117th Congress - The Gender Neutral Circus Show

TLK Valentine said:

Assuming you're correct -- what are you going to do about it?

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Such a great bottom-line question.

JackRT said:

I believe that the chaplain was simply making a point about gender equality by making gentle humour with a play on words. This brings up a new question. "Why do so many Christians seem to lack a sense of humour?" Jesus used humour to good effect in his teaching.

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If he wants to make a point about gender equality, that was not that way to do so. He could have spoken about it before or after the prayer. But to make a prayer into "gentle humour" as you say? It negates the prayer and make a "gentle joke" of the prayer.

Let him speak on gender equality in a forum that is intended for speeches. To say "a-men and a-woman" does NOTHING for the progress of gender equality. It just made him look ignorant.

It belied his own ignorance in that "amen" is not an engendered word. He is supposed to be a Christian minister of 37 years. He should know that prayers are not jokes. Gender equality is not a joke. A Christian man praying to a Hindu god is not a joke.

There's making a joke and making a joke at the wrong time.

As a women who is part feminist and 100% Christian - I felt no support in his joke. I felt his joke had no credibility, strength, purpose, nor exaltation of women.

He did absolutely nothing to support gender equality. So that excuse goes down the drain.

It was just silly.

98cwitr said:

If it's secular, then why are they praying? If it's secular, then why does it say "In God We Trust" in stone?

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Great questions. Remove it all. It would benefit the church and our nation - a nation that was founded on religious liberty.

wing2000 said:

a nation that was founded on religious liberty

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and is ultimately just another human experiment along the long road...

All I can think is that Rep. Cleaver is quite happy about his prayer, as it has generated a lot of attention and debate.

SimplyMe said:

All I can think is that Rep. Cleaver is quite happy about his prayer, as it has generated a lot of attention and debate.

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I think his prayer has revealed the disingenuous outrage by some conservative Christians too. A lot of conservative Christians didn't even bat an eyelash when their favorite President paid off the inappropriate content star he slept with when his third wife was at home with their newborn son or when it was revealed that he arrogantly boasted about how he could force himself sexually on women because he's a celebrity. I'm not buying their alleged outrage over that prayer or over any other kind of moral and ethical issues.

Guinan said:

I think his prayer has revealed the disingenuous outrage by some conservative Christians

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I acknowledge you said "some."

With that established, some of us never entered into this thinking he was void of sin and a past that always surfaces as part of politics. Some of us didn't consider him to be our morally righteous savior, but the better alternative.

Some of us don't like it when something (like prayer) done or perceived to be done in the name of Christ panders or seems to pander to nonsense. It has something to do with God's Commandments.

What exactly is a "Christian Seeker"?

GDL said:

I acknowledge you said "some."

With that established, some of us never entered into this thinking he was void of sin and a past that always surfaces as part of politics. Some of us didn't consider him to be our morally righteous savior, but the better alternative.

Some of us don't like it when something (like prayer) done or perceived to be done in the name of Christ panders or seems to pander to nonsense. It has something to do with God's Commandments.

What exactly is a "Christian Seeker"?

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I think that's someone who identifies as a christian but isn't sure which denomination they want to fall into.

Guinan said:

I think his prayer has revealed the disingenuous outrage by some conservative Christians too. A lot of conservative Christians didn't even bat an eyelash when their favorite President paid off the inappropriate content star he slept with when his third wife was at home with their newborn son or when it was revealed that he arrogantly boasted about how he could force himself sexually on women because he's a celebrity. I'm not buying their alleged outrage over that prayer or over any other kind of moral and ethical issues.

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Nor object to Trump clearing Lafayette Park with force and then lifting a Bible in front of a House of Worship.

Nithavela said:

I think that's someone who identifies as a christian but isn't sure which denomination they want to fall into.

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Thanks. Looks like the Christian Seeker agrees.

With tens of thousands of denominations having been purportedly identified, the CS seems to have quite the task at hand. As a suggestion, drop the pursuit and:

NKJ Matthew 6:33 "But seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness...

NKJ Colossians 3:1 If then you were raised with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ is, sitting at the right hand of God.

It's nonsense and I condemn it. But it doesn't seem like such a huge deal compared to many other things going on right now.

disciple Clint said:

simple, it is helpful if not required to have knowledge of something before you critize it or an opinion about it.

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Thats silly. I’m not a professional cricketer yet, like every other Australian, I have strong opinions about the selection of our national team. Most parents are not trained teachers, yet have strong opinions about their child’s learning.
And what makes you think I don’t have good knowledge about religious beliefs?

Meanwhile... in Montana...

Montana state Auditor Troy Downing, a Republican, said he denounced and was unaware beforehand of the remarks that were given during the invocation at his swearing-in ceremony Monday at the Capitol.

Eric Jacobs, a reverend and electrical contractor from Bozeman, delivered the invocation. Downing spokesman Sam Loveridge described Jacobs as an acquaintance of the new state auditor.

The invocation began similarly to most ceremonial invocations in welcoming Downing to office and asking for his service to be blessed. The remarks then shifted to make several controversial statements.

Jacobs referred to the coronavirus pandemic as "false" and meant to induce fear, called for members of the "deep state" to be arrested and prayed that the presidential election be overturned based on unfounded claims of election fraud.

“The corruption in our government is rampant and goes from the workers in the street all the way to the Supreme Court.”

"Show us oh God in Heaven how to expose the enemies' lies and deception and bring their attempt at a coup to take over this nation to an abrupt end and justice being served on all those being deceptive, violent and evil," Jacobs said.

98cwitr said:

If the UK can acknowledge Christ in Parliament, why can't we?
Prayers

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The first Amendment.

essentialsaltes said:

Meanwhile... in Montana...

Montana state Auditor Troy Downing, a Republican, said he denounced and was unaware beforehand of the remarks that were given during the invocation at his swearing-in ceremony Monday at the Capitol.

Eric Jacobs, a reverend and electrical contractor from Bozeman, delivered the invocation. Downing spokesman Sam Loveridge described Jacobs as an acquaintance of the new state auditor.

The invocation began similarly to most ceremonial invocations in welcoming Downing to office and asking for his service to be blessed. The remarks then shifted to make several controversial statements.

Jacobs referred to the coronavirus pandemic as "false" and meant to induce fear, called for members of the "deep state" to be arrested and prayed that the presidential election be overturned based on unfounded claims of election fraud.

“The corruption in our government is rampant and goes from the workers in the street all the way to the Supreme Court.”

"Show us oh God in Heaven how to expose the enemies' lies and deception and bring their attempt at a coup to take over this nation to an abrupt end and justice being served on all those being deceptive, violent and evil," Jacobs said.

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Let's see... COVID is a plot against America, the Deep State is real and evil incarnate, the election should be overturned...

What's "controversial" about these statements? It's required doctrine for Donald's supporters...

Stuff it? Wowei! We got us here an edge lord in the midst. Careful not to cut yourself there on your sharp mind. FYI every religion has a rite of prayer. A template. Something passed down through generations. Maybe you feel that your brand of Buddhism is a everything goes brand. Say what you want, pray how you want, denigrate everything on earth. Maybe you should try reciting the Shahada when you meditate on enlightenment.

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Not necessarily, though it is a common element. Prayer is not required for a religion by necessity, the definitions vary in a sense

My "brand" isn't something I made up, first off, and secondly, I don't pray, so you're barking up the wrong tree based on assumptions you have little basis for

Barking up the wrong tree eh? American, me? How myopic. You see I don't have a problem if the Congress don't want to say a Christian prayer. Have a Satanist there officiating it for a the good you can think of. But don't do a half bake job of trying a Christian prayer and excuse it as some form of inclusiveness stunt.

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You don't know that's why they did it, first off, so let's try easing up on assuming malice, violating Hanlon's razor. But also, you not liking something is not a reason to object to it purely rooted in this preferential privileged attitude that you think only your prayers matter when the whole idea of prayer before a secular government's business is patently absurd, because that's an individual private matter for the most part, as the Founding Fathers generally appear to have agreed with

Did I dictate his speech? Was it censored? Was Mr. Cleaver compelled to follow my instructions? If not I'm free to voice mine as well. Never thought of it that way did you?

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Your criticism is empty if all you have is your objections based on the idea that you get to have that opinion. Maybe...I don't know, offer something more substantive in why you think this is a bad thing or even, *gasp* try to have some humility instead of taking this arrogant attitude where your right to have an opinion also means you don't have to defend it?

When you take this stance that someone is wrong, it doesn't follow to the words you falsely insinuate onto me, but when you leave it vague, you're not doing yourself any favors in the general pedantry where you have a right to free speech, but don't have any responsibilities to actually defend your position held or bring up something substantive about why one should take you seriously.

Everyone has an opinion, but they don't matter equally when some can actually give some meat to it versus a flimsy statement based on sentiment and convictions that can change with the winds of your preferred ideology

GDL said:

With that established, some of us never entered into this thinking he was void of sin and a past that always surfaces as part of politics.

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Why do we always get the “nobody’s perfect” excuse when we’re talking about a man who has shown himself to be unrepentantly, exceptionally immoral?

GDL said:

Some of us didn't consider him to be our morally righteous savior, but the better alternative.

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You can vote for who you think is the better alternative and still criticize them for their immorality. Instead, Trump supporters defend or downplay his immorality. And none of this explains why he was chosen over many far more moral men with basically the same policies in the primary.

Sparagmos said:

Why do we always get the “nobody’s perfect” excuse when we’re talking about a man who has shown himself to be unrepentantly, exceptionally immoral?

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Simple in the context of what I said: Trump or Hilary at the time. We always have the same issue of nobody's perfect, which is probably why we always hear the nobody's perfect rationale.

Sparagmos said:

You can vote for who you think is the better alternative and still criticize them for their immorality. Instead, Trump supporters defend or downplay his immorality. And none of this explains why he was chosen over many far more moral men with basically the same policies in the primary.

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No disagreement with your first sentence.

I don't downplay his or anyone's immorality - mine included. I've read some who simply boil it down to the least serious of the immoralities in their view. Some of the pro-life would be an example that comes to mind.

I mentioned nothing re: the primaries, but I get your point. Personally, I think there's a very large contingency in the US that's sick of the typical politicians and Trump was the aggressive alternative. And, let's face it, the US (including many, many church-goers) likes its entertainment, and politics has become 24/7.

Sparagmos said:

Why do we always get the “nobody’s perfect” excuse when we’re talking about a man who has shown himself to be unrepentantly, exceptionally immoral?
You can vote for who you think is the better alternative and still criticize them for their immorality. Instead, Trump supporters defend or downplay his immorality. And none of this explains why he was chosen over many far more moral men with basically the same policies in the primary.

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The advantage of choosing the golden calf is that when you're done worshiping it, you can melt it down for coinage.

GDL said:

I don't downplay his or anyone's immorality - mine included. I've read some who simply boil it down to the least serious of the immoralities in their view. Some of the pro-life would be an example that comes to mind.

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So long as the people boiling it down remember that in the end, God's not going to care about what they bought with thirty pieces of silver, but what they did to get them in the first place.