Does faith justify? (I have an answer, but would like input.
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To me the first one, "the judgement" sounds much more serious than the second, "the counsel". The first and third seem to go together because the judgement makes me think of the white throne judgement.
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In Romans 2:13:
I believe Paul is referring to fulfilling the righteous aspect or part of the Old Law via by the New Covenant way of loving your neighbor according to Romans 13:8-10. For by loving our neighbor we will not murder, steal, covet, etc.
For the context is:
“For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:” (Romans 2:14).
Which law did the Gentiles keep without having the Law? The Moral Law. Laws that one instinctively knows to do. To love others.
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Guojing
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It was always faith that justifies man before God.
But it is only in this time period that we could have faith without works (Romans 4:5).
Prior to the Apostle Paul, the Jews needed to have works to show their faith to God (James 2).
But in the Tribulation, it will be like that once again, you need to reject the mark of the beast, to show your faith to God. Just believing in Christ is no longer sufficient then.
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Soyeong
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Paul notably said that it is the doers of the Mosaic Law who will be justified, not that we earn our justification by being doer of the Mosaic Law. In other words, being a doer of the Mosaic Law is a trait that everyone who will be justified has in common, but our justification is not something that can be earned as a wage as with Abraham (Romans 4:4-5). While it is true that Abraham believed God, so he was justified, it is also true that Abraham believed God, so he obeyed His command to offer Isaac, however, Abraham did not earn his justification by his obedience as a wage, but rather the same faith by which he justified was also expressed as obedience. If the same faith that leads to justification is expressed as obedience to God's will, then we can say that only those who do God will have saving faith and that therefore only doers of the will of God will be justified, while still denying that we can earn our justification as a wage.
Every example of saving faith listed in Hebrews 11 was also an example of someone obeying God's will, so that is a trait that everyone with saving faith has in common, but not one of those examples is speaking about earning their justification by doing God's will. So while we are justified by faith apart from works done to earn our justification, that does not mean that justification does not involve choosing obedience. In Titus 2:14, Jesus gave himself to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works, so becoming zealous for doing good works in obedience to the Mosaic Law is what acceptance of the finished work as true looks like (Acts 21:20).
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Other translations besides the KJB says, “court” instead of “judgment.”
“But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be answerable to the court; and whoever says to his brother, ‘You good-for-nothing,’ shall be answerable to the supreme court; and whoever says, ‘You fool,’ shall be guilty enough to go into the fiery hell.” (Matthew 5:22) (NASB).
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klutedavid
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How do you define 'good works' and 'works of the law'?
Because they are very different creatures.
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Soyeong
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For someone to suggest that there is a subcategory of Moral Law is to suggest that there are laws that don't belong in that subcategory that are moral to disobey, that God was therefore morally wrong to give those laws, and that in regard to those laws they have greater moral knowledge than God. However, there are no examples in the Bible of disobedience to any of God's laws being considered to be moral, so I see no good grounds for the existence of a subcategory of Moral Law or to think that it can ever be moral to disobey God. Morality is in regard to what we ought to do and we ought to obey God, so all of God's laws are inherently part of the Moral Law. So I don't see good grounds for you exception, but rather Romans 2:14 is speaking about believing Gentiles by nature doing what the Mosaic Law requires even though they do not have it.
In Romans 2:25-29, circumcision has value if we obey the Mosaic Law and the way to recognize that a Gentile has a circumcised heart is by observing their obedience to the Mosaic Law, which is the same way to tell for a Jew (Deuteronomy 10:12-16, 30:6), while having an uncircumcised heart refers to refusing to submit to the Mosaic Law (Jeremiah 9:13, 25-26, Acts 7:51-53).
Jesus set a sinless example for us to follow of how to walk in obedience to the Mosaic Law, so he would have still taught full obedience to it by example even if he had said nothing, and as his followers we are told to follow his example (1 Peter 2:21-22) and that those who are in Christ are obligated to walk in the same way he walked (1 John 2:6). Furthermore, Jesus did not hypocritically preach something other than what he practiced and he did not establish the New Covenant in order to undermine anything that he spent his ministry by word and by example, but rather the New Covenant is still made with the same God with the same law (Jeremiah 31:33). The Bible never specifies which laws are ceremonial and never even refers to that as a subcategory of law.
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It's all good, brother. 1 Peter 3:21 is another instance of a non-mortal sin in my understanding of Scripture. Peter says that baptism saves not for the putting away of the filthin of the flesh (i.e. sin), but it saves us as an answer to the call of having a good conscience towards God. Then there is Paul's mistake in Acts 21. Paul ignored the warnings of the Holy Spirit in going to Jerusalem. Yet, Paul was not condemned because Paul went to Jerusalem out of love to see his fellow Jews saved and to see His fellow brethren in Christ. Through that mistake, Paul dropped the ball even more and he was pressured by his fellow Messianic brethren in seeking to be justified by the Law by going through with a purification rite in the OT that involved an animal sacrifice. Luckily God stopped him with going through with the entire thing and he was arrested. But I believe if Paul obeyed the Spirit in not going to Jerusalem, he would not have been put into prison. So Paul's punishment was not an eternal one, but an earthly one. It was a non-mortal sin.
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The Gentiles kept the law without having the Law. What kind of Law could that possibly be?
The dictionary defines Moral Law for us.
Moral Law:
Such a rule or group of rules conceived as universal and unchanging and as having the sanction of God's will, of conscience, of man's moral nature, or of natural justice as revealed to human reason.
Source:
Definition of MORAL LAW
In other words, when you turn on the news, you see men reporting how murder is wrong, and theft is wrong, and how other sins by nature that we know are wrong. Granted, things are getting darker in these last days and men have been hardening their hearts to what they know deep down is good and right. But the point here is that there are laws that are instinctual to man in doing good. There are certain laws that they did not need to be hit over the head with in knowing in regards to good vs. evil. This is what I am referring to. This is the righteous aspect of the law (i.e. the righteousness of the Law) (See: Romans 8:4).
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Not true, my friend.
While we are initially and ultimately saved by God's grace through faith in Christ, the Bible also teaches that works of faith also play a part in the salvation process from Genesis to Revelation. For both Jesus and Paul taught and or implied that works play a part in eternal life.
#1. Both Jesus and Paul essentially say you can deny God by one's works.
For Jesus said,
"And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity" (Matthew 7:23).
"And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity" (Matthew 7:23).
Jesus said,
"And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth" (Matthew 25:30).
Paul said,
"They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate." (Titus 1:16).
"And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth" (Matthew 25:30).
Paul said,
"They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate." (Titus 1:16).
#2. Both Jesus and Paul essentially say you need to drink of (walk in) the Spirit as a part of everlasting life.
Jesus said,
"But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life." (John 4:14).
Jesus said,
"He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water." (John 7:38).
John said this of Jesus's words,
"(But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)" (John 7:39).
Paul said,
“...God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth” (2 Thessalonians 2:13).
Paul said,
“For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.” (Romans 8:13).
"But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life." (John 4:14).
Jesus said,
"He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water." (John 7:38).
John said this of Jesus's words,
"(But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)" (John 7:39).
Paul said,
“...God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth” (2 Thessalonians 2:13).
Paul said,
“For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.” (Romans 8:13).
Paul said,
“There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.” (Romans 8:1).
“There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.” (Romans 8:1).
#3. Both Jesus and Paul say that the judgment involves those being condemned or punished in the afterlife for doing evil vs. doing good leading to glory or life as a part of God's kingdom.
Jesus said,
"And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
Paul said,
"But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: For there is no respect of persons with God." (Romans 2:8-11).
Paul said,
19 "Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God." (Galatians 5:19-21).
"And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
Paul said,
"But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: For there is no respect of persons with God." (Romans 2:8-11).
Paul said,
19 "Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God." (Galatians 5:19-21).
#4. Both Jesus and Paul taught that we have to continue to abide in the good works of the Lord or we will be cut off and or burned in the fire.
Jesus said,
4 "Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned" (John 15:4-6).
Paul said,
“For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.” (Romans 11:21-22).
4 "Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned" (John 15:4-6).
Paul said,
“For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.” (Romans 11:21-22).
#5. Both Jesus and Peter essentially say that the fear of the Lord is a part of salvation.
Jesus said,
"Fear not them who can kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear Him (The Lord, i.e. Jesus) who is able to destroy both soul and body in Gehenna (i.e. the Lake of Fire) (Matthew 10:28).
Paul said,
"...work out your own salvation with fear and trembling." (Philippians 2:12).
"Fear not them who can kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear Him (The Lord, i.e. Jesus) who is able to destroy both soul and body in Gehenna (i.e. the Lake of Fire) (Matthew 10:28).
Paul said,
"...work out your own salvation with fear and trembling." (Philippians 2:12).
#6. Both Jesus and Paul taught that laboring (food) relates to everlasting life.
Jesus says,
"Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you..." (John 6:29).
Jesus says,
"My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, and to finish his work." (John 4:34).
Paul said,
“...And having become servants of God, ye have your fruit unto holiness and the end, everlasting life.” (Romans 6:22).
"Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you..." (John 6:29).
Jesus says,
"My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, and to finish his work." (John 4:34).
Paul said,
“...And having become servants of God, ye have your fruit unto holiness and the end, everlasting life.” (Romans 6:22).
#7. Both Jesus and Paul spoke of a time in the last days of where false prophets shall arise who are faithless and who do not love (i.e. they will have a form of godliness).
Jesus said,
"Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?" (Luke 18:8).
Jesus said,
"And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold." (Matthew 24:12).
Jesus said,
"And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many" (Matthew 24:11).
Paul said,
1 "This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.
2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,
4 Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
6 For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,
7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.
8 Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith.
9 But they shall proceed no further: for their folly shall be manifest unto all men, as theirs also was." (2 Timothy 3:1-9).
"Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?" (Luke 18:8).
Jesus said,
"And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold." (Matthew 24:12).
Jesus said,
"And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many" (Matthew 24:11).
Paul said,
1 "This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.
2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,
4 Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
6 For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,
7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.
8 Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith.
9 But they shall proceed no further: for their folly shall be manifest unto all men, as theirs also was." (2 Timothy 3:1-9).
Side Note:
Please take note that James says he will show you his faith by his works (James 2:18). So the faithless that Jesus talks about are those who are fruitless or those who do not have any truly good works. 2 Timothy 3:1-9 is also a revealing passage, as well. Basically it is saying what you are not supposed to be like. For this passage describes those who have a form of godliness and they are lovers of pleasure more than lovers of God. This means that a Belief Alone Type Gospel (that leads to one not being concerned about sin or not treating it as seriously) is not true.
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Soyeong
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A thing that fulfills the purpose for which it was created is a good, so good works are those done to testify about God's nature and to sanctify His name, which are in obedience to what God has commanded.
The phrase "works of the law" has no definitive article in the Greek, so it is literally translated as "works of law", which means that it does not refer to a definitive set of laws, such as THE Law of Moses, but rather Paul used it as a catch-all phrase to refer a large body of Jewish oral laws, traditions, rulings, and fences that were being taught that people needed to obey in order to become justified. For example, Acts 1:12 refers to returning to Jerusalem from the Mount called Olivet as being a Sabbath day's journey away, however, this is not something spelled out in the Mosaic Law. Likewise, in Acts 10:28, Peter referred to a law that forbade Jews to visit or associate with Gentiles, which again is not found in the Mosaic Law, and is therefore a man made law. It was this law that Peter was obeying in Galatians 2:11-16 when he stopped visiting or associating with the Gentiles, and by doing so, he was giving credibility to those who were wanting to require Gentiles to obey their works of the law in order to become justified, which is why Paul rebuked him and reiterated that we are justified by faith, not by works of the law.
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Soyeong
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By all means please explain where you think that I have made a circular argument.
Paul said in Romans 2:13 that only doers of the Mosaic Law will be justified, so our obedience to God's law is connected with our justification. In Matthew 7:23, Jesus said that he would tell those who are workers of lawlessness to depart from because he never knew them, so our obedience to God's law is connected with our salvation. In Matthew 19:17, Jesus said that the way to enter eternal life is by obeying God's commandments, so again our obedience is connected with eternal life. In John 3:36, believing in Jesus is equated with obeying him, in Revelation 14:12, those who kept faith in Jesus are the same as those who kept God's commandments, in Matthew 23:23, Jesus said that faith is one of the weightier matters of the law, and there are many other verses that associate faith with obedience, so our obedience to God should be considered to be acting in faith, and it is by that same faith that we are justified, are saved, and have eternal life.
James 2:21-26 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by his works; 23 and the Scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness”—and he was called a friend of God. 24 You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone. 25 And in the same way was not also Rahab the prostitute justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way? 26 For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so also faith apart from works is dead.
So Abraham was justified by faith and none of the works that he did played any part in earning his justification, but his justification nevertheless still involved doing works as an expression of his faith.
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I'm not quite understanding this. Are you saying there are a number of unforgivable sins? Like if Paul had committed a mortal sin he would be in hell right now?
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It comes off as circular to me as well. I just listened to John MacArthur teaching along these lines and I had a hard time following it. And the wording I've read by others before you comes out like, "It's not a cheese burger, it's a burger with cheese". Now I'm not arguing against what you're saying, I'm saying it's somewhat confusing to me and I'm sure others as well.
I'll hear stuff from John MacArthur that sounds like salvation is based on performance, which he's been accused of. But then I heard him say that if his salvation was up to him, he would lose it. Which I took to mean that if his salvation was based on his performance, he would lose it.
Having said that I can imagine getting a reply from whoever that, salvation isn't based on performance, but performance is the result of salvation. But the confusing part there is that MacArthur just said his performance isn't good enough.
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Soyeong
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Saying that Gentiles keep the law without having the law does not leave any room for following different sets of laws, otherwise Gentiles wouldn't be keeping the law. If you can't show anywhere in the Bible where it lists which laws are moral and which are not, and if you can't even show anywhere in the Bible where it even makes makes that distinction, then you have no grounds for trying to insert that distinction into this passage.
The definition of "moral law" that you listed states "and having the sanction of God's will", so by your definition, all of God's laws are inherently moral laws. God's laws are straightforwardly how God had made His will known (Psalms 40:8) and it wouldn't even make sense to think that God gave some laws that weren't in accordance with His will. God's laws are in regard to our relationship with our neighbor and/or God. If morality were only doing good in regard to our relationship with our neighbor, as we see on the news, and not in regard to our relationship with God, then it would be moral to commit idolatry, but if morality is also doing good in regard to our relationship with God, then all of God's laws are moral laws.
The Bible often uses the same terms to describe the nature of God and the nature of God's law, which is because it is God's instructions for how to testify about God's nature, such as with it being holy, righteous, and, good (Romans 7:12). Morality is based on God's nature, so again all of God's laws are inherently moral laws. So while it is moral to do what to meet the righteous requirement of the law, it is also moral to do what is holy and good, as well as to testify about other aspects of God's nature. In Ezekiel 36:26-27, the Spirit has the role in the New Covenant of leading us to obey the mishpatim, which are the righteous requirement of the law, but also has the role of leading us to obey the chukim, which are laws that you say are no longer binding.
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klutedavid
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Not sure if your correct on a number of points, Soyeong.
Deuteronomy 7:1-3
When the Lord your God brings you into the land where you are entering to possess it, and clears away many nations before you, the Hittites and the Girgashites and the Amorites and the Canaanites and the Perizzites and the Hivites and the Jebusites, seven nations greater and stronger than you, and when the Lord your God delivers them before you and you defeat them, then you shall utterly destroy them. You shall make no covenant with them and show no favor to them. Furthermore, you shall not intermarry with them; you shall not give your daughters to their sons, nor shall you take their daughters for your sons.
Jews would never associate with any folk from the nations mentioned above. They are Gentiles, prolific sinners, idolators, dogs, their unclean and uncircumcised. Why would any Jew want to visit a Gentile household, let alone eat in that house? That would be an abomination and against the law.
The Jews were instructed to destroy the Gentiles.
Deuteronomy 7:1-3
When the Lord your God brings you into the land where you are entering to possess it, and clears away many nations before you, the Hittites and the Girgashites and the Amorites and the Canaanites and the Perizzites and the Hivites and the Jebusites, seven nations greater and stronger than you, and when the Lord your God delivers them before you and you defeat them, then you shall utterly destroy them. You shall make no covenant with them and show no favor to them. Furthermore, you shall not intermarry with them; you shall not give your daughters to their sons, nor shall you take their daughters for your sons.
Jews would never associate with any folk from the nations mentioned above. They are Gentiles, prolific sinners, idolators, dogs, their unclean and uncircumcised. Why would any Jew want to visit a Gentile household, let alone eat in that house? That would be an abomination and against the law.
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