I said: "those categories [do] not correspond to the man-made categories of moral, civil, and ceremonial law" You said: "but disagree that there is no categories that include moral laws, ceremonial laws or civil laws under the old covenant" For example, mishpat is a subcategory of law that is used by the Bible, and into that category you could place laws such as the one against kidnapping, which is a moral and civil law, so I was not saying that there are no categories that include moral, civil, or ceremonial laws however, as a whole, the subcategory of mishpat does not correspond to what you've defied as moral, civil, or ceremonial law. Primarily, the subcategory of moral law implies that the laws in the other categories are not moral laws, but there is no such implication in the subcategories that are used by the Bible, so your use of the moral subcategory of law completely invalidates correspondence to any of the subcategories used by the Bible, which is not to deny that they contain moral laws.
Well not really dear friend but let me explain why. You do agree already in this post here and elsewhere that the example of mishpat can include civil, ceremonial or moral laws right? In fact it includes all law both divine and human it is not a category of law so to speak it is a judgement normally based on law. The Hebrew word meaning of
mishpat is a judgement or the act of judging it is normally applied to all of Gods' laws or human law which are the
standard of judgement having application to God's judgements.
So it is
not a category of law so to speak as it is more about judging or carrying out judgement based on law and law being the
standard of judgement given by God or by man in civil law. The law is the
standard of mishpat (judgment) not a category of mishpat. Some example of Gods' judgement are the blessings and curses *Deuteronomy 11:26-32, listed in Deuteronomy 27 and Deuteronomy 28 which are God's judgement of the blessings for following God's law and the curses for not following Gods' law.
You have already agreed that there is scripture that shows that there is civil, ceremonial and moral laws. Scripture support for these laws, including their definitions have already been given in
post # 14 linked. Now what is it your trying to argue? Are you trying to argue there is no civil, ceremonial and moral laws in Torah when you have been shown through the scriptures that there is?
If you agree that morality is in regard to what we ought to do, that we ought to obey God, that therefore all of God's laws are inherently moral laws, then that undermines the position that some of God's laws that you have decided are ceremonial laws are not moral laws. There can be circumstances that temporarily cause God's eternal laws to not be applicable, such not offering animal sacrifices while there is no temple until there is a 3rd temple built (Ezekiel 44-46), however, we should always live in a way that points to the sacrifice of the Messiah for the sins of the world by following the laws that do that, so that is not a good reason for why those laws are not applicable. God's holy days are important foreshadows that testify about Messiah, so we shouldn't let anyone judge us for keeping them (Colossians 2:16-17).
As posted earlier, morality is indeed what we ought to do but what we ought to do in the old covenant is not the same as what we ought to do now in the new covenant
Hebrews 7:1-28;
Hebrews 8:1-13;
Hebrews 9:1-28 and
Hebrews 10:1-17,
Colossians 2:14-17 etc.
We are in the new covenant now not the old covenant. The "shadow laws" that point to Jesus have been fulfilled at his coming as God's true sacrifice for the sins of the world *John 1:29;36, our great high Priest who ministers on our behalf in the heavenly Sanctuary made without hands of which the earthly was only a copy *Hebrews 7:14-22; Hebrews 8:1-13. To deny the very Christ to which the "
shadow laws" of the old covenant point to and continue in these "shadow laws" is to deny the very Christ to who they point to.
The new covenant is based on better promises and is not the same as the old covenant laws for remission of sin *Hebrews 8:8-13. Where I have a problem with your statement here is that the scriptures no longer teach that all the Mosaic shadow laws (Sanctuary, Priesthood, animal sacrifices and sin offerings) for remission of sins under the old covenant are a requirement for believers under the new covenant.
Therefore for if in the new covenant we are not to seek forgiveness of sin through faith in the God's lamb of God and no longer do animal sacrifice for sins and Jesus is now our great high Priest ministering on our behalf in the heavenly Sanctuary not made with hands of which the earth was only a copy, then to reject Gods' Word in the new covenant in order to practice the "
shadow laws" of the old covenant it is easy to see that this is
not how we ought to obey God and therefore no longer a moral law under the new covenant dispensation that we are now living after the death and resurrection of Jesus.
What I tried to outline in the last two posts is that "
all the prophetic shadow laws" from the Mosaic book of the law under the "
old covenant" for remission of sins are
no longer applicable to "
how we ought to obey God" so therefore they cannot be argued to be moral law as they are fulfilled in the new covenant to which they pointed to.
In 1 Corinthians 5:6-8, it Paul did not conclude by saying that keeping Passover denies Christ and is no longer applicable, but rather he concluded by saying that we should therefore continue to keep the Feast, so keeping Passover is testifying that was it teaches us about the Messiah is true while refusing to keep Passover is bearing false witness against the Messiah and is the denial of the Christ to which they point.
For me personally, I think its a great thing and honorable that people want to keep the Feast days
but as long as they understand that they are "shadows" and what they point to. Of course JESUS is all in all and it is these shadows that point to our Lord that the prophets desired to see yet we all with open face behold him who, loves us and are changed into His image. Paul does not say anywhere that not keeping the Passover is a false witness against the Messiah and a denial of Christ to which it points to.
Paul is showing in 1 Corinthians 5:6-8 that the Passover is a "shadow law" pointing to JESUS as the paschal lamp of God that is our only protection when the destroyer comes through and puts an end to sin and we are to purge out the leaven of false teachings because now Christ or true Passover is sacrificed for us. Paul goes on bringing the shadows to the new by saying "wherefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth". We now keep the Passover in Christ as God's true paschal lamb in sincerity and in truth according to the new covenant Word of God *John 17:17 revealed in Christ *John 14:6.
Jesus fulfilled the Mosaic Law by spending his ministry teaching how to obey it by word and by example, which has nothing to do with causing it to no longer be applicable. Jesus did not establish the New Covenant in order to undermine anything that he spent his ministry teaching by word or by example, but rather the New Covenant still involves following the Mosaic Law (Jeremiah 31:33, Hebrews 8:1-13, Ezekiel 36:26-27). In Titus 2:14, Jesus gave himself to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works, so being coming zealous for doing good works in obedience to the Mosaic Law is what it looks like to believe in the Christ that it points to (Acts 21:20), while to refuse to submit the Mosaic Law and to go back to the lawlessness that Jesus gave himself to redeem us from is the denial of the Christ that it points to.
Jesus says in John 5:39-40 "You search the scriptures, because you think that in them you have eternal life; and these are they which bear witness of me; and you will not come to me, that ye may have life". This is an interesting scripture. It was the
"shadow laws" for remission of sins under the old covenant (Sanctuary laws, Priesthood laws, animal sacrifices and sin offerings; annual Feast days) that testified of Jesus.
The old testament further says Sacrifice and offering you did not desire; my ears have you opened: burnt offering and sin offering have you not required. Then said I, See, I come: in the
volume of the book it is written of me, I delight to do your will, O my God: yes, your law is within my heart *Psalms 40:6-8; Hebrews 10:7.
The old testament "shadow laws" for remission of sin all pointed to Jesus as God's coming sacrifice for the sins of the world under the old covenant. Jesus said to the Jew that they searched the scriptures to find eternal life and it was these very scriptures that pointed to him John 5:39 yet he came unto his own but his own did not receive him as it was written in John 1:1-4.
These teachers of the law denied the very Christ that the law and the prophets of the old covenant pointed to because they did not see that the laws for remission of sins they were following were only shadow laws pointing to Jesus as the Savior of the world. Lets pray dear friend we do not find ourselves in the position of those under the old covenant who followed the laws for remission of sins but failed to understand what these laws pointed to.
Where I believe your post falls down here, is that according to the scriptures Jesus had to fulfill
all scripture under the old covenant before he could be our perfect sacrifice for sin. The new covenant did
not take place until after the death and resurrection of Jesus as the Christ and Savior of the world as the new covenant is based on the blood of Christ and his death for our sins *Hebrews 10:29; 1 Corinthians 11:25; Mathew 26:28.
In Exodus 20:6, God wanted His people to love Him and obey His commandments, in 1 John 5:3, to love God is to obey His commandments, which are not burdensome, and there are many other verses in both the OT and the NT that associate our obedience to God's commandments with our love for Him, while there is not a single verse that states that we do not love God by continuing to obey His commandments. We should live in a way that points towards Jesus by obeying God's laws rather than a way that points away from him. God's laws were given to testify about Jesus (John 5:39), so we do not reject Jesus by testifying about him, but just the opposite.
True this is what I have only posted on in my discussion to you. What I am asking you to prayerfully consider though based on the scriptures in the old and new testament is "are we obeying God by seeking to follow old covenant "
shadow laws" for remission of sins when the very Christ that they point to has emerged from the shadows? We are now in a the new covenant made with better promises. Jesus is God's true sacrifice for sin that the "shadow laws" of the old covenant pointed to and Jesus is also now our true Great High Priest ministering on our behalf in the heavenly Sanctuary made without hands in the presence of God for us. Remember we do not want to make the same mistakes as those who knew the law but did not know who the law testified of in John 5:39; John 1:1-4
Again, Colossians 2:14-17 and Hebrews 10:1 do not say that they are foreshadows of what has already arrived, but rather they say that they are foreshadows of what is to come, and both were written after Jesus had arrived. We should live in a way that testifies about what is to come, but even if those verses had stated that they are fore shadows of what has already arrived, then we should live in a way that testifies that Jesus has arrived by obeying those laws rather than a way that denies that he has arrived by refusing to keep them. God's word commands us to keep God's holy days, so refusing to keep them is rejecting God's Word. We can't follow Christ by refusing to follow what he taught by word and by example. In Hebrew 8:10, the New Covenant still involves following God's law, not rejecting it.
This is more repetition that has been addressed earlier in other posts dear friend. Again as posted earlier, Paul states in
Colossians 2:17 in context to
Colossians 2:16 and the annual Feasts that they are shadows of the things to come; but the body is Christ's. Not all the Feast have their complete fulfillment (eg. Day of atonement -
Yom Kippur; Feast of Tabernacles or booths -
Sukkot; Feast of week -
Shavuot ) as Jesus has not returned. Some feats have their fulfillment in the body of Christ to which they pointed to (Passover and Feast of Firstfruits) *
1 Corinthians 5:7-8;
1 Corinthians 15:20 etc. Paul in
Hebrews 10:1 is showing that the old testament laws for remission of sins were shadows of good things to come and says " For the law having a shadow of the good things to come, not the very image of the things, can never with the same sacrifices year by year, which they offer continually, make perfect them that draw nigh. Then goes on to show in
Hebrews 10:2-10 how these laws
are "
fulfilled" in Christ. These scriptures show that the "shadow laws" for remission of sins from the old covenant are fulfilled in "the body of Christ" in the new covenant. They also show that there are others to be fulfilled in the future as posted above.