If salvation was by deeds

fhansen said:

From those given more, more will be demanded (Luke 12:48).
We “invest” whatever talents were given, with an increase expected (Matt 25:14-30).

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Of course the PROBLEM with this comment is that it does not
understand the CONTEXT of these events and, therefore, it
cannot hope to understand the MEANING of the passage.
It assumes the "we" are those living during the church age
when the CONTEXT is actually during the Great Tribulation
and/or the Revelation Beast.


The Gospel of the Bible is that the Holy Spirit remains with the
elect (the "wheat" in the church, but not the "tares" in the church)
until it's time for Satan to be "loosened" from the Bottomless Pit
to RULE during his "Little Season" [Rev 9:1-2, Rev 20:3].


Until Satan is "loosened" from the Bottomless Pit, the saints
"lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years" [Rev 20:4]
which is the A-Millennial period of the church age... also shown
in Mat 28:20 as the Great Commission when Jesus promises
to "be with you until the end of the age". This is also shown
as the time when the "two witnesses" preach their "testimony"
[Rev 11:3-4] Please note: the "two candlesticks" and the two
"olive trees" represent the church - preaching in the church age.


However, AFTER the "testimony" of the church is finished, Satan
is "loosened" from the Bottomless Pit to "make war with them"
(the LAST "wheat and tares" in the church) and to "overcome"
them and (spiritually) "kill them" [Rev 11:7 and Dan 7:24-25]
for a period called 3.5 "days/times/years/watches of the night",
all of which represent the Great Tribulation or the Revelation Beast.


But, BEFORE Satan can be "loosened" from the Pit to RULE over
the last "wheat and tares" (shown as ten "virgins" in Mat 25:1-13,
as ten "kings/horns" in Daniel 7 and (again) as ten "kings/horns"
in Rev 17:12-13 and Rev 17:17]... FIRST the Last Saint must be
"sealed/saved" [Rev 7:1-3] and the Holy Spirit (which "restrains")
must be "taken out of the way" [2 Thess 2:6-9]... only THEN
can the "Man of Sin" be "revealed" (to the Last Saints) and be
"destroyed with the Brightness of His Coming". [2 Thess 2:6-9]


The CONTEXT of the passages mentioned in this post is AFTER
the Great Commission ("testimony" of the church) is finished and
AFTER the Last Saint has been saved and AFTER the Holy Spirit has
been "taken out of the way"... it is only THEN that Satan can be
"loosened" to RULE in the Great Tribulation "Kingdom of Heaven"
[Mat 25:1-13] also shown as the 7-Headed Revelation Beast... as
the (last) saints are NO LONGER "living and ruling with Christ".


So, it's a COMMON MISTAKE for those BEFORE the Last Saints
to assume the passages mentioned in the previous post to be
representing the "church age". However, the CONTEXT of those
passages is the duration of the Great Tribulation "Kingdom" and/or
the Revelation Beast. This is easily proven in SCRIPTURE when
it is read carefully, or "revealed" by one of the Last Saints, as
was promised in Scripture to occur during the "time of the end"
[Dan 12:8-10] and/or the "Season and Time" [Dan 7:11-12],
or when the Seventh Trumpet "begins to sound" [Rev 10:7-11],
which is also the period mentioned in Rev 11:14.


(1) First, notice in Matthew 25:14-30 the CONTEXT is shown
as the period "as a man [Jesus] travelling into a far country"
[Mat 25:14] until "after a long time the Lord of those servants
cometh" [Mat 25:19]. Most people have incorrectly ASSUMED
this period was from the Lord's resurrection - until His Return...
however the actual CONTEXT is AFTER the "end of the age"
when the Great Commission ("testimony" of the church) occurred
and AFTER the last saint had been "sealed" [Rev 7:1-3] and
AFTER the Holy Spirit was "taken out of the way" so Satan
could RULE during the period shown as the Great Tribulation or
the 7-Headed Revelation Beast. This Biblical FACT is shown by
comparing Mat 25 with all other RELATED Scriptures.


(2) Secondly, in Luke 12:36-50 the CONTEXT is shown as the
period "when He [Jesus] will RETURN from the wedding".
The "wedding" does not occur until AFTER all the saints have
been "sealed", and AFTER the Great Tribulation [Mat 25:10]
Jesus does not RETURN while He is "with us until the end of
the age" of the Great Commission of the "testimony" during
the church age. And Jesus does not RETURN while the saints
"lived and ruled with Christ" during the church age.


The time when Jesus RETURNS is AFTER the Great Tribulation
or the Revelation Beast, and AFTER the "marriage supper of
the Lamb" [Rev 19:7,9]. Jesus does not RETURN while the
Holy Spirit is "taken out of the way" and Satan Rules... but
AFTER the "Man of Sin" is "revealed" and then DESTROYED
by "the brightness of His Coming".


(3) This is all shown very clearly when COMPARING these events
with the Lord's Return in Luke 19. The CONTEXT of these events
[Luke 19:12-27] again BEGIN (like Mat 25:14-30) at the time when
"A certain nobleman [Jesus] went into a far country to RECEIVE
for himself a KINGDOM, and to RETURN". Again, this is NOT the
period (church age) when "the saints lived and ruled with Christ"
and this is NOT the period when Christ "is with us until the end of
the age". This is the period or time when the Holy Spirit as been
"taken out of the way" and Satan has been "loosened" from the
Bottomless Pit to RULE during the Great Tribulation and Revelation
Beast.


The CONTEXT of these events is confirmed [Luke 19:15] as being
"when he was returned, HAVING RECEIVED THE KINGDOM",
and NOT while the "Kingdom" was being built as the "testimony"
of the church was to "seek and save" all the lost sheep. This is
NOT before the last saint had been "sealed" and Satan had RULED
during His "Little Season" of the Great Tribulation/Revelation Beast.
This is AFTER the "Man of Sin" was "revealed" and DESTROYED
by the "brightness of His Coming". AFTER the Great Tribulation
and the Revelation Beast. It's AFTER the "marriage of the Lamb"
which could never happen before the "Final Harvest" [Mat 25:10]
when "the Door was Shut".


This CONTEXT is confirmed [Luke 19:27] when Jesus commands
that all His "enemies" (representing the "tares" in the church who
are sown by Satan) to "bring hither and SLAY THEM before Me".
This event doesn't occur before the Final Harvest [Mat 13:30,41-42]
it occurs AFTER the "Door was Shut" [Mat 25:10]


So... while many teach the parable of the "talents/pounds" occurs
DURING the "testimony" of the church in the Great Commission,
the CONTEXT is actually AFTER the "testimony" is finished and
AFTER all the saints have been "sealed" and AFTER the Holy Spirit
had been "taken out of the way" and AFTER the Great Tribulation
"Kingdom of Heaven" is finished and AFTER the Revelation Beast
was destroyed and AFTER Satan's "Little Season" was finished and
AFTER the Final Harvest was finished, AFTER the "Door was Shut"
and AFTER the "marriage supper of the Lamb".


Those teaching these events occur DURING the church age simply
have NO IDEA what they are talking about because they do not
understand the CONTEXT of the events They do not understand the
Gospel includes a "time of the end" or "Season and Time" on earth
AFTER the "testimony" of the church" is finished and all the saints
have been "sealed" and the Holy Spirit is "taken out of the way".


This is when the Lord takes a "long journey" while Satan RULES during the Great Tribulation/Revelation Beast... The Lord does not
Return until AFTER the "Final Harvest" and "marriage supper"
and they do not understand because all of these Gospel Truths had
remained "closed-up" and "sealed" to all previous saints until the
Last Saints, "shall understand" as clearly foretold in Daniel 12:8-10
and Matthew 24:15 and 33, and the Last Saints PREACH these Bible
"mysteries" (and many others mysteries, as the Seventh Trumpet
"begins to sound" [Rev 10:7-11].


BTW... there are NO MORE "signs" on earth AFTER the Seventh
Trumpet "begins to sound", until the resurrection of the dead,
the Lord's Return and the Last Saints being "changed" into our
incorruptible spiritual bodies in the "twinkling of an eye".


Now, we are NOT saying that the saved "wheat" in the church
do not produce "fruit"... they certainly do, some thirty-fold, others
sixty-fold and some one hundred fold. But the EVENTS described in
Mat 25 and Luke 12 and 19 are EVENTS associated with the period
of the Great Tribulation/Revelation Beast and NOT the church age
BEFORE the last saint is "sealed" and BEFORE the Holy Spirit has
been "taken out of the way" so Satan can be "loosened" to rule..


Finally, the "unprofitable servant" refers to a specific person living
during the Great Tribulation "Kingdom" or the Revelation Beast who
(like the faithful servants) was given some understanding about the
events of the Revelation Beast but (unlike the faithful servants) he
decided to not preach those Truths ("hid Thy talent in the earth").
Again, harmonizing with everything else the Bible teaches about the
period of the Great Tribulation and Revelation Beast... but NOT the
period of the church age when Christ was "with us" and the saints
"lived and reigned with Christ".


Jim

Brightfame52 said:

5th kingdom You say some pretty sound things, however, do you believe the vessels of mercy, the elect of God chosen in Christ before the foundation Eph 1:4 were at one time destined to eternal hell ? To me that sounds like the plight of the vessels of wrath,, destined to hell.

Click to expand...

To answer your question directly, of course the Bible teaches that,
after the fall of Adam, ALL MEN are born spiritually DEAD and slaves
in Satan's "Kingdom of Babylon", and as slaves of Satan, they are
all destined to the SAME fire prepared for Satan and his demons
[Mat 25:41]


However, before the foundation of the world, God "choose" or
"elected" who He wanted to save, based ONLY on His own Good
Pleasure and NOT upon anything that person would do during their
lifetime. And God provided a Savior for "His sheep"... Jesus came
to save "His people" from their sins. Since that was God's
intention... we can actually say that those people were saved
BEFORE the foundation of the world (because God cannot fail),
so IN THAT SENSE they were CREATED as "vessels of mercy".


It was in THIS SENSE that God teaches that some men were
NEVER MEANT to be saved since they could not "perceive" or
"understand" the Gospel (like the seed among the bad soils),
so they were NEVER MEANT to "be converted" or to ever
"have their sins forgiven"... obviously being NEVER MEANT
to "have their sins forgiven" means they were NEVER MEANT
to be saved (in this sense they were CREATED "vessels of wrath"
[Mark 4:11-12]


In THIS SENSE God also discusses men who were NEVER MEANT
to be saved. He talks about HATING some men before they are
even born. He talks about "electing" who He has "choosen", NOT
because of what that man wants or does, but to show the PURPOSE
of "election" is only on a Sovereign God. He talks about having
MERCY on some men (the vessels of mercy or honor) and NOT
showing MERCY to others, who are not "chosen" or "elected"
(the vessels of wrath and dishonor). So, it is in THIS SENSE that
God can say those (not chosen for mercy) were CREATED for
the same destruction as Satan and the demons and ALL THOSE
within Satan's "Kingdom"... just like Mark 11:12 we are talking
about people who were NEVER MEANT to be saved. They were
NEVER MEANT to "perceive" or "understand" the Gospel and
they were NEVER MEANT to "be converted" or ever be able to
"have their sins forgiven". As this is the PURPOSE of "election",
God shows mercy on WHOM HE WILL and does not on others.



It is IN THIS SENSE that Jesus taught salvation by "election"
[John 6] when He revealed that NO MAN can ever come to Him
unless the Father "draws them" and ALL MEN the Father draws
"shall come" to Him... and He would lose NONE of them. Jesus
was simply preaching the same thing as Mark 4 and Romans 9...
that some men were NEVER MEANT to be saved. IN THIS SENSE,
since they were NEVER MEANT to be "vessels of mercy" they
were (in a very real sense) CREATED to be "vessels of wrath".
We (the sons of Adam) are ALL destined to eternal torment and
ONLY those "elected" to mercy were CREATED to be saved,
while all others are CREATED (or destined) to wrath.


I hope I communicated this Biblical Fact clearly enough.
Please do not hesitate to ask follow-up questions if there
is something I left out or did not explain clearly.


Jim

5 king

This is when the Lord takes a "long journey" while Satan RULES during the Great Tribulation/Revelation Beast... The Lord does not
Return until AFTER the "Final Harvest" and "marriage supper"

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So exactly when is the marriage supper ? Is that before the 2nd coming of Christ in your opinion ? Who attends it ?

5th king

To answer your question directly, of course the Bible teaches that,
after the fall of Adam, ALL MEN are born spiritually DEAD and slaves
in Satan's "Kingdom of Babylon", and as slaves of Satan

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Agreed

and as slaves of Satan, they are
all destined to the SAME fire prepared for Satan and his demons
[Mat 25:41]

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Disagree

God has always had them reserved for His Kingdom Matt 25:34

34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

Rom 9 23
23 and that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

This mercy on the elect is from everlasting to everlasting Ps 103 17

But the mercy of the Lord is from everlasting to everlasting upon them that fear him, and his righteousness unto children’s children;

The Elect were saved from hell, wrath in the Eternal Purpose of God. Grace had been given them in Christ Jesus before the world began 2 Tim 1:9

9 who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

Their Salvaic interest was always secure in the Divine Purpose inspite of the sinfulness they incurred in Adam.

Brightfame52 said:

So exactly when is the marriage supper ? Is that before the 2nd coming of Christ in your opinion ? Who attends it ?

Click to expand...

I only have a few minutes - so I will just show you some TEXT
and you can try to discern the context. I will be available to
answer follow-up questions late tonight or tomorrow.


Mat 25:10
And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came;
and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage:
and the door was shut.



Rev 19:7
Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him:
for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.


Rev 19:9
And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.


Rev 19:17
And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;


Jim

Brightfame52 said:

Disagree
God has always had them reserved for His Kingdom Matt 25:34

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While there is not doubt they were all to "inherit" the Kingdom,
there is also no doubt they were all born spiritually DEAD and,
until regenerated, destined to hell. Of course I already said that
IN ONE SENSE we can say they were actually SAVED before the
foundation of the world when God "elected" them because God
cannot fail to do what He has purposed... but when they were
BORN they were NOT regenerated (some exceptions like
John the Baptist). And you ADMIT this in the verses
YOU QUOTED... I will highlight the key in RED.



34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:


They had to COME... they were not there as "natural man"


Rom 9 23
23 and that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,


Having been "PREPARED" for the "ADOPTION"
does NOT mean you were BORN already justified.


This mercy on the elect is from everlasting to everlasting Ps 103 17


I do not dispute the MERCY was given when "elected"...
however they were still BORN spiritually DEAD and God
had to "draw them" to Jesus [Jn 6]

Now it is true that ALL God "draws" to Jesus
"shall come" to Jesus and He will lose NONE.
But they still had to be "drawn" to be Saved.

The fact they were "elect" insured it would happen
AT SOME POINT in their lives... maybe as a child,
maybe as a young adult, maybe on their deathbed.
By "electing" someone God only insured they
WOULD BE "drawn"... it does not mean they
were BORN "drawn".


But the mercy of the Lord is from everlasting to everlasting upon them that fear him, and his righteousness unto children’s children;

The Elect were saved from hell, wrath in the Eternal Purpose of God. Grace had been given them in Christ Jesus before the world began 2 Tim 1:9

9 who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

Their Salvaic interest was always secure in the Divine Purpose inspite of the sinfulness they incurred in Adam.[/QUOTE]


I have already said that we were EFFECTIVELY SAVED when
we were elected... but LOOK at verse 9 (that YOU quoted)
the elect still need to be "called" before they are justified.

Maybe this will help:
Notice that BEING CALLED is part of the salvation process.
All the elect go through it.... but we are not "Justified" until
after we are "called".


I have to go... we can talk more later - Jim


Rom 8:28-31
And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?


.

5thKingdom said:

While there is not doubt they were all to "inherit" the Kingdom,
there is also no doubt they were all born spiritually DEAD and,
until regenerated, destined to hell. Of course I already said that
IN ONE SENSE we can say they were actually SAVED before the
foundation of the world when God "elected" them because God
cannot fail to do what He has purposed... but when they were
BORN they were NOT regenerated (some exceptions like
John the Baptist). And you ADMIT this in the verses
YOU QUOTED... I will highlight the key in RED.



34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:


They had to COME... they were not there as "natural man"


Rom 9 23
23 and that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,


Having been "PREPARED" for the "ADOPTION"
does NOT mean you were BORN already justified.


This mercy on the elect is from everlasting to everlasting Ps 103 17


I do not dispute the MERCY was given when "elected"...
however they were still BORN spiritually DEAD and God
had to "draw them" to Jesus [Jn 6]

Now it is true that ALL God "draws" to Jesus
"shall come" to Jesus and He will lose NONE.
But they still had to be "drawn" to be Saved.

The fact they were "elect" insured it would happen
AT SOME POINT in their lives... maybe as a child,
maybe as a young adult, maybe on their deathbed.
By "electing" someone God only insured they
WOULD BE "drawn"... it does not mean they
were BORN "drawn".


But the mercy of the Lord is from everlasting to everlasting upon them that fear him, and his righteousness unto children’s children;

The Elect were saved from hell, wrath in the Eternal Purpose of God. Grace had been given them in Christ Jesus before the world began 2 Tim 1:9

9 who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

Their Salvaic interest was always secure in the Divine Purpose inspite of the sinfulness they incurred in Adam.

Click to expand...

I have already said that we were EFFECTIVELY SAVED when
we were elected... but LOOK at verse 9 (that YOU quoted)
the elect still need to be "called" before they are justified.

Maybe this will help:
Notice that BEING CALLED is part of the salvation process.
All the elect go through it.... but we are not "Justified" until
after we are "called".


I have to go... we can talk more later - Jim


Rom 8:28-31
And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?


.[/QUOTE]
I know the elect are born unconverted sinners and unbelievers like the non elect, but thats what makes them vessels of mercy, not destined to eternal fire, you are inconsistent in this matter. You also have God changing His Mind and Purpose from ordaining them to hell fire to Heirs of Salvation.

Brightfame52 said:

I have already said that we were EFFECTIVELY SAVED when
we were elected... but LOOK at verse 9 (that YOU quoted)
the elect still need to be "called" before they are justified.

Maybe this will help:
Notice that BEING CALLED is part of the salvation process.
All the elect go through it.... but we are not "Justified" until
after we are "called".


I have to go... we can talk more later - Jim


Rom 8:28-31
And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?


.

Click to expand...

I know the elect are born unconverted sinners and unbelievers like the non elect, but thats what makes them vessels of mercy, not destined to eternal fire, you are inconsistent in this matter. You also have God changing His Mind and Purpose from ordaining them to hell fire to Heirs of Salvation.

double post

Butterball1 said:

I NEVER said Jesus was not the Saviour of all men.

What I did say was that people under different dispensations were not saved the same way.....as I pointed out in my last post.

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This would totally be in disagreement with all that Paul wrote and preached.

Acts 26:6 - And now it is because of my hope in what God has promised our ancestors that I am on trial today.

iow, what God has promised was eternal life.

Acts 26:22-23 -
22 But God has helped me to this very day; so I stand here and testify to small and great alike. I am saying nothing beyond what the prophets and Moses said would happen—
23 that the Messiah would suffer and, as the first to rise from the dead, would bring the message of light to his own people and to the Gentiles.”

Paul proved that Jesus was the Messiah from "the Scriptures". From the moment he wa saved. Acts 9:20 - At once he began to preach in the synagogues that Jesus is the Son of God.

Acts 20:22 - Yet Saul grew more and more powerful and baffled the Jews living in Damascus by proving that Jesus is the Messiah.

Paul only had the OT to preach from. His message of salvation said "nothing beyond what the prophets and Moses said would happen", 26:22-23.

The verses are many that show water baptism saves, Mark 16:16; Acts 2:38; Colossians 2:11-12; 1 Peter 3:21 for a few.

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None of these verses says that. In fact, the premier evangelist of all time, the apostle Paul, said this about baptism:

1 Cor 1:17 - For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel—not with wisdom and eloquence, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power.

Kind of a weird comment to make IF IF IF water baptism was necessary for salvation.

If baptism were necessary for salvation, Paul sure got it wrong. He would have emphasized water baptism along with his preaching the good news to believe in Christ.

And don't forget his answer to the jailer in Acts 16:30,31
30 He then brought them out and asked, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?”
31 They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved—you and your household.”

Yes, he did baptize the jailer. But v.31 clearly precludes water baptism for salvation.

Brightfame52 said:

I know the elect are born unconverted sinners and unbelievers like the non elect, but thats what makes them vessels of mercy, not destined to eternal fire, you are inconsistent in this matter. You also have God changing His Mind and Purpose from ordaining them to hell fire to Heirs of Salvation.

Click to expand...

No, I am not inconsistent at all... while born DEAD they were still born
as "vessels of mercy" in that they WOULD receive mercy at some point
in their life.


And no, I am not saying God "changed His mind" at all.
Only that He had already "chosen" and "predestined" that they would
be "vessels of mercy"... but that is "mercy" FROM remaining DEAD.


I would submit we are spitting hairs.
When they are born DEAD they are destined to eternal fire.
However, because they were "elected" they would never have to
experience that eternal fire because they had a Savior that did.


So I see you point... I argue we were actually SAVED when we
were "elected" before the foundation of the world because God
cannot fail to accomplish what He has purposed.


However, we are STILL born DEAD.
Frankly, I see this as a distinction without difference.
I did not say they were ever "children of Satan", which would
apply to all those not "elected"... but they are still born DEAD
and SLAVES in Satan's Kingdom UNTIL they are called. And
that might be at age 5 or 25 or 55 or on their deathbed.

Again, Romans 8 requires they "be called" BEFORE they
become "vessels of mercy" They are called from the DEAD,
that is what MAKES them "vessels of mercy". The "vessels of wrath"
are NEVER CALLED.


Rom 8:28-31
And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?

In any case, I am not interested in further argument on this
issue as I see nothing productive coming from it. Again, I see
this as a difference without distinction.


Jim

Ivan Hlavanda said:

39 One of the criminals who were hanged railed at him, saying, “Are you not the Christ? Save yourself and us!” 40 But the other rebuked him, saying, “Do you not fear God, since you are under the same sentence of condemnation? 41 And we indeed justly, for we are receiving the due reward of our deeds; but this man has done nothing wrong.” 42 And he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.” 43 And he said to him, “Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in paradise.” (Luke 23:39-43)

If salvation was by deeds, or including deeds, then what good deeds did this criminal do, and why is he in Heaven? Salvation is through Christ and Christ alone!!!

Click to expand...

He confessed Christ.

Ivan Hlavanda said: ↑
If salvation was by deeds, or including deeds, then what good deeds did this criminal do, and why is he in Heaven? Salvation is through Christ and Christ alone!!!

Click to expand...

Gracia Singh said:

He confessed Christ.

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Of course, "confessing Christ" is not a WORK at all...
it is the RESULT (the "fruit") of having ALREADY been
"born again" (regenerated).


Joh 3:3
Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.


1Co_2:14
But the NATURAL MAN [before regeneration] receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him:
neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.


Jim

5th king

No, I am not inconsistent at all... while born DEAD they were still born
as "vessels of mercy" in that they WOULD receive mercy at some point
in their life.

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Yes you are. You have the vessels of mercy ordained to hell. For what ?

And no, I am not saying God "changed His mind" at all.
Only that He had already "chosen" and "predestined" that they would
be "vessels of mercy"... but that is "mercy" FROM remaining DEAD.

Click to expand...

Its more than that, its mercy also for their sins Heb 8:12

12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

In fact I would argue that vessels of mercy will not have their sins imputed to them Rom 4:7-8

7 saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. 8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

I would submit we are spitting hairs.
When they are born DEAD they are destined to eternal fire.
However, because they were "elected" they would never have to
experience that eternal fire because they had a Savior that did.

Click to expand...

I disagree that its just splitting hairs, I believe its a inconsistency, a lapse in judgment on this important detail.

So I see you point... I argue we were actually SAVED when we
were "elected" before the foundation of the world because God
cannot fail to accomplish what He has purposed.

Click to expand...

Exactly and never appointed to wrath as others 1 Thess 5:9

9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, 10 who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

Your statement contradicts that blessed truth.

However, we are STILL born DEAD.
Frankly, I see this as a distinction without difference.
I did not say they were ever "children of Satan", which would
apply to all those not "elected"... but they are still born DEAD
and SLAVES in Satan's Kingdom UNTIL they are called. And
that might be at age 5 or 25 or 55 or on their deathbed.

Click to expand...

No problem with this statement

Again, Romans 8 requires they "be called" BEFORE they
become "vessels of mercy" They are called from the DEAD,
that is what MAKES them "vessels of mercy". The "vessels of wrath"
are NEVER CALLED.

Click to expand...

I disagree with this, the part about not being vessels of mercy until called. I believe the elect are orn into the world as sinful vessels of mercy. However they will be called.

Rom 8:28-31
And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?

Click to expand...

I have no problem with this for sure !

In any case, I am not interested in further argument on this
issue as I see nothing productive coming from it. Again, I see
this as a difference without distinction.

Click to expand...

No problem, but may God make you consistent in this matter.

Ivan Hlavanda said:

39 One of the criminals who were hanged railed at him, saying, “Are you not the Christ? Save yourself and us!” 40 But the other rebuked him, saying, “Do you not fear God, since you are under the same sentence of condemnation? 41 And we indeed justly, for we are receiving the due reward of our deeds; but this man has done nothing wrong.” 42 And he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.” 43 And he said to him, “Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in paradise.” (Luke 23:39-43)

If salvation was by deeds, or including deeds, then what good deeds did this criminal do, and why is he in Heaven? Salvation is through Christ and Christ alone!!!

Click to expand...

It’s been my experience that most Christians do not actually teach that salvation is the result of deeds, they’re most often simply accused of teaching it.

5thKingdom said:

while born DEAD they were still born as "vessels of mercy" in that they WOULD receive mercy at some point
in their life.

Click to expand...

Romans 11:32 says this:

" For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all."

...so that God may have mercy on them ALL.

No, I am not inconsistent at all... while born DEAD they were still
born as "vessels of mercy" in that they WOULD receive mercy
at some point in their life.

Brightfame52 said:

Yes you are. You have the vessels of mercy ordained to hell. For what ?

Click to expand...

First, it's not "ordained" to hell. You ADDED THAT.
It's "destined" to hell UNTIL they are "born again"


Nothing inconsistent about that, ALL MEN are destined to hell
UNLESS/UNTIL they are "born again"... WHY is that?
Because ALL MEN are born DEAD in Satan's Kingdom
and require the "translation" from Death into Life
which ONLY HAPPENS when they are "born again".

Jim
And no, I am not saying God "changed His mind" at all.
Only that He had already "chosen" and "predestined"
that they would be "vessels of mercy"...
but that is "mercy" FROM remaining DEAD (in sin).

Click to expand...

Its more than that, its mercy also for their sins Heb 8:12

Click to expand...

Of course it is "mercy" (actually "forgiveness") for their sins.
First, when they (and all men) were born, they were DEAD in sin.
Then, after they (the elect) are "born again" they are ALIVE and
their sins are forgiven - because they have a Savior.

Jim
I would submit we are spitting hairs.
When they are born DEAD they are destined to eternal fire.
However, because they were "elected" they would never have to
experience that eternal fire because they had a Savior that did.

Click to expand...

I disagree that its just splitting hairs, I believe its a inconsistency, a lapse in judgment on this important detail.

Click to expand...

Well, you can "believe" it is an inconsistency but:
(1) You failed to explain WHY it is inconsistent and
(2) You failed to provide Scripture to support your "belief"

Jim
So I see your point... I argue we were actually SAVED when we
were "elected" before the foundation of the world because God
cannot fail to accomplish what He has purposed.

Click to expand...

Exactly and never appointed to wrath as others 1 Thess 5:9

Click to expand...

Again, I will remind you I NEVER said "appointed to wrath"
that is something that YOU ADDED to my words.
I said we are (all) Born spiritually DEAD
and "destined" to hell unless/until
we are "born again".

Your statement contradicts that blessed truth.

Click to expand...

No, your ADDITION to my words (we are "appointed to wrath")
contradicts Scripture. Which is WHY I never said that.

Jim
Again, Romans 8 requires they "be called" BEFORE they
become "vessels of mercy" They are called from the DEAD,
that is what MAKES them "vessels of mercy".

The "vessels of wrath" are NEVER CALLED.

Click to expand...

I disagree with this, the part about not being vessels of mercy until called.

Click to expand...

You can disagree all you want... it does not make it True/Correct.
Just answer me this: If they are NEVER CALLED are they
"vessels of mercy"? Romans 8 proves you wrong.
Salvation BEGINS with the elect being CALLED.


Yes, theoretically, we are SAVED when we are "elected"
because God can never fail in what He has purposed.


However, the PROCESS of being saved "born again"
BEGINS when we are "called". The Bible is very
clear on the PROCESS of salvation in Rom 8


Rom 8:28-31 (the PROCESS of the salvation of the elect)

And we know that all things work together for good to them that
love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
For whom he did foreknow [elected], he also did predestinate
to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn
among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he
also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: [forgave
their sins by the righteousness of Christ our Savior] and whom he
justified, them he also glorified [with an incorruptible spiritual body
that is eternal] What shall we [the elect] then say to these things?
If God be for us [the called], who can be against us?


You see... the PROCESS of salvation did not start/end at election.
Yes, God would not FAIL to save His elect... but there is a PROCESS.
And this is PROVEN in the fact/reality that the elect are called/drawn
("born again") at different times in their lives.... and UNTIL we are
"born again" we are not ACTUALLY SAVED ("vessels of mercy")

I believe the elect are orn into the world as sinful vessels of mercy. However they will be called.

Click to expand...

You can believe whatever you want... that does NOT make
it Biblical or True. As demonstrated in Romans 8, the elect
do not EXPERIENCE the PROCESS of salvation, they are
NOT "born again" until they are CALLED.


We are all BORN spiritually DEAD.
If you want to call spiritually DEAD a "vessel of mercy"
be my guest. But you contradict Romans 8 showing there is
a PROCESS the elect go through to BECOME "vessels of mercy"

No problem, but may God make you consistent in this matter.

Click to expand...

You can be consistently WRONG if you want.
I have been consistently BIBLICAL in understanding the PROCESS
of receiving "mercy" (being a "vessel of mercy") begins when we
(elect) are CALLED and BORN AGAIN.


Only THEN (after being called and born again) are we JUSTIFIED
and GLORIFIED.


Do not make the mistake of thinking that Biblical Truth
is LIMITED to what YOU understand.


But, as I already said... I am not interested in "splitting hairs"
because (theoretically) we are actually SAVED when "elected"
since God cannot fail to save His elect. But make no mistake
there is an actual PROCESS to that salvation... whether you want
to acknowledge that Biblical reality or not.


Jim

5thKingdom said:

No, I am not inconsistent at all... while born DEAD they were still
born as "vessels of mercy" in that they WOULD receive mercy
at some point in their life.





First, it's not "ordained" to hell. You ADDED THAT.
It's "destined" to hell UNTIL they are "born again"


Nothing inconsistent about that, ALL MEN are destined to hell
UNLESS/UNTIL they are "born again"... WHY is that?
Because ALL MEN are born DEAD in Satan's Kingdom
and require the "translation" from Death into Life
which ONLY HAPPENS when they are "born again".








Of course it is "mercy" (actually "forgiveness") for their sins.
First, when they (and all men) were born, they were DEAD in sin.
Then, after they (the elect) are "born again" they are ALIVE and
their sins are forgiven - because they have a Savior.








Well, you can "believe" it is an inconsistency but:
(1) You failed to explain WHY it is inconsistent and
(2) You failed to provide Scripture to support your "belief"








Again, I will remind you I NEVER said "appointed to wrath"
that is something that YOU ADDED to my words.
I said we are (all) Born spiritually DEAD
and "destined" to hell unless/until
we are "born again".






No, your ADDITION to my words (we are "appointed to wrath")
contradicts Scripture. Which is WHY I never said that.








You can disagree all you want... it does not make it True/Correct.
Just answer me this: If they are NEVER CALLED are they
"vessels of mercy"? Romans 8 proves you wrong.
Salvation BEGINS with the elect being CALLED.


Yes, theoretically, we are SAVED when we are "elected"
because God can never fail in what He has purposed.


However, the PROCESS of being saved "born again"
BEGINS when we are "called". The Bible is very
clear on the PROCESS of salvation in Rom 8


Rom 8:28-31 (the PROCESS of the salvation of the elect)

And we know that all things work together for good to them that
love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
For whom he did foreknow [elected], he also did predestinate
to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn
among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he
also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: [forgave
their sins by the righteousness of Christ our Savior] and whom he
justified, them he also glorified [with an incorruptible spiritual body
that is eternal] What shall we [the elect] then say to these things?
If God be for us [the called], who can be against us?


You see... the PROCESS of salvation did not start/end at election.
Yes, God would not FAIL to save His elect... but there is a PROCESS.
And this is PROVEN in the fact/reality that the elect are called/drawn
("born again") at different times in their lives.... and UNTIL we are
"born again" we are not ACTUALLY SAVED ("vessels of mercy")





You can believe whatever you want... that does NOT make
it Biblical or True. As demonstrated in Romans 8, the elect
do not EXPERIENCE the PROCESS of salvation, they are
NOT "born again" until they are CALLED.


We are all BORN spiritually DEAD.
If you want to call spiritually DEAD a "vessel of mercy"
be my guest. But you contradict Romans 8 showing there is
a PROCESS the elect go through to BECOME "vessels of mercy"






You can be consistently WRONG if you want.
I have been consistently BIBLICAL in understanding the PROCESS
of receiving "mercy" (being a "vessel of mercy") begins when we
(elect) are CALLED and BORN AGAIN.


Only THEN (after being called and born again) are we JUSTIFIED
and GLORIFIED.


Do not make the mistake of thinking that Biblical Truth
is LIMITED to what YOU understand.


But, as I already said... I am not interested in "splitting hairs"
because (theoretically) we are actually SAVED when "elected"
since God cannot fail to save His elect. But make no mistake
there is an actual PROCESS to that salvation... whether you want
to acknowledge that Biblical reality or not.


Jim

Click to expand...

It is more than splitting hairs it is outright heretical and makes God mutable . You are inconsistent in this matter. The election of Grace were never destined to hell!

Brightfame52 said:

It is more than splitting hairs it is outright heretical and makes God mutable . You are inconsistent in this matter. The election of Grace were never destined to hell!

Click to expand...

So you are saying all those NOT elected are born spiritually DEAD
and slaves in Satan's Kingdom...


But those who WERE elected are NOT born spiritually DEAD
and slaves in Satan's Kingdom, even though they LOVE their sins
for 20 or 40 or 60 years BEFORE they are "born again" and they
are FINALLY "called" and "indwelt" and (wait for it.....) SAVED!


No wait... are you actually saying the elect do not NEED
to be "born again" or "indwelt"... is THAT what you think?


Please show me ONE VERSE in the Bible that teaches the elect
are NOT born spiritually DEAD and slaves in Satan's Kingdom.
Or... the elect DO NOT NEED to be "called" or "indwelt".


I am sorry that the True Gospel "offends" you so much.
And I am sorry that you REJECT what Romans 8 clearly says.
I showed you Romans 8 as it shows the PROCESS of salvation...
but you REJECT what the passage says based on your "feelings".


So I will wait for you to find ONE VERSE that teaches the elect
are NOT born spiritually DEAD and slaves in Satan's Kingdom,
or that the elect do NOT NEED to be "called" or "born again"
(but I won't hold my breath because no such verse exists)


You are now preaching the "gospel" of your "feelings"
and not the Gospel of Scripture.


Listen, I realize you will just REJECT Scriptures that contradict
your personal "feelings" (as you did with Romans 8) but here
are a few verses that contradict your "feelings". You can now
THINK about the Gospel of the Bible while you SEARCH the
Scriptures trying to find ONE VERSE to support your "feelings".


Eph 2:1
And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;


Eph 2:4-5
But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us
together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved).


Eph 1:13-14
In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth,
the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed,
ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the
earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the
purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.


Joh 3:3
Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily,
I say unto thee, Except a man be born again,
he cannot see the kingdom of God.


Really... I could go on all day showing you verses that contradict
your "feelings" about the elect NOT being born spiritually dead and
the elect NOT needing to be "called" by the Gospel and the elect
NOT needing to be "indwelt" with the Holy Spirit... but let's just
see if you can find ONE VERSE to support your "feelings" heresy.


Jim

There's more to salvation than a ticket to heaven. When a person is saved they receive the Holy Spirit and something happens as a result of that. One can't be saved and have nothing happen as a result of that. I believe when someone is saved and has the Holy Spirit, they automatically produce good works, that they might not even be aware of performing.