The book of Hebrews

HIM · Jan 3, 2021

Hebrews, stay within the text to expound.

Citizen of the Kingdom · Jan 3, 2021

Clare73 said:
Hebrews is about the new Christian Hebrews not falling away into apostasy by returning to Judaism because of the threats by their families to disinherit them for leaving Judaism.

It’s about continuing to follow God in His way that had progressed to Jesus “listen to Him, if today you hear His voice.” They were clouding their sight with things that were no longer ‘looking to Him’ but had turned back to obsolete rituals that gained them nothing. Not even an old identity that had gained them respectability and land and national recognition. Placement in the world’s economy lost and only the Father’s unknown placement of persons in the world to come to look forward to. No way of security it seemed.

(ETA- The book of Hebrews That security noted brings the forward, cause and effect momentum of chapter 6.
Basically falling into the hands of the living God chapter 10 is accountability to whom the human soul and spirit find covenantal agreement upon chapter 4 The move forward is the church of the new born chapter 12 that the church is to expound to the cloud of witnesses of all of God’s multifaceted glory wrought within His people. Ephesians 3:10, Ephesians 6:12)
ETA again ~ simplistic version ~ all things work together for good for those who love Him ~

The first argument consists of five truths demonstrating Christ's superiority over all in OT Israel:
a) the superiority of the Son's revelation over Moses' revelation, demonstrated by seven great descriptive statements about the Son-- Heb 1:2-3,
b) the superiority of the Son's revelation over angels' revelation at Sinai (1:4), see Dt 33:2; Ps 68:17;
Ac 7:38, 53; Gal 3:19--Heb 1:5-14;
c) the superiority of the Son over Moses himself in an exposition of Ps 95:7-11--Heb 3:1-11,
d) the superiority of the Son over Aaron in an exposition of Ps 110:4, because of a better priesthood--Heb 4:14-7:28, and
e) the superiority of the Son (over Moses) as mediator of a better covenant--Heb 8:1-10:39.

There is no denying the superiority of Christ over Moses, Angels, Aaron, prophets, or lawgivers as the revealer and mediator of the new covenant. No one is disputing that.

The second argument consists of five warnings (Heb 2, 4, 5, 10, 12) that to return to Judaism is to reject Christ, concluding that Christ being the only sacrifice for the remission of sin, rejecting him means
a) there remains no other sacrifice for their sin, but
b) only a fearful expectation of judgment and raging fire that will consume the enemies of God
(Heb 10:26-27).

To return to an obsolete religion is to reject Christ and His work. Christ has paid the price, accept it or not, He’s not going to die for you again because there is no need to. His work on our behalf is finished.

Now to Heb 4:1-5:

paralleling faith required to enter physical rest of Canaan with faith required to enter Sabbath-rest of God (4:1), and contrasting the response of faith to the gospel preached to us with the response of unbelief to the gospel preached to them (4:2).

"the message they heard did not benefit them, because they were not united by faith with those who listened.” The key is listening, to what are we listening for? His voice, today if you hear it, knowing what it says, join with those who obey His voice. Who is the voice from? From whom we have to do Hebrews 4:12 Indeed, the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing until it divides soul from spirit, joints from marrow; it is able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart.

4:1

- "Now we

who have believed (in Christ) enter that rest"
As faith in God's promise was required to enter physical rest in Canaan, so faith in the person and work of Christ is required to enter God's Sabbath-rest in the salvation-rest of Jesus Christ.

agree

4:2

- "For we have had the gospel preached to us, just as they did"

(have the gospel preached to them).
The gospel has been "preached to" (and "heard by") us in its substance and realities, while the gospel preached to them was in the types and shadows of the ceremonial law.
But that gospel preached to them was of no benefit because they did not combine it with faith.

Both had Christ as the living water and manna for the wilderness journey. The rock of water and the discontinued manna is not in the same substance that it was then so faith is in the spiritual application.

ETA~ I want to highlight, bold, underline the above. That is the move from shadow to substance.
Simplistic version ~ there was no attitude of gratitude ~

4:3

- NT believers have entered God's Sabbath-rest, through faith in the person and work of Christ, presented in the gospel preached to them.

agree

4:4

- Because God's work has been finished since the creation of the world, his rest is a completed reality.

4 For in one place it speaks about the seventh day as follows, “And God rested on the seventh day from all his works.” The Father’s work, the Son’s work and now the Holy Spirit’s work being done, work that we enter into which is our rest from struggling because it is within the continuation.

4:5

- "They shall never enter my rest."
The rest God calls us to enter (4:10-11) is not our rest, but his rest.

His work that edifies and quenches our thirst, still continuity with Him.

Heb 4:1-5 is about Sabbath-rest in God, through faith in the person and work of Jesus Christ, by which we enter his salvation-rest from our own work to save, which is God's own Sabbath-rest from his work.

Our own work is to abide in His presence.

Citizen of the Kingdom · Jan 3, 2021

Repentance, the act of turning from idols to God. What is the image of God to you? Are alignments with God and the word of God balanced? If so is the alignment pointing to man or God? The referenced p.o.v. is alignment of Christ with temple contents. From that is 360 vision. Hebrews 8:5

2 Corinthians 5:15 And He died for all, that those who live should no longer live for themselves, but for Him who died for them and was raised again. 16So from now on we regard no one according to the flesh. Although we once regarded Christ in this way, we do so no longer. 17Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away. Behold, the new has come!

Citizen of the Kingdom · Jan 3, 2021

The author’s view of righteousness …..

Hebrews 1:8-9
But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
Hebrews 5:13
For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.
Hebrews 7:2
To whom also Abraham gave a tenth part of all; first being by interpretation King of righteousness, and after that also King of Salem, which is, King of peace;
Hebrews 11:4,7,33
By faith Abel made a better offering to God than Cain, and he had witness through it of his righteousness, God giving his approval of his offering: and his voice still comes to us through it though he is dead. By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith. Who through faith subdued kingdoms, wrought righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions,
Hebrews 12:11
Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.

Paul’s warnings of apostasy in matters of righteousness ….

Galatians 2:16-17
Being conscious that mankind does not get righteousness by the works of the law, but through faith in Jesus Christ, we had faith in Christ Jesus, so that we might get righteousness by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the law: because by the works of the law will no flesh get righteousness. But if, while we were desiring to get righteousness through Christ, we ourselves were seen to be sinners, is Christ a servant of sin? In no way!
Galatians 2:21
I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
Galatians 3:6,8,11,21,24
Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness. And the holy Writings, seeing before the event that God would give the Gentiles righteousness by faith, gave the good news before to Abraham, saying, In you will all the nations have a blessing. Now that no man gets righteousness by the law in the eyes of God, is clear; because, The upright will be living by faith. Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law. So the law has been a servant to take us to Christ, so that we might have righteousness by faith.
Galatians 5:4-5
You are cut off from Christ, you who would have righteousness by the law; you are turned away from grace. For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.

Paul’s writings and Pricilla’s (?) were from completely different points of view. No?

Clare73 · Jan 3, 2021

HIM said:
Yes it is, But it is not the sin of returning to Judaism as you originally stated. Their Apostasy was sinning in general.

Previously addressed in the following:

Clare73 said:
Hebrews is about the
new Christian Hebrews not falling away into apostasy by returning to Judaism because of the threats by their families to disinherit them for leaving Judaism.

HIM said:
No it is not.

Clare73 said:
Heb 3:12 - Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an
evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.

That is apostasy.

HIM said:
Is this your study?

No. The warnings in respect to apostasy in the Book of Hebrews are concerning sin in general and rejecting the prodding's of the Holy Spirit. Though rejecting Christ ministry would be included, it is not specifically mentioned.

Clare73 said:
The question is, "Is it consistent with the text?"

Apostasy is not sin in general.
Heb 3:13 is sin in general. The faithful sometimes sin, but that is not apostasy.

HIM said:
Yes it is, But it is not the sin of returning to Judaism as you originally stated. Their Apostasy was sinning in general. Which was through the rejection of the Holy Spirit's prodding. Here take a look.

We are now the Temple of the Most High God, the Body of Christ, His House.

Heb 3:6 But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.

Wherefore, BECAUSE we are, we now can hear His voice, the prodding's of the Holy Spirit which directs us into the Path which God would have us take. A life in Him through Christ.

Heb 3:7 Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice,

Their hearts were hardened, they tempted God even though they seen His works for forty years.

Heb 3:8 Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness:
Heb 3:9 When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years.

Therefore He was grieved with that generation because they erred in their hearts, and they refused His way. They sinned.

Heb 3:10 Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways.

Because they erred in their hearts, in that they refused His way God caused them to roam the Desert for forty years and they were denied entering into Canaan, the land flowing with milk and honey, HIS REST.

Heb 3:11 So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.)

Unbelief is unfaithfulness. They were hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. They Believed in God, how could they not? They seen His works for forty years. The Manna from heaven, the cloud pillar by day and the fiery pillar by night. But they erred in their heart; and they refused His way choosing a evil heart of unbelief, disobedience. Hardened through the deceitfulness of their sin they departed from the Living God. THEY APOSTASIZED. They chose their life of sin rather than His Way, the Rest in which He chose for them. Take heed, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.

Heb 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
Heb 3:13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
Heb 3:14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;
Heb 3:15 While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation.

Heb 3:
v.6 - we are God's people (house--Ex 2:19; 1Pe 2:5) if we persevere. Failure to persevere reveals that we were not born again, not God's people (1Jn 2:19).
v.7-11 - "As the Holy Spirit says (speaks) in the Word of God in Ps 95:7-11--"if you hear his voice" (the call of Christ--v.6, in the gospel message)--where the psalmist warns Israel based on the example of Israel's rebellion (apostasy) at Meriba (Ps 95:8) in Ex 17:7.
v.12 - warning against apostasy--"turns away from the living God."
v.13 - "Today" is still the day of grace and opportunity to enter, but it has an expiration date.
v.14 - Hebrews share in salvation-rest of Christ if they persevere to the end, revealing that they actually were born again (not still-born), and are in Christ.
v.15 - "if you hear his voice" (the call of Christ--v.14, in the gospel message) as it says (speaks) in the Word of God in Ps 95:7-8.
v.16 - those who failed to enter Canaan (Nu 14:1-4) were the ones who had heard God's promise regarding the land and refused to believe (v.19), which is rebellion,
v.17 - sin, and
v.18 - disobedience.
v.19 - Therefore, God in his anger closed the doors of Canaan in the face of that whole generation
(Nu 14:21-35), which is the very danger these Hebrews are facing spiritually.

There is no "prodding" of the Holy Spirit in vv. 7, 15, there is "the Holy Spirit says" (speaks). . . in the Word of God, through the psalmist in Ps 95:7-11.

And there is "if you hear his voice" (the call of Christ--vv. 6, 14, in the gospel message) do not harden your hearts as you did in the rebellion (apostasy) at Meriba (Ps 95:8) in Ex 17:7, and at Canaan (3:16-18) in Nu 14:1-4, where a whole generation was shut out of God's Sabbath-rest (3:11, 4:1, 3, 10-11) from his own works (as believers cease their own works to gain salvation, and rest in the finished work of Christ on the cross).

No, the question was, Is what you posted your study?

I assume not considering how you replied. But I rather not assume. A simple yes or no please.

A happy combination of research and my exegeting.

The following quote of yours is what I questioned. If it is not your study than please cite the source.

Hebrews is about the new Christian Hebrews not falling away into apostasy by returning to Judaism because of the threats by their families to disinherit them for leaving Judaism.

The first argument consists of five truths demonstrating Christ's superiority over all in OT Israel:
a) the superiority of the Son's revelation over Moses' revelation, demonstrated by seven great descriptive statements about the Son-- Heb 1:2-3,
b) the superiority of the Son's revelation over angels' revelation at Sinai (1:4), see Dt 33:2; Ps 68:17; Ac 7:38, 53; Gal 3:19--Heb 1:5-14;
c) the superiority of the Son over Moses himself in an exposition of Ps 95:7-11--Heb 3:1-11,
d) the superiority of the Son over Aaron in an exposition of Ps 110:4, because of a better priesthood--Heb 4:14-7:28, and
e) the superiority of the Son (over Moses) as mediator of a better covenant--Heb 8:1-10:39.

The second argument consists of five warnings (Heb 2, 4, 5, 10, 12) that to return to Judaism is to reject Christ, concluding that Christ being the only sacrifice for the remission of sin, rejecting him means
a) there remains no other sacrifice for their sin, but
b) only a fearful expectation of judgment and raging fire that will consume the enemies of God (Heb 10:26-27).

Click to expand...

And No it is not all consistent with the text.

And that remains for you to textually demonstrate.

Which brings us back to where we were, and where we are after I read this post:

HIM said:
that rest which is the partaking of Christ is called the Gospel in verse 4:2

1) That rest which is the partaking of Christ is belief in the Gospel--the person and work of Jesus Christ, in verse 4:2, which partaking is salvation-rest in God's own Sabbath-rest.

HIM said:
The warnings in respect to apostasy in the Book of Hebrews are concerning
sin in general and rejecting the prodding's of the Holy Spirit.

2) The warnings in respect to apostasy in the Book of Hebrews are regarding rebellion,
which is apostasy, as their rebellion in Ex 17:7 and Nu 14:1-4.

Both my conclusions have been textually demonstrated by me in the above.

Citizen of the Kingdom · Jan 3, 2021

Clare73 said:
Previously addressed in the following:

v.6 - we are God's people (house) (Ex 2:19; 1Pe 2:5) if we persevere. Failure to persevere reveals that we were not born again, not God's people (1Jn 2:19).
v.7-11 - "As the Holy Spirit says in Scripture of Ps 95:7-11, where the psalmist warns Israel based on the example of Israel's turning away (apostasy) regarding entry into the promised land of Canaan.
v.12 - warning against apostasy--"turns away from the living God"
v.13 - "Today" is still the day of grace and opportunity to enter, but it has an expiration date
v.14 - Hebrews share in salvation-rest of Christ if they persevere to the end, revealing that they actually were born again (not still-born), and are in Christ,
v.15 - as it says in Scripture of Ps 95:7-8
v.16 - those who failed to enter Canaan were the ones who had heard God's promise regarding the land and refused to believe (v.19), which is rebellion,
v.17 - sin, and
v.18 - disobedience.
v.19 - Therefore, God in his anger closed the doors of Canaan in the face of that whole generation
(Nu 14:21-35), which is the very danger they are facing spiritually.

Could that possibly be the turning away from elementary things?

There is no "prodding" of the Holy Spirit in v.7, there is the "statement" of the Holy Spirit in Scripture, in Ps 95:7-11.

Click to expand...

There is the warning of hardening the heart that is seen patterned elsewhere in elementary circumcision and circumcised heart, the latter can be hardened. It remains to be seen what discipline befalls that.

A happy combination of my research and my executing.

A failed to see what that demonstrated.

What quote?

That remains to be textually demonstrated.

oh ok

ANd that brings us back to:
that rest which is the partaking of Christ is called the Gospel in verse 4:2
That rest which is the partaking of Christ is belief in the Gospel--the person and work of Jesus Christ, in verse 4:2, which partaking is salvation-rest in God's own Sabbath-rest.
And that brings us back to where we are after I read this post:

That rest which is the partaking of Christ is belief in the Gospel--the person and work of Jesus Christ, in verse 4:2, which partaking is salvation-rest in God's own Sabbath-rest.

Yah so ok, I really think that is the point :sigh:

beating a dead horse cannot possibly bring it to life again. Again, those are elementary facts that we already know. :ebil:

Clare73 · Jan 3, 2021

~Cassia~ said:
Could that possibly be the turning away from elementary things?

Elementary things are elementary teachings:
foundation of repentance from acts that lead to death,
faith in God,
instruction about baptisms,
the laying on of hands,
the resurrection of the dead, and
eternal judgment.

Edit: Their problem with the elementary things was not one of turning away, it was one of slow learning.

There is the warning of hardening the heart that is seen patterned elsewhere in elementary circumcision and circumcised heart, the latter can be hardened. It remains to be seen what discipline befalls that.

A failed to see what that demonstrated.

oh ok

Yah so ok,

I really think that is the point beating a dead horse cannot possibly bring it to life again. Again, those are elementary facts that we already know.

It's called "line upon line, verse upon verse."
.

Citizen of the Kingdom · Jan 3, 2021

Citizen of the Kingdom · Jan 3, 2021

Clare73 said:
Previously addressed in the following:

Heb 3:
v.6 - we are God's people (house--Ex 2:19; 1Pe 2:5) if we persevere. Failure to persevere reveals that we were not born again, not God's people (1Jn 2:19).
v.7-11 - "As the Holy Spirit says in the Word of God in Ps 95:7-11--"if you hear his voice" (the call of Christ--v.6, in the gospel message)--where the psalmist warns Israel based on the example of Israel's rebellion (apostasy) at Meriba (Ps 95:8) in Ex 17:7.
v.12 - warning against apostasy--"turns away from the living God."
v.13 - "Today" is still the day of grace and opportunity to enter, but it has an expiration date.
v.14 - Hebrews share in salvation-rest of Christ if they persevere to the end, revealing that they actually were born again (not still-born), and are in Christ.
v.15 - "if you hear his voice" (the call of Christ--v.14, in the gospel message) as it says in the Word of God in Ps 95:7-8.
v.16 - those who failed to enter Canaan (Nu 14:1-4) were the ones who had heard God's promise regarding the land and refused to believe (v.19), which is rebellion,
v.17 - sin, and
v.18 - disobedience.
v.19 - Therefore, God in his anger closed the doors of Canaan in the face of that whole generation
(Nu 14:21-35), which is the very danger these Hebrews are facing spiritually.

There is no "prodding" of the Holy Spirit in vv. 7, 15, there is "the Holy Spirit says,". . . in the Word of God, through the psalmist in Ps 95:7-11.

And there is "if you hear his voice" (the call of Christ--vv. 6, 14, in the gospel message) do not harden your hearts as you did in the rebellion (apostasy) at Meriba (Ps 95:8) in Ex 17:7, and at Canaan (3:16-18) in Nu 14:1-4, where a whole generation was shut out of God's own Sabbath-rest (3:11, 4:1, 3, 10-11) from works (as believers cease their own works to gain salvation, and rest in the finished work of Christ on the cross).

A happy combination of research and my exegeting.

And that remains for you to textually demonstrate.

Which brings us back to where we were, and where we are after I read this post:

1) That rest which is the partaking of Christ is belief in the Gospel--the person and work of Jesus Christ, in verse 4:2, which partaking is salvation-rest in God's own Sabbath-rest.
2) The warnings in respect to apostasy in the Book of Hebrews are regarding rebellion,
which is apostasy, as their rebellion in Ex 17:7 and Nu 14:1-4.

Both my conclusions have been textually demonstrated by me in the above.

2) The warnings in respect to apostasy in the Book of Hebrews are regarding rebellion,

which is apostasy, as their rebellion in Ex 17:7 and Nu 14:1-4.

Exodus 17:7

7 He called the place Massah[a] and Meribah, because the Israelites quarreled and tested the Lord, saying, “Is the Lord among us or not?”

a)Exodus 17:7 That is Test

b)Exodus 17:7 That is Quarrel

Numbers 14:1-4 The People Rebel

14 Then all the congregation raised a loud cry, and the people wept that night. 2 And all the Israelites complained against Moses and Aaron; the whole congregation said to them, “Would that we had died in the land of Egypt! Or would that we had died in this wilderness! 3 Why is the Lord bringing us into this land to fall by the sword? Our wives and our little ones will become booty; would it not be better for us to go back to Egypt?” 4 So they said to one another, “Let us choose a captain, and go back to Egypt.”

That makes no sense. They couldn’t choose Judus or the beautiful temple or could they choose Christ? Yes but do they? Thanks for figuring that out for us. A little wordy tho.

Citizen of the Kingdom · Jan 4, 2021

~Cassia~ said:
2) The warnings in respect to apostasy in the Book of Hebrews are regarding rebellion,

which is apostasy, as their rebellion in Ex 17:7 and Nu 14:1-4.

Exodus 17:7

7 He called the place Massah[a] and Meribah, because the Israelites quarreled and tested the Lord, saying, “Is the Lord among us or not?”

a)Exodus 17:7 That is Test

b)Exodus 17:7 That is Quarrel

Numbers 14:1-4 The People Rebel

14 Then all the congregation raised a loud cry, and the people wept that night. 2 And all the Israelites complained against Moses and Aaron; the whole congregation said to them, “Would that we had died in the land of Egypt! Or would that we had died in this wilderness! 3 Why is the Lord bringing us into this land to fall by the sword? Our wives and our little ones will become booty; would it not be better for us to go back to Egypt?” 4 So they said to one another, “Let us choose a captain, and go back to Egypt.”

That makes no sense. They couldn’t choose Judus or the beautiful temple or could they choose Christ? Yes but do they? Thanks for figuring that out for us. A little wordy tho.

Click to expand...

What is the contrast and commonalities?
The reference to turning back to Egypt is contrasted to turning back from following Jesus but there simply is no reference to choosing a NT new leader to do so. Apostasy, as their rebellion in Ex 17:7 and Nu 14:1-4 as warnings in respect to apostasy in the Book of Hebrews has no standing whatsoever. It’s a vague stretch of the imagination to say it does and appoint great discovery to a fact barely discernible at best.

Citizen of the Kingdom · Jan 4, 2021

The book of Hebrews is about Christ and keeping focus on Him, the author and finisher of our faith. All the reasons for not looking elsewhere are listed and Hebrews tediously explains the reasons not to focus attention elsewhere. From Hebrews 2:17-18 and Hebrews 4:15 the author is shown to have empathy for both priest and people in showing the humanity and compassion of Christ. Hebrews 5:2 is the essential characteristic of every high priest lived out in Jesus' own life Hebrews 5:7-9 and up until His death on the cross Hebrews 12:2-3 while Hebrews 13:12-13 brings our willingness to suffer with Him to point. The sharing of experiences with Him expands into partnering in others sufferings Hebrews 10:33-34 and those in chains Hebrews 13:3

Basic is the instruction to keep our eye on Jesus Hebrews 12:2-4

Clare73 · Jan 4, 2021

~Cassia~ said:
Thanks for figuring that out for us. A little wordy tho.

~Cassia~ said:
What is the contrast and commonalities?
The reference to turning back to Egypt is contrasted to turning back from following Jesus but there simply is no reference to choosing a NT new leader to do so.

Any ole port in a storm. . .

Apostasy, as their rebellion in Ex 17:7 and Nu 14:1-4 as warnings in respect to apostasy in the Book of Hebrews has no standing whatsoever. It’s a vague stretch of the imagination to say it does and appoint great discovery to a fact barely discernible at best.

And again. . .we see what blindness and rebellion look like.

It is Heb 3:7-8, referring to Ps 95:8, which parallels hardening of their hearts
(apostasy--3:12) at Meriba in Ps 95:8 with the NT Hebrews.

It is Heb 3:18, referring to Nu 14:20-23, Dt 1:34, 35, which parallels turning back to Egypt (apostasy) with the NT Hebrews falling short of God's Sabbath-rest (Heb 4:1-9).
Your rejection is of the author of Hebrews.

Just more blindness and rebellion. . .

(When you name the leader they chose to return to Egypt,
I will name the leader they chose to return to Judaism.)

Selah.

HIM · Jan 4, 2021

HIM said: ↑
Yes it is, But it is not the sin of returning to Judaism as you originally stated. Their Apostasy was sinning in general.

Clare73 said:
Previously addressed in the following:

There is no "prodding" of the Holy Spirit in vv. 7, 15, there is "the Holy Spirit saying" (speaking) . . in the Word of God, through the psalmist in Ps 95:7-11.

And there is "if you hear his voice" (the call of Christ--vv. 6, 14, in the gospel message) do not harden your hearts as you did in the rebellion (apostasy) at Meriba (Ps 95:8) in Ex 17:7, and at Canaan (3:16-18) in Nu 14:1-4, where a whole generation was shut out of God's own Sabbath-rest (3:11, 4:1, 3, 10-11) from works (as believers cease their own works to gain salvation, and rest in the finished work of Christ on the cross).

Addressed but not proven to be error. Let's define Apostasy.
As per Webster's:
!: an act of refusing to continue to follow, obey, or recognize a religious faith.

The following quote of yours can not be supported by the Book of Hebrews therefore it is false.

Clare73 said:
Hebrews is about the
new Christian Hebrews not falling away into apostasy by returning to Judaism because of the threats by their families to disinherit them for leaving Judaism.

The Context of the passages in question prove you wrong. WHEN considering Context one must keep in mind what was said before as one continues to read.

Heb 3:6 But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.
Heb 3:7 Wherefore (as (Just As) the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice,

Wherefore is the same as BECAUSE. Because we are His house, the Body of Christ, the Temple of God, as (Just As) the Holy Ghost saith, TODAY if ye will hear His voice. That hearing of His voice is the prodding of the Holy Spirit.

Heb 3:8 Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness:

They refused what they heard physically and Spiritually, Israel hardened their hearts to the voice, the word of God put in their hearts. By the prodding of the Holy Spirit.

Deut 30:11 For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not hidden from thee, neither is it far off.
Deut 30:12 It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?
Deut 30:13 Neither is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?
Deut 30:14 But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it.

Let's continue....
Heb 3:9 When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years.
Heb 3:10 Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways.

The word was nigh them in their heart, but they erred in their heart and refused to know (recognize) His ways.

Heb 3:11 So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.)
Heb 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.

To err in our hearts, to not know, recognize His ways is a evil heart of unbelief (disobedience) in that we are departing, separating ourselves from the living God.

So with that in mind. Because they erred in their heart and refused to know His ways God pronounced that they shall not enter into His Rest.
We are counseled to take heed to this, consider their state and the consequences of it.

Heb 3:13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.

To err in one's heart, to not know His ways is to be deceived through the deceitfulness of sin, thereby hardened.

Heb 3:14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;
Heb 3:15 While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, AS IN (just like in) the provocation (IRRATATION).

We are to exhort one another, lest any of us be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. We are called to Hold our confidence, trust in God. To not err in our heart and but recognize His way so we are not deceived by the deceitfulness of sin. So TODAY hear His voice, harden not your heart AS IN, JUST LIKE IN the provocation (IRRITATION).

AND HOW WERE THEIR HEARTS HARDENED IN THE PROVOCATION (IRRATATION)

Heb 3:16 For some, when they had heard, did provoke: howbeit not all that came out of Egypt by Moses.
Heb 3:17 But with whom was he grieved (VEXED,IRRITATED) forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness?

THROUGH THEIR SIN

AND WHAT DOES THEIR SIN AND OURS EQUATE TO?

Heb 3:18 And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not?
Heb 3:19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.

UNBELIEF

Which makes it understandable why Strong's defines the Greek word translated unbelief as such:
ἀπιστία
apistia
ap-is-tee'-ah
From G571; faithlessness, that is, (negatively) disbelief (want of Christian faith), or (positively) unfaithfulness (disobedience):—unbelief.

Citizen of the Kingdom · Jan 4, 2021

If we take the Spirit's exercise and God's discipline in the reality of the kingdom today, we will receive the Lord's reward and enter into the enjoyment of the coming Sabbath rest Hebrews 4:9

For the one who sanctifies and those who are sanctified all have one Father. For this reason Jesus is not ashamed to call us brothers and sisters, Hebrews 2:11

That’s why that those who indulge in prayerlessness are not accomplishing all they can that God has for them.

Hebrews 9:14
how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without blemish to God, purify our conscience from dead works to worship the living God!

For this reason He is the mediator of a new covenant, so that those who are called (today if you hear His Voice) may receive the promised eternal inheritance

That is the repentance of Hebrews 6, not to be repeated because the Father has but one gift, eternal life. Now we have come to the Kingdom of His Son.
Are we going to treat Him like a common thing and insult the Holy Spirit Hebrews 10:29 by rejecting what He’s done (reject the inheritance like Esua did) and return like a dog to our own vomit (old nature) to mire in our own filth like a swine?
Or are we going to learn of Him by respecting our covenant to Him and be yoked to Him, carrying our own cross by stopping what is of the old nature, picking up that which is of the new nature, and carry on following Him?

Thru the revealing of God thru Jesus Christ, God had this to say “Listen to Him” both on the mount of transfiguration and in the beginning chapters of the book of Hebrews. God has revealed Himself in multifaceted ways, in the law and in the prophets, and I’m sure many other ways, but in this day, called Today, He is revealing Himself in Jesus Christ. Peter wanted to put Jesus on equal standing with the Law and the prophets, but God the Father made it clear that Jesus is the One Whom we need to hear.

Hebrews 13:20 relates the association of shepherd to peace. Peace, as relating to the shepherd is His desire to lead to still ... Shalom. (7999, 8003 Strong’s concordance.) (suggests deep) water and nutritious food. Shalom relates to the New Jerusalem thru Melchizedek, king of peace. Shalom is ‘full shepherding, to the water’ in the sense of restoration.

The nazarite sanctification procedure of Numbers 6:2 sets in motion God’s rule in consecrated lives and was also fulfilled in Christ. Nazarites, Numbers 6:2 such as was Samuel, was the order rejected by the people and therefore they were in rejection of God.

Christ fulfilled it as Melchezedec in an everlasting life covenant to Whomsoever He will.

Peace and righteousness is the rule for today.

Clare73 · Jan 4, 2021

HIM said:
HIM said: ↑
Yes it is, But it is not the sin of returning to Judaism as you originally stated.
Their Apostasy was sinning in general.

Addressed but not proven to be error.

Let's define Apostasy.
As per Webster's:
!: an act of refusing to continue to follow, obey, or recognize a religious faith.

Your whole argument stands on your understanding of the meaning of
"apostasy" as "sinning in general."

You need a better Webster's:
"[Gr. apostasia a defection] Abandonment of what was once professed;
total desertion of principles or faith."

Now let's define "Apostasy" from the Greek: defection, revolt (rebellion)
NB: it is not "sinning in general," just as it is not that in the English.

Now to the use of apostasia in the NT--Ac 21:21 (turn away), 2Th 2:3 (rebellion),

Now to the use of rebellion in the OT Hebrew: meri--used in Neh 9:17 of the rebellion in the wilderness of Nu 14:1-4, which rebellion of Nu 14:1-4 is paralleled to the apostasy (Heb 3:12)
of the NT Hebrews (Heb 3:15-18, on Nu 14:1-4).

Apostasy is complete defection, rebellion, turning away (Heb 3:12; Ac 21:21),
it is not just "sinning in general," which definition you justify through loose handling of the Scriptures, ascribing contexts contrary to the author's contexts.

Your understanding of "apostasy" is in error, therefore,
your argument is in error, and "has no standing whatsoever."

Just more blindness and unbelief. . .

Selah.

For correct handling of the Scriptures, staying right on the text and the author's context of that text, rather than on one's own context of it, see the following:
Heb 3:
v.6 - we are God's people (house--Ex 2:19; 1Pe 2:5) if we persevere. Failure to persevere reveals that we were not born again, not God's people (1Jn 2:19).
v.7-11 - "As the Holy Spirit says (speaks) in the Word of God in Ps 95:7-11--"if you hear his voice" (the call of Christ--v.6, in the gospel message)--where the psalmist warns Israel based on the example of Israel's rebellion (apostasy) at Meriba (Ps 95:8) in Ex 17:7.
v.12 - warning against apostasy--"turns away from the living God."
v.13 - "Today" is still the day of grace and opportunity to enter, but it has an expiration date.
v.14 - Hebrews share in salvation-rest of Christ if they persevere to the end, revealing that they actually were born again (not still-born), and are in Christ.
v.15 - "if you hear his voice" (the call of Christ--v.14, in the gospel message) as it says (speaks) in the Word of God in Ps 95:7-8.
v.16 - those who failed to enter Canaan (Nu 14:1-4) were the ones who had heard God's promise regarding the land and refused to believe (v.19), which is rebellion,
v.17 - sin, and
v.18 - disobedience.
v.19 - Therefore, God in his anger closed the doors of Canaan in the face of that whole generation
(Nu 14:21-35), which is the very danger these Hebrews are facing spiritually.

There is no "prodding" of the Holy Spirit in vv. 7, 15, there is "the Holy Spirit says" (speaks). . . in the Word of God, through the psalmist in Ps 95:7-11.

And there is "if you hear his voice" (the call of Christ--vv. 6, 14, in the gospel message) do not harden your hearts as you did in the rebellion (apostasy) at Meriba (Ps 95:8) in Ex 17:7, and at Canaan (3:16-18) in Nu 14:1-4, where a whole generation was shut out of God's Sabbath-rest (3:11, 4:1, 3, 10-11) from his own works (as believers cease their own works to gain salvation, and rest in the finished work of Christ on the cross).

HIM · Jan 4, 2021

Clare73 said:
Your argument stands on your understanding of the meaning of
"apostasy" as "sinning in general."

You need a better Webster's:
"[Gr. apostasia a defection] Abandonment of what was once professed;
total desertion of principles or faith."

Now let's define "Apostasy" from the Greek: defection, revolt (rebellion)
NB: it is not "sinning in general," just as it is not that in English.

Sure it is. It is a defection from truth. It does not need to a complete forsaking of an entire entity. It can be in part.
Here is Strong's entry
ἀποστασία
apostasia
ap-os-tas-ee'-ah
Feminine of the same as G647; defection from truth (properly the state), (“apostasy”):—falling away, forsake.

Here is a excerpt from the BDAG. The definition of the word is emphasized in bold.

ἀποστασία, ας, ἡ (s. ἀφίστημι; a form quotable since Diod. S. outside the Bible [Nägeli 31] for the older ἀπόστασις [Phryn. 528 Lob.]) defiance of established system or authority, rebellion, abandonment, breach of faith (Josh 22:22; 2 Ch 29:19; 1 Macc 2:15; Just., D. 110, 2; Tat. 8:1).....

Defection from truth would be sinning a sin.
Falling away would be sinning a sin.
A defiance of established system or authority, rebellion, abandonment, breach of faith would be sinning a sin or continuing therein.

Webster's is rather clear. Here is the full entry
Definition of apostasy

1: an act of refusing to continue to follow, obey, or recognize a religious faith
2: abandonment of a previous loyalty : DEFECTION

Your understanding of "apostasy" is in error, therefore,
your argument is in error and has no standing.

The argument is based on the text not the definition of the word. Which by the way is not even in the text in question.
AS WAS SAID The Context of the passages in question prove you wrong. WHEN considering Context one must keep in mind what was said before as one continues to read.

Heb 3:6 But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.
Heb 3:7 Wherefore (as (Just As) the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice,

Wherefore is the same as BECAUSE. Because we are His house, the Body of Christ, the Temple of God, as (Just As) the Holy Ghost saith, TODAY if ye will hear His voice. That hearing of His voice is the prodding of the Holy Spirit.

Heb 3:8 Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness:

They refused what they heard physically and Spiritually, Israel hardened their hearts to the voice, the word of God put in their hearts. By the prodding of the Holy Spirit.

Deut 30:11 For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not hidden from thee, neither is it far off.
Deut 30:12 It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?
Deut 30:13 Neither is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?
Deut 30:14 But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it.

Let's continue....
Heb 3:9 When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years.
Heb 3:10 Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways.

The word was nigh them in their heart, but they erred in their heart and refused to know (recognize) His ways.

Heb 3:11 So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.)
Heb 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.

To err in our hearts, to not know, recognize His ways is a evil heart of unbelief (disobedience) in that we are departing, separating ourselves from the living God.

So with that in mind. Because they erred in their heart and refused to know His ways God pronounced that they shall not enter into His Rest.
We are counseled to take heed to this, consider their state and the consequences of it.

Heb 3:13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.

To err in one's heart, to not know His ways is to be deceived through the deceitfulness of sin, thereby hardened.

Heb 3:14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;
Heb 3:15 While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, AS IN (just like in) the provocation (IRRATATION).

We are to exhort one another, lest any of us be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. We are called to Hold our confidence, trust in God. To not err in our heart and but recognize His way so we are not deceived by the deceitfulness of sin. So TODAY hear His voice, harden not your heart AS IN, JUST LIKE IN the provocation (IRRITATION).

AND HOW WERE THEIR HEARTS HARDENED IN THE PROVOCATION (IRRATATION)

Heb 3:16 For some, when they had heard, did provoke: howbeit not all that came out of Egypt by Moses.
Heb 3:17 But with whom was he grieved (VEXED,IRRITATED) forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness?

THROUGH THEIR SIN

AND WHAT DOES THEIR SIN AND OURS EQUATE TO?

Heb 3:18 And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not?
Heb 3:19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.

UNBELIEF

Which makes it understandable why Strong's defines the Greek word translated unbelief as such:
ἀπιστία
apistia
ap-is-tee'-ah
From G571; faithlessness, that is, (negatively) disbelief (want of Christian faith), or (positively) unfaithfulness (disobedience):—unbelief.

Just more blindness and unbelief. . .

So now we are going to result to insulting one another?

Citizen of the Kingdom · Jan 4, 2021

While the other posters are losing ground by throwing dirt at each other I’ll fill in some facts to carry us on into the meatier parts of the book. This should suffice for the time being but read the other two posts from today for a more complete picture. They consist of His Peace and His righteousness and this one carries on into His obedience opening up the way into our obedience to the prescribed obedience that He broke thru in the flesh from His divinity subjected to human living and the path thru that living from flesh to holiness..

Hebrews 4:15 Let us embrace the holy Law of God, recognize our sinful condition before it, and come boldly before the throne of grace to obtain the grace we need to live it out

Having the mind (the nous) of Christ Romans 12:1-3 the askesis that is commonly taught in the bible. It is indeed the gospel according to Jesus.

If anyone is willing... let him first deny himself... then take up his cross... and follow me...

One has to be willing to deny themselves, the body and mind subject to the spirit, then pick up the cross, follow HIM as He is subject to the Spirit, to make the first step of purification of the soul as entry into the Faith (in Him) which Christ discipled to His Disciples (chela).

The catharsis... the purged conscience... is maintained at the throne of Grace in daily coming to Him in prayer. One shouldn't choose to seek Him elsewhere ...

The kata-holon the “totality.”.. is the heart of the matter. A darkening of the nous that returns to the ways of the Gentile is forbidden. Ephesians 4:17-24

This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind Strong’s 3563,nous having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart: (blindness: or, hardness) Strong's Greek: 1271. (dianoia) -- the mind, disposition, thought.

The author of the book of Hebrews advised believers not to stagger in the wandering of their souls, the souls that they had to deny, but to press on in their spirit so as to enjoy the heavenly Christ and participate in the king's rest.

If they staggered in that soul wandering, they would miss out on God's goal by suffering the loss of the enjoyment of Christ and also the kingdom's rest in this age. His word to the Hebrews was able to expose the intent behind the believers who were staggering thru the process of salvation.

Therefore our spirit is the organ with which we contact God, while our heart is the organ with which we love God. So for the human spirit to contact or experience God requires that our heart love God.

The heart of each individuals nous, whether it be acting from body, mind or spirit is our lifeline knit into us. A renewed nous is the organ to contact while the heart is the bearer of what comes out of the mouth, ie: the fruit thereof.

When God is invisably then His consciousness is in knowing that the nous is enacted. Enacting prayer w/o ceasing is knowing of His invisable Presence, never leaving never forsaking, His present awareness, today.

God in Christ doesn't withdraw, only going from visable circumstances (whether in sight, sound, or feeling) to invisable where the trial goes on in His "seeming" absence.

I believe it's His teaching method to 'seemingly' withdraw where His disciples are 'seemingly' left.

Yet we're told to worship in spirit because God is Spirit. Many people have many different blessings from God and when these are withdrawn they tend to suppose that God has gone also when in fact the still small voice has become quite so that we also can become still and know Him.

God loves us because of who we are, vessels for Him, not in spite of who we are. It's the non-submission of body to mind or mind to spirit that keeps us in the fallen path and that should not be.

Clare73 · Jan 4, 2021

HIM said:
The argument is based on the text not the definition of the word.

Moving the goal posts. . .from the definition of "apostasy" to the "texts."

See post #135 for the meaning of the text, and the author's contexts of those texts, rather than different contexts ascribed to them by you.

Selah.

Moving the goal posts is my cue. . .over and out.

HIM · Jan 4, 2021

Clare73 said:
Moving the goal posts. . .from the definition of "apostasy" to the "texts."

See post #135 for the meaning of the text, and the author's contexts of those texts, rather than different ones ascribed to them by you.

Selah.

In other words you can't Prove it wrong.
That is not issue really considering it is true.

Take care

Clare73 · Jan 4, 2021

Clare73 said:
Moving the goal posts. . .from the definition of "apostasy" to the "texts."

See post #135 for the meaning of the texts, and the author's contexts of those texts, rather than different contexts ascribed to them by you.

Moving the goal posts is my cue. . .over and out.

Selah.

HIM said:
In other words you can't Prove it wrong.

I wonder if any of those Hebrews considered themselves to be wrong in their blindness and unbelief, which the author of Hebrews was warning them about in paralleling them to apostate Israel in Nu 14:1-4 (Heb 3:15-18). Of course, any who were blind did not think they were wrong.

"Apostasy" is a Greek word, its definition and use in the NT are what it means in NT Greek. When
your definition of "apostasy" is unseated by the English, Greek and Hebrew (rebellion) definitions,
you then maintain "definition" is not the basis of your argument, and move the goal post to "text."

That's my cue. . .regarding the "good faith" of your argument.
"Thy speech doth betray thee."

And yet you keep trying to demonstrate your definition is true (because it is the basis of your argument); e.g.,
"Sure it is. It is a defection from truth. It does not need to a complete forsaking of an entire entity. It can be in part."

That is not issue really considering it is true.

Assumes what is to be proven is true.

Cue again. . .regarding the "good faith" of your argument.

The meaning of Heb 3 is given in post #135, with the author's context of those texts, rather than contexts ascribed by you.

Just more blindness and unbelief. . .
which goes a long way in understanding all the effort, vested interest and bad-faith argument denying a letter to Hebrews could be about the blindness and unbelief of apostasy, which the author is clearly and undeniably warning them against, paralleling them to the flagrant example of Israel in Nu 14:1-4 (Heb 3:15-18).

"Thou doth protest too much"

Over and out. . .
.

The book of Hebrews

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