WHEN WAS CHRIST CRUCIFIED?

AFrazier

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Paul was a Pharisee who of course knew these old testament scriptures Numbers 28:16-25; Exodus 12:2-11; Leviticus 23:4-8 and that the Passover lambs were sacrificed Nisan 14 (day 1/8 prep for Passover and Unleavened bread Feasts starting Nisan 15) and eaten at the Feast of Passover and Unleavened bread on Nisan 15 (7 day feast with unleavened bread; day starting in the evening not morning - biblical day) according to the scriptures of the old testament quoted above. There is no bias in the scriptures shared with you, only the scriptures from the old explaining the new. None of the scripture from all gospel are confusing if you understand the old testament Passover timings and the terms that were used in those days. Paul would have known that Jesus could not have been the paschal lamb of Passover if his death was Nisan 15 as the lamb had to be slain and prepared for the Passover Feast (Nisan 15 - day 2/8) on Nisan 14 (day 1/8) according to the old testament scriptures posted above.
What you're saying is jumbled, so indulge me for clarification of your intended point ...

Are you saying that the Passover lamb was eaten at night as the 13th calendar date became the 14th calendar date; eaten, therefore, at the very beginning of the 14th?

Or are you agreeing with me that the lambs are killed on the afternoon of the 14th and eaten in the evening at the end of the 14th as it began to become the 15th? But because Jesus is our symbolic Passover, he therefore had to die on the 14th?

Please clarify which argument you are making.
 
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AFrazier

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Nowhere in scripture does it say that...

in the fourteenth day of the first month at even is YHVH/(the-LORD’s) Passover. and on the fifteenth day of the same month is the Feast of Unleavened Bread unto YHVH/(the-LORD): seven days ye must eat unleavened bread. in the first day ye shall have a Holy Convocation: ye shall do no servile work therein. but ye shall offer an offering made by fire unto YHVH/(the-LORD) seven days: in the seventh day is a Holy Convocation: ye shall do no servile work therein.

Jesus died "at the ninth hour" of the day (Matthew 27:46–50, Mark 15:34–37). Luke 22:1 says that the feast was drawing closer (the 15th) so it was still the 14th. The 15th was a holy day with no work allowed and no commerce. The 1st day and 7th day were "sabbaths". Matthew says: At that time the chief priests and elders of the people assembled in the courtyard of the high priest, whose name was Caiaphas, and they conspired to arrest Jesus secretly and kill him “But not during the feast,” they said, “or there may be a riot among the people.
Exodus 12:15 - Seven days shall ye eat unleavened bread; even the first day ye shall put away leaven out of your houses: for whosoever eateth leavened bread from the first day until the seventh day, that soul shall be cut off from Israel.

Exodus 23:18 - Thou shalt not offer the blood of my sacrifice with leavened bread; neither shall the fat of my sacrifice remain until the morning.

Exodus 34:25 - Thou shalt not offer the blood of my sacrifice with leaven; neither shall the sacrifice of the feast of the passover be left unto the morning.

Deuteronomy 16:4 - And there shall be no leavened bread seen with thee in all thy coast seven days; neither shall there any thing of the flesh, which thou sacrificedst the first day at even, remain all night until the morning.

Leaven was prohibited on the 14th beginning at the sixth hour of the day (Approximately noon). Exod. 34:25, cf. Exod. 12:3, 6, 18; Deut. 16:6; b.Pesah. 5a, 58a; cf. b.Yoma 28b; Joseph BJ 6.423.

The 14th was the first day of the days of unleavened bread. Exod. 12:15 and Deut. 16:4 both identify the day of the sacrifice as the "first" of the days that leaven is not to be found in all their coasts. And then for seven days they were to eat unleavened bread as part of the Feast of Unleavened Bread.

You really should do some homework.
 
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AFrazier

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Unleavened was eaten from the Pesakh meal until the evening of the 21st...
And the Pesakh meal was eaten on the 14th. It was the first day of unleavened bread.
 
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AFrazier

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No, Edersheim does not agree with you, you agree with Edersheim... :)
Keep your petty semantics to yourself. You know very well what I meant. You're just trying to insult me, and I resent it.
 
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LoveGodsWord

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What you're saying is jumbled, so indulge me for clarification of your intended point ...

Are you saying that the Passover lamb was eaten at night as the 13th calendar date became the 14th calendar date; eaten, therefore, at the very beginning of the 14th?

Or are you agreeing with me that the lambs are killed on the afternoon of the 14th and eaten in the evening at the end of the 14th as it began to become the 15th? But because Jesus is our symbolic Passover, he therefore had to die on the 14th?

Please clarify which argument you are making.
There is nothing jumbled in anything I have provided. I think it is pretty clear when I have stated and provided scripture showing that the preparation of Passover and Unleavened bread (day 1/8) was 14 Nisan and the Feasts when Passover and Unleavened bread were eaten (2/8 = 7 days) was 15 Nisan. I have stated this and shown scripture for this from my first post.
 
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AFrazier

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There is nothing jumbled in anything I have provided. I think it is pretty clear when I have stated and provided scripture showing that the preparation of Passover and Unleavened bread (day 1/8) was 14 Nisan and the Feasts when Passover and Unleavened bread were eaten (2/8 = 7 days) was 15 Nisan. I have stated this and shown scripture for this from my first post.
Why are you people so inclined to arguing? I asked for clarification of what you're trying to say. And you didn't answer. It was jumbled reasoning to ME. I didn't grasp what you were trying to communicate. Can't you just clarify like I asked? Is that really so hard??!!??!!

Which argument is it that you're making? That Jesus ate on the 13th/14th? What is your position, exactly?

Frankly, what you're saying agrees with MY position. The 14th is the day the lamb is slain. It is the first day when all leaven had to be removed from the land. So when the disciples came to Jesus on the first day of unleavened bread, when the passover must be killed, your own breakdown says that that day, by Luke and Mark's descriptions, was the afternoon of the 14th. And since Jesus was crucified the next day, he died on the 15th.
 
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LoveGodsWord

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Why are you people so inclined to arguing? I asked for clarification of what you're trying to say. And you didn't answer. It was jumbled reasoning to ME. I didn't grasp what you were trying to communicate. Can't you just clarify like I asked? Is that really so hard??!!??!!
I thought I did clarify everything from the first posts. I was not trying to argue with you :). I stated and provided the scriptures from the old and new testament from the first post showing that Passover starts Nisan 14 (day 1/8 preparation), this is not the Feast of Passover though that starts on the Nisan 15 (day 2/8 when the 7 day Feast starts). Not sure why you think that is jumbled or hard to understand and I was not arguing with you. I only provided scripture and said the same things here for clarification. Perhaps you have a misunderstanding? Sometimes written words can cause misunderstandings. If mine has caused you any my apologies. It was not my intention to do so though.
 
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AFrazier

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I thought I did clarify everything from the first posts. I was not trying to argue with you :). I stated and provided the scriptures from the old and new testament from the first post showing that Passover starts Nisan 14 (day 1/8 preparation), this is not the Feast of Passover though that starts on the Nisan 15 (day 2/8 when the 7 day Feast starts). Not sure why you think that is jumbled or hard to understand and I was not arguing with you. I only provided scripture and said the same things here for clarification. Perhaps you have a misunderstanding? Sometimes written words can cause misunderstandings. If mine has caused you any my apologies. It was not my intention to do so though.
The misunderstanding is in your conclusion. You're saying a bunch of things that I understand, and that I agree with. But you are at variance with me. So your argument is unclear to me.

We agree that:

• The Passover holiday as a whole begins on the 14th.
• The Passover lamb is sacrificed on the 14th in the afternoon.
• The Passover feast is eaten on the evening of the 14th as the 15th approaches at sunset.
• The Feast of Unleavened Bread begins on the 15th.

What we do not seem to agree on:

• The afternoon preceding the Last Supper was the 14th, per Mark and Luke, who both claim that the disciples came to Jesus on the first day of unleavened bread, when the Passover was killed, inquiring where he wanted them to prepare for him to keep the festival.

So where is our disconnect? What is your argument that you are in disagreement with me? The first day of unleavened bread (not the Feast of Unleavened Bread, but the first day of the days of unleavened bread) is the 14th. All leaven had to be destroyed before the sacrifices could begin. The day the lambs were slain is the 14th. These two points are not disputable. Therefore, the disciples came to Jesus on the afternoon of the 14th. The Last Supper followed. Jesus was arrested that night, and then crucified the next day. The day after the 14th is the 15th.

If you disagree with this conclusion, please explain why. I don't need a scripture lesson. I have been studying this topic for over twenty years. I just need your logic and argument. Why do you disagree with my conclusion?
 
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LoveGodsWord

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The misunderstanding is in your conclusion. You're saying a bunch of things that I understand, and that I agree with. But you are at variance with me. So your argument is unclear to me.

We agree that:

• The Passover holiday as a whole begins on the 14th.
• The Passover lamb is sacrificed on the 14th in the afternoon.
• The Passover feast is eaten on the evening of the 14th as the 15th approaches at sunset.
• The Feast of Unleavened Bread begins on the 15th.

What we do not seem to agree on:

• The afternoon preceding the Last Supper was the 14th, per Mark and Luke, who both claim that the disciples came to Jesus on the first day of unleavened bread, when the Passover was killed, inquiring where he wanted them to prepare for him to keep the festival.

So where is our disconnect? What is your argument that you are in disagreement with me? The first day of unleavened bread (not the Feast of Unleavened Bread, but the first day of the days of unleavened bread) is the 14th. All leaven had to be destroyed before the sacrifices could begin. The day the lambs were slain is the 14th. These two points are not disputable. Therefore, the disciples came to Jesus on the afternoon of the 14th. The Last Supper followed. Jesus was arrested that night, and then crucified the next day. The day after the 14th is the 15th.

If you disagree with this conclusion, please explain why. I don't need a scripture lesson. I have been studying this topic for over twenty years. I just need your logic and argument. Why do you disagree with my conclusion?

Not really dear friend. As posted earlier your mistake is that you think Nisan 14 is a Feast day it is not it is day 1/8 and the preparation for the Feast which starts on Nisan 15. Day 1/8 (Nisan 14) is also called Passover but not Feast of Passover which starts Nisan 15. The scriptures have already been provided. This is only repetition that has already been addressed.

To make this obvious, how can the Passover Feast be eaten on the Nisan 14 which starts in the evening when the Passover sacrifice does not happen until the next day in the afternoon coming into Nisan 15? Can you see your mistake here?

Death of Jesus and Feast days-3.jpg

I think your problem is in the day reckoning of when a biblical day started. It starts in the evening not the morning.

Hope this is helpful.
 
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AFrazier

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Not really dear friend. As posted earlier your mistake is that you think Nisan 14 is a Feast day it is not it is day 1/8 and the preparation for the Feast which started on Nisan 15. The scriptures have already been provided. This is only repetition that has already been addressed. To make this obvious, how can the Passover Feast be eaten on the Nisan 14 which starts in the evening when the Passover sacrifice does not happen until the next day in the afternoon coming into Nisan 15? Can you see your mistake here?
I see. You have your days mixed up.

The Passover lamb was sacrificed during the afternoon of the 14th day. The Jewish understanding of "evening" was any time after noon, as the sun began to move towards the western horizon. Later in the evening, near sunset, the Passover feast would begin. The feast carried on past sunset and into the 15th. The lamb had to be consumed by midnight, or have what remained be burned.

If your understanding of the events of the festival is other than this, you are mistaken.
 
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LoveGodsWord

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I see. You have your days mixed up.

The Passover lamb was sacrificed during the afternoon of the 14th day. The Jewish understanding of "evening" was any time after noon, as the sun began to move towards the western horizon. Later in the evening, near sunset, the Passover feast would begin. The feast carried on past sunset and into the 15th. The lamb had to be consumed by midnight, or have what remained be burned.

If your understanding of the events of the festival is other than this, you are mistaken.

No it is you that has your days mixed up. As already shown in Numbers 28:16-25; Exodus 12:2-11; Leviticus 23:5 and the scriptures provided in the summary table in the previous post to you. As posted earlier to make this obvious, how can the Passover Feast be eaten on the Nisan 14 which starts in the evening when the Passover sacrifice does not happen until the next day in the afternoon coming into Nisan 15? Can you see your mistake here? Your mistake is in the day reckoning.
 
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Yeshua HaDerekh

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Keep your petty semantics to yourself. You know very well what I meant. You're just trying to insult me, and I resent it.

Petty semantics? He proposed what you are repeating long before you were born, so yes, you agree with him.
 
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Yeshua HaDerekh

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And the Pesakh meal was eaten on the 14th. It was the first day of unleavened bread.

No it wasn't...it is the 15th, the 1st day of unleavened after sunset on the 14th (which is actually already the 15th). The lambs were killed on the 14th.
 
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Yeshua HaDerekh

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I see. You have your days mixed up.

The Passover lamb was sacrificed during the afternoon of the 14th day. The Jewish understanding of "evening" was any time after noon, as the sun began to move towards the western horizon. Later in the evening, near sunset, the Passover feast would begin. The feast carried on past sunset and into the 15th. The lamb had to be consumed by midnight, or have what remained be burned.

If your understanding of the events of the festival is other than this, you are mistaken.

Erev is evening. The Pesakh meal was at or after sunset on the 15th. None of it shall remain until morning...Deuteronomy 16:4...Exodus 12:8 was eaten at night...Mah nishtanah haleilah hazeh mikol haleilot?
 
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Yeshua HaDerekh

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Exodus 12:15 - Seven days shall ye eat unleavened bread; even the first day ye shall put away leaven out of your houses: for whosoever eateth leavened bread from the first day until the seventh day, that soul shall be cut off from Israel.

Exodus 23:18 - Thou shalt not offer the blood of my sacrifice with leavened bread; neither shall the fat of my sacrifice remain until the morning.

Exodus 34:25 - Thou shalt not offer the blood of my sacrifice with leaven; neither shall the sacrifice of the feast of the passover be left unto the morning.

Deuteronomy 16:4 - And there shall be no leavened bread seen with thee in all thy coast seven days; neither shall there any thing of the flesh, which thou sacrificedst the first day at even, remain all night until the morning.

Leaven was prohibited on the 14th beginning at the sixth hour of the day (Approximately noon). Exod. 34:25, cf. Exod. 12:3, 6, 18; Deut. 16:6; b.Pesah. 5a, 58a; cf. b.Yoma 28b; Joseph BJ 6.423.

The 14th was the first day of the days of unleavened bread. Exod. 12:15 and Deut. 16:4 both identify the day of the sacrifice as the "first" of the days that leaven is not to be found in all their coasts. And then for seven days they were to eat unleavened bread as part of the Feast of Unleavened Bread.

You really should do some homework.

So your days begin on the 14th and end on the 20th...not the 15th to the 21st? Leviticus 23:6
So what day in your scenario is the wave sheaf offered? On the morning of the day after the weekly Sabbath (Sunday) or the day after the 15th (the 16th)??
 
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AFrazier

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No it is you that has your days mixed up. As already shown in Numbers 28:16-25; Exodus 12:2-11; Leviticus 23:5 and the scriptures provided in the summary table in the previous post to you. As posted earlier to make this obvious, how can the Passover Feast be eaten on the Nisan 14 which starts in the evening when the Passover sacrifice does not happen until the next day in the afternoon coming into Nisan 15? Can you see your mistake here? Your mistake is in the day reckoning.
Look, I have been researching this topic on an academic level for just over twenty years. I've read enough books to fill multiple bookshelves, and there are piles of books on the floor besides those. I have studied Biblical, Jewish, and secular histories as far back as the seventh century BCE and as far forward as the fourteenth century CE. I am intimately familiar with the Talmud and the Jewish customs described in it. I DO know what I'm talking about. You aren't debating with someone who has a five-month internet education in New Testament chronology. I have studied and researched this topic long enough that I feel comfortable and confident in calling myself an expert on the subject. I would have no problem holding my own in a conversation with a professor or scholar in this field of study.

As for you? I have no idea what your education is. I have no idea what you've researched and what you have not. My suspicion, based on the views you hold, is that you haven't studied or researched anything outside of the internet. I was where you are once upon a time. But I learned differently through diligent study and research. I don't rightly care what interpretation you have chosen to apply to the passages you're presenting. The order of events as I listed them IS how it was done.

• The 13th of Nisan, at twilight—the period of time during sunset when there is still light, but very dim—the first search for leaven would be conducted by candlelight. At full sunset, it would become the 14th.

• The 14th of Nisan, also referred to as the "Eve of the Passover," and never once in Jewish literature referred to as the "Preparation of the Passover," at the morning twilight—the period of time during sunrise when the full dark began to lighten—the second search for leaven would be conducted, also by candlelight.
Food was permitted to be eaten until noon. Leaven was permitted in the house until 11:00 a.m., which is when the third and final search for leaven was conducted.
At noon, all leaven had to be burned. This is the first day when leaven was not to be found in all their coasts (i.e. the first-most day of unleavened bread (Matthew, in fact, uses the superlative).
Up to two representatives would present a lamb at the temple for sacrifice and register the party of people who would be partaking of it. Parties were allowed to be as many as thirteen.
At 3:00 p.m. the Passover sacrifices began (2:00 p.m. if the Passover was on the Sabbath). The lambs were roasted, and the registered party would come together at their designated place and consume the Passover lamb late in the evening near sunset. Once the sun fully set and it was night, it was the 15th.

• The 15th of Nisan was the first day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread. It was also a holiday based Sabbath.
On this day, another sacrifice was made. This time it was haggigah, or a festive offering. They referred to this offering as pesach (the passover), just as they did the lamb of the 14th. This offering could be made of the herd, and not just the flock. It was equally obligatory to the lamb on the 14th.

• The 16th of Nisan was the first day after the Sabbath according to the predominant practice during the first century. It was the waving of the sheaf and firstfruits, and the first day in the count towards Pentecost.

This is how it was. It doesn't matter what interpretations you have, or how you think it happened. This is the documented practice of the Jews during the first century.

So when the disciples come to Jesus on the first day of unleavened bread, when the passover must be killed, asking where to prepare the passover so he could keep the festival, and then two disciples are sent to prepare it, and do so ... this is the 14th day of the month. The last supper followed. Jesus was crucified the next day. That next day was the 15th. The day following the crucifixion was a Sabbath, and that Sabbath was a great day, because it was the 16th, the waving of the sheaf, firstfruits, and the start of the count to Pentecost.
 
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Citizen of the Kingdom

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Propitiation toward reconciliation was not possible before the cross.

Leviticus 23:6-8, 14; 1 Corinthians 15:20-23

There could be no edification from the firstfruits until they had been waved before the Lord and accepted by Him. Once accepted the nation could be sustained for another year. Jesus, as the reality of the firstfruits, came to fulfill this everlasting ordinance by providing a means thru which all sinners could be forgiven, in repenting, to receive the gift of everlasting life. What this means is that for the OT believers is that the means had not yet been opened to them because God had not yet accepted the offering that was foretold in the ritual. The offering had not yet been accepted. John 20:17, John 6:35, 48

John 5:39-40
“You search the scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is they that testify on my behalf. Yet you refuse to come to me to have life.


The Lamb offering

Leviticus 23:12
On the day you wave the sheaf, you must sacrifice as a burnt offering to the Lord a lamb a year old without defect,,

Exodus 12:3-5
Tell the whole community of Israel that on the tenth day of this month each man is to take a lamb for his family, one for each household. If any household is too small for a whole lamb, they must share one with their nearest neighbor, having taken into account the number of people there are. You are to determine the amount of lamb needed in accordance with what each person will eat. The animals you choose must be year-old males without defect, and you may take them from the sheep or the goats.


The significance of the waving of a sheaf offering of the first-fruits is its newness as the very first of the first-fruits of the harvest.

Leviticus 23:14
You shall eat no bread or parched grain or fresh ears until that very day, until you have brought the offering of your God: it is a statute forever throughout your generations in all your settlements.

1 Corinthians 15:20-23
But in fact Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who have died. For since death came through a human being, the resurrection of the dead has also come through a human being; for as all die in Adam, so all will be made alive in Christ. But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ.


Accepting Christ as our Passover, we should also accept him as the first-fruit offering. This leads up to “The Feast of First-Fruits” otherwise known as “Pentecost”.

John 20:1
Early on the first day of the week, while it was still dark, Mary Magdalene came to the tomb and saw that the stone had been removed from the tomb.

John 20:11-17
But Mary stood weeping outside the tomb. As she wept, she bent over to look into the tomb; and she saw two angels in white, sitting where the body of Jesus had been lying, one at the head and the other at the feet. They said to her, “Woman, why are you weeping?” She said to them, “They have taken away my Lord, and I do not know where they have laid him.” When she had said this, she turned around and saw Jesus standing there, but she did not know that it was Jesus. Jesus said to her, “Woman, why are you weeping? Whom are you looking for?” Supposing him to be the gardener, she said to him, “Sir, if you have carried him away, tell me where you have laid him, and I will take him away.” Jesus said to her, “Mary!” She turned and said to him in Hebrew, “Rabbouni!” (which means Teacher). Jesus said to her, “Do not hold on to me, because I have not yet ascended to the Father. But go to my brothers and say to them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’”

Here we see that the Messiah had not yet risen to the Father. He had not yet become the first-fruit of all mankind.

The symbolism of the wave offering is the ascension of Jesus Christ to our Father as first of the first-fruits.

The timing of the ascension to the Father of Jesus Christ, and the sacrifice of the unblemished first-fruits lamb occurred at the same time. Just as the timing of the Messiah giving his life for mankind occurred at the same time as the unblemished Passover lamb was sacrificed.

The single male lamb without blemish is a commanded sacrifice on only two set apart feast dates. One being the Passover lamb and the other being, the Wave Offering lamb.

1 Peter 1:18-21
You know that you were ransomed from the futile ways inherited from your ancestors, not with perishable things like silver or gold, but with the precious blood of Christ, like that of a lamb without defect or blemish. He was destined before the foundation of the world, but was revealed at the end of the ages for your sake. Through him you have come to trust in God, who raised him from the dead and gave him glory, so that your faith and hope are set on God.


notes: https://nebula.wsimg.com/31add2f969...32A45CB098432D4AD&disposition=0&alloworigin=1


Propitiation toward reconciliation was not possible before the cross.


There could be no edification from the firstfruits until they had been waved before the Lord and accepted by Him.

The significance of the waving of a sheaf offering of the first-fruits is its newness as the very first of the first-fruits of the harvest.


Accepting Christ as our Passover, we also accept him as the first-fruit offering. This leads up to “The Feast of First-Fruits” otherwise known as “Pentecost”.


Leviticus 23:14
You shall eat no bread or parched grain or fresh ears until that very day, until you have brought the offering of your God: it is a statute forever throughout your generations in all your settlements.


The timing of the ascension to the Father of Jesus Christ, and the sacrifice of the unblemished first-fruits lamb occurred at the same time. Just as the timing of the Messiah giving his life for mankind occurred at the same time as the unblemished Passover lamb was sacrificed.


The single male lamb without blemish is a commanded sacrifice on only two set apart feast dates. One being the Passover lamb and the other being, the Wave Offering lamb.


Hence the slain lamb rather than the Lion of Judah
 
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AFrazier

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No it wasn't...it is the 15th, the 1st day of unleavened after sunset on the 14th (which is actually already the 15th). The lambs were killed on the 14th.
So you're saying there was leaven on the 14th when the lamb is sacrificed?
 
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AFrazier

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So your days begin on the 14th and end on the 20th...not the 15th to the 21st? Leviticus 23:6
So what day in your scenario is the wave sheaf offered? On the morning of the day after the weekly Sabbath (Sunday) or the day after the 15th (the 16th)??
You and I discussed the waving of the sheaf. You believe it is following the weekly Sabbath. I hold to the historically documented position that it was on the 16th, per Josephus and the Talmud.
 
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AFrazier

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Petty semantics? He proposed what you are repeating long before you were born, so yes, you agree with him.
Yes, it's petty semantics. To say that he agrees with me is to say that he and I are in agreement. That's what I meant. You know that's what I meant. And you commented on it and turned it around just to be petty. Don't insult my intelligence by denying it.
 
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