Christianity has nothing to offer you while you're alive

St_Worm2 · Jan 2, 2021

Occams Barber said:
Is that a 'Yes', a 'No', a 'Maybe' or an 'I don't know'?

It actually reads like all four.

OB

Hello Occams Barber, "no, I don't believe so" was my answer. The rest I included to be informative (and to explain why I qualified my "no" with, "I don't believe so".

--David

Nihilist Virus · Jan 2, 2021

St_Worm2 said:
Hello Occams Barber, "no, I don't believe so" was my answer. The rest I included to be informative (and to explain why I qualified my "no" with, "I don't believe so".

--David

So then you do have to die first because your body cannot be there. I don't understand why you objected to my point originally.

Reasonable Christian · Jan 2, 2021

Nihilist Virus said:
So you agree with the thread, then?

My answer is my answer. Please don't put words in my mouth.

St_Worm2 · Jan 2, 2021

Nihilist Virus said:
So then you do have to die first because your body cannot be there.

I'm sorry if I was not clear, it is not necessary for a human being to die to go, soul AND body, into Heaven (as there are at least three people in Heaven right now who have physical bodies), but it is hardly typical

With ~rare~ exception, we all die phyiscally, but our souls never die (and we believe that all are conscious during what we Christians refer to as the "Intermediate State", which is the period of time between physical death and bodily resurrection, believers and unbelievers alike).

--David

Nihilist Virus · Jan 2, 2021

Reasonable Christian said:
My answer is my answer. Please don't put words in my mouth.

I asked a question. Why accuse me of putting words in your mouth? Am I not allowed to seek clarity?

Do you or do you not agree with this thread?

Nihilist Virus · Jan 2, 2021

St_Worm2 said:
I'm sorry if I was not clear, it is not necessary for a human being to die to go, soul AND body, into Heaven (as there are at least three people in Heaven right now who have physical bodies), but it is hardly typical With ~rare~ exception, we all die phyiscally, but our souls never die (and we believe that all are conscious during what we Christians refer to as the "Intermediate State", which is the period of time between physical death and bodily resurrection, believers and unbelievers alike).

--David

Ok so if you're done nitpicking on details that haven't been relevant for thousands of years, what does Christianity offer while I'm alive? Hope and joy?

NBB · Jan 2, 2021

Nihilist Virus said:
Ok so if you're done nitpicking on details that haven't been relevant for thousands of years, what does Christianity offer while I'm alive? Hope and joy?

You don't get it, peace and joy and an 'alive' hope and spiritual blessings are real stuff from God, not some inner state of yourself feeling something after seeing a sunset or meditating etc.
All this comes from being 'alive' in the spirit, meaning the spirit of God comes to us in the 'new birth'.
The bible talks of other things we can get also.

Reasonable Christian · Jan 2, 2021

Nihilist Virus said:
I asked a question. Why accuse me of putting words in your mouth? Am I not allowed to seek clarity?

Do you or do you not agree with this thread?

I think people should primarily adopt a worldview because they think it's true. Do you disagree?

Nihilist Virus · Jan 2, 2021

NBB said:
You don't get it, peace and joy and an 'alive' hope and spiritual blessings are real stuff from God, not some inner state of yourself feeling something after seeing a sunset or meditating etc.
All this comes from being 'alive' in the spirit, meaning the spirit of God comes to us in the 'new birth'.
The bible talks of other things we can get also.

Are you saying that other religions don't offer similar stuff?

NBB · Jan 2, 2021

Nihilist Virus said:
Are you saying that other religions don't offer similar stuff?

Yes they don't have this. A person would need to experience it to get how it can be, words don't do it justice.

Yttrium · Jan 2, 2021

Nihilist Virus said:
Why?

You said:

Morality and charity are offset by decades of child rape sanctioned by the Pope. And I'm being charitable to Christianity in counting that as zero instead of negative.

At most, that's just the Catholics, representing around half of Christianity. Protestants generally want nothing to do with the Pope. As for Catholics, the pedophilia thing doesn't erase the entire moral structure of the Church. Going back in history, I can find much worse cases of immorality in the Church, and I still would say that the religion overall provides a solid moral structure. Every religion and philosophy will have adherents who go and do immoral things, up to including leaders.

Saying that Christianity has bad morals because Church leadership covered up pedophilia makes no more sense than saying atheists are immoral because Stalin's regime murdered so many political enemies. It's just nonsensical.

Nihilist Virus · Jan 2, 2021

NBB said:
Yes they don't have this. A person would need to experience it to get how it can be, words don't do it justice.

Wow. Bizarre. I could've sworn other religions offer peace, joy, and spirituality.

Nihilist Virus · Jan 2, 2021

Yttrium said:
You said:

At most, that's just the Catholics, representing around half of Christianity. Protestants generally want nothing to do with the Pope.

This is hypothetical and speculative, but I'm fairly convinced that if there was an atheist charity that was supposedly doing a lot of good in the world and feeding the poor, but it was found out that they did a lot of sick things with little boys and everyone in the upper hierarchy was aware and did nothing, then such an organization wouldn't last long before every stone was overturned.

People continue to support the Catholic church in spite of everything. Priests marked little boys that had already been raped by giving them gold crosses to indicate to other priests that such a child could be more easily persuaded than virgin children. I could go on and on. I don't see Protestants protesting the Catholic church into oblivion.

Given that the pope is also the king of a sovereign nation, we should've rolled a single tank into the Vatican a long time ago and put a stop to all of this. When a foreign king persuades our own citizens to cover up child rape and not report it to the authorities, but rather report it directly to him, that's serious obstruction of justice. It's been done repeatedly and for sick and perverted reasons. How many child rapes need to be covered up until it's an act of war?

Protestants protest gay marriage but stand by while children are serially raped to the point that children literally experience life as a sex slave for several years. Sorry, I don't buy this "Protestants are innocent" nonsense.

As for Catholics, the pedophilia thing doesn't erase the entire moral structure of the Church.

Yes it does. For most families, if a person raped one of their children, there's nothing that rapist could do to make up for it.

Going back in history, I can find much worse cases of immorality in the Church, and I still would say that the religion overall provides a solid moral structure.

Ok, that's your own bizarre opinion. You're telling me there are things which are somehow worse than worldwide conspiracies to cover up decades of child rape and that this same system somehow comes up with a "solid moral structure" which you presumably believe provides society with an overall net good.

Utterly bizarre.

Every religion and philosophy will have adherents who go and do immoral things, up to including leaders.

Right. If only there was some deity who would actually hold religious leaders accountable, or at least the religious leaders representing said deity's religion.

Saying that Christianity has bad morals because Church leadership covered up pedophilia makes no more sense than saying atheists are immoral because Stalin's regime murdered so many political enemies. It's just nonsensical.

Stalin's lack of a belief in a deity is not what gained him power. Christianity's theism is what gained it power. What a bizarre comparison.

Yttrium · Jan 2, 2021

Nihilist Virus said:
I don't see Protestants protesting the Catholic church into oblivion.

How could they? Protestants are not a solid block. They're made up of many denominations, they don't work together very well for the most part, and any given denomination is tiny compared to the Catholic Church.

How many child rapes need to be covered up until it's an act of war?

These crimes have taken place in a variety of countries, and it's up to the criminal justice systems of the various countries to deal with them. Sanctions can be placed on the Vatican if necessary. No country is going to start lobbing missiles at the Vatican due to the Pope being protective of pedophiles, horrible as they may be.

Protestants protest gay marriage but stand by while children are serially raped to the point that children literally experience life as a sex slave for several years.

I don't see too many other religions going after the Vatican with torches and pitchforks either...

You're telling me there are things which are somehow worse than worldwide conspiracies to cover up decades of child rape

For example:
St. Bartholomew's Day massacre - Wikipedia

Also institutional slavery, which many Christians condoned for a very long time.

And of course there are others. Christianity has been around for a very long time.

and that this same system somehow comes up with a "solid moral structure" which you presumably believe provides society with an overall net good.

I don't see any scripture that supports or encourages pedophilia. If you could point it out to me, I would appreciate it. None of Christianity's moral teachings say "go forth and fondle young boys." Bad leaders come and go.

Stalin's lack of a belief in a deity is not what gained him power. Christianity's theism is what gained it power. What a bizarre comparison.

Not bizarre at all. Atheism does not promote massacres of political enemies, and Christianity does not promote pedophilia. In both cases, you have some bad leaders causing problems.

Eloy Craft · Jan 2, 2021

Nihilist Virus said:
Ok so if you're done nitpicking on details that haven't been relevant for thousands of years, what does Christianity offer while I'm alive? Hope and joy?

Jesus places value on suffering. The first Christians had Roman neighbors and this is what their Roman neighbors wrote and I paraphrase. The Christians rejoice when persecuted for the opportunity to forgive, knowing forgiveness adds power to their prayers.

Quid est Veritas? · Jan 2, 2021

Really, this is quite untrue according to the data. I attached and discussed a number of such studies in this thread:

Atheism and Health

Evidence-based Medicine has consistently found that the religious are healthier, both mentally and physically, and happier than their non-religious peers of same socio-economic status. So the material benefits of religion are clear cut and easily demonstrable. These studies were overwhelmingly done in the West, so the religion here is mostly Christianity - meaning the clearest evidence for this benefit, with the most numbers, is for Christianity being so.

Further, the restrictions on your freedoms of Christianity that is supposedly an impediment, are certainly not. They are part and parcel of the effect. Prohibitions on multiple partners for instance, protects against sexually transmitted diseases and the support for marriage creates stable conditions for home life. There is a difference between Libertas and Licentia, which we in the West have forgotten. Humans don't usually choose what is best for them, so similarly to how I have to guide my children, we need the same parameters.

As I argued in the thread I linked earlier, one can argue Atheism is an impediment to optimum functioning of the human organism, in fact. The evidence for this is robust and fairly clear.

Nihilist Virus · Jan 2, 2021

Yttrium said:
How could they? Protestants are not a solid block. They're made up of many denominations, they don't work together very well for the most part, and any given denomination is tiny compared to the Catholic Church.

They managed to work together to protest gay marriage.

These crimes have taken place in a variety of countries, and it's up to the criminal justice systems of the various countries to deal with them. Sanctions can be placed on the Vatican if necessary. No country is going to start lobbing missiles at the Vatican due to the Pope being protective of pedophiles, horrible as they may be.

Do you believe there should be sanctions?

I don't see too many other religions going after the Vatican with torches and pitchforks either...

Does this absolve the Catholic church in any way? Is this an example of how Christianity is offering something to the world?

Other countries won't invade the Vatican because they know what would happen. We support Isreal because of the large voting bloc of Evangelicals. These same Evangelicals would demand retribution if, say, Muslims attacked the Vatican.

For example:
St. Bartholomew's Day massacre - Wikipedia

Also institutional slavery, which many Christians condoned for a very long time.

And of course there are others. Christianity has been around for a very long time.

And that helps your case how...?

I don't see any scripture that supports or encourages pedophilia. If you could point it out to me, I would appreciate it. None of Christianity's moral teachings say "go forth and fondle young boys." Bad leaders come and go.

Many Muslims claim, in an astonishing attempt at gaslighting, that Islam is a religion of peace. Absurd as this is, it is true that there's nothing in the Koran about suicide bombers because bombs didn't exist when Muhammad (FBUH) was writing his books. I don't care if there's no moral teaching about suicide bombings in Islam. I care that they are doing it and it needs to stop.

Now, of course there will be no moral teachings about raping little boys. But the actions of priests would certainly indicate otherwise, and their actions are what concern me.

Not bizarre at all. Atheism does not promote massacres of political enemies, and Christianity does not promote pedophilia. In both cases, you have some bad leaders causing problems.

You ignored my point. Stalin didn't rise to power because of a lack of a belief in a deity. Conversely, the Catholic religion is what gives those child rapists power. The religion itself is the problem. Without adherents, there would be no system in place allowing priests to rape little boys with impunity.

Llewelyn Stevenson · Jan 2, 2021

Nihilist Virus said:
Would you believe these claims if you were me?

That is a question I cannot answer because, if I were you, would I still be me?

If you are asking, do I believe what others say of themselves? Yes, I tend toward what others call being naive. If you share an experience with me about yourself I accept it as true because you said it, and I will continue to accept it until it is proven false.

I do not condemn those who are suffering because that is uncompassionate.

If you can believe a christian who tells you they are suffering, why can you not believe a christian who tells you they are blessed?

Suffering is a part of this world. We all suffer. Including me. Why should suffering disallow us from blessing?

Psa 146:5 Happy is he that hath the God of Jacob for his help, whose hope is in the LORD his God:
Psa 146:6 Which made heaven, and earth, the sea, and all that therein is: which keepeth truth for ever:
Psa 146:7 Which executeth judgment for the oppressed: which giveth food to the hungry. The LORD looseth the prisoners:
Psa 146:8 The LORD openeth the eyes of the blind: the LORD raiseth them that are bowed down: the LORD loveth the righteous:
Psa 146:9 The LORD preserveth the strangers; he relieveth the fatherless and widow: but the way of the wicked he turneth upside down.
Psa 146:10 The LORD shall reign for ever, even thy God, O Zion, unto all generations. Praise ye the LORD.

Which part of that promise does not apply to this life and is only the promise of an eternal future?

As you have seen quoted in other posts above Jesus promised, not only for the future, also for the present.

The true joy of the believer is that we have both a present and a future. The promise of his provision protection and comfort in this life and an eternal future with him. Having experienced the first I am assured of and expect the second. I'm looking forward to it.

The joy that I have for you is that you can have a part in it also if you will believe, perhaps as I have?

You see, my faith acts on both God's promises and his commands. I love him and so I love to please him. When he says, don't do that, I don't and he helps me not to.

I don't just say I believe, I show I believe. Do this and you will experience many blessings in the midst of suffering.

childeye 2 · Jan 3, 2021

Nihilist Virus said:
If I attempt to interpret your nonsense, it's very unlikely I'll infer what you intend.

Why would you not infer what I intend? You should at least understand that having a self sacrificial love isn't about gaining material things for one's self.

Llewelyn Stevenson · Jan 3, 2021

Nihilist Virus said:
Ok so if you're done nitpicking on details that haven't been relevant for thousands of years, what does Christianity offer while I'm alive? Hope and joy?

I already showed you by my testimony but all you said is, I don't believe you.

If you won't believe me, what is the point in telling you any further since you are not looking for reasons to believe but not to believe?

However I will pursue my statement with a further testimony from my mum when I was 10 years old.

At that time the church told my dad they could not afford to pay him for his ministerial services and we had no income as a family [church ministry can be tough and cruel]. However a farmer of another fellowship felt he needed to help us and butchered a sheep for us once in a while [we were a family of 7]. One day a lady working at the railway rang my dad and told him a couple of bags of onions had fallen off the train and, if he would go and collect them, we could have them. So for 2 months we lived on mutton and onions provided by people and means that were not responsible for us.

During that time a lady rang my mum to say she was coming to visit. We had no cake or biscuits to offer and no milk or sugar for the tea. This was embarrassing to mum and she prayed about it. The visit was set for the afternoon. Mid morning a lady brought her a homemade lemon meringue and that cheered her as she now had something to offer. When she lifted the pie from the board to the plate there was R10 [we lived in Queenstown South Africa] and she was able to buy milk and sugar. The lady who visited that afternoon was totally unaware of our lack and mum did not have to be embarrassed.

These are some of the provisions God has given us by the means he said he would. I am sure there are others who could share similar experiences with you, I am not sure why they do not.

As the creator God provides everything we need, even to you; but you do not believe this and that is your choice. It is not God's choice and not the choice he would have you make because he tells you to choose what he has offered.

Christianity has nothing to offer you while you're alive

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