking against earning our salvation by our works that our works don't have any purpose in regard to our salvation. When Paul said that we are justified by faith and not by works of the law, he was denying that works of the law play any role in earning our justification, however, he did not want us to conclude that are faith therefore abolishes our need to obey God's law, but rather he concluded that our faith upholds it (Romans 3:31). Our faith upholds God's law because the same faith by which we are justified is also expressed as obedience to God's law. Our salvation is from sin (Matthew 1:21) and sin is the transgression of God's law (1 John 3:4), so it doesn't even make sense for someone to want to be saved from living in transgression of God's law apart from living in obedience to it.

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This again comes off as convoluted. I'm not critisizing you because I exchanged several emails with a really good Bible teacher I've known for over ten years about this and I experienced the same general confusion.

As far as I can tell, when put more succinctly, it's you're not saved by way of correct performance, but if you're saved you're going to perform correctly. Or in otherwords, if you're not performing correctly, then you're not really saved.

And I get the feeling people end up giving lenthy complecated descriptions, because they don't want to come right out and say that point blank.

MMXX said:

This again comes off as convaluted. I'm not critisizing you, because I don't think there's a way to explain it any other way. I exchanged several emails with a really good Bible teacher I've known for over ten years and I experienced the same general confusion.

As far as I can tell, when put more succinctly, it's you're not saved by way of correct performance, but if you're saved you're going perform correctly. Or in otherwords, if you're not performing correctly, then you're not really saved.

And I get the feeling people end up giving lenthy complecated descriptions, because they don't want to come right out and say that point blank.

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Even more succinctly, works are necessary but not sufficient for salvation.

Like how oxygen (works) is necessary for fire (salvation), oxygen don't result in fire, but when you see a fire, you know there must be oxygen.

Guojing said:

If you claim that one is justified by faith apart from works, you cannot go back to works again to prove justification.

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This reminds me of the saying of "trying to have your cake and eat it too".

In other words wanting to have it both ways.

Guojing said:

Even more succinctly, works are necessary but not sufficient for salvation.

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Now that is very easy to understand.

Once God's laws are written upon you heart and your conscience, and that or those (people) are born again in part from previously knowing that (the letter of the law, etc) there is no further need for the letter of the law to be studiously observed, so that, as by that, or after that, or by that, trying to obey them by that, after that, etc, (instead of the other, etc), as it actually creates and revives "sin consciousness" in you, etc, and will only make you stumble after a certain point, etc, but it is only "after a certain point" only after that, etc, because before that, and for people that are still yet before that, etc, it is still very much needed and still very much in full effect for those ones as it's (the letter of the law's) full work in those ones has not been fully completed yet, etc, but it (the letter of the law) is only still for those ones until they can only also get, or be, or become, "after that point" yet, etc, but/and/or because, after that point, etc, it can actually cause you to fall and fail and stumble and sin, etc, due it's constantly reviving "sin consciousness" in you, which is what needs to be eliminated in you after you reach a certain point, etc, or needs to be eliminated in you 100% completely after you complete that/this first necessary and essential first step first, etc, that is, to have them (God's laws) full written upon you heart and/or conscience first, etc, but after that, it (the letter of the law) will only keep sin, and sinful lusts and temptations, and "sin consciousness", still only very much alive in you only after that point, after that, etc, and will no longer help you obey anymore after that, etc, but only can only do or perform only the exact opposite only after that, only ever tempt after that to only disobey after that only, etc...

Only will only keep fear fully alive in you after that so that you will not ever be able to fully walk in Love after that only, etc...

But before that, it most certainly has a very important purpose, etc...

But not after it has caused the full conversion of your heart, etc, because after that, it only keeps sin consciousness alive in you, and can cause you to sin, etc, and not make any kind of true progress ever anymore after that also, etc...

The letter of the law is for the unlearned in the things (and ways) of God, until they becomes the learned in it/them, but/and/or/because, once that happens, etc, it (the letter of the law) will no longer profit you after that any longer anymore after that, etc, but will only ever do, after that, only the exact opposite only after that ever, etc...

But they have to be fully written upon and in your own heart and/or conscience first, before you can truly put it away, etc, otherwise sin consciousness will just keep coming back all over again, etc, and then again, and than again, and again and again, "again", etc...

Cause otherwise you still have need to have it and still be under it, etc (the OT letter of the law covenant, etc)...

But not once it's work is truly completed, etc, then there is no more further need for it, as it will only keep sin alive still in you after that only, and it serves no more good need or purpose for you, or in you, after that, etc, but only bad only after that, etc...

I will leave you guys to try and gauge where you are at with it to fully know whether or not you still truly still need it right now or anymore right now yet, etc...

But, after a certain point, there is no further good purpose or need for it, but only bad only after that, etc...

You'll hopefully be able to know when you have gone from being fully dependent upon the letter to now being fully dependent on the Spirit now hopefully, etc...

Cause that is also how you will be able to tell or know, etc...

God Bless!

MMXX said:

This again comes off as convoluted. I'm not critisizing you because I exchanged several emails with a really good Bible teacher I've known for over ten years about this and I experienced the same general confusion.

As far as I can tell, when put more succinctly, it's you're not saved by way of correct performance, but if you're saved you're going to perform correctly. Or in otherwords, if you're not performing correctly, then you're not really saved.

And I get the feeling people end up giving lenthy complecated descriptions, because they don't want to come right out and say that point blank.

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Can you agree that Abraham believed God, so he was justified, that Abraham believed God, so obeyed God's command to offer Isaac, and Abraham did not earn his justification by his obedience?

Our obedience to God has never been about having a good enough performance, but rather it has always been about expressing our faith in God to rightly guide us.

To use analogy, if a profession musician were to teach me how to play an instrument as a free gift to me, then participating in that trained would itself be the content of their free gift and would be doing nothing to earn their training, but rather that would be what it looked like to receive it. No matter how much I practiced, it would never amount to any thing that would cause them to owe me their lessons.

In the same way, in Titus 2:11-14, our salvation is described as being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good, and to renounce doing what is ungodly, so God graciously teaching us to do those things is itself part of the content of His free gift of salvation. Can you see that these verses are not speaking about earning our salvation?

Guojing said:

Even more succinctly, works are necessary but not sufficient for salvation.

Like how oxygen (works) is necessary for fire (salvation), oxygen don't result in fire, but when you see a fire, you know there must be oxygen.

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While that is succulently put, it still doesn't address the issue of why works are necessary. It still leaves room for error of saying that Christ's sacrifice on the cross was not enough and that we need to do some works to help earn the rest of our salvation. The issue is that works can be necessary for reasons other than trying to earn our salvation, such as for the purpose of expressing our faith in God to guide us. Our salvation is from sin and sin is the transgression of God's law, so being trained by grace to do good works through faith is part of the content of Christ's free gift of saving us from from not doing works. So doing good works is not about trying to add our own efforts on top of what Christ has done for us, but rather it is what it looks like to receive what he has done for us.

Soyeong said:

While that is succulently put, it still doesn't address the issue of why works are necessary. It still leaves room for error of saying that Christ's sacrifice on the cross was not enough and that we need to do some works to help earn the rest of our salvation. The issue is that works can be necessary for reasons other than trying to earn our salvation, such as for the purpose of expressing our faith in God to guide us. Our salvation is from sin and sin is the transgression of God's law, so being trained by grace to do good works through faith is part of the content of Christ's free gift of saving us from from not doing works. So doing good works is not about trying to add our own efforts on top of what Christ has done for us, but rather it is what it looks like to receive what he has done for us.

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Works are necessary for rewards in heaven, but not for salvation. (1 Corinthians 3:10-15)

Would you agree with that?

What I notice in James and Hebrews 11 is they list a singular work. Abraham and Rahab were said to be justified by performing a single work as a result of faith. It doesn't say that Rahab the harlot did any other work her entire life outside of that one. The point I think is that their faith resulted in something.

Guojing said:

Works are necessary for rewards in heaven, but not for salvation. (1 Corinthians 3:10-15)

Would you agree with that?

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That's what I thought you meant. I consider works also necessary for being a Christain here on earth. To me being a Christan without works is like being a member of a baseball team but never playing baseball. Or like being a gun without bullets.

MMXX said:

That's what I thought you meant. I consider works also necessary for being a Christain here on earth. To me being a Christan without works is like being a member of a baseball team but never playing baseball. Or like being a gun without bullets.

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I believe salvation is a gift to us and is not given to us based on works, as Romans 4:5 indicated.

But the works we do now will determine the quality of that eternal life in heaven.

If you build your works on the wrong foundation, or you totally lack works, you will be embarrassed at the bema seat of Christ no doubt, as 1 Cor 3:15 would indicate.

But lack of works will not cause you to lose eternal life in heaven. I don't believe works are necessary for that.