Who Doesn't Go To Hell?

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The time to get in Christ (a.k.a. in him) is now, before passing on. Otherwise death will lock you in Adam and you'll be stuck there forever with no hope of escape.
You might want scriptural support for that claim
Down at the end of Revelation, after all is said and done-- the two resurrections, the great white throne event, the destruction of the current cosmos, the construction of a new cosmos, and the lowering to earth of the new Jerusalem --these closing remarks appear:

"And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life." (Rev 21:27)

"He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still." (Rev 22:11)

"Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie." (Rev 22:14-15)

People whose character fits the descriptions in those passages will be stuck that way. That's it; their situation will be final, complete, and permanent: no remedy and no escape.


FYI: "all things new" is exclusive. It pertains only to a special fraternity of folks whose names were written in the lamb's book of life from the creation of the world. The remainder will be discarded in the lake of brimstone from whence they will never come back because according to Dan 12:2 & John 5:28-29 there is only one resurrection allotted per person. The discards will use their one to stand trial at the great white throne event. (Rev 20:11-15)
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Shrewd Manager

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FYI: "all things new" is exclusive. It pertains only to a special fraternity of folks whose names were written in the lamb's book of life from the creation of the world. The remainder will be discarded in the lake of brimstone from whence they will never come back because according to Dan 12:2 & John 5:28-29 there is only one resurrection allotted per person. The discards will use their one to stand trial at the great white throne event. (Rev 20:11-15)

Lol, so God is 'gilding the lily' here, He really means 'I am making a few things new, the rest I am trashing'? Thanks, but I'll stick with His words rather than yours in His mouth. Yes, one resurrection then the judgment. And what is the purpose of the judgment? To make anew. To set right, to destroy sin, to purify the sinner, to pour the Spirit over all flesh.

"And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life." (Rev 21:27)

"He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still." (Rev 22:11)

"Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie." (Rev 22:14-15)

People whose character fits the descriptions in those passages will be stuck that way. That's it; their situation will be final, complete, and permanent: no remedy and no escape.

Ah, that ol' chestnut. Well, there are a number of contra-indications to the 'fly in aspic' theory of the eschaton. The first is the 'making all things new'. That indicates a dynamic process is occurring, not a stasis. Things are changing in a big way, God's doing housework with this mega-renovation. Also you might ask why the Pearly Gates stand ever-open (Rev 21:25) if there's no hope of thoroughfare. And how the nations could be toasted by heavenly fire (Rev 20:9) and/or cast into the LoF (Rev 20:15, 21:8), but later re-emerge to worship (Rev 21:24, 26) and for to be healed by the leaves of the tree of life (Rev 22:2).

And please don't sing me the mistranslation 'the nations of them which are saved' (in 21:24), as this is dislodged by Rev 15:4, song of Moshe and Lamb, which promises (and this is THE eponymous revelation) that all the nations will worship.

So the sinners and reprobates stay outside UNTIL they have overcome in the LoF, washed their robes in the blood of the Lamb. That's the condition of entry into the Lamb's Book of Life. For some unfortunates, this may very well be a virtual eternity. Jesus can raise the dead and heal the worst leprosy in a moment. What takes longer to overcome is the leaven of phariseeism.

Idk why ppl have so much trouble with the idea of the God who saves actually saving in a big way. Ppl always look to find ways to shorten God's arm. I know you're desperate to have as many folks as possible check into the fiery sector of hades and be consigned to the firepit for eternity, but maybe it's time to let Jesus win. The Salvation of Yah is, after all, the aleph and the omega.
 
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sparow

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It is a terrible, awful tragedy that so many people end up in Hell simply because they didn't believe Christ's crucifixion is an adequate retribution for their sins; and also that God is fully agreeable to shredding the indictment He was compiling against them listing all the bad things they ever did, and/or they will ever do, in thought, word, and deed.

2Cor 5:19 . . God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ; not counting men's sins against them.

The Greek word translated "counting" is logizomai (log-id'-zom-ahee) which means to take an inventory. Bear with me while I flesh this out a bit.

Rev 20:11-15 depicts an enormous courtroom scene-- sometimes referred to as the great white throne event --wherein books will be opened. The word is plural because there's a book being kept for each individual. Were a redeemed sinner's book to be opened, there would be no entries in so it would appear as if they have never been anything but 100% innocent. For example:

Let's say, hypothetically, that a redeemed Charles Manson is summoned to appear and a bailiff delivers his book to the Judge. Upon examining Charles' book, the Judge would have to acquit Mr. Manson because there would be no entries in his book for the Judge to charge him with.

Now of course many of us from back in the twentieth century know what a degenerate scum bag Charles was in life; but no matter. Were he redeemed, none of Charles' scuminess would be recorded in his book, viz: he would not be required to answer for the gruesome murder of Sharon Tate and her unborn child.

As outrageous, and as an intolerable miscarriage of justice as that may seem; it serves to give a pretty good idea of just how effective Christ's crucifixion is as an adequate retribution for people's sins.
_

Everyone dies and goes to the grave, except those alive when Christ returns; where they rest until their resurrection.

Hypothetically I wouldn't give Manson much chance and hypothetically Manson's sin was he was too week to resist evil spirits.

Christ's crucifixion gave him the right to judge everyone and enabled the salvation process; but no one comes to the Son unless the Father draw him and "unless you repent" could be seen as the eleventh commandment.
 
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Saint Steven

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Everyone dies and goes to the grave, except those alive when Christ returns; where they rest until their resurrection.

Hypothetically I wouldn't give Manson much chance and hypothetically Manson's sin was he was too week to resist evil spirits.

Christ's crucifixion gave him the right to judge everyone and enabled the salvation process; but no one comes to the Son unless the Father draw him and "unless you repent" could be seen as the eleventh commandment.
What do you make of these?

1 Timothy 4:10
That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God,
who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe.

1 John 4:14
And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world.

1 Corinthians 15:22
For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.
 
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sparow

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What do you make of these?

1 Timothy 4:10
That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God,
who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe.

1 John 4:14
And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world.

1 Corinthians 15:22
For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.


I would never take a verse out of it's context; I quote a verse occasionally but with context implied; at a quick glance you seem to be taking the high lighted phrases literally instead of literarily. " the Savior of all people" , it is Savior who is being spoken about and He has done all that is necessary that all might be saved but the people have to be righteous to be saved and not all are.

Galatians 5:18-21 (NKJV)
18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.
19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness,
20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies,
21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

I regard 18. as useless rhetoric and misleading.

The epistles of John and Peter are to those who most likely knew Jesus personally and they are coaching them to not fall away and forfeit the salvation; Jesus is the Savior of the world in that there is no other but salvation requires personal interaction and acceptance.

"so in Christ all will be made alive." I suspect you are reading a wrong meaning into this; All in Christ will be made alive; all those not in Christ will not be made alive.
 
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Saint Steven

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I would never take a verse out of it's context; I quote a verse occasionally but with context implied; at a quick glance you seem to be taking the high lighted phrases literally instead of literarily. " the Savior of all people" , it is Savior who is being spoken about and He has done all that is necessary that all might be saved but the people have to be righteous to be saved and not all are.
What is it about the context that makes these verses false in your opinion?

Saint Steven said:
What do you make of these?

1 Timothy 4:10
That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God,
who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe.

1 John 4:14
And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world.

1 Corinthians 15:22
For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.
 
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WebersHome

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That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe.
A clinic in my area is offering free covid-19 testing to everyone, however, the clinic first requires making an appointment, viz; no appointment, no test, i.e. no belief, no Savior.

John 3:17-18 . . For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

John 3:36 . . He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
_
 
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Saint Steven

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A clinic in my area is offering free covid-19 testing to everyone, however, the clinic first requires making an appointment, viz; no appointment, no test, i.e. no belief, no Savior.

John 3:17-18 . . For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

John 3:36 . . He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
_
Bible versus Bible. Who will win? Who will lose?
 
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Saint Steven

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This was addressed back in post No.199
_
Apparently it was sent to the wrong address. - LOL

You shouldn't move the words around until it fits your doctrine. The word "all" needs to stay where it is. It's "as in Adam all" and "so in Christ all". The all is the same group.

Saint Steven said:
For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.
 
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WebersHome

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Bible versus Bible. Who will win? Who will lose?

It's not a matter of winning or losing; as if we're in a competition. It's a matter of who is protected and who is exposed, viz: who will make it to safety, and who won't.
_
 
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Saint Steven

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It's not a matter of winning or losing; as if we're in a competition. It's a matter of who is protected and who is exposed, viz: who will make it to safety, and who won't.
_
Do you really think that God plays games like that?
 
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WebersHome

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Do you really think that God plays games like that?
My honest, unbiased opinion? Yes; I think God toys with people.

In point of fact, it appears to me that God created the entire cosmos-- all of its forms of life, matter, and energy --for His own amusement; and we all are like crickets in an insect zoo; just little bugs imprisoned in a terrarium; powerless to prevent the master of the house from getting bored and dumping the lot of us out in the backyard where the spiders and the birds can get to us.

You know, God sort of did that once already with a global deluge. I wouldn't put it past Him to do something like that again. For example Rev 16:18-19 predicts a world-wide earthquake preceding Christ's return so severe on the Richter scale that cities all over the world will collapse at once.

Something like 2,829 lost their lives when the World Trade Center was demolished by a terrorist attack in 2001. Well that was only a few acres of New York City. Just imagine the body count when all of Manhattan comes down at once. along with other major cities like Los Angeles, San Francisco, Mexico City, Paris, Moscow, Beijing, Tokyo, et al. The carnage will be beyond belief.
_
 
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sparow

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What is it about the context that makes these verses false in your opinion?

Saint Steven said:
What do you make of these?

1 Timothy 4:10
That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God,
who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe.

1 John 4:14
And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world.

1 Corinthians 15:22
For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.

There is nothing wrong with the scripture verses; I have had to assume what your issue is with the word "all". Some people believe all are going to be saved, after reading these verses; but clearly from the rest of scripture, many will be lost; Jesus is not the savior of the lost; for those who choose to be saved Jesus is the only savior. You are not saying why you highlight those phrases.
 
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Saint Steven

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There is nothing wrong with the scripture verses; I have had to assume what your issue is with the word "all". Some people believe all are going to be saved, after reading these verses; but clearly from the rest of scripture, many will be lost; Jesus is not the savior of the lost; for those who choose to be saved Jesus is the only savior. You are not saying why you highlight those phrases.
Nothing wrong with the scripture verses? (you say)
There is most certainly something WRONG with these scripture verses if you claim the rest of the Bible disagrees with them. Right?

Saint Steven said:
What is it about the context that makes these verses false in your opinion?

Saint Steven said:
What do you make of these?

1 Timothy 4:10
That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God,
who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe.

1 John 4:14
And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world.

1 Corinthians 15:22
For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.
 
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Mark Quayle

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1 Timothy 4:10
That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God,
who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe.
Not that you asked me, but I thought I would mention that this is probably the most obvious one showing that all is not used the way some want it to be used. By its differentiating between "all" and "especially [all]" it shows the use means that there are none who are saved any other way --that is, that if anyone, (specially those who believe) are to be saved, it is through Christ.
 
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sparow

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Nothing wrong with the scripture verses? (you say)
There is most certainly something WRONG with these scripture verses if you claim the rest of the Bible disagrees with them. Right?

Saint Steven said:
What is it about the context that makes these verses false in your opinion?

Saint Steven said:
What do you make of these?

1 Timothy 4:10
That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God,
who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe.

1 John 4:14
And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world.

1 Corinthians 15:22
For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.

At this place in scripture, there is nothing wrong or disagreed; the problem is with your reading of it, English may not be your first language.
 
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WebersHome

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At this place in scripture, there is nothing wrong or disagreed; the problem is with your reading of it, English may not be your first language.
Universalists are typically very good at reading the Bible, and adept at quoting it; but they are not very good at piecing it together.

2Tim 2:15 . . Be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

The Greek word translated "rightly dividing" is orthotomeo (or-thot-om-eh'-o) which means: to make a straight cut-- as opposed to a crooked cut --or a cut that misses the line and yields a piece of material that's either too long, too short, or the wrong contour; thus resulting in a finished product whose pieces won't join properly when it comes time for assembly.

The gist of 2Tim 2:15 means to piece the Bible together so that it all fits perfectly from first to last, like a well made armoire instead of a hastily constructed rabbit hutch.

Universalists have trouble making their pet verses fit together with many other verses in the Bible because they have bent and twisted their favorite verses out of shape, so to speak, by forcing them to mean things never intended by the authors.
_
 
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Mark Quayle

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The Greek word translated "rightly dividing" is orthotomeo (or-thot-om-eh'-o) which means: to make a straight cut-- as opposed to a crooked cut --or a cut that misses the line and yields a piece of material that's either too long, too short, or the wrong contour; thus resulting in a finished product whose pieces won't join properly when it comes time for assembly.

The gist of 2Tim 2:15 means to piece the Bible together so that it all fits perfectly from first to last, like a well made armoire instead of a hastily constructed rabbit hutch.

Universalists have trouble making their pet verses fit together with many other verses in the Bible because they have bent and twisted their favorite verses out of shape, so to speak, by forcing them to mean things never intended by the authors.

Off topic, I suppose, but so interesting to me that I want to say it: This sort of thing is why I LOVE the fact of Election. I have not yet been able to prove it, but I have come to believe that in Rev 21 the New Jerusalem descending AS a Bride, IS the Bride, as the Bride that she is. I believe that it is the Elect that Christ has gone to prepare. Either way, though, the Elect are the Dwelling Place of God. It does not make sense to me that the God who created the universe would stint on this particular construction. He made each of the elect to exactly fit where he planned, members of the Bride of Christ. He is not going to trust to chance or the will of man to salvage a good enough product.

I was a cabinet maker; I know about fit. Here you have God, who can make and grow his own raw materials specifically for the fit he has in mind, then shape and form them into the perfect fit.
 
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Saint Steven

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Not that you asked me, but I thought I would mention that this is probably the most obvious one showing that all is not used the way some want it to be used. By its differentiating between "all" and "especially [all]" it shows the use means that there are none who are saved any other way --that is, that if anyone, (specially those who believe) are to be saved, it is through Christ.
I disagree.
Obviously the "especially of those who believe" is a subset of "all people".

Like this: "Everyone had a great time at the annual picnic, and especially those who won the volley ball tournament."

Who had a great time? Everyone. Who had an especially great time? Those who won the volley ball tournament. Did those who did not win the volley ball tournament not have a great time? Nope, everyone had a great time.

Saint Steven said:
1 Timothy 4:10
That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God,
who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe.
 
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