Null/Voided Out

Not only do you have to confess it with your mouth, you have to believe it in your heart - Romans 10:9-19 and faith without works is dead James 2:14-26. Pick up your cross and follow me.

Light of the East said:

Clare73 said:

Feeler: How do you feel about the fact that all God's works are for his glory through the glory of his Son, Jesus Christ?

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Thanks for your response.
You may be a victim of the great stress laid today on the thought that God is personal, where it is stated in such a way that it leaves the impression God is the same sort of person we are--weak, inadequate, ineffective, a little pathetic. This is not the God of of the Bible. Like us, he is personal, but unlike us he is unlimited, eternal, infinite, almighty; i.e. great.

But of all of God attributes, his defining characteristic is holiness. That is who he IS.
While to the human mind, judgment/wrath of God seem to be unworthy of him, in his deep holiness wrath is a right and necessary reaction to objective moral evil.

Analogy: think if you had three daughters under the age of eight, who were raped, butchered and dismembered. What, as a father, would you feel toward the murderer--you would feel a just wrath.
Would you be a loving father if you just overlooked this egregious offense in the name of love?

That's the territory we are in with God, he is only angry where anger is called for.
Would you be righteous if you were not likewise wrathful toward the murderer of your daughters?
That's the territory we are in with God's holiness.

If our ideas of God weren't so weak, if we had not made him so small, brought him down to our level, re-created him in our own image, we would better appreciate these things.

May I recommend a wonderful book to bring one up to speed in this day and time when our knowledge of God is so weak and immature, so man-centered?
It would be the classic, "Knowing God" by J. I. Packer, 1973, from Inter Varsity Press, Downers Grove, ILL, 60615.
I can't recommend it highly enough. . .and I know you will like it.
.

Saint Steven said:

Here are a few Universalist scriptures. What you posted is Damnationism. (obviously)
Also, there is a whole long list of Bibles/NTs that do not include the word hell. I'll provide that as well. Thanks.

1 John 2:2
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world....

Click to expand...

The word hell is not necessary. The idea that some will be destroyed, doesn’t vanish, if we don’t use the word hell.

And the idea of destruction is not in contradiction with the idea of salvation for all. The salvation is offered for all, but not forced to all, and not all accept it and not all become righteous. And as the Bible tells, eternal life is for righteous.

These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.
Mat. 25:46

For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Romans 6:23

The scriptures you gave are good, thank you, but I think they are in contradiction only if you give wrong meanings to them.

QUOTE="Clare73


You may be a victim of the great stress laid today on the thought that God is personal, where it is stated in such a way as to leave the impression that God is the same sort of person we are--weak, inadequate, ineffective, a little pathetic. This is not the God of of the Bible. Like us, he is personal, but unlike us he is unlimited, eternal, infinite, almighty; i.e. great.

Those are attributes. But the Bible says that His very being is love. God IS love. That is the foundation of all other things which are ascribed to Him.

But of all of God attributes, his defining characteristic is holiness. That is who he IS.
While to the human mind, judgment/wrath of God seem to be unworthy of him, in his deep holiness wrath is a right and necessary reaction to objective moral evil.

Totally and completely wrong. Where did human beings get the idea that holiness is somehow to be associated with wrath, anger, and vengeance, which are primarily human characteristics?? Theologians teach that the word "holy" means "set apart unto God." Holiness therefore must have something to do with that definition, and in understanding God's holiness, it must mean that He is completely set apart unto Himself. That is, nothing outside Himself affects Him in any manner in being who He is.

And He is love. You seem incapable of understanding this. You seem incapable (as are all hellists) of really putting a face to love and how utterly different it is from what we think it is. We have the greatest example of God's love on the Cross when Jesus said "Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do."

Analogy: think if you had three daughters under the age of eight, who were raped, butchered and dismembered. What, as a father, would you feel toward the murderer--you would feel a just wrath.
Would you be a loving father if you just overlooked this egregious offense in the name of love?

"Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do." The Father watched as mankind did unthinkable things to His beloved and only-begotten Son. Now did the Father act in just wrath, or did He forgive each and every person who was involved in the murder, torture, and vile treatment of His beloved Son? And that includes you and me, because if we had been there, we would have driven the nails into the Son's hands ourselves. We might even have fought with each other to hold the hammer.

That's the territory we are in with God, he is only angry where anger is called for.
Would you be righteous if you were not likewise wrathful toward the murderer of your daughters?

Baloney! If mere humans can do this:

Amish Forgive School Shooter, Struggle with Grief

then moreso can God forgive even the most heinous acts. These Amish families exemplified the heart of God in forgiving the man who shot up a whole school full of their children. Furthermore, using your analogy, what man who would really be filled with love would hate and want revenge on the murderer if he found that the man had brain parasites or some other illness which made him do these things? In other words, if the man didn't know what he was doing because he was sick? That is our condition - we are sick - and a true father does not take a sick child and throw that child into a fire. He finds a physician and heals that child. A father who really loves his child does not get angry over the child's bad behavior, he grieves for the illness and looks for the cure. Our Father in heaven does not seek to destroy, but to heal.

That's the territory we are in with God's holiness.

You have no idea who God is. Neither do I. You don't seem to understand that human beings are like the dwarves in C.S. Lewis's THE FINAL BATTLE - blind, in darkness, and not caring to try to see clearly.

If our ideas of God weren't so weak, if we had not made him so small, brought him down to our level, re-created him in our own image, we would better appreciate these things.

It is thinking that He acts like us - vengeful, filled with wrath, desiring to kill His own children, which brings Him down to our level and makes Him smaller than we are. What makes Him greater than us is that He sees everything clearly and yet chooses to come down to earth and die for us on the Cross so that we can all eventually get back home.

I don't know about you, but I don't want a God who is like the rest of us. I want a God whose love is magnificent beyond any ability of mine to comprehend or imagine.

May I recommend a wonderful book to bring one up to speed in this day and time when our knowledge of God is so weak and immature, so man-centered?

It would be the classic, "Knowing God" by J. I. Packer, 1973, from Inter Varsity Press, Downers Grove, ILL, 60615.

I can't recommend it highly enough.

Already read it years ago when I was a Protestant. Thank God I have found the True Church and the True Faith instead of something made up by men 1500 years after the Christ and the Apostles walked the earth. I just wish I had found it 40 years ago when I was still young. I think I would have been a different father to my children instead of what I was because of being terrorized by Bible-thumpers who presented our loving heavenly Father as the "ever-angry God ready to send people to hell."

Light of the East said:

Clare73 said:

You may be a victim of the great stress laid today on the thought that God is personal, where it is stated in such a way as to leave the impression that God is the same sort of person we are--weak, inadequate, ineffective, a little pathetic. This is not the God of of the Bible. Like us, he is personal, but unlike us he is unlimited, eternal, infinite, almighty; i.e. great.

Those are attributes. But the Bible says that His very being is love. God IS love. That is the foundation of all other things which are ascribed to Him.

But of all of God attributes, his defining characteristic is holiness. That is who he IS.
While to the human mind, judgment/wrath of God seem to be unworthy of him, in his deep holiness wrath is a right and necessary reaction to objective moral evil.

Totally and completely wrong. Where did human beings get the idea that holiness is somehow to be associated with wrath, anger, and vengeance, which are primarily human characteristics?? Theologians teach that the word "holy" means "set apart unto God." Holiness therefore must have something to do with that definition, and in understanding God's holiness, it must mean that He is completely set apart unto Himself. That is, nothing outside Himself affects Him in any manner in being who He is.

And He is love. You seem incapable of understanding this. You seem incapable (as are all hellists) of really putting a face to love and how utterly different it is from what we think it is. We have the greatest example of God's love on the Cross when Jesus said "Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do."

Analogy: think if you had three daughters under the age of eight, who were raped, butchered and dismembered. What, as a father, would you feel toward the murderer--you would feel a just wrath.
Would you be a loving father if you just overlooked this egregious offense in the name of love?

"Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do." The Father watched as mankind did unthinkable things to His beloved and only-begotten Son. Now did the Father act in just wrath, or did He forgive each and every person who was involved in the murder, torture, and vile treatment of His beloved Son? And that includes you and me, because if we had been there, we would have driven the nails into the Son's hands ourselves. We might even have fought with each other to hold the hammer.

That's the territory we are in with God, he is only angry where anger is called for.
Would you be righteous if you were not likewise wrathful toward the murderer of your daughters?

Baloney! If mere humans can do this:

Amish Forgive School Shooter, Struggle with Grief

then moreso can God forgive even the most heinous acts. These Amish families exemplified the heart of God in forgiving the man who shot up a whole school full of their children. Furthermore, using your analogy, what man who would really be filled with love would hate and want revenge on the murderer if he found that the man had brain parasites or some other illness which made him do these things? In other words, if the man didn't know what he was doing because he was sick? That is our condition - we are sick - and a true father does not take a sick child and throw that child into a fire. He finds a physician and heals that child. A father who really loves his child does not get angry over the child's bad behavior, he grieves for the illness and looks for the cure. Our Father in heaven does not seek to destroy, but to heal.

That's the territory we are in with God's holiness.

You have no idea who God is. Neither do I. You don't seem to understand that human beings are like the dwarves in C.S. Lewis's THE FINAL BATTLE - blind, in darkness, and not caring to try to see clearly.

If our ideas of God weren't so weak, if we had not made him so small, brought him down to our level, re-created him in our own image, we would better appreciate these things.

It is thinking that He acts like us - vengeful, filled with wrath, desiring to kill His own children, which brings Him down to our level and makes Him smaller than we are. What makes Him greater than us is that He sees everything clearly and yet chooses to come down to earth and die for us on the Cross so that we can all eventually get back home.

I don't know about you, but I don't want a God who is like the rest of us. I want a God whose love is magnificent beyond any ability of mine to comprehend or imagine.

May I recommend a wonderful book to bring one up to speed in this day and time when our knowledge of God is so weak and immature, so man-centered?

It would be the classic, "Knowing God" by J. I. Packer, 1973, from Inter Varsity Press, Downers Grove, ILL, 60615.

I can't recommend it highly enough.

Already read it years ago when I was a Protestant. Thank God I have found the True Church and the True Faith instead of something made up by men 1500 years after the Christ and the Apostles walked the earth. I just wish I had found it 40 years ago when I was still young. I think I would have been a different father to my children instead of what I was because of being terrorized by Bible-thumpers who presented our loving heavenly Father as the "ever-angry God ready to send people to hell."

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

My friend, God's wrath is the just response to Satan's works, the source of all evil.
Even man's laws require punishment for evil.
Are you saying our own judicial system should just forgive all manner of crime--murder, rape, assault, theft, etc.?
Do you adequately apprehend the existence, nature, and problem of evil?

Are you aware of NT teaching:
--God's wrath remains on those who reject the Son (Jn 3:36),
--God's wrath being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness (Ro 1:18),
--God's mercy in saving us from his wrath on his enemies (Ro 5:9-10),
--let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of such things (immoral, impure, greedy, idolatry) God's wrath comes on those who are disobedient (Eph 5:5-6)
--because of these (sexual immorality, impurity, lust, evil desires and greed, which is idolatry) the wrath of God is coming (Col 3:5-6),
--Jesus rescues us from the coming wrath (1Th 1:10),

all of this being from Paul who received his revelation from Jesus personally in the third heaven
(2Co 12:1-5)?

Is it that you just do not believe the Word of God written?
Are you rejecting the God of Scripture for a more suitable God in the image of man?
I'm thinking your new church is really the right place for you.
Is it in agreement with your views of God?

QUOTE="Clare73

My friend, God's wrath is the just response to Satan's works, the source of all evil.

So what you are saying is that God created all that is, including sentient beings, knowing that they would fall and that His response would then be to condemn them to eternal torment, right? In other words, His goal in creation was to create a large number of people whose only end would be to suffer forever. He went ahead and did that rather than saying "Well, if creating these poor creatures would mean that just about all of them would suffer forever, then I am not going to do this because I have no need to do this."

This is like the fireman who goes out and sets a house on fire in order that he can appear at the fire and put it out, looking to be a hero. No being -whether human or God - who has love in their heart, would ever create a sentient being which would come into existence for the mere purpose of tormenting it forever.

A few years ago, a man and woman conceived a child in order to have an available kidney for their first child, who was desperately ill. People were outraged at this hard-hearted act of conception. How much more should the idea that God created mankind for the goal of them suffering forever? What kind of all-powerful, all-knowing, all-loving God would so such a thing?

Even man's laws require punishment for evil.

Man's laws are a reflection of the justice of God. Or, at least, they are supposed to be. So what is the proper standard for punishment? The Bible gives us an answer, but I want to see if you know it. Please describe for me the biblical punishment as found in Scripture - lex talionis.

Are you saying our own judicial system should just forgive all manner of crime--murder, rape, assault, theft, etc.?

Once again, you show that you do not understand Apokatastasis AT ALL. Part and parcel of Universal Salvation is that the sinner is punished. When the punishment is finished, it is over. It does not go on forever and ever.

Do you adequately apprehend the existence, nature, and problem of evil?

Do YOU???

Are you aware of NT teaching:
--God's wrath remains on those who reject the Son (Jn 3:36),
--God's wrath being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness (Ro 1:18),
--God's mercy in saving us from his wrath on his enemies (Ro 5:9-10),
--let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of such things (immoral, impure, greedy, idolatry) God's wrath comes on those who are disobedient (Eph 5:5-6)
--because of these (sexual immorality, impurity, lust, evil desires and greed, which is idolatry) the wrath of God is coming (Col 3:5-6),
--Jesus rescues us from the coming wrath (1Th 1:10),

all of this being from Paul who received his revelation from Jesus personally in the third heaven
(2Co 12:1-5)?

Let's look at the word translated "wrath"

STRONGS NT 3709: ὀργή
ὀργή, ὀργῆς, ἡ (from ὀργάω to teem, denoting an internal motion, especially that of plants and fruits swelling with juice (Curtius, § 152); cf. Latinturgerealicui forirascialicui in Plautus Cas. 2, 5, 17; Most. 3, 2, 10; cf. German arg, Aerger), in Greek writings from Hesiod down "the natural disposition, temper, character; movement or agitation of soul, impulse, desire, any violent emotion," but especially (and chiefly in Attic) anger. In Biblical Greek anger, wrath, indignation (on the distinction between it and θυμός, see θυμός, 1): Ephesians 4:31; Colossians 3:8; James 1:19f; μετ' ὀργῆς, indignant (A. V. with anger), Mark 3:5; χωρίς ὀργῆς, 1 Timothy 2:8; anger exhibited in punishing, hence, used for the punishment itself (Demosthenes or. in middle § 43): of the punishments inflicted by magistrates, Romans 13:4; διά τήν ὀργήν, i. e. because disobedience is visited with punishment, Romans 13:5. The ὀργή attributed to God in the N. T. is that in God which stands opposed to man's disobedience, obduracy (especially in resisting the gospel) and sin, and manifests itself in punishing the same: John 3:36; Romans 1:18; Romans 4:15; Romans 9:22a; Hebrews 3:11; Hebrews 4:3; Revelation 14:10; Revelation 16:19; Revelation 19:15; absolutely, ἡ ὀργή, Romans 12:19 (cf. Winer's Grammar, 594 (553)); σκεύη ὀργῆς, vessels into which wrath will be poured (at the last day), explained by the addition κατηρτισμένα εἰς ἀπώλειαν, Romans 9:22b; ἡ μελλουσα ὀργή, which at the last day will be exhibited in penalties, Matthew 3:7; Luke 3:7 (others understand in these two passages the (national) judgments immediately impending to be referred to — at least primarily); also ἡ ὀργή ἡ ἐρχομένη, 1 Thessalonians 1:10; ἡμέρα ὀργῆς, the day on which the wrath of God will be made manifest in the punishment of the wicked (cf. Winer's Grammar, § 30, 2 a.), Romans 2:5; and ἡ ἡμέρα ἡ μεγάλη τῆς ὀργῆς αὐτοῦ (Revelation 6:17; see ἡμέρα, 3 at the end); ἔρχεται ἡ ὀργή τοῦ Θεοῦ ἐπί τινα, the wrath of God cometh upon one in the infliction of penalty (cf. Winer's Grammar, § 40, 2 a.), Ephesians 5:6; Colossians 3:6 (T Tr WH omit; L brackets ἐπί etc.); ἔφθασε (ἔφθακεν L text WH marginal reading) ἐπ' αὐτούς ἡ ὀργή, 1 Thessalonians 2:16; so ἡ ὀργή passes over into the notion of retribution and punishment, Luke 21:23; Rom. (Romans 2:8); Romans 3:5; 5:9; Revelation 11:18; τέκνα ὀργῆς, men exposed to divine punishment, Ephesians 2:3; εἰς ὀργήν, unto wrath, i. e. to undergo punishment in misery, 1 Thessalonians 5:9. ὀργή is attributed to Christ also when he comes as Messianic judge, Revelation 6:16. (The Sept. for עֶבְרָה, wrath, outburst of anger, זַעַם, חֵמָה, חָרון, קֶצֶף, etc.; but chiefly for אַף.) Cf. Ferd. Weber, Vom Zorne Gottes. Erlang. 1862; Ritschl, Die christl. Lehre v. d. Rechtfertigung u. Versöhnung, ii., p. 118ff.

We see here that the main thrust of the wrath of God is punishment. Now what did Jesus say about punishment?

Mat 18:34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him. 35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.

AND

Mat 5:25 Agree with thine adversary quickly, whiles thou art in the way with him; lest at any time the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison. 26 Verily I say unto thee, Thou shalt by no means come out thence, till thou hast paid the uttermost farthing.

The context of these verses is the obtaining of the Kingdom of God. In them we see that the wicked shall be punished until they have discharged the debt they have accrued here on earth.

Punishment is meant to have a correctional aspect to it. That is why we used to call them "Correctional Facilities." The idea is for the one being punished to experience the pain of his wrong doing, to make restitution for the wrong done, and to have time to reflect upon the choices in his life. This is exactly what will happen when we stand before Christ. We will understand the evil we have done to others. We will discharge the debt we owe to God. And our separation from God will strip away all false pretenses, all false comforts such as money, prestige, and power, and we will see and reflect upon the fact that without Him we have no existence at all. He is the source of all life. The redeemed have already begun to understand this, but for the wicked, this revelation will be torment to them. The more wicked they have ben, the more evil they have done, the longer and greater will be their torment until their torment and repentance "pays the uttermost farthing."

In closing, so you don't forget, please describe for me the biblical punishment as found in Scripture - lex talionis.

1213 said:

The word hell is not necessary. The idea that some will be destroyed, doesn’t vanish, if we don’t use the word hell.

And the idea of destruction is not in contradiction with the idea of salvation for all. The salvation is offered for all, but not forced to all, and not all accept it and not all become righteous. And as the Bible tells, eternal life is for righteous.

These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.
Mat. 25:46

For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Romans 6:23

The scriptures you gave are good, thank you, but I think they are in contradiction only if you give wrong meanings to them.

Click to expand...

This is one of the most frustrating things we deal with when speaking with hellists or annihilationists -- changing the meaning of words by sleight of hand lexical tricks. In the art of communication, precision is required for complete and proper understanding of what is being said. Thus, if I am sitting with a man from South Korea and through an interpreter I say "Tell him that I would like to buy him a coffee" and the interpreter says in Korean "He wants to kill you." was the proper meaning of the words conveyed to the man I am addressing?

All means all. It does not mean "only all of a certain group." as the Calvinists aver. It doesn't mean "all of one kind" or "all of one race". All means every single one - period. Therefore, when Scripture says

Romans 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

then it means exactly what it says with no weasel clauses by hellists to try to keep their happy little hellfires going for the majority of mankind. ALL!

Romans 11:32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

It is not Universalists who give wrong meanings to Scripture. The entirety of Western translations of the Sacred Scriptures, starting with Augustine and his wretched anthropological ideas, has trashed the proper interpretation of what Jesus and Paul said. Both the KJV (favorite of Protestants) and the Douay-Rheims (favorite of Roman Catholics) translations are ATROCIOUS!!! The more I study and learn about just how dishonest the translators have been in handling the Scriptures, the more I understand how David Bentley Hart can be so acerbic in his statements about certain "theologians" who either lack the mental firepower to think about what they believe in, or are just plain old lazy.

Light of the East said:

Clare73 said:

My friend, God's wrath is the just response to Satan's works, the source of all evil.

So what you are saying is that God created all that is, including sentient beings, knowing that they would fall and that His response would then be to condemn them to eternal torment, right? In other words, His goal in creation was to create a large number of people whose only end would be to suffer forever. He went ahead and did that rather than saying "Well, if creating these poor creatures would mean that just about all of them would suffer forever, then I am not going to do this because I have no need to do this."

This is like the fireman who goes out and sets a house on fire in order that he can appear at the fire and put it out, looking to be a hero. No being -whether human or God - who has love in their heart, would ever create a sentient being which would come into existence for the mere purpose of tormenting it forever.

A few years ago, a man and woman conceived a child in order to have an available kidney for their first child, who was desperately ill. People were outraged at this hard-hearted act of conception. How much more should the idea that God created mankind for the goal of them suffering forever? What kind of all-powerful, all-knowing, all-loving God would so such a thing?

Even man's laws require punishment for evil.

Man's laws are a reflection of the justice of God. Or, at least, they are supposed to be. So what is the proper standard for punishment? The Bible gives us an answer, but I want to see if you know it. Please describe for me the biblical punishment as found in Scripture - lex talionis.

Are you saying our own judicial system should just forgive all manner of crime--murder, rape, assault, theft, etc.?

Once again, you show that you do not understand Apokatastasis AT ALL. Part and parcel of Universal Salvation is that the sinner is punished. When the punishment is finished, it is over. It does not go on forever and ever.

Do you adequately apprehend the existence, nature, and problem of evil?

Do YOU???

Are you aware of NT teaching:
--God's wrath remains on those who reject the Son (Jn 3:36),
--God's wrath being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness (Ro 1:18),
--God's mercy in saving us from his wrath on his enemies (Ro 5:9-10),
--let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of such things (immoral, impure, greedy, idolatry) God's wrath comes on those who are disobedient (Eph 5:5-6)
--because of these (sexual immorality, impurity, lust, evil desires and greed, which is idolatry) the wrath of God is coming (Col 3:5-6),
--Jesus rescues us from the coming wrath (1Th 1:10),

all of this being from Paul who received his revelation from Jesus personally in the third heaven
(2Co 12:1-5)?

Let's look at the word translated "wrath"

STRONGS NT 3709: ὀργή
ὀργή, ὀργῆς, ἡ (from ὀργάω to teem, denoting an internal motion, especially that of plants and fruits swelling with juice (Curtius, § 152); cf. Latinturgerealicui forirascialicui in Plautus Cas. 2, 5, 17; Most. 3, 2, 10; cf. German arg, Aerger), in Greek writings from Hesiod down "the natural disposition, temper, character; movement or agitation of soul, impulse, desire, any violent emotion," but especially (and chiefly in Attic) anger. In Biblical Greek anger, wrath, indignation (on the distinction between it and θυμός, see θυμός, 1): Ephesians 4:31; Colossians 3:8; James 1:19f; μετ' ὀργῆς, indignant (A. V. with anger), Mark 3:5; χωρίς ὀργῆς, 1 Timothy 2:8; anger exhibited in punishing, hence, used for the punishment itself (Demosthenes or. in middle § 43): of the punishments inflicted by magistrates, Romans 13:4; διά τήν ὀργήν, i. e. because disobedience is visited with punishment, Romans 13:5. The ὀργή attributed to God in the N. T. is that in God which stands opposed to man's disobedience, obduracy (especially in resisting the gospel) and sin, and manifests itself in punishing the same: John 3:36; Romans 1:18; Romans 4:15; Romans 9:22a; Hebrews 3:11; Hebrews 4:3; Revelation 14:10; Revelation 16:19; Revelation 19:15; absolutely, ἡ ὀργή, Romans 12:19 (cf. Winer's Grammar, 594 (553)); σκεύη ὀργῆς, vessels into which wrath will be poured (at the last day), explained by the addition κατηρτισμένα εἰς ἀπώλειαν, Romans 9:22b; ἡ μελλουσα ὀργή, which at the last day will be exhibited in penalties, Matthew 3:7; Luke 3:7 (others understand in these two passages the (national) judgments immediately impending to be referred to — at least primarily); also ἡ ὀργή ἡ ἐρχομένη, 1 Thessalonians 1:10; ἡμέρα ὀργῆς, the day on which the wrath of God will be made manifest in the punishment of the wicked (cf. Winer's Grammar, § 30, 2 a.), Romans 2:5; and ἡ ἡμέρα ἡ μεγάλη τῆς ὀργῆς αὐτοῦ (Revelation 6:17; see ἡμέρα, 3 at the end); ἔρχεται ἡ ὀργή τοῦ Θεοῦ ἐπί τινα, the wrath of God cometh upon one in the infliction of penalty (cf. Winer's Grammar, § 40, 2 a.), Ephesians 5:6; Colossians 3:6 (T Tr WH omit; L brackets ἐπί etc.); ἔφθασε (ἔφθακεν L text WH marginal reading) ἐπ' αὐτούς ἡ ὀργή, 1 Thessalonians 2:16; so ἡ ὀργή passes over into the notion of retribution and punishment, Luke 21:23; Rom. (Romans 2:8); Romans 3:5; 5:9; Revelation 11:18; τέκνα ὀργῆς, men exposed to divine punishment, Ephesians 2:3; εἰς ὀργήν, unto wrath, i. e. to undergo punishment in misery, 1 Thessalonians 5:9. ὀργή is attributed to Christ also when he comes as Messianic judge, Revelation 6:16. (The Sept. for עֶבְרָה, wrath, outburst of anger, זַעַם, חֵמָה, חָרון, קֶצֶף, etc.; but chiefly for אַף.) Cf. Ferd. Weber, Vom Zorne Gottes. Erlang. 1862; Ritschl, Die christl. Lehre v. d. Rechtfertigung u. Versöhnung, ii., p. 118ff.

We see here that the main thrust of the wrath of God is punishment. Now what did Jesus say about punishment?

Mat 18:34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him. 35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.

AND

Mat 5:25 Agree with thine adversary quickly, whiles thou art in the way with him; lest at any time the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison. 26 Verily I say unto thee, Thou shalt by no means come out thence, till thou hast paid the uttermost farthing.

The context of these verses is the obtaining of the Kingdom of God. In them we see that the wicked shall be punished until they have discharged the debt they have accrued here on earth.

Punishment is meant to have a correctional aspect to it. That is why we used to call them "Correctional Facilities." The idea is for the one being punished to experience the pain of his wrong doing, to make restitution for the wrong done, and to have time to reflect upon the choices in his life. This is exactly what will happen when we stand before Christ. We will understand the evil we have done to others. We will discharge the debt we owe to God. And our separation from God will strip away all false pretenses, all false comforts such as money, prestige, and power, and we will see and reflect upon the fact that without Him we have no existence at all. He is the source of all life. The redeemed have already begun to understand this, but for the wicked, this revelation will be torment to them. The more wicked they have ben, the more evil they have done, the longer and greater will be their torment until their torment and repentance "pays the uttermost farthing."

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In closing, so you don't forget, please describe for me the biblical punishment as found in Scripture - lex talionis.

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Okay, so we now agree on the Word of God written establishing God's wrath.

I note that "until the debt is paid" does not equate to "the debt actually being paid," if it is an unpayable debt to the infinite God's justice.
I note that for debt to God to be forgiven (paid-up), only the atoning death of the infinite divine Son of God sufficed.
I'm thinking everlasting torment of the finite is not equivalent to the atoning death of the infinite divine Son of God.
I'm thinking the requirement of the death of the divine Son of God establishes both the
infinite magnitude of the debt to the infinite God, and the impossibility of the finite paying it off.

The finite cannot pay off a debt to the infinite, anymore than my dog himself can pay off the debt he owes me for destroying my shoes, tearing up my flower bed, taking down and eating the freshly cooked roast on the kitchen counter and destroying the inside of my front door.
I'm thinking that the finite accomplishing those objectives regarding the infinite is impossible on the face of it, which is why only the atoning death of the divine infinite Son of God would suffice.

Your inequity in this arena makes either God finite or man infinite, both of which are contra-Biblical.

Now let's move to his Judgment.

I've asked you before. . .you did not answer, so I'll ask again:

what do you do with what Jesus said in Mk 9:43, 47-48; and with Lk 3:17; Rev 14:11, 19:2, 3, 20:15, 21:8
which fire is unending (fire that never goes out, fire unquenchable)?

In the above texts are the answers to your request for description of the Biblical consequences for the goats, until you can make your question more specific.

I do not offer an answer for the nature of the fire, only what Scripture states in that regard: torment.

I do offer that the Lake of Fire, to which the goats are assigned, was prepared for the devil and his angels, from which fire I find nothing in Scripture that releases them.

I do find that in the culmination of God's plan of redemption (Rev 21:1-4) in the new creation
(Rev 21:5), they remain in the Lake of Fire along with the goats (Rev 21:8).
Scripture reveals nothing more than this culmination.
Anything more is speculation.

Shrewd Manager said:

And is His purpose salvation?

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For His children, yes.

Shrewd Manager said:

And the rest are just plain DOOMED?

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Have you never read Romans 9?

Shrewd Manager said:

Where is that distinction made in scripture?

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Ephesians 1, Ephesians 2, Romans 8:29-30, Romans 9, 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14, Acts 2:39, Acts 2:47, Acts 13:48 and many others.

Shrewd Manager said:

All are lost and blind until God shows His grace, none can boast in their own works of salvation.

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I agree with the underlined.

1213 said:

The scriptures you gave are good, thank you, but I think they are in contradiction only if you give wrong meanings to them.

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I only claim that they mean what they plainly say. Is that too much to ask?

QUOTE="Clare73

You didn't answer my question. What is "lex talionis?"

I note that "until the debt is paid" does not equate to "the debt actually being paid," if it is an unpayable debt to the infinite God's justice.

Wrong again. Honestly, if every time you were wrong was a nickel, you could have retired now. Let's look at why you are wrong. First of all, if the debt was not payable, then Jesus would not have said what He said, would He? I mean, is He the all-knowing God or some bumbling carpenter from Nazareth? You act as if He didn't know what He was inferring when He said that the debt must be paid "to the last farthing."

Then you are wrong because you infer the the debt is infinite. Show me where the Bible says that, since you are the Bible-thumper.

I note that for debt to God to be forgiven (paid-up), only the atoning death of the infinite divine Son of God sufficed.

Except that is not what the death of Christ was about - AT ALL!! This is why I am Orthodox - because we don't use "penal substitution theory" as having anything to do with the death of Christ on the Cross. He was not paying a debt. That is, once again, an erroneous concept which Roman Catholicism began many centuries ago. What Jesus was doing was defeating death. During Pascha (Easter to you Westerners) we sing repeatedly "Christ is risen from the dead. By death He conquered death. And to those in the tombs, He granted life." Death is defeated by His death. Has nothing to do with paying off the debt of mankind as a whole.

Now, as individuals, we do incure a debt according to the sins which we commit. That debt is what "lex talionis" is about. Again, I ask you do define lex talionis.

I'm thinking everlasting torment of the finite is not equivalent to the atoning death of the infinite divine Son of God.

Wrong. See above. Not about penal substitutionary atonement.

I'm thinking the requirement of the death of the divine Son of God establishes both the
infinite magnitude of the debt to the infinite God, and the impossibility of the finite paying it off.

Wrong again. By death He conquered death. That's what the Cross is about. It is not about debt.

I've asked you before. . .you did not answer, so I'll ask again:

what do you do with what Jesus said in Mk 9:43, 47-48; and with Lk 3:17; Rev 14:11, 19:2, 3,
which fire is unending (fire that never goes out, fire unquenchable)?

I didn't answer because I was busy. I have a life, and it is not sitting in front of a computer monitor 24/7.

The fire is God. The Early Fathers have said that this fire which is God is part of His passionate love. There is no "fire" in the sense of something which is external to Him. The Bible defines the fire and what it is. The fire spoken about and that John saw in Revelation is God.

Hebrews 12:29 For our God is a consuming fire.

In the above texts are the answers to your request for description of the Biblical consequences for the goats, until you can make your question more specific.

I do not offer an answer for the nature of the fire, only what Scripture states in that regard: torment.

Yes, the fire of God, which is His passionate love, is a torment to those who come into His presence with their sinful natures craving fulfillment. Imagine Hugh Hefner, that degenerate who lived for fornication. Imagine Him going to be in front of Christ with those passions raging. Not only can He not satiate them, but now for the first time ever, the scales are taken from his eyes and he sees the truth - that he abused women and used them as objects. You have no idea how this is tormenting him, most likely even now, because of the depth of his sinfulness.

I do offer that the Lake of Fire, to which the goats are assigned, was prepared for the devil and his angels, from which fire I find nothing in Scripture that releases them.

The Scriptures are silent on the end of the devil and the angels, so will not comment either. However, the Scriptures are not silent on mankind, as I have repeatedly shared with you and you apparently do now with to comment upon. Numerous verses state clearly that God will have mercy on all - ALL! Not a few - ALL!!

You have the traditional habit of pushing verses that support your viewpoint and ignoring verses that destroy what you believe. And Universalists have an answer for every object you could bring forward. You just refuse to believe them. Why? Are you afraid that if you believe that God is really and truly so loving that He will find a way to bring all Home to Him that He will get angry with you and slap you around a bit?

That's the God I was taught to believe in when I was a Bob Jones Fundamentalist. You do and believe everything JUST SO and if you don't - POWIEEE!!! - God will smack you right in the kisser (or in the wallet if you dare not tithe to Preacher Marks)

QUOTE="Navair2, post

Have you never read Romans 9?

Yes. And one day it became clear to me that Paul is speaking about those who were "elect" to be spared the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70 and those who weren't. And this was not an arbitrary decision on God's part either. Jesus told the Pharisees that it was not given to them to understand His parables that they might believe and be saved. Then He said why - because they had first hardened their hearts.

Since you are keen on Romans, let's move to Romans 11:32
For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

Romans 11 is the wrap-up of the section between chapters 9 & 11. It is about the Jews of Paul's day and God's dealing with them. Has nothing to do with anything beyond 70 AD and the destruction of Jerusalem.

Ephesians 1, Ephesians 2, Romans 8:29-30, Romans 9, 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14, Acts 2:39, Acts 2:47, Acts 13:48 and many others

As for Acts 2: 39, I note that you conveniently skip over verse 40.

Act 2:39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call. 40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from THIS untoward generation.

Paul's dealings are with the Jews of his day and his warnings are to his brethren to escape the coming wrath which was to fall upon Jerusalem in AD 70. This is also the thrust of Romans 9 - 11. The predestined are those whom God in His foreknowledge saw would not harden their hearts against His Christ. The non-elect were those who, like the Pharisees, hardened their hearts. But even despite this, the final verdict is that God will have mercy on all - some now so they escape His chastening hand and the tormenting fires of His purging love, and some by purging them by making them go through the hell of His love to be chastened and cleansed.

Light of the East said:

Clare73 said:

You didn't answer my question. What is "lex talionis?"

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I'm not familiar with Latin.

I note that "until the debt is paid" does not equate to "the debt actually being paid," if it is an unpayable debt to the infinite God's justice.

Wrong again. Honestly, if every time you were wrong was a nickel, you could have retired now. Let's look at why you are wrong. First of all, if the debt was not payable, then Jesus would not have said what He said, would He? I mean, is He the all-knowing God or some bumbling carpenter from Nazareth? You act as if He didn't know what He was inferring when He said that the debt must be paid "to the last farthing."

Then you are wrong because you infer the the debt is infinite. Show me where the Bible says that, since you are the Bible-thumper.

I note that for debt to God to be forgiven (paid-up), only the atoning death of the infinite divine Son of God sufficed.

Except that is not what the death of Christ was about - AT ALL!! This is why I am Orthodox - because we don't use "penal substitution theory" as having anything to do with the death of Christ on the Cross. He was not paying a debt. That is, once again, an erroneous concept which Roman Catholicism began many centuries ago. What Jesus was doing was defeating death. During Pascha (Easter to you Westerners) we sing repeatedly "Christ is risen from the dead. By death He conquered death. And to those in the tombs, He granted life." Death is defeated by His death. Has nothing to do with paying off the debt of mankind as a whole.

Now, as individuals, we do incure a debt according to the sins which we commit. That debt is what "lex talionis" is about. Again, I ask you do define lex talionis.

I'm thinking everlasting torment of the finite is not equivalent to the atoning death of the infinite divine Son of God.

Wrong. See above. Not about penal substitutionary atonement.

I'm thinking the requirement of the death of the divine Son of God establishes both the
infinite magnitude of the debt to the infinite God, and the impossibility of the finite paying it off.

Wrong again. By death He conquered death. That's what the Cross is about. It is not about debt.

I've asked you before. . .you did not answer, so I'll ask again:

what do you do with what Jesus said in Mk 9:43, 47-48; and with Lk 3:17; Rev 14:11, 19:2, 3,
which fire is unending (fire that never goes out, fire unquenchable)?

I didn't answer because I was busy. I have a life, and it is not sitting in front of a computer monitor 24/7.

The fire is God. The Early Fathers have said that this fire which is God is part of His passionate love. There is no "fire" in the sense of something which is external to Him. The Bible defines the fire and what it is. The fire spoken about and that John saw in Revelation is God.

Hebrews 12:29 For our God is a consuming fire.

In the above texts are the answers to your request for description of the Biblical consequences for the goats, until you can make your question more specific.
I do not offer an answer for the nature of the fire, only what Scripture states in that regard: torment.

Yes, the fire of God, which is His passionate love, is a torment to those who come into His presence with their sinful natures craving fulfillment. Imagine Hugh Hefner, that degenerate who lived for fornication. Imagine Him going to be in front of Christ with those passions raging. Not only can He not satiate them, but now for the first time ever, the scales are taken from his eyes and he sees the truth - that he abused women and used them as objects. You have no idea how this is tormenting him, most likely even now, because of the depth of his sinfulness.

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I do offer that the Lake of Fire, to which the goats are assigned, was prepared for the devil and his angels, from which fire I find nothing in Scripture that releases them.

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I do find that in the culmination of God's plan of redemption (Rev 21:1-4) in the new creation
(Rev 21:5), they remain in the Lake of Fire along with the goats (Rev 21:8).

The Scriptures are silent on the end of the devil and the angels, so will not comment either.

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Silent? Not in the above, in Rev 21:1-5 they remain in the fire in the new creation.

Clare73 said:

Precisely. . .and there will be no grace at the Judgment, only the terrifying power of the Judge
(Jn 5:22, 27, 8:26, 12:48; Mt 25:31-33) who judges those who are not in him,
while he saves those who are.

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This is too funny. God changes to save your doctrine.

Shrewd Manager said:

This is too funny. God changes to save your doctrine.

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They will claim God never changes when they seek to misapply some aspect, but then claim grace has ended at the judgment. Say what?

Sheila Davis said:

Not only do you have to confess it with your mouth, you have to believe it in your heart - Romans 10:9-19 and faith without works is dead James 2:14-26. Pick up your cross and follow me.

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What do you make of this?

Romans 4:4-5
Now to the one who works, wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation. 5 However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness.

Navair2 said:

For His children, yes.

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Behold, I am making a few things new...just now and then...when I can...but not you, you or that awful fellow with the arrows in his back in particular!

Is that the Navair2 translation of Rev 21:5?

Navair2 said:

Have you never read Romans 9?

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No I'm still waiting for it to come out on blu-ray.

What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God’s part? By no means! For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” (Rom 9:14-15)

Following the bouncing ball, we find 'For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.' (Rom 11:32).

And of course Romans 14:11 (who could forget it). See where it's headed, the trajectory? The worm does not die, it heads north.

How many Christians proudly assume that the Bible's 'unbelievers' are non-Christians and heretics? God is merely asking us to have a little faith, even a mere sliver of hope, that Jesus just might accomplish his mission to save the world from sin and death. Looks like 'Israel' better watch out for the 'stone of stumbling', hm.

Navair2 said:

Ephesians 1, Ephesians 2, Romans 8:29-30, Romans 9, 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14, Acts 2:39, Acts 2:47, Acts 13:48 and many others.

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You mean:
...making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth. (Eph 1:9-10)

Yep, that's what it is.

For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God (Eph 2:8)

So, just as John the Baptist tells the uppity Jews, God doesn't need you, the purported chosen children:

And do not presume to say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father,’ for I tell you, God is able from these stones to raise up children for Abraham. (Mt 3:9)

As for Romans 8:29-30, don't see anything there to shorten God's arm. Some workers start later than others, others do the graveyard shift.

Ok thanks let's just be grateful for being able to enjoy scripture.

Saint Steven said:

They will claim God never changes when they seek to misapply some aspect, but then claim grace has ended at the judgment. Say what?

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It's the chuztpah that gets me. Supposedly some who claim they are Jews, when proposing cunning loopholes to the Torah, are heard to rejoice, exclaiming 'God has said 'My children have outsmarted me!''. Oy vey, at least they develop diabolically sophisticated schemes. 'It's not evasion, it's just avoidance already, and every shekel accounted for!'

Shrewd Manager said:

This is too funny. God changes to save your doctrine.

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Assertion without Biblical demonstration is without Biblical merit.

Clare73 said:

Assertion without Biblical demonstration is without Biblical merit.

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Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of Jesus.