Evangelism and God’s Omniscience

Bible Highlighter said:

Paul is speaking of the corporate elect body of believers (cf. vs. 33). This is clear through Paul’s use of the plural throughout.

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Not that I disagree that Paul is speaking corporately, but your logic doesn't make the point. Plural only means that he is talking to more than one person, and that what he is saying applies to more than one person. Further, even if Paul IS in fact speaking only corporately, it does not mean that God is NOT particular in his election. The Bride of Christ, the Dwelling Place of God, is not a haphazard chance assembling of random raw materials.

Mark Quayle said:

After how many responses to the contrary of your strawman do you insist upon it yet? Calvinism does not teach that no amount of preaching matters.

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It is the logical conclusion if salvation is by an Election of God, and not by preaching the gospel. So while Calvinists may stress the importance or necessity of preaching, it is a contradictory belief system because salvation does not come by preaching the gospel, but by Election.

Yet, 2 Corinthians 4:4 says,
“In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.”

This is saying salvation is coming by the gospel. For the devil blinds the minds of men (and not God) who believes not, in fear that the light of the gospel should shine upon them so that they may be saved. Why would the devil continue to blind others if God is the One who elects some to salvation and elects others to reprobation? The devil would not even bother to blind people if they were totally depraved and unable to come to God.

You said:

That is only an extrapolation by those who do not understand Calvinism, those who find it repugnant to their notion of free will. You may as well say that Calvinism teaches everyone to lie down and sleep the rest of their lives, since nothing anyone does or thinks or cares about means anything to God.

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There are two different groups of Calvinism. Some Calvinists believe you must live a holy life in order to be one of the Elect. I have not really run into any of these kinds of believers via by online chat or forum, but I have heard them make such claims on their websites. Many other Calvinists have basically told me that mortal sin does not separate a believer from God. So a Christian's salvation is not in jeopardy if they lie, look at inappropriate content, hate others, steal, and or swear, etc. This means that any holy actions are not really all that important. So this kind of belief can potentially lead one to just acknowledge the Savior and just go back to live their old sinful life as if they never knew the Lord.

In fact, Jesus says, “Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.” (Matthew 7:21).

You said:

But just for an easy logic, that Calvinism also agrees with, God uses means to accomplish his ends, both in softening and hardening hearts, if for no other immediate purpose. That much, I hope, you can agree with.

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I do believe God can open hearts, but this does not mean that the person did not have a free will choice beforehand. This means that God is giving them an illumination of His truth so as to properly accept the gospel of their own free will or not. As for God hardening hearts: This is only after a person has repeatedly chosen of their own free will to ignore the truth.

“And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.” (2 Thessalonians 2:10).

So those who perish are perishing because THEY received not the love of the truth that they MIGHT be saved. There is no MIGHT be saved in Calvinism. But that is what 2 Thessalonians 2:10 is saying. It talks about the possibility that they MIGHT be saved. It says that THEY received not the love of the truth, and it does not say it was God who elected them to reprobation.

Mark Quayle said:

Not that I disagree that Paul is speaking corporately, but your logic doesn't make the point. Plural only means that he is talking to more than one person, and that what he is saying applies to more than one person. Further, even if Paul IS in fact speaking only corporately, it does not mean that God is NOT particular in his election. The Bride of Christ, the Dwelling Place of God, is not a haphazard chance assembling of random raw materials.

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Conditions have to be met in order to be a part of the corporate body.
Not all believers are going to continue in those conditions. Nowhere is Paul teaching that all individual believers throughout history who were once justified at one point in time will be glorified.

How so?

Well, the Bible also teaches that believers can fall away from the faith.

Here are several lists of verses that makes it absolutely clear that believers can fall away from the faith:

Here is a General List of Verses on How Believers Can Fall Away:


Now, do not misunderstand me, believers cannot lose their salvation (like they would a pair of car keys), but they can forfeit their salvation (i.e. they can willingly throw it away by rebelling against God). In fact,

Here is a list of believers who have forfeited their salvation:


And here is a list of potential fallen believers:


Even the apostle Paul admits that believers can fall away.

1. We can fall from grace (Galatians 5:4).
2. We can be moved away from the hope (Colossians 1:23).
3. We can be a castaway (1 Corinthians 9:27).
4. We can be cut off just like the Jews if we do not continue in God’s goodness (Romans 11:20-22).
5. We can sow to the flesh and reap corruption instead of sowing to the Spirit which reaps everlasting life. (Galatians 6:8).
6. We can deny God by a lack of good works (Titus 1:16).
7. We can shipwreck our faith (1 Timothy 1:19).
8. We can deny the faith and be worse than an infidel if we do not provide for our own household (1 Timothy 5:8).
9. We can err from the faith and pierce ourselves thru with many sorrows if we love and covet after money (1 Timothy 6:10).
10. Hymnenaeus and Philetus have overthrown the faith of some (2 Timothy 2:18).

For Jesus is the Light and we are to shine the Light of Christ within our lives. For there are those who think they can serve Jesus and also live for oneself, sin, and evil; But this is wrong, though. "For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God" (John 3:20-21).

The ending statement made in the OP suggests Calvinism.
For it states, I quote: “They will never believe regardless of how much preaching we do.”

This is why others have taken this as a reference to Calvinism and not just myself alone.

Silly Uncle Wayne said:

Not at all. ALL of the theologies exist else we wouldn't be talking about them. The issue is whether they are right or not.

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As you already pointed out this thread starts with questions about God commanding/ordaining evil since He knows the future (as some have supposed for the Calvinist POV) - even so the Arminian counter to that is very possible - even without open Theism.

Bible Highlighter said:

It is the logical conclusion if salvation is by an Election of God, and not by preaching the gospel. So while Calvinists may stress the importance or necessity of preaching, it is a contradictory belief system because salvation does not come by preaching the gospel, but by Election.

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See, there you go again! What Calvinist says, "salvation is by an Election of God and not by preaching the gospel?" Calvinism agrees, even claims, and happily witnesses to the fact that salvation is by the preaching of the Gospel. That by no means contradicts Election.

Bible Highlighter said:

Why would the devil continue to blind others if God is the One who elects some to salvation and elects others to reprobation? The devil would not even bother to blind people if they were totally depraved and unable to come to God.

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You seem to have little understanding of the nature of the devil and sin and the slaves to sin. It is all one lot, ALL of whom are responsible for their sin, but locked into it, by their very will. They CANNOT repent without God enabling them. They are unequal to the task. Neither their heart nor their intellect understands, nor do they have any integrity in themselves to stick by such a decision were it even possible.

And it is only by the grace of God that their descent into depravity is restrained at all.

Bible Highlighter said:

There are two different groups of Calvinism. Some Calvinists believe you must live a holy life in order to be one of the Elect. I have not really run into too many of these kinds of believers, but I have heard them make such claims on their websites. Many other Calvinists have basically told me that mortal sin does not separate a believer from God. So a Christian's salvation is not in jeopardy if they lie, look at inappropriate content, hate others, steal, and or swear, etc. This means that any holy actions are not really all that important. So this kind of belief can potentially lead one to just acknowledge the Savior and just go back to live their old sinful life as if they never knew the Lord. But not everyone who says unto me, Lord, Lord will enter the kingdom of Heaven.

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I see no relation of your two kinds to the doctrines of Calvinism, unless the one who says, and I quote you --not them-- "you must live a holy life in order to be one of the Elect." they do not mean that living a holy life saves them or keeps them, but that it identifies them. I can't speak to the other category you claim: Most Calvinists ignore the notion of mortal sin, and either claim no conclusions about "there is a sin unto death" and other places that sound vaguely familiar, or that it is like the verse saying that "he will be saved, yet as through fire". Most of us believe that any sin that God always punishes and does not substitute with the punishment against Christ is not so by category of sin, but by category of election. If I persist in some sin, there may be a time that God will allow it to, or cause it to, or otherwise cause, my death, and if I am of the Elect, I will indeed go to Heaven, and if I am not of the Elect, I will not, and never was saved.

Your sentence: "So a Christian's salvation is not in jeopardy if they lie, look at inappropriate content, hate others, steal, and or swear, etc." does not represent Calvinism at all. At the best, the statement would substitute the word, "Elect", for "Christian", but even then it represents OSAS, not Calvinism. It is a contradiction of Scripture to say that a liar, for example, will see the Kingdom of God, every bit as much as to say a homosexual will. And Calvinism is, if nothing else, willing to accept Scripture over personal notions.

While I can't speak for all Calvinists, I can say that those who you seem to know, either disagree with your assessment of their beliefs, or they themselves are not representative of Calvinism. It really is that simple. Yet even in your statement there, you make what you think is a logical extrapolation or deduction when you say, "this means" rather than "they believe", "so", in a next sentence is your conclusion --not necessarily their belief.

Bible Highlighter said:

So those who perish are perishing because THEY received not the love of the truth that they MIGHT be saved. There is no MIGHT be saved in Calvinism. BUt that is what 2 Thessalonians 2:10 is saying. It talks about the possibility that they MIGHT be saved. It says that THEY received not the love of the truth, and it does not say it was God who elected them to reprobation.

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The use of the word, "Might", is not talking about chances or even probability, but opportunity. Verse 10 shows the reprobate behaving true to form. They WILL not receive, and they have no desire for, the love of the truth. You might take a good look at just how that love of the truth is something "received", though.

Only God has license to know. We don't and will be judged accordingly on how we evangelized the world.

Bible Highlighter said:

Conditions have to be met in order to be a part of the corporate body.
Not all believers are going to continue in those conditions. Nowhere is Paul teaching that all individual believers throughout history who were once justified at one point in time will be glorified.

How so?

Well, the Bible also teaches that believers can fall away from the faith.

Here are several lists of verses that makes it absolutely clear that believers can fall away from the faith:

Here is a General List of Verses on How Believers Can Fall Away:

1 Samuel 16:14
1 Samuel 31:4
Ezekiel 18:24
Hebrews 3:12-14
Hebrews 4:11
Hebrews 6:4-9
Hebrews 10:26-30
Hebrews 12:15
1 Timothy 1:18-20
1 Timothy 4:1-7
Galatians 3:1-5
2 Peter 2:20-22
2 Peter 3:17
Matthew 13:18-23
1 Corinthians 10:12
2 Thessalonians 2:3​

Now, do not misunderstand me, believers cannot lose their salvation (like they would a pair of car keys), but they can forfeit their salvation (i.e. they can willingly throw it away by rebelling against God). In fact,

Here is a list of believers who have forfeited their salvation:

Saul (1 Samuel 16:14) (1 Samuel 31:4)
Demas (2 Timothy 4:10)
The Prodigal Son (Luke 15:11-32)
Judas Iscariot (Psalm 41:9) (Luke 6:16) (Acts 1:25)
Hymenaeus and Philetus (2 Timothy 2:17-18)
Unnamed Christians destroyed by false teaching (2 Timothy 2:17-18)
Many Unnamed Disciples (John 6:66)
Some Younger Christian Widows (1 Timothy 5:14-15)
Some Christians Eager For Money (1 Timothy 6:8-10)
Ananias and Sapphira (Acts of the Apostles 5:1-11)​

And here is a list of potential fallen believers:

The Servant Who is Not Looking For Him (Luke 12:45-46)
Recent Convert Who is a Potential Spiritual Leader (1 Timothy 3:6)
The Unforgiving in Heart (Matthew 6:14-15)
Luke Warm Unrepentant Believer (Revelation 3:14-22)
Fruitless Christians (John 15:1-10) (Matthew 25:14-30)
Widows That Live in Pleasure (1 Timothy 5:5-6)
Believers Whose Seed Fell Upon the Rocks (Luke 8:13)
Believers Whose Seed Was Choked by Thorns (Matthew 13:22)
Gentile Believer Who Did Not Have on a Wedding Garment (Matthew 22:1-14) (Revelation 19:7-8)
The Potential Fellow Believer Who Erred From the Truth & Was Converted Back
(James 5:19-20)​

Even the apostle Paul admits that believers can fall away.

1. We can fall from grace (Galatians 5:4).
2. We can be moved away from the hope (Colossians 1:23).
3. We can be a castaway (1 Corinthians 9:27).
4. We can be cut off just like the Jews if we do not continue in God’s goodness (Romans 11:20-22).
5. We can sow to the flesh and reap corruption instead of sowing to the Spirit which reaps everlasting life. (Galatians 6:8).
6. We can deny God by a lack of good works (Titus 1:16).
7. We can shipwreck our faith (1 Timothy 1:19).
8. We can deny the faith and be worse than an infidel if we do not provide for our own household (1 Timothy 5:8).
9. We can err from the faith and pierce ourselves thru with many sorrows if we love and covet after money (1 Timothy 6:10).
10. Hymnenaeus and Philetus have overthrown the faith of some (2 Timothy 2:18).

For Jesus is the Light and we are to shine the Light of Christ within our lives. For there are those who think they can serve Jesus and also live for oneself, sin, and evil; But this is wrong, though. "For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God" (John 3:20-21).

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You seem to have sloughed meanings. You want to claim Calvinism, or at least OSAS, is wrong by pointing out that believers can lose their salvation. If, in fact, a 'believer' "loses his salvation", was he ever saved? What proves salvation, but the end result? The verse you use answers your objections: "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall. enter into the kingdom of heaven"; but note now, it says, "but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven". It does noticeably NOT say, "but he that doeth his own good will."

You keep referring to believers, but I am talking about the Elect. They will not lose their salvation. But here comes the part you seem to not understand: TULIP's "Perseverance of the Saints" HOW does the elect 'keep' his salvation? By obedience, which is accomplished through the power of God --by the very Spirit of God within them. The Elect will not ultimately fall away. It is the Holy Spirit in the regenerated person that drives them --HE is the source of their faith, the integrity of their decision for Christ, the intellect behind any true understanding of the gospel, and the changer of the heart, indeed the controller of the heart. Does the person 'have anything to do with it"? Of course he has everything to do with it. His heart's desire is holiness and closeness to God, but it is not by his power that it is accomplished, nor even by his own integrity that he wishes it. God himself does it in him.

The inhabiting of the Holy Spirit within this person, this dwelling place, is what we were made for. We are not even real, or complete, persons, until that is done. And even that is not fulfilled until the end, when we see him as he is. You would have a person to be a separately able entity to be in and of himself something of some account that God does not intrude on their dignity or something. "Apart from me you can do nothing."

It is not, in the end attributable to the steadfast that he is steadfast. God will keep him, because God will not lose even one of those he has chosen to be a member of the Bride of Christ. And this is how it is done --not by mere categorization and automatic fact, but by agonizingly hard work and many tears, convicting of sin by the Spirit, consistent repentance, consistent obedience. Calvinism is all about God in us. And in the end it is God who gives us rest and healing and comfort, proclaiming that our hard toil and warfare is over.

You apparently haven't read John Owen's "Mortification of Sin" if you think Calvinism teaches that the Elect need not work in his own Salvation and Sanctification. It only lays all the credit at God's feet.

Hammster said:

So how would you answer the questions?

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The more we evangelize the more will be saved in the end. Even God knows how many there will be, doesn't change that fact.

zoidar said:

The more we evangelize the more will be saved in the end. Even God knows how many there will be, doesn't change that fact.

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Good. So you agree that God uses means to accomplish his ends, no?

Hammster said:

So how would you answer the questions?

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Mark Quayle said:

Good. So you agree that God uses means to accomplish his ends, no?

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Some hold the idea that a person isn't of the elect and therefore couldn't be saved. I'd say a person is not of the elect because of himself, other people and of us Christians. We as Christians have the responsibility to put our light in the stand and not under the basket, so people can be saved.

zoidar said:

Some hold the idea that a person isn't of the elect and therefore couldn't be saved. I'd say a person is not of the elect because of himself, other people and of us Christians. We as Christians have the responsibility to put our light in the stand and not under the basket, so people can be saved.

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Just a little bit ago, I tried to explain to one poster that Calvinism doesn't hold that the Elect are somehow automatically or by category saved, and kept, but that their life is replete with the work of God in them. Of themselves they are nothing. The old Puritans I have read talk quite a bit more about the suffering of the flesh, the warfare against sin, the agony, the tears, the frustration, and most of all the constant WORK of the Spirit of God in us, the conviction, the integrity of our repentance and obedience, all of it the work of God. God uses means. The regenerated are in Christ --not somebody in and of ourselves.

"The Mortification of Sin" (John Owen) is huge, I can't read much without being reduced to tears and prayer. One quote: "Be killing sin or it be killing you." The fact that God will keep the Elect does not by any means imply they need not keep themselves, but that it is done by the power of God --the Holy Spirit within.

Mark Quayle said:

See, there you go again! What Calvinist says, "salvation is by an Election of God and not by preaching the gospel?" Calvinism agrees, even claims, and happily witnesses to the fact that salvation is by the preaching of the Gospel. That by no means contradicts Election.

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No sir. Calvinism does not teach that one is saved by the gospel initially but they teach that one is saved initially by Election.

You said:

You seem to have little understanding of the nature of the devil and sin and the slaves to sin. It is all one lot, ALL of whom are responsible for their sin, but locked into it, by their very will. They CANNOT repent without God enabling them. They are unequal to the task. Neither their heart nor their intellect understands, nor do they have any integrity in themselves to stick by such a decision were it even possible.

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Okay. You ignored the point about the devil blinding people. It makes no sense for the devil to blind men if man is already depraved and blind and dead and incapable of coming to God. The devil's efforts in blinding men would then be wasted if Calvinism was true.

You said:

I see no relation of your two kinds to the doctrines of Calvinism, unless the one who says, and I quote you --not them-- "you must live a holy life in order to be one of the Elect." they do not mean that living a holy life saves them or keeps them, but that it identifies them.

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Here is what is written on one Calvinist website:

Perseverance of the Saints:

Some object to this doctrine because it supposedly makes men "carnally secure" in their salvation. That is, if I know nothing can make me go to hell once God has saved me, I will "live like the devil." There have been some who have used this beautiful truth as an excuse to live like the devil. But they are not Christians. Nor do they understand this truth. Because this truth also implies "PERSEVERANCE OF THE SAINTS." Those who never fall away are saints. They are holy. And they are given power to live holy lives. They "continue in well-doing." Anyone who says he can "live like the devil" has not experienced the saving power of Christ and does not know the meaning of Philippians 1:6, "He that hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ." God will continue working good works in us until Christ returns. Don't think otherwise.

Source:
T.U.L.I.P. or, The Five Points of Calvinism

You said:

I can't speak to the other category you claim: Most Calvinists ignore the notion of mortal sin, and either claim no conclusions about "there is a sin unto death" and other places that sound vaguely familiar, or that it is like the verse saying that "he will be saved, yet as through fire". Most of us believe that any sin that God always punishes and does not substitute with the punishment against Christ is not so by category of sin, but by category of election. If I persist in some sin, there may be a time that God will allow it to, or cause it to, or otherwise cause, my death, and if I am of the Elect, I will indeed go to Heaven, and if I am not of the Elect, I will not, and never was saved.

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So then there is no assurance that one is Elect?

You said:

Your sentence: "So a Christian's salvation is not in jeopardy if they lie, look at inappropriate content, hate others, steal, and or swear, etc." does not represent Calvinism at all. At the best, the statement would substitute the word, "Elect", for "Christian", but even then it represents OSAS, not Calvinism. It is a contradiction of Scripture to say that a liar, for example, will see the Kingdom of God, every bit as much as to say a homosexual will. And Calvinism is, if nothing else, willing to accept Scripture over personal notions.

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John MacArthur believes in “Unconditional Election” like all traditional Calvinists do. If one believes in Unconditional Election, they are basically saying that God chooses to save some and God chooses to damn others based on no conditions whatsoever; Hence, why it is called UNconditional Election. This means that God (for no good reason) creates many people for the specific purpose to be tortured in flames and to scream in pain for all eternity by the fact that He just wants to choose in doing that. That does not sound like “God is love” (1 John 4:8), or that “God is just” (Isaiah 61:8) (Job 34:12).

Also, John MacArthur (A Calvinist) teaches that a believer can sin and still be saved.

Some Calvinists will boast in "Lordship Salvation" that is promoted by John MacArthur, but I believe this is a Trojan horse. John MacArthur does not really believe we must live holy exactly (as a part of salvation). How so?

Well, John MacArthur teaches that a believer can commit suicide and still be saved.

At the trial, MacArthur, 45, is seeking to clarify his church’s teaching on suicide. He says, I quote:


Source:
Fundamentalist Clergymen Face Charges of 'Malpractice' When a Parishioner Turns to Suicide

John MacArthur says that a person can take the mark of the beast and they can still be saved afterwards. Listen to this audio clip by him here:

https://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/audio/macarthur-take-mark.mp3

John MacArthur says,

(The MacArthur Study Bible, p. 1927, comment on James 1:15)"

Also, check out this video on John MacArthur teaching that we can sin and still be saved: (Important Note: Turn down sound at the beginning of the video just in case you may have sensitive hearing like me):

Bible Highlighter said:

No sir. Calvinism does not teach that one is saved by the gospel initially but they teach that one is saved initially by Election.

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One is regenerated by the Spirit of God. This happens to the elect alone. God uses the Gospel to accomplish this. Not to say he doesn't give a certain amount of light or whatever else he pleases to use, on those who ultimately are not saved, but the Elect are special to him, just as he treated Israel as his particular people in the OT.

Bible Highlighter said:

John MacArthur believes in “Unconditional Election” like all traditional Calvinists do. If one believes in Unconditional Election, they are basically saying that God chooses to save some and God chooses to damn others based on no conditions whatsoever; Hence, why it is called UNconditional Election. This means that God (for no good reason) creates many people for the specific purpose to be tortured in flames and to scream in pain for all eternity by the fact that He just wants to choose in doing that. That does not sound like “God is love” (1 John 4:8), or that “God is just” (Isaiah 61:8) (Job 34:12).

Also, John MacArthur (A Calvinist) teaches that a believer can sin and still be saved.

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The fact they do not believe shows that they are already condemned. (John 3:18) Their condemnation is for sin.

Does MacArthur believe that the Elect can continue to live in sin? The Greek is "present tense" --i.e. continuous action. I have not heard him say that they can live in sin. The Biblical principle is universal --he that sins will die.

He does not teach that they are damned for no good reason, and from what I have read of him, he teaches that sin is what damns them. It is simple logic to say that God has chosen them for whatever purpose he has for them, not that his whole purpose in creating them was merely to damn them. He also allows that IF they would honestly repent and obey, they would be saved, but that they won't, if God does not regenerate them.

Bible Highlighter said:

Some Calvinists will boast in "Lordship Salvation" that is promoted by John MacArthur, but I believe this is a Trojan horse. John MacArthur does not really believe we must live holy exactly (as a part of salvation). How so?

Well, John MacArthur teaches that a believer can commit suicide and still be saved.

At the trial, MacArthur, 45, is seeking to clarify his church’s teaching on suicide. He says, I quote:

“It’s not only a sin, it’s illegal,” he says. “But we teach that even if a believer takes his own life, the Lord will still receive him into His presence.”
Source:
Fundamentalist Clergymen Face Charges of 'Malpractice' When a Parishioner Turns to Suicide

John MacArthur says that a person can take the mark of the beast and they can still be saved afterwards. Listen to this audio clip by him here:

https://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/audio/macarthur-take-mark.mp3

John MacArthur says,

".. sin does not result in spiritual death for the believer ...”
(The MacArthur Study Bible, p. 1927, comment on James 1:15)"

Also, check out this video on John MacArthur teaching that we can sin and still be saved: (Important Note: Turn down sound at the beginning of the video just in case you may have sensitive hearing like me):

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You should understand his point is in the fact that the only real believers are the Elect. The point he is making is that the Elect will ultimately be saved, regardless. He is not saying they can live just any old way they wish. We all commit sin, but living in sin is another matter.

As for suicide, what is the difference? Where does the notion come from that a suicide is committing the ultimate sin? If the suicide is of one of the Elect, they most certainly will be saved, as God doesn't hold the sin they commit against them. You seem to want some thing to happen that is worse than something Christ's sacrifice can repay.

Mark Quayle said:

One is regenerated by the Spirit of God. This happens to the elect alone. God uses the Gospel to accomplish this. Not to say he doesn't give a certain amount of light or whatever else he pleases to use, on those who ultimately are not saved, but the Elect are special to him, just as he treated Israel as his particular people in the OT.


The fact they do not believe shows that they are already condemned. (John 3:18) Their condemnation is for sin.

Does MacArthur believe that the Elect can continue to live in sin? The Greek is "present tense" --i.e. continuous action. I have not heard him say that they can live in sin. The Biblical principle is universal --he that sins will die.

He does not teach that they are damned for no good reason, and from what I have read of him, he teaches that sin is what damns them. It is simple logic to say that God has chosen them for whatever purpose he has for them, not that his whole purpose in creating them was merely to damn them. He also allows that IF they would honestly repent and obey, they would be saved, but that they won't, if God does not regenerate them.



You should understand his point is in the fact that the only real believers are the Elect. The point he is making is that the Elect will ultimately be saved, regardless. He is not saying they can live just any old way they wish. We all commit sin, but living in sin is another matter.

As for suicide, what is the difference? Where does the notion come from that a suicide is committing the ultimate sin? If the suicide is of one of the Elect, they most certainly will be saved, as God doesn't hold the sin they commit against them. You seem to want some thing to happen that is worse than something Christ's sacrifice can repay.

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You seem to think that one sin is okay between a believer and God, and you mark this as different than a believer living in sin. Just how many sins does it take for a believer to be living in sin? Are you not aware that Adam committed just one sin and it led to the fall of all mankind? He did not have to live in that sin in order to be in disfavor towards God.

Also, in the video, John MacArthur admits that a person can die physically and be taken to Heaven on the account of them committing sin. So this is not holy living.

So can you give me an example of living in sin vs. we all commit sin as believers? Can you really define that? What makes justifying one sin or a little bit of sin any better than justifying lots of sins? Are not both positions one of evil?

Mark Quayle said:

Just a little bit ago, I tried to explain to one poster that Calvinism doesn't hold that the Elect are somehow automatically or by category saved, and kept, but that their life is replete with the work of God in them. Of themselves they are nothing. The old Puritans I have read talk quite a bit more about the suffering of the flesh, the warfare against sin, the agony, the tears, the frustration, and most of all the constant WORK of the Spirit of God in us, the conviction, the integrity of our repentance and obedience, all of it the work of God. God uses means. The regenerated are in Christ --not somebody in and of ourselves.

"The Mortification of Sin" (John Owen) is huge, I can't read much without being reduced to tears and prayer. One quote: "Be killing sin or it be killing you." The fact that God will keep the Elect does not by any means imply they need not keep themselves, but that it is done by the power of God --the Holy Spirit within.

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The problem is that there should not be any warfare against sin if one is Elect and God is the One who keeps a believer by His power to do His good will. God is holy and He is against sin. So if a believer struggles with mortal sin and or still has some kind of mortal sin in their life in some way, this proves that they are not in God's will and or thus, they are not one of God's Elect (if Calvinism was true). For what purpose would God allow for His elect to still be in hinderance to mortal sin? Does God want believers to commit mortal sin a little bit? Is that His sovereign will?

In my book, the fact that believers struggle with seeking to overcome mortal sin in this life is proof that we have free will and we are trying to align with God's will. If God was just forcing us to be a certain way, then we would be walking perfectly in His will. But seeing this is not the case, we can conclude Calvinism is simply not true. Granted, there are many examples in Scripture that Calvinism is not true, but this should be a big one.

Mark Quayle said:

The use of the word, "Might", is not talking about chances or even probability, but opportunity. Verse 10 shows the reprobate behaving true to form. They WILL not receive, and they have no desire for, the love of the truth. You might take a good look at just how that love of the truth is something "received", though.

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This is what I am talking about. You cannot read 2 Thessalonians 2:10 at face value and believe it plainly. But when you read verses that appear to defend Calvinism, you read them at face value in an extremely literal sense at the expense of the context. Take for example when Scripture says we were once dead. Calvinists take this metaphor to mean that the dead cannot respond and or do anything by taking this metaphor too far. If such were the case with metaphors used in the Bible, one might conclude that Jesus might actually have hinges because He is referred to as a door.