Do you really believe that faith produces works?

Friedrich Rubinstein · Jan 1, 2021

HIM said:
Rom 10:6 ......, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ (word) down from above: )
Rom 10:7 Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ (word) again from the dead.)
Rom 10:8 But what saith it? The word (Christ) is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;

Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

What exactly are you trying to tell me with those verses?

HIM · Jan 1, 2021

I’ll be glad to explain why They were posted. But please tell me what you say first.

Friedrich Rubinstein · Jan 1, 2021

HIM said:
I’ll be glad to explain why They were posted. But please tell me what you say first.

I don't see how the verses you quoted are related to my comment that you replied to.

5thKingdom · Jan 1, 2021

Butterball1 said:
1) there is not a single example in the NT of God saving a person who rebelled against God and would not obey.

Why did you NOT address the verse I gave you?
Romans 3:10 says that NO MAN will ever "seek God"
or do any good... no, not even ONE. The ONLY people who
ever repent are those God has regenerated. You can ignore
what the Bible says.. but that does not negate the Truth.
Let's TRY AGAIN to see if you can harmonize what the
BIBLE says into your theories:

------------ from post #117 --------------

Look, the Bible is very clear on this matter.
The ONLY people who will "believe" or "obey" are those
who God has regenerated... based ONLY on His Good Pleasure
and NOT on anything they would do... Otherwise NO MAN
(no, not even one) will ever "seek God"
or do anything "good" (like believe or obey).

Repentance (obedience) is always the RESULT of regeneration
and never the CAUSE... otherwise you preach a "works gospel"
or a "boaster's gospel" where MEN save themselves.

Rom 3:10-12
As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
There is none that understandeth, there is none that
seeketh after God. They are all gone out of the way,
they are together become unprofitable; there is none
that doeth good, no, not one.

The Bible declares (in both the OT and NT) that un-regenerated
men will NEVER "seek God" and NEVER "doeth good"..
(believe or obey) No, not even one of them.

(1) That means you have to HARMONIZE your "theory"
to not contradict this Bible Truth before you can even pretend
to understand the Gospel of the Bible.

2)
Rom 5:1-----------faith>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>justifies
James 2:24-------works>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>justify

Of course you understand nothing.
WHERE does that "faith" come from?
It is a GIFT of God to who He "chooses" or "elects"
the Bible NEVER teaches that "faith" is produced by men who
are NOT regenerated.... and you embarrass yourself pretending
otherwise.

Secondly... in YOUR #2 why did you IGNORE everything
in MY #2... you cannot be taken seriously when you reject
or intentionally IGNORE the Scriptures that contradict your theory.
Let's TRY AGAIN to see if you can harmonize what the
Bible says into your theories:

------- from post #117 -------------------

Moreover, JESUS explained that NO MAN can come to Him
unless the Father first "draw them" [John 6:44] and ALL MEN
the Father draws "shall come" to Him [John 6:37] and He will
lose NONE of them.

You pretend that SOME MEN can come,
when JESUS says that NO MAN can come.
Either you are wrong... or Jesus is a LIAR.

(2) That means you have to HARMONIZE your "theory"
to not contradict this Bible Truth before you can even pretend
to understand the Gospel of the Bible.

Calvinsts cannot get around this simple fact...

Why in the world are you talking about Calvin?
I never said a word about Calvin... I gave you SCRIPTURES
that were written 1500 years before Calvin was born. You are
simply constructing a STRAWMAN to knock down. That shows
that you cannot understand the ISSUE being discussed or you
do understand and do not have the intellectual honesty of
addressing the ISSUE, and must DEFLECT to creating
a STRAWMAN to argue. Get real.

3)
regeneration, the new birth, occurs when one is water baptized (born of water John 3:5).

Why, in YOUR #3 do you completely IGNORE what was written
in MY #3... obviously because it contradicts your theories and
you cannot DEAL WITH SCRIPTURE. How can you expect me
to ever take you seriously when you IGNORE what I say and
DEFLECT to a different issue?

BTW... water baptism never saved anybody... it was just an
outward "sign" of the baptism of the Holy Spirit (within) when
a man is regenerated or "washed" of his sins... it can save men
no more than circumcision saves men. You preach a "works gospel"
which is just heresy. Which is obviously wrong since MOST MEN
who receive water baptism are not saved "wheat" in the church
but unsaved "tares" in the church - or depart from the church.

Let's TRY AGAIN to see if you can provide a RESPONSE to
MY #3 in YOUR #3... instead of deflecting to a "works gospel"
heresy which is easily proven wrong in both Scripture and history.

--------------- from post #117 ------------------

You pretend that SOME MEN who are given will NOT COME...
when JESUS says ALL MEN given to Him SHALL COME.
Either you are wrong... or Jesus was just a LIAR.

(3) That means you have to HARMONIZE your "theory"
to not contradict this Bible Truth before you can even pretend
to understand the Gospel of the Bible.

3)
you misunderstand Paul in Rom 3 when Paul said none do good, none seek God. How do you reconcile none seek God when there were those who sought after God...

First of all (as I already explained to you) Paul was quoting from
the OT (that is what it means to say "it is written"). Secondly,
the Gospel of the Bible is that NO MAN will "seek God" or do
any good (like repent or obey) until AFTER regeneration.

If you are just going to REJECT or IGNORE the SCRIPTURES below,
then do not even PRETEND that you are preaching the Gospel of
the Bible. Just admit you are preaching YOUR OWN "gospel".

Rom 3:10-12
As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
There is none that understandeth, there is none that
seeketh after God. They are all gone out of the way,
they are together become unprofitable; there is none
that doeth good, no, not one.

Psa 14:2-3
The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men,
to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God.
They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy:
there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

Psa 53:2-3
God looked down from heaven upon the children of men,
to see if there were any that did understand, that did seek God.
Every one of them is gone back: they are altogether become filthy;
there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

4)
I do not see where you proved me wrong when I said God foresaw something in Jacob that He did not in Esau....

Then you need to READ the text again carefully.
It is not ME that "proves you wrong"... it is SCRIPTURE that
contradicts your theory and, therefore, "proves you wrong".
Let's TRY AGAIN to address my response in #4

--------- from post #117 -----------

You pretend SOME MEN God "draws" can be LOST...
when JESUS says NONE of them can ever be LOST
Either you are wrong... or Jesus is a LIAR.

(4) That means you have to HARMONIZE your "theory"
to not contradict this Bible Truth before you can even pretend
to understand the Gospel of the Bible.

5)
John 3:18 Jesus said those who will not obey by believing will not be saved. Not beleiving is a choice man makes for himself...

First, we have already COVERED your heresy in #1 AND #2
AND #3 AND #4... harmonize your theories with those points
BEFORE you can be taken seriously and BEFORE you move on
to other theories that BUILD upon your previous heresy.

Secondly, you did not even ADDRESS my words in#5
(in YOUR #5)... LETS TRY AGAIN. Here was MY comment
in #5.

------- from post #117 -----------

No, we do not see that at all... you ADDED your "interpretation"
to the Text. The Text is clear when it reveals that God had no mercy
upon Pharaoh because he was CREATED to be hardened and
NOT OBEY in order to show the power of God.

Rom 9:17
For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose
have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee,
and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

You say God did not have mercy on Pharaoh because he chose
to not obey... when GOD SAYS he CREATED Pharaoh to be
HARDENED, to show His Great Power and to demonstrate
that He shows MERCY on who HE CHOOSES and
He HARDENS whom HE DECIDES to HARDEN.

(5) That means you have to HARMONIZE your "theory"
to not contradict this Bible Truth before you can even pretend
to understand the Gospel of the Bible.

6)
the Bible does teach "synergism" for it clearly shows man has a role in his own salvation:
-save yourselves Acts 2:40
-save thyself 1 Timothy 4:16
-cleanse ourselves 2 Corinthians 7:1
-keep yourselves in the love of God Jude 1:21
-you purified your soul 1 Peter 1:22

First, the Bible ONLY teaches synergism when you REJECT
and IGNORE all RELATED verses that teach men CANNOT
"save themselves"... they cannot even "seek God" before
they are regenerated (see #1 and #2 and #3 and #4 above)

The FIRST RULE in Bible study is that you cannot even know the
CONTEXT of a verse (all the verses you cited above) unless/until
you HARMONIZE those verses with ALL RELATED Scripture.

So... for an example to help you "see".
The Bible COMMANDS ALL MEN to "repent". However, the Bible
also teaches that NO MAN can "repent" until AFTER they are
regenerated. The Gospel is NONSENSE to "natural men"
who are born spiritually DEAD and slaves to Satan.

Scripture is very clear... not only can "natural men" not repent,
they cannot even "seek God". Why do you REJECT and IGNORE
Scriptures (that contradict your heresy)?

You have decided to accept the verses you LIKE and reject
or intentionally ignore the verses you do not LIKE because
they contradict your theory. Therefore, you are NOT following
the Gospel of the Bible (which includes ALL Scripture) you are
only designing your OWN "gospel" (heresy) based on SELECTED
verses.

Secondly... once again you have decided to IGNORE my comments
and the SCRIPTURE I provided in #6... so LETS TRY THIS AGAIN,
see if you can HARMONIZE the Scriptures in my #6 into your
"theories"... because, if you cannot (and you cannot) then
you have already PROVEN your theories are not Biblical
and, therefore, heresy.

--------------- from post # 177 ------------

You teach it is MAN that decides to OBEY God but God insists
that HE is the one who "chooses" or "elects" WHO will receive
His mercy... so that they CAN believe and obey. And whoever
He does NOT "elect" can NEVER believe or obey.

Again, the Bible teaches that (real) repentance is the RESULT
of regeneration... and never the CAUSE.

Rom 9:15
For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

(6) That means you have to HARMONIZE your "theory"
to not contradict this Bible Truth before you can even pretend
to understand the Gospel of the Bible.

These are just some examples of man "saving himself" thereby having a role in his own salvation.

You are hilarious.
You cannot show verses of men AFTER regeneration and then
PRETEND it applies to men BEFORE regeneration. You only
embarrass yourself when you do this. I wonder why
you cannot SEE that reality?

Remember, JESUS explained that some men were NEVER MEANT
to "perceive" or "understand" the Gospel or "be converted" or
to "have their sins forgiven"... those men (like you) cannot SEE
what the Gospel teaches. [Mark 4:12]

7)
Romans 9:17 "For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth."

This verse says NOTHING AT ALL about God raising Pharaoh up to make Pharaoh disobey God against his will. Calvinists read that idea into the verse. It says God raised Pharaoh up to:
1) shew My power in thee and
2) My name might be declared throughout all the earth.

First... do you not realize how ridiculous you are when you
actually QUOTE Romans 9 which says "Even for this purpose
have I raised thee up"... and then you say the verse says
NOTHING AT ALL about God raising Pharaoh up?
How embarrassing.

Second... do you not realize how ridiculous you are when you
actually QUOTE Romans 9 which says "that I might shew
MY POWER in thee, and that MY NAME be declared throughout
the land"... and then you say the verse says NOTHING AT ALL
about God's name being declared throughout the land.
How embarrassing.

Thirdly, why do you say "Calvinists read that idea into the verse"
when (a) we are not even talking about Calvinists... that is just
your STRAWMAN. We are talking about SCRIPTURE and (b) the
Scripture could not be more clear, God did "raise Pharaoh up"
to show HIS POWER (by overcoming Pharaoh) and so HIS NAME
"would be declared throughout the land" (for destroying all
of Pharaoh's plans)

Finally... why does your #7 not even address ANYTHING included
in MY #7. LETS TRY THIS AGAIN. Here is my #7, address what
I have written instead of DEFLECTING to a different subject.

------------- from post #117 -------------

You teach that God chose Jacob and not Esau based on KNOWING
what (good works) they would do. However GOD SAYS that the
"election" of Jacob and not Esau was NOT BASED ON ANY WORK
they would do... but only on God's own good pleasure.

Rom 9:11
(For the children being not yet born, neither having done
any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election
might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth.

Notice the words "purpose of God according to election"...
those WORDS have a MEANING which is the exact opposite
of what you teach. If you are teaching the exact opposite of
the Word of God... then you have already PROVEN that your
theories are not Biblical, and therefore, just heresy

(7) That means you have to HARMONIZE your "theory"
to not contradict this Bible Truth before you can even pretend
to understand the Gospel of the Bible.

continued below

5thKingdom · Jan 1, 2021

Butterball1 said:
7)
So it always remained within Pharaoh's free will as to how God would accomplish these two things.

That is just hilarious. You actually PRETEND that the WILL of
Pharaoh was MORE POWERFUL than the WILL OF GOD.
I honestly do not understand how you could ever say
such nonsense with a straight face.

LOL... the thing CREATED is more powerful than his CREATOR.
That is just hilarious. I could not make that heresy up if I tried.

--------------

Now, I notice that you did not even ADDRESS my #8 or #9
or #10. Why is that?

#8 has to do with God's salvation plan of "election" and
proves that the Gospel of the Bible is monergism and your
heresy of synergism contradicts the Word of God.

#9 has to do with the fact that some men were NEVER MEANT
to "perceive" or "understand" the Gospel or "be converted" or
"have their sins forgiven"... obviously THIS TRUTH ALONE
immediately DESTROYS your synergistic heresy of some
"free will" offer to all men

#10 has to do with the fact that God CREATED some men
to be "vessels of mercy" (saved) and God CREATED other men
to be "vessels of wrath" (unsaved)... Again, THIS TRUTH ALONE
immediately DESTROYS your synergistic heresy of some kind
of "free will" offer to all men.

So LETS TRY THIS AGAIN... how about you address the
SCRIPTURES teaching that some men were NEVER MEANT
to have their "sins forgiven" and some men were CREATED
to be "vessels of wrath".

------------ from post #117 -------------

You preach the COMMON heresy of synergism, where MAN does
some "good work" and God SEES (or Foreknows) that good work
and BECAUSE of that work of man... God "elects" to save him.

However, that is the exact OPPOSITE of what the Scripture says,
that God "elects" people based ONLY on His Good Pleasure and
NOT because of anything they would do during their lifetime.

Eph 1:4-5
According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation
of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him
in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children
by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

Joh 1:13
Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh,
nor of the will of man, but of God.

Rom 9:16
So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth,
but of God that sheweth mercy

Rom 9:11
(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any
good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election
might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth

Eph 2:8-9
For by grace are ye saved through faith;
and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Not of works, lest any man should boast.

(8) That means you have to HARMONIZE your "theory"
to not contradict this Bible Truth before you can even pretend
to understand the Gospel of the Bible.

Your false "gospel" of synergism is EASILY refuted, not only by
the verses above (which contradict your theory), but by MANY
other passages. I will only focus on two (2) of them.

(a) Jesus clearly taught that some men (the elect) are GIVEN
the understanding of the Gospel [Mark 4:11] while other men
were NEVER MEANT to "perceive" or "understand" the Gospel,
or "be forgiven" or "have their sins forgiven" [Mark 4:12]

Since JESUS declares some men were NEVER MEANT to ever
"be converted" or "have their sins forgiven" that shows your
theory that salvation is due to some good work that men decide
to do... is just "another gospel" or pure heresy... and the Bible
PROMISES those preaching "another Gospel" and/or those
preaching HERESY "shall not enter the Kingdom of God"
[Gal 1:8-9 and 5:20]

(9) That means you have to HARMONIZE your "theory"
to not contradict this Bible Truth before you can even pretend
to understand the Gospel of the Bible.

(b) The Bible clearly teaches that God CREATES some men to be
"vessels of mercy" [saved] while He CREATES other men to be
"vessels of wrath" [unsaved] See Romans 9:19-23

Therefore, not only does this Truth destroy your "theory" it PROVES
that SOME men are CREATED to be "chosen" or "elect", while
others are CREATED to remain spiritually DEAD, and slaves in
Satan's "Kingdom of Babylon"... where they are forever lost.
Again we see salvation by "election" has NOTHING to do
with any "good work" that man would do in his lifetime.

(10) That means you have to HARMONIZE your "theory"
to not contradict this Bible Truth before you can even pretend
to understand the Gospel of the Bible.

Now, I understand the argument you have made... that men are
"elected" or "chosen" based on God "foreknowing" they would
do some "good work" (believe or obey, etc) however, these
VERSES above all CONTRADICT your theory.

Since we know absolutely that there are NO CONTRADICTIONS
in the Word of God.... in order to pretend your theories are correct
you will FIRST NEED to harmonize all the information above into
those theories.

But, of course, you cannot do that because the verses above
directly CONTRADICT your theories. Therefore, in order for you
to continue to believe/preach your theories (and for anyone else
to ever believe your theories) ALL THE VERSES ABOVE must be
rejected or intentionally ignored.

So... you have a choice. Either amend your theories until they
harmonize with all the passages above - including those teaching
some men were NEVER MEANT to be saved... and God CREATED
some men to be "vessels of wrath" (unsaved) and other men
to be "vessels of mercy" (saved). Or preach false doctrines
(heresies) KNOWING they contradict MANY other passages.

If you CANNOT or WILL NOT harmonize all the Scriptures above
then you demonstrate that your theories are NOT BIBLICAL and
you are well aware they are heresy (contradicting many verses)...
but you would rather preach heresy than change your errors. to
harmonize with ALL SCRIPTURES. It really is as simple as that.

Jim

Butterball1 · Jan 2, 2021

5thKingdom said:
Why did you NOT address the verse I gave you?
Romans 3:10 says that NO MAN will ever "seek God"
or do any good... no, not even ONE. The ONLY people who
ever repent are those God has regenerated. You can ignore
what the Bible says.. but that does not negate the Truth.
Let's TRY AGAIN to see if you can harmonize what the
BIBLE says into your theories:

------------ from post #117 --------------

Look, the Bible is very clear on this matter.
The ONLY people who will "believe" or "obey" are those
who God has regenerated... based ONLY on His Good Pleasure
and NOT on anything they would do... Otherwise NO MAN
(no, not even one) will ever "seek God"
or do anything "good" (like believe or obey).

You are reading Calvinism into Romans 3 when it is not there. I gave you verses that showed people who sought the Lord, verse that show men are commanded to seek the Lord and gave a verse showing a lost man Cornelius who did good. Instead of reconciling what Paul said you just brushed it off for you do not have an answer. Explain to us why Paul said "none are righteous" Romans 3:10 when the context Paul quotes that from in Psalms speaks of there being those who are righteous Psalms 14:5.

5thKingdom said:
Repentance (obedience) is always the RESULT of regeneration
and never the CAUSE... otherwise you preach a "works gospel"
or a "boaster's gospel" where MEN save themselves.

Rom 3:10-12
As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
There is none that understandeth, there is none that
seeketh after God. They are all gone out of the way,
they are together become unprofitable; there is none
that doeth good, no, not one.

The Bible declares (in both the OT and NT) that un-regenerated
men will NEVER "seek God" and NEVER "doeth good"..
(believe or obey) No, not even one of them.

(1) That means you have to HARMONIZE your "theory"
to not contradict this Bible Truth before you can even pretend
to understand the Gospel of the Bible.

I gave you verses of those that did seek after God. Acts 17:26-27 Paul says anyone can seek God and find Him.

Furthermore, if one is only able to seek God if God has to FIRST act upon man to enable man to seek GOd, then:
--those that do not, cannot seek God are God's culpability for God's failure to 'regenerate" them. Yet God is not an unjust, unloving ogre that requires man to seek Him but then prevents men from seeking Him and then punishes those men for not seeking Him.
--God would be a respecter of persons by regenerating some so they could seek Him and not others. But God is not such a respecter of persons, Acts 10:34-35
--not a single verse in the BIble says man is born totally depraved therefore unable, unwiling to seek God. Such is a fabrication of Calvinism. God shows us that Cain had the ability to choose to do well or choose to not do well, Genesis 4:7. He was not locked in to being able to doing only 'not well' due to some fake depraved nature Calvinists have made up. Those in Acts 2 Peter preached to were lost, "unregenerated" yet in their lost state they were willing and able to hear Peter, understand what he preached, be pricked in their heart, beleive what he said and obey his command to repent and be baptized all while spiritually dead. Cornelius was lost yet able to to well, pray to God. Lydia was lost but was a worshipper of God.[/quote]

Butterball1 · Jan 2, 2021

5thKingdom said:
Of course you understand nothing.
WHERE does that "faith" come from?
It is a GIFT of God to who He "chooses" or "elects"
the Bible NEVER teaches that "faith" is produced by men who
are NOT regenerated.... and you embarrass yourself pretending
otherwise.

Romans 10:9 "That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved."
Romans 10:17 "So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God."

Faith is what is developed in one's heart upon hearing the word of God. So it is not possible for one to have faith separate and apart from the word of God and hearing of that word.

Therefore faith is a gift only in the sense that God has granted men the opportunity to develop faith in their hearts and be saved. Faith cannot be a gift in the sense that a man can only have faith if God gives it to him. Such makes God a respeceter of persons in giving faith to one man and not another. God become s culpable for the faithless.

Therefore faith is not a gift of God in the sense that one cannot have faith unless God "gives" it to him.

Since God has no culpability, responsibility for those that are faithless (lost) then such an idea should be rejected.

1) From the context of John 3 it is apparent Nicodemus had not been born again?
Was this God's fault or Nicodemus' fault? It was Nicodemus' fault (Lk 7:30) for failing to obey God in submitting to John's baptism....failure of belief on the part of Nicodemus not a failure of God in gifting him belief..

2) From Matt 28:6, Jesus condemned those disciples for having "little faith".
Was this God's fault or their own fault for having insufficient faith? Their own fault, hence Jesus condemned them for their failure and did not condemn God for God was not culpability for failing to give them sufficient faith. If they could only have faith if it were "gifted" to them by God, then Jesus criticism should have been directed to God and His failure for NOT giving them sufficient faith they needed.

3) Exodus 4:1-9 God instructed Moses to show the people signs for the purpose of inducing a belief in those people. If belief is possible only if God 'gifts' one belief....God would know that. Then it would be pointless and senseless on the part of God to attempt to induce a belief by those signs in those people knowing already it would be impossible for them to believe the first sign much less believe the second or third sign. The context says "That they may believe" and " if they will not believe" clearly showing it was up to man to believe thereby leaving man culpable and responsible for not believing.

1 Cor 14:22 "Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not:..." Again, a miraculous sign was NOT for believers, but miraculous signs were directed at UNBELIEVERS in order to get them to believe. Again, if belief were only possible if God 'gifts' one belief then God would know that, then these signs would serve no purpose at all, they were a waste of time, pointless and useless.

John 20:30-31 John was speaking about the miracles Christ had performed and John wrote some of those miracles down and said " But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name." The verb "are written" is perfect tense denoting an act done in the past that has a continuing effect. In other words, John wrote those signs down that were performed in the past so they would continue to induce a belief in people through time, even until today. Therefore those miracles do not have to be repeated today nor does God have to "zap" belief into people. All people have to do is read what John wrote and those written down words are sufficient enough to induce a belief in men, even today. Belief is not miraculously 'zapped' into men today separate from their volition or apart from God's written word.

Again, it would be those written down signs that would induce belief in men when men read them and not a miraculously zapping of belief into men by God apart from men reading/hearing the written word.

4) Acts 16:31 men have been commanded to believe, with the imperative logically implying both ability and responsibility/accountability. It would be nothing but a bad commentary on the very good, just nature and character of God to say God holds men accountable for what man cannot possibly do. It would be like holding a man born without legs accountable for not walking.

5) Romans 10:9,17, faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God. The Bible does not contradict itself when it comes to how men get faith, men develop faith in their heart upon hearing the word. Nowhere is faith said to be 'zapped' into men capriciously, unconditionally, apart from man's volition nor apart from man hearing the word of God. Heb 11:4, Abel's sacrifice was more excellent than Cain's. Why? Abel's sacrifice was "by faith". Since faith comes by hearing the word of God, we can know then that the word of God instructed them on the acceptable type of sacrifice God wanted. Abel by faith did as God said where Cain did not. There was no faith "zapped' into Abel, Abel was not randomly chosen over Cain to have faith nor was Abel given faith against his will or apart from the word of God. Therefore Cain, not God, was culpable for failing to have the necessary appropriate faith in offering the acceptable sacrifice.

In other words, God required by faith a particular sacrifice to be offered. God does not miraculously zap Cain with faith, therefore Cain cannot make this appropriate sacrifice. Therfore Cain is condemend by God for failing to make the appropriate sacrifice because God refused to give him the necessary faith Cain needed to do so. Puts God in bad light.

6) 1 John 4:1 if a man has the ability to believe a false teaching when preached, then man could use that exact same ability to believe the truth of God when preached to him.

7) Numbers 14:11 "And the LORD said unto Moses, How long will this people provoke me? and how long will it be ere they believe me, for all the signs which I have shewed among them?" This is a very curious verse if men can only possibly believe if God 'zaps' them with belief. John Calvin says of this verse "God remonstrates with respect to their indomitable obstinacy." It appears Calvin understood their lack of belief was due to their own "obstinacy" and not a failure on the part of God in having not "gifted" them belief.

CALVINIST John Gill says of this verse "unbelief was a sin they had often and long been guilty of, and which greatly prevailed among them, and was the root of all their murmurings, mutiny, and rebellion; and what was highly provoking to the Lord, since they ought to have believed him, and that he was able to make good, and would make good his promises to them:"

Gill appears to be showing they had the ability and accountability to believe by saying "they ought to have believed him". Gill says these people's unbelief was "provoking the Lord". If they could only possibly have belief if God gave belief to them, then we have God provoking Himself, God causing His own annoyance and anger for not 'zapping' them with belief.

8) Matt 9:28-30 "And when he was come into the house, the blind men came to him: and Jesus saith unto them, Believe ye that I am able to do this? They said unto him, Yea, Lord. Then touched he their eyes, saying, According to your faith be it unto you. And their eyes were opened; ....". Why would Jesus test these men's faith if God is the one who gave them faith? Was Jesus tempting the faith God "gifted" these men? Can the faith God "gives" ever fail that man?

9) Matt 21:32 "For John came unto you in the way of righteousness, and ye believed him not: but the publicans and the harlots believed him: and ye, when ye had seen it, repented not afterward, that ye might believe him."
Their lack of belief was not due to a failure on God's part in not gifting them belief but their fault for not repenting that ye might believe. All they need to do in order for them to believe was to repent and not needing a miraculous "zapping" from God. Again, how can Jesus rightly justly condemn these people for unbelief when God is solely in control of who will or will not believe?

10) Mark 9:23 Then Jesus said ...If you are able to believe? All things are possible for the one who believes....
Again, if it is only possible for men to believe if God 'gifts' one belief...Christ would know that. Why would Christ ask this man about his ability to believe when Christ would already know he would not have the ability?

CALVINIST John Gill says of this verse " Christ puts an "if" on the faith of the man; and tacitly suggests, that power was not wanting in himself, but faith in him; and should that cure not be performed, it would not be owing to any inability in him, but to his own incredulity. " It appears Gill is saying this man was not wanting of the ability (power) in himself to believe, but his lack of belief was due to his own "incredulity"...being unwilling to believe something.

11) Rom 10:10 "For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation." Belief is something man forms/develops within his own heart, and not something miraculously zapped into him by God.

Butterball1 · Jan 2, 2021

5thKingdom said:
Moreover, JESUS explained that NO MAN can come to Him
unless the Father first "draw them" [John 6:44] and ALL MEN
the Father draws "shall come" to Him [John 6:37] and He will
lose NONE of them.

You pretend that SOME MEN can come,
when JESUS says that NO MAN can come.
Either you are wrong... or Jesus is a LIAR.

Again, you cite verses, ASSUME ideas of Calvinism into verses without any explanantion or proof being given.

First, HOW does God draw men?

John 6:44-45 "No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me."

God's drawing is done by the word, when men are "taught" "heard" and "learned" them men "cometh unto Me" of their own free will.
Hence God's drawing is done by intellect in teaching men and those taught, hear and learn respond by free will in coming to Christ. No dragging one to Christ apart from the word being taught, heard and learned nor against man's free will. If he drawing were by force against man's will then all men universally would be saved, John 12:32

The drawing is a loving pull providing benefits to those who respond to that drawing in coming to Christ. Benefits that can only be found in Christ.
Jeremiah 31:3 "The LORD hath appeared of old unto me, saying, Yea, I have loved thee with an everlasting love: therefore with lovingkindness have I drawn thee."
Hence God's drawing is by intellect and emotion through God's word when man is taught, hears and learns it. Not by compulsion apart from the word, apart from man hearing that word, apart from man's free will. Simply put God draws (by His word) men come (of their own free will having been taught).

Matthew 11:28 Jesus COMMANDED men to "come unto Me" with the imperative implying ability and accountability on the part of man in coming to Christ. Senseless, pointless to command men to come to Christ if they are totally unable to do so but instead have to be dragged to Christ against their will.

==============================

John 6:37 "All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out."

God does not just randomly unconditionally give men to Christ. This verse does not mention belief as Jn 6:35 does, but those who develop belief are the one's God gives to Christ. God's giving to Christ is not independant of men having faith nor apart from the word being taught to men.
And those that continue to "cometh" (present tense) to Christ, Christ will not cast them out. Those that cast aside their faith and quit coming to Christ will be lost, cast out.

Calvinism ASSUMES that the giving the Father does was done before the world began, unconditionally apart from man being taught the word and believing it. Yet nothing in the text supports that Calvinist idea.

(1) Present tense verbs

The verb "giveth" is present tense showing an action that is presently ongoing, in progress meaning at the time John wrote verse 37 there were men being given at that very time and men being given today even. So the given is not once and for all done thing before the world began. "The verb “gives” (didosin) is a present tense form, indicating action in progress; the Father, at that very time, was in the process of giving certain ones to his Son.This passage cannot possibly be employed, then, to establish a “done-deal” gift back in pre-world eternity.As Reynolds noted, “‘The giving’ implies a present activity of grace, not a foregone conclusion” (17, p. 201)"
Does John 6:37 Teach Calvinist "Predestination"?

(2) in what sense are men "given" to Christ?
"The terms “gift” and “given” are frequently employed idiomatically in the Scriptures to denote divine favor as expressed in Heaven’s redemptive work on man’s behalf — without there being any inclination of an “unconditional election.”

For example, David prophesied that Jehovah would “give” the “nations” (Gentiles) to Christ as an inheritance (Psa. 2:8; cf. Acts 4:25-26). Surely no one will contend that all Gentiles were unconditionally predestined to salvation irrespective of their response to divine truth.Even the most cursory examination of the book of Acts, from chapter 10 onward, reveals that the Gentiles were admitted into redemptive favor by yielding to the requirements of the gospel.Salvation was not as a consequence of an eternal decree independent of human obedience (cf. Acts 10:34-35,43; 11:14; 15:8-9; 1 Pet. 1:22-23)"
Does John 6:37 Teach Calvinist "Predestination"?

(3)
What relationship is there between the “giving” and the “coming” in John 6:37?

There is a significant connection.The “giving” represents what God has provided in the great plan of human salvation; the “coming” represents the acceptation of that plan as manifested in the sinner’s obedience.

The subsequent context affords a wonderful illustration of this — with slightly different imagery, but with corresponding thought. Note the language of verses 44-45:

“No man can come to me, except the Father that sent me draw him: and I will raise him up in the last day. It is written in the prophets, And they shall all be taught of God. Every one who has heard from the Father, and has learned, comes unto me.”

In this passage, God’s “drawing” is parallel to his “giving” of verse 37.And yet, clearly in vv. 44-45 the drawing is accomplished by hearing his word, learning, and coming to the Lord.
Jehovah provides the redemptive information, but humanity must access it. By a comparison of these passages, therefore, one may logically conclude that this is how men are “given” to Christ as well.
As Bloomfield once observed, “The term [gives] therefore (here and at ver. 39 and 65) must signify something compatible with the free agency of man” (I, p. 363).

When former Baptist minister Robert Shank issued his book, Life in the Son, it produced shock waves among Calvinists. Professor William Adams of the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary characterized the book as “one of the most arresting and disturbing books” he had ever read (p. xiii). In this instructive volume, Shank has a special Appendix, “Whom Does the Father Give to Jesus?” in which he discusses this very passage.

Therein the author fires this parting blast:

“There is nothing about God’s gift of believers to be the heritage of the Son who died for them which somehow transforms the Gospel’s ‘whosoever will’ into a ‘whosoever must’ and a ‘most of you shan’t. ‘There is nothing about it which binds men in the strait jacket of an antecedent decree of positive unconditional election and reprobation, while insisting that they are ’free’” (p. 339)."

(4) What is meant by "I will in no wise cast out"?

"Some allege it suggests the dogma of the impossibility of apostasy, i.e., that no one “given” to Christ in the eternal scheme of things could ever be lost.The child of God, therefore, can never fall from grace — or so it is claimed.

The passage does not even remotely suggest this pernicious doctrine. Even Albert Barnes, who subscribed to the Calvinistic doctrine of the impossibility of apostasy (see his comment at Matthew 7:23), conceded the following, with reference to John 6:37b. “This expression does not refer to the doctrine of perseverance of the saints, but to the fact that Jesus will not reject or refuse any sinner who comes to him” (pp. 246-247).

This admission, combined with the scriptural declarations that God wants all men to be saved (1 Tim. 2:4; 2 Pet. 3:9), and that “whosoever will” may come to Christ, are death blows to the theory that some were chosen by God for salvation, and others for damnation, before the world began. Perhaps no dogma has ever been so misguided."
Does John 6:37 Teach Calvinist "Predestination"?

"...him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out." Again, the verb cometh is present tense denoting a sustained, ongoing action. As long as one CONDITIONALLY continues to come to Christ he will not be cast out. Those that do quit coming to Christ will be refused and cast out.

Gary O' · Jan 2, 2021

Friedrich Rubinstein said:
Dead faith does not produce works. Living faith, the saving faith, does. You can say a lot, and an atheist saying "I believe in God" is an oxymoron, a contradiction in itself. Saying something doesn't make it true, and faith is more than "thinking of something to be true". To have faith in Jesus Christ means to put all your trust in him. Yes, that will have visible consequences in your life.
Someone who says "I believe" and lives as if Jesus never existed surely does not really believe.

Not sure what all was posted, but I've gotta respond.

Satan believes in God

And, in my experience, as stated ('to have faith in Jesus Christ means to put all your trust in him. Yes, that will have visible consequences in your life') faith alone does (did) bring works.....in my heart
I learned (and I'm a hard case) that I can do nothing.....nothing, without faith.
He's proven that to me, over and over, and over again

5thKingdom · Jan 2, 2021

Butterball1 said:
You are reading Calvinism into Romans 3 when it is not there.

(1) That is the TYPICAL response of all Arminians since they cannot
actually refute Romans 3:10-12 with Scripture. How sad.

I gave you verses that showed people who sought the Lord,

(2) But of course some men "seek the Lord" but ALL OF THEM
are being "drawn" by God. Or do you actually think JESUS
was LYING when He said [John 6] that NO MAN can come
to Him unless the Father first "draws them" and ALL MEN
the Father draws "shall come" to Him.

Assuming you do NOT think Jesus is a LIAR then you are
only saying that ALL MEN who seek God are those who
have already been "drawn" by God ("elected") and NONE
of them will be lost.

verse that show men are commanded to seek the Lord

(3) But of course we agree that ALL MEN are commanded to repent
and "seek God" and we are told that MOST MEN will not do so,
because they were NEVER MEANT to "be converted" or to
"have their sins forgiven"... when you are talking about
Biblical doctrines you MUST include ALL RELATED verses.
You tend to select the verses you like and ignore the rest.
Which only results in false doctrines (heresies).

and gave a verse showing a lost man Cornelius who did good.

(4) What in the world makes you think Cornelius was not "elect"?
You are reading your own presuppositions into the TEXT.

Instead of reconciling what Paul said you just brushed it off for you do not have an answer.

(5) Let's be real here. You brush of MOST of what I say and then
you build heresy upon heresy... of course I cannot take MOST
of what you say seriously since it contradicts so many verses.

But... I will answer you directly if you want to give me the verse
you think I "brushed off" and your "interpretation" of the verse.

Explain to us why Paul said "none are righteous" Romans 3:10

(6) For the same reason the SAME was said in the OT.
NO MAN (no, not even one) will ever "do good" or
"seek God" unless they are "elect" and God has
"drawn them"... this is the EXACT SAME thing that
Jesus taught [John 6] I have NO IDEA why you
think this is strange... since it is some of the most
BASIC and ESSENTIAL elements of the Gospel.

when the context Paul quotes that from in Psalms speaks of there being those who are righteous Psalms 14:5.

(7) But Paul ALSO speaks of those who are "righteous".
Your PROBLEM is that you CONFLATE those who are
"elected" or "saved" with all the "natural men" who
are not ABLE to act like the "elect".

You cannot CONFLATE those who are CREATED to be
"vessels of mercy" with those who are CREATED to be
"vessels of wrath"... or else you will remain in confusion
and darkness.

The Bible separates all men into three (3) groups:
(1) the saved "wheat" in the church sown by God
(2) the unsaved "tares" in the church sown by Satan
(3) the lost souls OUTSIDE the church (also "children of Satan"

If you cannot discern the CONTEXT of the text
(which group is in focus) then you have no hope of ever
understanding the MEANING of the passage.

Just like the OT can say NONE will "seek God" or do any "good"
Paul can also correctly say NONE will "seek God" or do any "good"
Because IN BOTH CASES the TEXT is talking about "natural man"...
this is NOT difficult to understand (unless you are an Arminian)

I gave you verses of those that did seek after God. Acts 17:26-27 Paul says anyone can seek God and find Him.

(8) No, Paul DID NOT SAY that any man or all men can "seek God"
He said men of all nations... because the Gospel was for both
Jew and Gentile. Remember, before Christ came God was
saving ONLY Jews (with few exceptions) but AFTER Christ
came God was saving Jews and Gentiles (the "world")
Jew + Gentile = "the world"

Furthermore, if one is only able to seek God if God has to FIRST act upon man to enable man to seek GOd, then:
--those that do not, cannot seek God are God's culpability for God's failure to 'regenerate" them.

(9) OK, I had to stop reading here because you start with heresy
and then try to BUILD upon that heresy.

If you think ALL MEN are able to "repent" because the Gospel
commands ALL MEN to repent... then you are just naive.

God can command ALL MEN to repent when we all know
that ALL MEN will not... and can not because some men
were NEVER MEANT to "perceive" or "understand" or
"be converted" or "have their sins forgiven" [Mark 4:12]
When men are NEVER MEANT to be saved then they clearly
are not GIVEN the ability to repent.

Remember... ALL MEN are born spiritually dead and ALL
"natural men" will REMAIN spiritually dead unless/until
God "draws" them and GIVES them everything needed...
just like Lazarus

So I cannot be bothered reading heresy upon heresy...
but God has already ANSWERED YOU directly, but
you do not want to HEAR or ACCEPT God's answer:

Rom 9:19-24
Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault?
For who hath resisted his will? Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

I will be glad to follow-up on any questions you had on
#1-#8... but you will have to deal with #9 on your own
because GOD has already answered your complaint and
I cannot answer you better than God.

You make a LOT of assumptions about people who were LOST
and "sought God"... I will remind you that ALL MEN were LOST
before God "drew them" to Himself. So you have no argument
saying someone (like Paul) was LOST and COULD NOT go to God
(when God was "drawing" him"). You just ASSUME too much
incorrectly because you interpret TEXT within the system
of Arminianism.

Here... I will say it another way that maybe you can understand.
You are very safe to believe that ALL MEN who become saved
were FIRST "drawn" by God (that is what Jesus taught in Jn 6)
And you are very safe to say NO MAN can "seek God" unless
they are FIRST "drawn" by God (again what Jesus said in Jn 6)

Jim

Butterball1 · Jan 3, 2021

5thKingdom said:
First of all (as I already explained to you) Paul was quoting from
the OT (that is what it means to say "it is written"). Secondly,
the Gospel of the Bible is that NO MAN will "seek God" or do
any good (like repent or obey) until AFTER regeneration.

If you are just going to REJECT or IGNORE the SCRIPTURES below,
then do not even PRETEND that you are preaching the Gospel of
the Bible. Just admit you are preaching YOUR OWN "gospel".

Rom 3:10-12
As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
There is none that understandeth, there is none that
seeketh after God. They are all gone out of the way,
they are together become unprofitable; there is none
that doeth good, no, not one.

Psa 14:2-3
The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men,
to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God.
They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy:
there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

Psa 53:2-3
God looked down from heaven upon the children of men,
to see if there were any that did understand, that did seek God.
Every one of them is gone back: they are altogether become filthy;
there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

Then you need to READ the text again carefully.
It is not ME that "proves you wrong"... it is SCRIPTURE that
contradicts your theory and, therefore, "proves you wrong".
Let's TRY AGAIN to address my response in #4

I already asked you to explain why Paul said "none are righteous" when in Psalms 14 where Paul took the quote Psalms 14:5 mentions those who are righteous. Hebrews 11:4 Abel was righteous, how can that be if "none are righteous"?

5thKingdom said:
You pretend SOME MEN God "draws" can be LOST...
when JESUS says NONE of them can ever be LOST
Either you are wrong... or Jesus is a LIAR.

(4) That means you have to HARMONIZE your "theory"
to not contradict this Bible Truth before you can even pretend
to understand the Gospel of the Bible.

First, we have already COVERED your heresy in #1 AND #2
AND #3 AND #4... harmonize your theories with those points
BEFORE you can be taken seriously and BEFORE you move on
to other theories that BUILD upon your previous heresy.

Secondly, you did not even ADDRESS my words in#5
(in YOUR #5)... LETS TRY AGAIN. Here was MY comment
in #5.

------- from post #117 -----------

No, we do not see that at all... you ADDED your "interpretation"
to the Text. The Text is clear when it reveals that God had no mercy
upon Pharaoh because he was CREATED to be hardened and
NOT OBEY in order to show the power of God.

Rom 9:17
For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose
have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee,
and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

You say God did not have mercy on Pharaoh because he chose
to not obey... when GOD SAYS he CREATED Pharaoh to be
HARDENED, to show His Great Power and to demonstrate
that He shows MERCY on who HE CHOOSES and
He HARDENS whom HE DECIDES to HARDEN.

(5) That means you have to HARMONIZE your "theory"
to not contradict this Bible Truth before you can even pretend
to understand the Gospel of the Bible.

First, the Bible ONLY teaches synergism when you REJECT
and IGNORE all RELATED verses that teach men CANNOT
"save themselves"... they cannot even "seek God" before
they are regenerated (see #1 and #2 and #3 and #4 above)

The FIRST RULE in Bible study is that you cannot even know the
CONTEXT of a verse (all the verses you cited above) unless/until
you HARMONIZE those verses with ALL RELATED Scripture.

So... for an example to help you "see".
The Bible COMMANDS ALL MEN to "repent". However, the Bible
also teaches that NO MAN can "repent" until AFTER they are
regenerated. The Gospel is NONSENSE to "natural men"
who are born spiritually DEAD and slaves to Satan.

I have already responded to Romans 9. Romans chapters 9-11 are very anti-Calvinism.

In Romans 9, Paul already knows God has cast off His once elect Jews (Romans 11) and Paul knew the Jews would contend that God would act unrighteously, broke promises in casting them off. In Romans 9 Paul proves using air tight logic that God acted just and righteously toward the Jews in casting off. Paul using Jacob and Esau to prove that GOd's promises are not solely based upon physical descent. Paul used Pharoah to show GOd can have mercy upon whom He will, that being a reference to the Gentiles. That GOd does not just have to save the Jews He can save the Gentiles if GOd so desires. Paul uses the potter and the clay to show how God fashions men...those that obey GOd are fashioned into vessels of honores while the disobedient are fashioned into vessels of wrath.

Romans 10 we see wht God cast the Jews off for they would not submit to the righteousness of GOd ROmans 10:3. THe JEws rebelled against God rejecting God's only begotten Son Jesus Christ. THe Jews rebelled and would not obey God in refusing to believe, confess (Romans 10:9-10), would not obey the gospel Romans 10:16.

In Romans 10:3 we can see those Jews were lost for they were doing the wrong TYPE of work. Instead of them doing the TYPE of work that would saved them (Submit/obey God's righteousness) they went about doing their OWN righteousness....they were trying to save themselves by "establishing their OWN righteousness (own traditions) rather than obey God. So we can clearly see TWO DIFFERENT TYPES OF WORKS in Romans 10:3, one work that did not save the Jews (doing their OWN righteousness) and one type of work (obeying (submitting) to God's righteousness) that would have saved those Jews......exposing the falsehoods of Calvinims faith only.

Finally in Romans 11 we see God not only cast of the once chosen, elect Jews but grafted in the once non-shosen, non-elect Gentiles. This does not fit Calvinism's false ideas of election. Not only did God cast off the Jews and grafted in the Gentiles, GOd warned these Gentiles "Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in. Well; because of unbelief they (Jews) were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off." These newly elected Gentiles if not careful could also be cut off as the Jews were. Not only is Calvinism's idea of election refuted in ROm 11 but the idea of perseverance of the Saints is also refuted.

5thKingdom · Jan 3, 2021

Butterball1 said:
I already asked you to explain why Paul said "none are righteous" when in Psalms 14 where Paul took the quote Psalms 14:5 mentions those who are righteous. Hebrews 11:4 Abel was righteous, how can that be if "none are righteous"?

But I already answered this question FOR YOU.
Do you completely IGNORE what I say, as you also
completely IGNORE the Scriptures that contradict you.

I will EXPLAIN this to you once again. Both the OT and NT
teach that (natural men) will NEVER "seek God"
(no, not even one).

And yet the Bible, both OT and NT both EXPLAIN that the men
God "draws" to Himself SHALL "seek Him"... not SOME, as
you pretend but ALL MEN God draws "shall come" [Jn 6].

Why is it that YOU are unable to understand (or accept) such
a simple and logical explanation of the DIFFERENCE between
the "natural man" (who is DEAD in sin) and the men who
God "elects" to "draw" to Himself and GIVE Grace?

Seems that you simply DO NOT WANT to hear this (Biblical)
difference between "natural men" and those "elected" to life...
since you intentionally IGNORE the Scriptures contradicting your
"theory", even when the BIBLE explains BOTH SIDES for you.

So, I cannot HELP you with that. If you want to intentionally IGNORE
what the BIBLE teaches about BOTH SIDES (the "natural man" and
the "elected" man) then that is just your problem of being unable
to "perceive" or "understand" the Gospel, as Jesus explained in
Mark 4:12 talking about men NEVER MEANT to "be converted"
or to "have their sins forgiven"... in other words, men who
were NEVER MEANT to be saved.

But, of course, Scriptures teaching some men were NEVER MEANT
to be saved is PART of the Bible you (must) intentionally IGNORE
because it immediately DESTROYS your entire synergistic heresy.
There are MANY Scriptures you must intentionally ignore.

I have already responded to Romans 9. Romans chapters 9-11 are very anti-Calvinism. In Romans 9, Paul already knows God has cast off His once elect Jews (Romans 11)...

First, which I have already EXPLAINED to you several times
that we are not talking about what is "Calvinistic" and what is
"Arminian"... we are talking about the HARMONY of Scripture.
If you cannot understand (and accept) that DIFFERENCE then
you cannot learn what the SCRIPTURES actually teach... as there
are NO CONTRADICTIONS in the Word of God.

Let me say this again so there is no confusion...
the ONLY measure of Biblical Truth is to find HARMONY
with ALL RELATED Scriptures on a particular subject. So if,
you have a contradiction between to verses you must find how
they HARMONIZE before you can present more than just some
HALF-TRUTH (also called a LIE or a HERESY)

So, as an EXAMPLE... above you mention that the BIBLE TEACHES
(in both the OT and NT) that NO MAN will ever "seek God" and yet
the same Bible also teaches that SOME MEN do actually "seek God".

Now HOW IN THE WORLD to we harmonize these two positions,
which SEEM to be in direct contradiction to each other... and yet,
we know there are NO contradictions in the Word of God.
We have two (2) options:

Option #1: Which I, and all the previous saints, have understood
is the CONTEXT of those who cannot "seek God" is "natural man"
the CONTEXT of those who DO "seek God" are those who God
"draws" to Christ, and NONE of them can ever be lost. Which
is EXACTLY what JESUS taught in John 6... and what the Bible
teaches in many other places, so we have FOUND HARMONY,
and, therefore, we have found the Biblical Truth.

So we see... by understanding the CONTEXT of a verse we are
able to (a) understand the Biblical MEANING of that verse since
(b) there are NO CONTRADICTIONS in Scripture. This is known
as the narrow way that leads Christians into eternal life and the
Bible PROMISES that FEW "Christians" (only the "wheat") will
ever find this way.

On the other hand we have Option #2: Which YOU and MANY
"Christians" follow (as they are "tares" following the BROAD WAY
that leads MANY "Christians" into destruction... in this option we
simply IGNORE all of the Scriptures that contradict our "theory".
By PRETENDING they do not exist we "see" no contradictions.
But this is only PRETENDING to ourselves and demonstrating the
"fruit" of those who are NOT "indwelt" (the "tares" in the church)
since the "fruit" of the saved "wheat" (n the church) is to find the
HARMONY of ALL RELATED Scriptures before we even pretend
to have found Biblical Truth.

and Paul knew the Jews would contend that God would act unrighteously, broke promises in casting them off. In Romans 9 Paul proves using air tight logic that God acted just and righteously toward the Jews in casting off....

Let me stop you there because you have STARTED with a heresy
and now you will attempt to BUILD additional heresies on top
of that flawed base... and PRETEND you have a doctrine
when you only have a mixture of heresy.

Romans 9 is simply a CONTINUATION of Romans 8 which is talking
(unquestionably) about INDIVIDUALS and not Jews vs Gentiles as
v 9:24 ensures that we are to understand the previous argument as
relating to INDIVIDUALS of both Jewish and Gentile descent.

Remember, there were no chapter divisions in the original TEXT
and you are INSISTING on adding a (false) division between
Romans 8 and Romans 9. You are then ADDING to the Bible.

Rom 9:24
Even us [individuals], whom he hath called,
not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

(1) God explains this reality (the CONTEXT is individuals)
of both Jewish and Gentile descent in verses 9:6-9

(2) Then God explains this reality (the CONTEXT is individuals)
of both Jewish and Gentile descent in verses 9:11 where God
EXPLAINS the very PURPOSE of "election"

(3) Then God again explains the very PURPOSE of "election"
is who HE CALLS (both Jew and Gentile) and NOT the the will
of man or the works of man in verses 9:14-16

(4) Then, in verses 9:17-18, God AGAIN explains the PURPOSE
of "election", for those not paying attention to v9:14-16

(5) Then God again explains the CONTEXT of "election" is based
on INDIVIDUALS (not nations or works) in verses 9:19-23

And, as already shown God summeizes this Truth in v9:24
which clarifies He is teaching about INDIVIDUAL Jews and
INDIVIDUAL Gentiles.

Rom 9:24
Even us, whom he hath called,
not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

BTW... if you want to LEARN about the INDIVIDUAL God "calls"
then just read Romans 8:28-31. But even YOU do not dare
to argue those verses (which are continued in Romans 9)
are talking about NATIONS and not INDIVIDUALS.

Rom 8:28-31
And we [elect] know that all things work together for good
to them that love God, to them who are the called according
to his purpose. For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate
to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. What shall we then
say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?

Jim

Butterball1 · Jan 3, 2021

5thKingdom said:
So... for an example to help you "see".
The Bible COMMANDS ALL MEN to "repent". However, the Bible
also teaches that NO MAN can "repent" until AFTER they are
regenerated. The Gospel is NONSENSE to "natural men"
who are born spiritually DEAD and slaves to Satan.

Scripture is very clear... not only can "natural men" not repent,
they cannot even "seek God". Why do you REJECT and IGNORE
Scriptures (that contradict your heresy)?

You have decided to accept the verses you LIKE and reject
or intentionally ignore the verses you do not LIKE because
they contradict your theory. Therefore, you are NOT following
the Gospel of the Bible (which includes ALL Scripture) you are
only designing your OWN "gospel" (heresy) based on SELECTED
verses.

Secondly... once again you have decided to IGNORE my comments
and the SCRIPTURE I provided in #6... so LETS TRY THIS AGAIN,
see if you can HARMONIZE the Scriptures in my #6 into your
"theories"... because, if you cannot (and you cannot) then
you have already PROVEN your theories are not Biblical
and, therefore, heresy.

--------------- from post # 177 ------------

You teach it is MAN that decides to OBEY God but God insists
that HE is the one who "chooses" or "elects" WHO will receive
His mercy... so that they CAN believe and obey. And whoever
He does NOT "elect" can NEVER believe or obey.

Again, the Bible teaches that (real) repentance is the RESULT
of regeneration... and never the CAUSE.

1 Cor 2:14 "Now the natural man receives not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him; and he cannot know them, because they are spiritually judged."

In the larger context around 1 Cor 2:14, the contrast being made is between the wisdom of God versus the wisdom of man...and NOT the Calvinistic idea of the "regenerate" vs the "unregenerate".

It is "the wisdom of the wise" (1 Corinthians 1:19) the "wisdom of the world" (1 Corinthians 1:20) "wisdom of the flesh" (1 Corinthians 1:26) versus "the wisdom of God" (1 Corinthians 1:21).

God's call of men to salvation by the gospel of Christ would be foolish to those who were too wise for such things. But Paul points out that "the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men." (1 Corinthians 1:25).

Paul goes on to write "God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;" God chose foolish things, weak and beggardly things in His plan of salvation to test the faith of men, it was by design.

In God's wisdom, He hid the plan of redemption throughout the centuries yet the widom of man could not figure it out. Paul says "Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him."

But now God's mystery has been revealed by His Spirit. In 1 Corinthians 2:11 Paul points out one man cannot know what is in the mind of another man unless that man reveals what is in his mind. Likewise, we do not know what is in the mind of God unless He reveals it to us.

God did reveal to us what is in His mind by chosing certain men (Apostles & prophets) to write the Bible, endowing those men miraculously where they would receive inspired revelations from the Holy Spirit, write those revelations down so we today can understand God's mystery...Ephesians 3:3-5 "How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words, Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ) Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;"

Now we get to 1 Cor 2:14:
"But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned."

From the context the natural man is one who only has the wisdom of this world, who judges God's plan of redemption by that worldly wisdom therefore rejects it as being foolish. The mind of God revealed through the Apostles are rejected as foolish by the natural man for he is guided by his worldly wisdom. This natural man does not have miraculous Divine access to the things of God as the inspired writers of the Bible possessed.

Yet this does NOT mean the natural man cannot understand the things of God. Paul says the things of God are "foolishness" to the natural man ("they are foolishness unto him"). The implication is that the natural man must understand the things of God before he can judged those things to be foolish. I see those that Stephen preached to as natural man, (Acts 7). They heard, understood what Stephen preached did not like what he preached (foolishness to them) therefore they killed Stephen. They did not kill Stephen because they could not understand what he said but killed for they certainly DID UNDERSTAND what he said and rejected what he preached based upon their wisdom of the world. They "received not the things of God". The phrase "receiveth not" implies a conscience, willful choice....he hears it does not like it based upon human wisdom therefore rejects it.

There is no total depravity on part of men.

From the context, the Spiritual man would be the Bible writers who were miraculously inspired to receive "words" (1 Cor 2:13) and wrote those words of inspiration down whereby when men read those words they can understand them and know the things of God......"...as I wrote afore in few words, Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)", (Eph 3:3-4).

Paul says NOTHING AT ALL about man first needing to be "regenerated" by God before he could understand. That idea is read into the passage. If men can read novels, newspapers, magazines, watch tv programs and understand what they are reading/hearing then there is no valid reason men cannot read the Bible and understand what they are reading.

Though the natural man does not have miraculous inspiration, he is not so totally depraved that he is unable to understand God's word when he reads/hears it, (Ephesians 3:4) Again, those in Acts 7 UNDERSTOOD those things of God as preached to them by Stephen and killed him because they did not like what they heard. Again, they did not kill Stephen because they could not understand what he preached. They rejected those things of God as being foolish using faulty human wisdom.

Those Peter preached to in Acts 2 were lost, spiritually dead. "unregenerate" as those in Acts 7. Even though those in Acts 2 were spiritually dead/lost they were able to be hear, understand, be pricked in the heart, believe and obey what Peter commanded them. Unlike those in Acts 7, those in Acts 2 took the "foolish" things God chose (1 Corinthians 1:27) by faith rather than reject them having judge them foolish by human wisdom.

The things of God must be "spiritually discerned". THe natural man judges the things of God by worldly wisdom, hence he rejects the things of God. But the things of God must be discerned by use of scripture that has been written down for us to read, Acts 17:11 "These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so." The natural man does not have the readiness of mind as those in Berea.

Paul was warning those Christian in Corinth about becoming this natural man, 1 Corinthians 3:1-3.
The natural man rejects inspired things revealed by the Holy Spirit, 2 Thessalonians 3:6,14.

THere is NO Calvinistic idea of the totally depraved unregenerate man in the context who is unable to understand the things of God unless God first "regenerates" him.

andrew1smith · Jan 3, 2021

Paul certainly believed faith produces works:
For sin shall no longer be your master for you are not under law but under grace(through faith) Rom6:14

FreeGrace2 · Jan 3, 2021

Spiritual Jew said:
And I'm saying that Simon never had that kind of faith at any point.

Please explain what is meant by "that kind of faith". Where does the Bible specify which "kind of faith" people have when the Bible notes that people believe?

Thanks.

I'm sure we agree that he didn't have saving faith at the time when he tried to pay to receive the Holy Spirit.

Why would one agree that Simon, who believed and was baptized along with the others wouldn't have saving faith when he wanted to buy the gift of laying on of hands to impart the Spirit to others? Do you believe in sinless perfection?

FreeGrace2 · Jan 3, 2021

5thKingdom said:
Look, the Bible is very clear on this matter.

yes, it is quite clear.

The ONLY people who will "believe" or "obey" are those
who God has regenerated... based ONLY on His Good Pleasure
and NOT on anything they would do... Otherwise NO MAN
(no, not even one) will ever "seek God"
or do anything "good" (like believe or obey).

In fact, the Bible is clear that the order is opposite of what is described here.

made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved.

Eph 2:5 equates regeneration (made alive) with salvation (you have been saved).

Eph 2:8 puts it all into perspective.
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—

The phrase "through faith" proves that faith precedes salvation, and thereby, regeneration. In order for something to be "through faith", faith must be present.

What the Bible NEVER says is that persons were "never meant to be saved", in spite of all the protestations.

5thKingdom · Jan 4, 2021

Butterball1 said:
Now we get to 1 Cor 2:14:
"But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned."

Yes, after all of your Arminian (worldly) babble...
we FINALLY get to the verse in question.

From the context the natural man is one who only has the wisdom of this world, who judges God's plan of redemption by that worldly wisdom therefore rejects it as being foolish.

For once you are correct.
However, you neglected to mention that ALL MEN are BORN
in this condition. And cannot even "SEE" the "Kingdom of God"
(much less enter into it) unless/until they are "Born Again" (regenerated).

Joh 3:3
Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

Now, you can reject the teaching that (natural) men MUST
be "born again" BEFORE they can "see" or "understand" or
"be converted" or "have their sins forgiven"... but you are
only PRETENDING that JESUS was a LIAR and the BIBLICAL
teaching that some men were NEVER MEANT to be saved.

Mar 4:12
That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; LEST AT ANY TIME they should
be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.

Jim

5thKingdom · Jan 4, 2021

FreeGrace2 said:
What the Bible NEVER says is that persons were "never meant to be saved", in spite of all the protestations.

The Bible says that some men were NEVER MEANT to "perceive"
or "understand" the Gospel... or to "be converted" or to ever
"have their sins forgiven" [Mark 4:12]

If you want to PRETEND that men who CANNOT ever
"have their sins forgiven" do not represent the men who
are NEVER MEANT to be saved... then go ahead and pretend.
But you are only pretending to yourself.

IOW... if you want to PRETEND men CAN BE SAVED
without "having their sins forgiven"... then I suggest
you pretend just as HARD as you can. But you are only
calling JESUS a LIAR. Good luck with that.

Jim

FreeGrace2 · Jan 4, 2021

FreeGrace2 said: ↑
What the Bible NEVER says is that persons were "never meant to be saved", in spite of all the protestations.

5thKingdom said:
The Bible says that some men were NEVER MEANT to "perceive" or "understand" the Gospel... or to "be converted" or to ever "have their sins forgiven" [Mark 4:12]

No, the verse does NOT say what you claim. The words "never meant" don't occur EVER in the Bible. Or show me the verse(s) that do.

If you want to PRETEND that men who CANNOT ever "have their sins forgiven" do not represent the men who are NEVER MEANT to be saved... then go ahead and pretend.

I don't have to pretend anything. But you are free to pretend whatever you think I want to pretend. The fact that Christ died for everyone means that everyone CAN have their sins forgiven.

IOW... if you want to PRETEND men CAN BE SAVED without "having their sins forgiven"...

Why would I want to pretend any one can be saved apart from forgiveness of sins? That would be absurd. Again, I don't pretend anything, unlike yourself.

Spiritual Jew · Jan 4, 2021

FreeGrace2 said:
Please explain what is meant by "that kind of faith". Where does the Bible specify which "kind of faith" people have when the Bible notes that people believe?

Thanks.

The kind of faith that saves someone is what I'm talking about. I thought that would be obvious. Even the demons believe and shudder, so I'm clearly not talking about that kind of faith. Didn't we already go over this multiple times? I'm pretty sure we did. Do you understand that there will be people on judgment day saying "Lord, Lord, didn't we do all these amazing things in your name? Doesn't that count for something?" and He will tell them He never knew them and to depart from Him.

Why would one agree that Simon, who believed and was baptized along with the others wouldn't have saving faith when he wanted to buy the gift of laying on of hands to impart the Spirit to others? Do you believe in sinless perfection?

Don't you understand that the ones who had saving faith received the Holy Spirit? Simon obviously didn't or else he wouldn't have wanted to pay for the ability to lay his hands on others to receive the Holy Spirit. That's not something that someone who had just received the Holy Spirit would have done.

Also, if Simon was saved and had received the Holy Spirit then I'm certain that Peter wouldn't have said this to him:

Acts 8:20 Peter answered: “May your money perish with you, because you thought you could buy the gift of God with money! 21 You have no part or share in this ministry, because your heart is not right before God. 22 Repent of this wickedness and pray to the Lord in the hope that he may forgive you for having such a thought in your heart. 23 For I see that you are full of bitterness and captive to sin.”

This is not something you say to someone who has just been saved and has received the Holy Spirit. Period. You can't convince me otherwise.

Do you really believe that faith produces works?

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