Does turning my lights on violate the sabbath?

DamianWarS said:

I'm not speaking of the character of God I am addressing how the sabbath law is incompatible with modern living nor is it designed for it. Because of Christ you have access to his rest and he is still good, regardless how you practice the sabbath. His character is intact, you still get rest, but the sabbath law can't be kept by our own foolish means (like turning off the lights).

Click to expand...

So since I answered your question in great detail, even though you can't agree, then please answer a question posed to you.

When did the Modern world progress to the point where God's Sabbath became incompatible?

The first central power plant in the U.S., began producing electricity on September 4th, 1882. It was located at 255 – 257 Pearl Street in Manhattan. It initially served 85 customers, providing electricity to 400 lamps.

So is it your religious philosophy that at first only these 85 people couldn't possibly honor God in His Sabbath? But the rest of the US could?

So then, was God's Sabbath still Holy until 1882, then slowly became unholy as the rest of the country became modernized and out grew the Lord's Sabbath?

What year was it that God's Holy Sabbath no longer was made for man?

I look forward to your response.

DamianWarS said:

indeed, doing good on the sabbath is not breaking the sabbath, so then we can call this essential, it also begs the question of why not just do good?. With that aside, what about non-essential use of manpower systems running during the Sabbath? everyone likes to throw the exceptions but fail to address the non-essential use. the responses here seem to be fighting the idea of this rather than recognizing the failure that it brings.

Click to expand...

Just curious your reasons for these questions. Are you asking because you want to learn about how to keep the Sabbath or are you asking because you are trying to make a point that you can't keep Sabbath so therefore why try? If its the latter, than nothing anyone says will change your mind. Some posters have made some excellent points, but you seem to dismiss it without giving it much thought. Just seems like this discussion may be fruitless if your motive it to try to prove you can't keep Sabbath, despite it being kept by many for generations because God asked.

Have you ever thought about it this way, we are all being tested now. When we are in Heaven there will be no more sin. The Sabbath is something special to God, He implemented it at creation Genesis 2:3 and He wrote it with His own finger and asked us to not forget. Jesus kept the Sabbath and we are told to follow Him as our example. If you don't even try to keep His Sabbath Holy on this earth- what makes you think you will enjoy Heaven because it will be kept by all.

Isaiah 66:23
And it shall come to pass
That from one New Moon to another,
And from one Sabbath to another,
All flesh shall come to worship before Me,” says the Lord.

Lucifer didn't want to obey either and look what happened. Maybe something to pray about. God bless.

DamianWarS said:

indeed, doing good on the sabbath is not breaking the sabbath, so then we can call this essential, it also begs the question of why not just do good?. With that aside, what about non-essential use of manpower systems running during the Sabbath? everyone likes to throw the exceptions but fail to address the non-essential use. the responses here seem to be fighting the idea of this rather than recognizing the failure that it brings.

Click to expand...

It only brings failure to the religious philosophies of religious men.

There was no Law of God prohibiting Jesus and His Disciples from walking through a cornfield picking blackberries or an ear of corn to munch on.

It was against the sabbath of the Pharisees, but never against the Sabbath of God.

In like manner, living in a time in which all homes are hooked up the power grid is not against the Sabbath of God. It is against your sabbath, but not God's.

If a man was "Seeking the Kingdom of God and HIS Righteousness" IN FAITH, as Jesus instructs, and did a study, blocking out all the "other voices" in the garden and listening to God's Word only, they would find the true purpose for His Sabbath Commandment that HE SAID HE created for man.

Sadly, as Prophesied, most reject and pollute His Sabbaths, and are only interested in scriptures which can be used to promote their religious philosophy, and insure their entrance into eternal life.

But as long as we are alive, it's not to late to repent and turn to the Christ of the Bible. As it is written;

Heb. 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.

13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.

14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;

15 While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation.

16 For some, when they had heard, did provoke: howbeit not all that came out of Egypt by Moses. (Caleb, Joshua)

17 But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness?

18 And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not? 19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.

Believe what you might ask? Jesus said "Every Word which proceeds from the mouth of God".

Is. 58:13 If thou turn away thy foot from the sabbath, from doing thy pleasure on my holy day; and call the sabbath a delight, the holy of the LORD, honourable; and shalt honour him, not doing thine own ways, nor finding thine own pleasure, nor speaking thine own words:

14 Then shalt thou delight thyself in the LORD; and I will cause thee to ride upon the high places of the earth, and feed thee with the heritage of Jacob thy father: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it.

Modern religious philosophy that these Word's have become "incompatible" in modern times, is a popular religious doctrine in the land I was born into. And maybe you are right, after all It's just a Book. Maybe God didn't know I would be born into a time when homes are hooked up to a power grid.

But I'm clinging to Him anyway.

DamianWarS said:

I recognize our modern society has abandoned values of the sabbath in favour of technology and convenience. they have created manpowered systems that work over the sabbath that most simply accept and treat as any other day.

Click to expand...

Societies have always abandoned the values of the Christ's Sabbaths in favor of technology and convenience. What does it mean to fast from the world on this day? For one, it means 52 days a year in which you don't make any money. And the Society I was born into pays time and a half for working on God's Holy Sabbath much of the time. That would be pretty "inconvenient" wouldn't it?

But what are the values of God's Sabbaths? Why is it so important to HIM? What is it about this One Commandment that most religious men Hate so much they will do almost anything to avoid it, pollute it, reject it?

Have you ever asked yourself why the Jews, Universal Christian church, Atheists, Secularists, ALL stand together in perfect union against this ONE Commandment JESUS singled out as a Commandment made specifically for men?

There are some groups that have taken more extreme stances and have rejected the advancements and choose to live in their own off the gird communities. The church has not responded or has not responded enough and cultural creep has overpowered the more traditional values that we no longer even question these things.

Click to expand...

So in your religious philosophy, what was the reason why Israel Polluted God's Holy Sabbaths? Did the "Church" not respond enough in their time as well?

Jer. 6:16 Thus saith the LORD, (Word of God which became Flesh) Stand ye in the ways, and see, and ask for the old paths, where is the good way, and walk therein, and ye shall find rest for your souls. But they said, We will not walk therein.

17 Also I set watchmen over you, saying, Hearken to the sound of the trumpet. But they said, We will not hearken.

How is it any different today? The Christ has delivered the Oracles of God into every home in America, every religious hand in this land, even your hands, Jesus has delivered the Oracles of God into. How can you say the Christ's Church has not responded?

those initial 85 people that first received power would be indeed in violation of sabbath law if they use the electricity during the sabbath and it was a manpowered system. I really can't answer that but those would be the conditions. And previous to electricity the same would apply to any person that engages in a manpowered system over the sabbath. it's not about electricity itself is not keeping sabbath law (which is silly) it's about causing other people the sabbath to work to supply that power.

Click to expand...

So then, in your religious philosophy, if I disconnected power from my house on the Sabbath, the power grid would stop producing power, and those other people would go home and Honor God in His Sabbath. In other Word's, it is those who have submitted themselves to God and His Instruction, as best they can in the Lands they were born into, that are the reason why this world pollutes and rejects God's Sabbaths.

So then, if we would only live in darkness and cold on the Sabbath in these modern times, the whole country would stop polluting and rejecting God's Sabbaths.

I don't find that message anywhere in the Holy Scriptures. but i do find this message.

Matt. 24:4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. 5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I (Jesus) am Christ; and shall deceive many.

So these deceivers, do you believe Jesus is telling me that they are tricking men into honoring and obeying the God of the Bible as those examples of Faithful men did? Or is Jesus warning me about religious men who come in HIS Name, who are they tricking men to reject and omit God's instructions?

Israel was a closed community (with some exceptions) and so it was important to declare that Sabbath was to be follow not just by individuals but everyone under the household including animals and also foreigners "in your gates". This was an opportunity for those foreigners to experience God's Sabbath which is something outside the gates they would not experience. This the value to extended it to foreigners is to ensure foreigners were recipients as well to the fruits of the Sabbath.

Click to expand...

Again, this is your religious philosophy. You provide no Word's of God, only the imaginations of your own mind. When I ask God about His Sabbaths and foreigners, here is what HE says.

Is. 56:6 Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to the LORD, to serve him, and to love the name of the LORD, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant;

7 Even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted upon mine altar; for mine house shall be called an house of prayer for all people.

The reason why I replied to your post in the first place is because your "voice" and the Word's of God contradict each other. We have been warned about this "other voice" from the very beginning of the Gospel of Christ. I am hoping you might consider the source of much of your religious philosophy, and consider that maybe God does know best. Maybe HE knew I would be born into a time where homes are hooked up to an electric grid on the day Ge created His Holy Sabbath. Maybe HIS definition and explanation of HIS Sabbath is TRUTH, while yours is just another wind of doctrine taken from the hundreds of "ministers of righteousness" Paul and the Bible warns about over and over and over.

Just a thought.

Today, Israel is all believers and it is not a closed community. we are scattered in all lands across all systems and cultures and invite all to participate. We don't have gates and foreigners are no longer within them (we are in their gates) but this doesn't mean we forget about them. This is partly why the Sabbath law is no longer compatible with modern systems. We cannot simply translate what a "foreigner" looks like and if they are in our gates or not. There are no gates and the law very clearly is written within the context of communities that are centred around this law. But yet the foreigners around us still need God's sabbath.

Click to expand...

Religious men of the world have always taught God's Sabbath was not compatible with their religious systems. This is simply Biblical Truth. Ignoring this Truth doesn't make it void.

This is the point of the Sabbath as God's rest is God's salvation. The good we are to do is not pulling sheep out of pits but instead rescuing fallen souls by showing God's glory in all opportunities. If this is done it doesn't matter if your lights are on or off, or if you are at the office or reheating your meal you made yesterday. God's glory can be shown and we can spread his rest. If this is good this keeps the Sabbath and is better than counting what systems work and what systems don't work.

forget about the systems and just do good.

Click to expand...

From my perspective this gospel is the same as the other voice in the garden that convinced Eve God's Commandment wasn't compatible with her life. Don't rely on God to define what is "Good" and what is not, free yourself from the bounds of God's Definition, and define "good" from the imaginations of your own mind.

Don't listen to the Word's of God, they are not compatible in modern society.

Yours is a popular religious philosophy, but is nothing new. It's been around since the very beginning.

We will not come to an agreement here it seems. I am not willing to "omit" God's Word's just to belong to a popular religious franchise, and you are not willing to accept Every Word of God as Truth for HIS new Covenant Church.

Eph. 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

I believe God is the Creator and definer of that which is Good. And I believe the Holy Scriptures are where we find His Definitions.

As the Word's of the Christ Himself tells me.

Luke 16:30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.

31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

ewq1938 said:

Well ask yourself if Jews in the OT had any light sources other than the sun on a Sabbath? I think it was dark at night on a Sabbath because no fire was allowed.

Click to expand...

Not true. You can not KINDLE a flame on Shabbat. You may light a lamp BEFORE Shabbat and if it has enough oil, it will burn all night. You may not create on Shabbat...

DamianWarS said:

Indeed

Ex 35:3
Do not light a fire in any of your dwellings on the Sabbath day.

Building a fire takes work so I get why it was restricted for Israelites. Fires were used for cooking, and a light and heat source (and it gets cold in Israel so the last one would be difficult in cold seasons) candels were probably used for light as well and I don't think they were banned during sabbath, so I don't think they were in the dark.

Today we don't make the power, the power is made somewhere else and sent to us. We're not doing the work but we are causing others to work. It's like if the Israelites got someone from the outside to bring them cut up wood and build them fires. It violates the same commandment. Use candels instead and leave the lights off.

Click to expand...

Does a bulb kindle or produce a fire? Starting a car does...

DamianWarS said:

My father used to work shift work at a power plan (he still does but technically he's retired and it's no longer shift work). I can assure you he was doing more than eating, walking and pushing buttons on the sabbath (he might be doing that now). He was there because there was a demand for him to be there because people were using power that they could live without.

The sabbath law is not just around the individual it's also about those around us and we should not be causing them to do work so we don't have to. If we do, we are in violation of sabbath law.

Click to expand...

Does the electricity he helps produce save lives? Running machines in a hospital on Shabbat? To do good on Shabbat is allowed! Many police, doctors, nurses etc work on Shabbat in Israel...

Pavel Mosko said:

3) I will also add this in closing before I forget.

Mark 7:19
New International Version

19 For it doesn’t go into their heart but into their stomach, and then out of the body.” (In saying this, Jesus declared all foods clean.)

This parenthetic/scribal remark is further evidence that the early church did not agree that Law was binding on gentiles etc. (Very interesting when paired with the metaphorical vision of Peter prior to meeting Cornelius and cited in the Acts 15 Jerusalem counsel).

Click to expand...

When Yeshua said that, He was responding to their criticism of eating with unwashed hands, not allowing non-kosher food to be eaten. Neither verse 19 or Peter's vision (which was about gentiles and not food) can be used to justify Jews being allowed in eating non-kosher food...

DamianWarS said:

I'm speaking about non-essential use of electricity. It's a poor argument to say that because a hospital may use power that means I may use it for non-essential reasons.

Click to expand...

Is this about electricity or people working on Shabbat?

DamianWarS said:

That speaks to the law of not being able to light a fire on the Sabbath which is not my point. My point is that by turning on a light it feeds a manpowered demand to keep people working on the sabbath which is counter-sabbath as a value.

Click to expand...

That is their choice. The electricity is there, it does not produce a flame and you have already paid for it previously...

DamianWarS said:

So God blesses you with power by others dishonring the sabbath? You refuse one but accept the other? Which one should I believe? If you don't like aborted babies then replace it with a lying machine that generates power from lies, the point still remains if sabbath law is a moral sin then don't refuse one moral sin but turn a blind eye to another. Of course you could try and make your own electricity on the Sabbath and see how much non-essential work it takes.

The point is about non-essetial use of power not essential use so your hospital analogy doesn't fit. You are no more bound to live in cold darkness than an ancient Hebrew was.

I'm not speaking of the character of God I am addressing how the sabbath law is incompatible with modern living nor is it designed for it. Because of Christ you have access to his rest and he is still good, regardless how you practice the sabbath. His character is intact, you still get rest, but the sabbath law can't be kept by our own foolish means (like turning off the lights).

Agreed, nor am I rejecting this. I'm stating the letter of the law is incompatible with modern living.

I am not bound to the letter of the law I am bound to Christ, therefore, I place my faith in Him and His words.

Click to expand...

Mail is delivered on the Sabbath too...

Studyman said:

Ex. 20:8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.

9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:

10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:

11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

What the Pharisees did was create their own sabbath, then judge others according to their own standards. Their sabbath wasn't God's Sabbath that Jesus walked in. It was their own creation.

In like fashion, you have also created your own sabbath, and are making judgments based on your own standards.

Did I dig the trench from the power pole to the house on God's Sabbath? No!! I prepared for God's Sabbath by doing all this work during the week. Did I hire a man to dig the trench, hook up my house to power on God's Holy Sabbath? No! I prepared all this during the week. The power is there, did I generate it? If I sit in freezing darkness so that I can meet your standards regarding the Sabbath and work, is the Power still there? Who gave me this Power? Who placed me in a world with 24/7 electricity?

How does it honor God to sit in darkness and freezing cold one day a week when HE has blessed me with Power right outside my house, that HE also blessed me with? How do I Honor God by making my children, HE Gave me, sit in darkness and freezing cold for 24 hours? Is that what God created HIS Sabbath for?

You might do well to actually study the Scriptures before making your judgments about God's Laws.

Is. 58:5 Is it such a fast that I have chosen? a day for a man to afflict his soul? is it to bow down his head as a bulrush, and to { sit in darkness and freezing cold}? wilt thou call this a fast, and an acceptable day to the LORD?

6 Is not this the fast that I have chosen? to loose the bands of wickedness, to undo the heavy burdens, and to let the oppressed go free, and that ye break every yoke?

7 Is it not to deal thy bread to the hungry, and that thou bring the poor that are cast out to thy house? when thou seest the naked, that thou cover him; and that thou hide not thyself from thine own flesh?

You would do well to think about these Word's before you condemn others regarding God's Holy Sabbath.

Do I cook my food on God's Sabbath? NO! I prepare food during the week so I don't do "Servile work", on the Sabbath. Did I hire a man and pay him to generate power? So then, where is my transgression of God's Sabbaths? In your religious philosophy, that God created Laws to make me sit in a freezing house with no light, to honor God on HIS Sabbath? Is this what you think of the God of Abraham?

I may be transgressing your sabbath or the mainstream preachers of Jesus time's sabbaths. But not God's sabbath.

Did the righteous men cut wood, stack it, and haul it into their homes on the Sabbath in Moses time? NO! They prepared during the week. Did they keep their fire to heat their home burning on the Sabbath? Sure. They had prepared ahead of time, so now all they need to do is throw a log they had already cut, already brought into their house, on a fire already built, to keep their home warm as they eat bread they had already prepared, in honor of God's Holy Sabbath.

Your questions expose an incredible lack of understanding about God's Sabbath and God's Character overall .



I can't speak for others, only for myself. I don't accept your sabbath because you are not the Christ, your sabbath is not His. You have made it clear you have no respect for this Christ's Sabbath that HE created for you. You certainly don't know anything about it. So just as Jesus didn't "Accept" the condemnation of the mainstream preachers of HIS Time which also accused HIM of breaking God's Sabbath, which HE didn't. So I also don't "Accept" your condemnation of breaking HIS Sabbath, that I am not breaking by typing on this computer, with the lights on and the fire going to keep my family warm.



No one can keep your sabbath maybe. But Faithful men have been keeping God's Sabbath since Abel and Abraham.

Gen. 6:8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.

9 These are the generations of Noah: Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God.

Gen. 26:4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; 5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

Num. 14:24 But my servant Caleb, because he had another spirit with him, and hath followed me fully, him will I bring into the land whereinto he went; and his seed shall possess it.

1 Kings 9:4 And if thou wilt walk before me, as David thy father walked, in integrity of heart, and in uprightness, to do according to all that I have commanded thee, and wilt keep my statutes and my judgments:

Luke 1:5T here was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth.

6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.

Rev. 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

So your religious philosophy: "Because it would mean no one keeps the sabbath (including the Sabbath keepers) because it is not keepable according to the letter of the law.", is just that, your religious philosophy, not the Christ of the Bible's. You are attempting to "bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but you will not move them with one of your fingers".

You are free to reject God's Sabbath. It's something you must be persuaded of in your own mind.

But you are not just rejected the Christ's Sabbaths, you are promoting falsehoods about them. Telling folks things about God and His Sabbath that are untrue.

This is why I respond to your posts. To share what God actually says to battle against all the winds of doctrines bandied about in the religions of the land I was born into. Religious philosophies God warned against over and over and over and over.

I hope you might reconsider your philosophy, given the Scriptures I have posted.

Click to expand...

This

DamianWarS said:

then don't get your mail on the sabbath and don't send it on the sabbath. if you had an animal turning a mill in your basement to produce electricity for your home this would undeniably be against the sabbath yet for some reason when you can't see it or you don't know the people involved it doesn't matter. it takes a lot of people to operate a power station and they do not run on essential staff only during the Sabbath, the moment we participate in non-essential use of these services (even the mail) we are a part of a demand that feeds these systems and the workforce behind them. there is a hamster wheel attached to the end of the wire and the more you use it the more hamsters are needed.

Click to expand...

I don't, nor do I buy or sell or drive. However, in the case of the animal, it would not be its choice and you have control of it in your basement.