klutedavid

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If you agree that the law grants knowledge of sin and that we should refrain from doing what God has given knowledge is sin, then you should agree that we should obey God's law.

In Deuteronomy 30:11-20, it says that God's law is not too difficult to obey and that obedience brings life and a blessing while disobedience brings death and a curse, so choose life! So it was presented as a possibility and as a choice, not as something that is impossible to do. Thinking that it is impossible would mean that God essentially gave the law to curse and condemn His children, which is expressing an extremely poor opinion of God. However, the reality is that God's law was given for our own good in order to bless us (Deuteronomy 6:24, 10:12-13). Likewise, in 1 John 5:3, to love God is to obey His commandments, which are not burdensome, so to deny that the law is possible to obey is to deny that anyone has ever loved God and to deny that they are not burdensome. Do you believe that nothing is impossible with God...except obeying His commands?

God's law is God's word, in Psalms 119:142, God's law is truth, and in John 17:17, it says to sanctify them in the truth and that God's word is truth.
The law grants the knowledge of sin. The law condemns. You have been crucified with Christ already!

Do you deny that you are a new creation in Christ?

Do you deny that you have been reconciled to the Father through Jesus Christ?

In Christ, you are fully justified and sanctified. There is no sin that leads to death but one.

I hope that you don't claim to be free from sin, nor that you obey the law.
 
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Soyeong

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Hi Soyeong, might break this down to a few smaller posts for convenience. These may be my last as I do not want to go offtopic to the OP.

You claim you agree with me that there are different subcategories of law in the old testament scriptures but that these do not correspond to moral, ceremonial or civil laws. I agree that there are many subcategories of law in the old testament but disagree that there is no categories that include moral laws, ceremonial laws or civil laws under the old covenant. That claim is not true and neither is it biblical as can be shown in the following scripture examples...

I did not claim that. Again, morality is in regard to what we ought to do and we ought to obey God, so all of the Mosaic laws are moral laws. Likewise, all of the Mosaic laws teach us how to testify about God's nature, and testify about God's nature is the basis of morality, so again all of Mosaic laws are inherently moral laws. So the subcategory of moral law is useless when all of the Mosaic laws belong in that category, but worse that that, it creates the false implication that the laws you've decided are civil and ceremonial are moral to disobey when there are no examples in the Bible of any of the Mosaic laws being considered to be moral to disobey. It creates the false impression that laws belong in only one of those three categories when all of the Mosaic laws belong under multiple of those categories. Furthermore, there is the problem of people creating their own doctrines out of those categories without showing that any of the authors of the Bible ever categorized the laws in that manner, such as saying that we don't need to obey what you have decided are ceremonial laws.

MORAL LAWS

Moral law as a definition are any law that has to do with "right doing" in regards to expressing our love to God and our fellow man. In the Hebrew of the Greek the term mostly used to express moral law is "righteousness". The Hebrew and Greek definitions provided below are the same as given above...

Hebrew and Greek Dictionaries w/TVM, Strong - G2239
ἦθος; ēthos A strengthened form of G1485; usage, that is, (plural) MORAL HABITS: - manners

Hebrew and Greek Dictionaries w/TVM, Strong -
Righteousness H6664; צדק tsedeq; tseh'-dek; From H6663; the right, natural, MORAL or legal); also (abstractly) equity or (figuratively) prosperity: - X even, (X that which is altogether) just (-ice), ([un-]) right (-eous) (cause, -ly, -ness).

RIGHTEOUSNESS is defined as the standard of MORAL RIGHT in the Hebrew which God’s Word defines as it directly in the scriptures as all of God's commandments *Psalms 119:172.

Scripture examples of moral laws..

God’s law written and spoken by God on two tables of stone (Exodus 32:16; Exodus 20:1) Exodus 20:3; Exodus 20:4-6; Exodus 20:7; Exodus 20:8-11; Exodus 20:12; Exodus 20:13; Exodus 20:14; Exodus 20:15; Exodus 20:16; Exodus 20:17. Moral laws written and spoken by Moses in the book of the law or covenant (Exodus 24:7; Deuteronomy 30:19) Leviticus 19:32; Deuteronomy 10:20; Leviticus 19:16-18; Leviticus 19:1-37 (most of which are expounding on God’s 10 commandments; Exodus 23:5; Deuteronomy 22:4; Exodus 22:21; Deuteronomy 24:19-21; Deuteronomy 15:7-11; Deuteronomy 10:19; Exodus 22:20; Exodus 21:15-17; Deuteronomy 23:18; Exodus 21:10; Deuteronomy 22:19; Leviticus 18:1-30; Exodus 23:1-12; Leviticus 25:14; 37; Matthew 22:36-40; Romans 13:8-10; James 2:8-12 etc etc…

.................

All of the laws that God has given are in regard to how to love God and our neighbor, which is why Jesus said that those are the greatest two commandments and that all of the other laws hang on them, so they are all connected. So all of the Mosaic laws are moral laws by the definition of "doing what is right in regards to expressing our love for God and our fellow man". I see no grounds for thinking that it can ever be moral to disobey God.

CEREMONIAL LAWS

Ceremonial laws as a definition (adjective meaning) are any laws that relate to ceremony, or external rite; ritual; according to the forms of established rites; as ceremonial exactness. It is particularly applied to the forms and rites of the Jewish religion; as the ceremonial law or worship, as distinguished from the moral and judicial law. The noun means outward form; external rite, or established forms or rites, including all the forms prescribed; a system of rules and ceremonies, enjoined by law. Hebrew definition is provided below has many meanings and it is context and application that determines the correct meaning in the scriptures...

Hebrew and Greek Dictionaries w/TVM, Strong -
Ceremonies H4941 משׁפּט; mishpâṭ; From H8199; properly a verdict (favorable or unfavorable) pronounced judicially, especially a sentence or formal decree (human or (particularly) divine law, individual or collectively), including the act, the place, the suit, the crime, and the penalty; abstractly justice, including a particular right, or privilege (statutory or customary), or even a style: - + adversary, ceremony, charge, X crime, custom, desert, determination, discretion, disposing, due, fashion, form, to be judged, judgment, just (-ice, -ly), (manner of) law (-ful), manner, measure, (due) order, ordinance, right, sentence, usest, X worthy, + wrong.

Of course there are many meanings in both the Hebrew and Greek language and it is the context and application that determines their usage as shown in reference to Numbers 9.

Numbers 9:3 In the fourteenth day of this month, at even, you shall keep it in his appointed season: according to all the rites of it, and ACCORDING TO THE CEREMONIES THEREOF, shall you keep it.

In the scriptures ceremonial laws are mostly seen in the laws for remission of sins where external rites (also meaning ceremony) where practiced in the Levitical Priesthood and Sanctuary laws of atonement for sin and all the offerings given for remission of sins, thank offerings etc, as well as the annual Feast days of Leviticus 23 and these laws can also been seen in Numbers and Deuteronomy etc..

Scripture examples of ceremonial laws...

Leviticus 1:1-17; Leviticus 2:1-16; Leviticus 3:1-17; Leviticus 4:1-35; Leviticus 5:1-19; Leviticus 6:1-30; Leviticus 7:1-38; Deuteronomy 16:16; Leviticus 23:4-44; Exodus 23:14-18; Leviticus 16:1-34; Leviticus 18:1-16; Leviticus 21:1-24; Leviticus 22:1-33; Leviticus 24:1-23; Exodus 25:1-40; Exodus 29:1-46; Exodus 21:18-19; Exodus 22:15-29; Deuteronomy 22:29; Deuteronomy 25:2-3; Deuteronomy 22:26; Deuteronomy 32:38; Exodus 22:27; Leviticus 19:26-31; Deuteronomy 18:11; Numbers 18:1-32; Number 19:1-22; Numbers 28:1-31; Numbers 29:1-40; Deuteronomy 12:1-32 etc etc…

We can go on and on here looking at different subcategories of law…

BIBLICAL SUPPORT FOR CIVIL LAWS OF THE NATION OF ISRAEL

Deuteronomy 16:18; Deuteronomy 1:17; Leviticus 25:14; Exodus 22:9-14; Deuteronomy 7:3; Numbers 5:30; Deuteronomy 24:1-4; Deuteronomy 25:5-9; Deuteronomy 14:22; Leviticus 25:37; Deuteronomy 23:20; Exodus 22:24; Deuteronomy 24:10-17; Leviticus 19:35; Deuteronomy 25:13-14; Leviticus 19:13; Deuteronomy 23:25-26; Exodus 21:2-8; Leviticus 25:39-53; Deuteronomy 15:13-14; Leviticus 25:46; Numbers 27:8-11; Exodus 21:33-36; Exodus 22:4-27; Exodus 23:1; Deuteronomy 24:16; Leviticus 25:23-29; Deuteronomy 19:14; Exodus 21:20; Leviticus 26:25; Leviticus 20:10-14; Deuteronomy 21:23; Numbers 35:25; Deuteronomy 19:3; Deuteronomy 16:1-22; Deuteronomy 17:1-20; Deuteronomy 19:1-21; Deuteronomy 20:1-20; Deuteronomy 21:1-23 etc etc...

BIBLICAL SUPPORT FOR THE LAWS OF HEALTH AND HYGIENE

Leviticus 11:1-47; Deuteronomy 14:3-21; Exodus 23:19; Genesis 1:29; Leviticus 7:23-26; Leviticus 17:13; Leviticus 19:26; Deuteronomy 21:20; Leviticus 12:1-8; Leviticus 13:1-59; Leviticus 14:1-57; Leviticus 15:1-33; Deuteronomy 14:1-29 etc etc..

....................

CONCLUSION: So according to the scriptures it is not biblical to claim that there are no categories of moral, ceremonial and civil laws in God's Word. As shown above through the scriptures and also shown in the Hebrew and Greek moral, ceremonial and civil laws are not man-made they are God made and written for our admonition in scripture.

To be continued...

I agree that there are a number of laws have aspects that could arguably be described as ceremonial and/or ceremonial that allow them to be placed in those categories, but just because you can do that does not mean that they are moral to disobey or that any of the authors of the Bible categorized God's laws in that manner. I could cite a bunch of verses that have laws in regard to how we use our hands and put them into the category of hand laws, but trying to make my own doctrine out of my category without establishing that any of the authors of the Bible used that category would quickly run into the same type of error you are making.

God's feasts have moral, civil, and ceremonial aspects. Mishpat refers to righteousness, justice, judgement, and judicial law. Look of the laws that are described as being mishpat, such as in Exodus 21:1, and look up the laws that are described as being choq, and all of these laws are what the Spirit leads us to obey in Ezekiel 36:26-27.
 
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Soyeong

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Agreed although no one has said anywhere that we are to disobey God's other laws and as posted above already no one has said anywhere that there are not other moral laws outside of God's 10 commandments. That said most of the other laws outside of God's law (10 commandments) are in reference to and further expounding on Gods' law.

Many however mix up God's eternal laws with the prophetic ceremonial laws of things to come that under the old covenant pointed to the coming Messiah JESUS as the Christ and Savior of the world and his work on our behalf under the new covenant promise of Hebrews 8:10-12; from Jeremiah 31:31-34 and Ezekiel 36:24-27; John 1:29; 36; Hebrews 7:1-28; Hebrews 8:1-13; Hebrews 9:1-28 and Hebrews 10:1-17, Colossians 2:14-17 etc..

By specifying that God's eternal moral law as being the Ten Commandments, the implication is that the other laws are not God's laws, eternal, or moral, which is why I have argued that all of the Mosaic Law is God's eternal moral law. Laws that are not moral laws would be moral to disobey, but there are no examples in the Bible of this, so you have no good grounds for saying that some of Mosaic laws are not moral laws. As followers of Jesus, we should live in a way that points toward him by obeying whatever you consider to be ceremonial laws rather than a way that points away from him by refusing to obey those laws.

Agreed, although, no one said anywhere that God did not tell Moses to write his other laws in a book and speak his laws to the people. That was not the point of what was posted to you earlier.

There is a reason why God's law (10 commandments) were the work of God alone and spoken by God alone to His people and written with God's own finger on two tables of stone *Exodus 32:16 and not given to Moses to speak and write and that is God's law is eternal while much of the ceremonial laws of the Sanctuary, priesthood and laws for remission of sins where prophetic shadow laws of things to come in the new covenant promise *Hebrews 8:10-12; from Jeremiah 31:31-34 and Ezekiel 36:24-27; John 1:29; 36; Hebrews 7:1-28; Hebrews 8:1-13; Hebrews 9:1-28 and Hebrews 10:1-17, Colossians 2:14-17 etc...

One set of laws being the work of God alone written by God on two tables of stone and the other being spoken to Moses for him to write in the book of be law of the old covenant *Deuteronomy 31:24-26; Exodus 24:7. It was God who separated the book of the law from the tables of stone that were placed in the Ark (house) of the covenant * Deuteronomy 10:2; Deuteronomy 31:24-26. One is eternal the other of things to come pointing to the word of God's plan of salvation for all mankind.

It is true we are to live by every word that proceed out of the mouth of God but we are in the new covenant not the old covenant and the old covenant ceremonial laws for remission of sins are fulfilled in the new covenant. Do you still make animal sacrifices for sin offerings if not why not? The shadows laws for remission of sin are fulfilled in the new covenant promise.

All of God's laws are God's laws regardless of whether He wrote them down or commanded Moses to write them down and regardless of whether they are placed inside or outside the Ark, and all of God's laws are eternal. The New Covenant is still made with the same God with the same eternal nature and therefore the same eternal laws for how to testify about His nature, and we should live in a way that testifies about God's nature by obeying His laws rather than a way that bears false witness against God.

I do not make offerings because there is no temple with no Levitical priesthood. Paul continued to make sin offerings, such as when he shaves his head in Acts 18:18 as part of a Nazarite vow (Numbers 6) and when he was going to pay the expenses for others who had taken as similar vow in Acts 21:20-24.

Agreed, Nehemiah 10:29 speaks of all law that is why it says..

Nehemiah 10:29, They joined to their brothers, their nobles, and entered into a curse, and into an oath, to walk in God's law, which was given by Moses the servant of God, and to observe and do all the commandments of the LORD our Lord, and his judgments and his statutes

We can see here that Nehemiah 10:29 is another good example on how the scriptures confirm there are different categories of law and not all laws are the same. If all laws were the same then there would bee not need to use the words מצוה; mitsvâh; משׁפּט; mishpâṭ (x2). The Hebrew has many meanings and applications depending on the context that it is used. Obviously using mishpâṭ (x2) having the same meaning and application would not make any sense right? As shown earlier in the Hebrew meaning of mishpat, also has application ceremonial laws here.

Keeping a balanced view we are in the new covenant now not the old covenant. We no longer follow the same laws for remission of sins from the old covenant now in the new covenant. Do you continue doing animal sacrifices every-time you sin? If not why not?

Today in the new covenant the shadow laws of Torah are now fulfilled in Christ and God's plan of salvation under the new covenant **Hebrews 8:10-12; from Jeremiah 31:31-34 and Ezekiel 36:24-27; John 1:29; 36; Hebrews 7:1-28; Hebrews 8:1-13; Hebrews 9:1-28 and Hebrews 10:1-17, Colossians 2:14-17.

God's eternal law (10 commandments) however have the same role they always have and that is to give us the knowledge of what sin is when broken and righteousness when obeyed *Psalms 119:172; Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4; James 2:10-11.

Again, I agree that the Bible uses different categories of law, however, the categories that it uses do not correspond to the categories as you have described them, for example, the laws that you have described as ceremonial laws are noticeably not described as mishpat and the laws that are described as mishpat often have nothing to do with ceremony. Likewise, the Bible states nothing about mishpatim not being moral laws, unlike the division you have made. I agree that we are not under the Mosaic Covenant, though we are still under the same God with the same laws (Jeremiah 31:33).

In 1 Corinthians 5:6-8, Paul spoke in regard to how Passover foreshadowed Christ by drawing the connection of him being our Passover Lamb, however, instead of concluding that we no longer need to observe Passover because it has been fulfilled under the New Covenant, he concluded by saying that we should therefore continue to keep the Feast. The foreshaodws testify about God's plan of salvation, so we should live in a way that testifies about God's plan of salvation by obeying those laws instead of a way that bears false witness against God's plan of salvation.

No. This it not true dear friend but let me explain why. Do you still do animal sacrifices? If not why not? Do you still seek out a Levitical Priest to offer your sin offerings every time you sin? If not why not?

These are all a part of the old covenant Torah laws for remission of sins right? We are in the new covenant made of better promises now not the old covenant laws for remission of sins that are fulfilled in Christ. For example, Hebrews 7:1-28 shows that the laws of the Priesthood of the old covenant represents the Priesthood of JESUS in the new covenant; Hebrews 8:1-13 Hebrews 9:1-28 and Hebrews 10:1-22 describes the Sanctuary laws and Priesthood and the laws for remission of sins and sin offering of the old covenant where “shadows” of the old covenant pointing to new covenant fulfillment of Christ as our true priest and sacrifice and the earthly Sanctuary only being a copy of the Sanctuary in Heaven made without hands and Christs work on our behalf in the heavenly Sanctuary and the laws written on stone of the old covenant to be written on the heart through love in the new covenant promise.

We can also add to these scriptures Colossians 2:1-17 and Ephesians 2:1-15. Hebrews 10:1 says [1], For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect. Context here is to the sacrifices for remission of sins not the 10 commandments which are eternal.

Context of the book of Hebrews is to the Jews who were still following old covenant teachings and the laws for remission of sin. Paul is showing them what those old covenant laws were pointing to under the new covenant promise of Jeremiah 31:31-34 and Ezekiel 36:24-27. Colossians 2:17 says [17], Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ. Paul is saying the body of Christ is here and the shadows point to and are fulfilled in JESUS!

The laws in regard to remission of sins have always pointed to Christ, and we should live in a way that points to Christ instead of a way that points away from him.

Agreed, no one said that the old testament Torah laws for remission of sin were abolished. They are fulfilled in Christ that is the shadows that pointed to things to come are fulfilled in Christ. That is they are continued in Christ not abolished. Perhaps you have a misunderstanding of what is being shared with you?

Indeed, you said that they were fulfilled, but the problem is that you appear to be interpreting that as meaning essentially the same thing as being abolished when Jesus contrasted fulfilling the law with saying he came not to abolish it. Jesus fulfilled the Mosaic Law by teaching us how to walk in obedience to it by word and by example, so those who are in Christ should continue to follow them because we are obligated to walk in the same way he walked (1 John 2:6). In Galatians 6:2, bearing one another's burdens fulfills the Law of Christ, but you don't appear to be consistently interpreting that in the same ways as fulfilling the Law of Moses.

Your response here...

Where did I say anywhere that these verses are referring only to God's 10 commandments? If I never made those claims why are you saying I am? I did however focus in on the fulfillment of Gods' eternal law as this is how love to God and man is expressed again see Matthew 22:36-40 from Leviticus 19:18 and Deuteronomy 6:5 and compare this to what Paul says in Romans 13:8-10 which is also agrees with what James says in James 2:10-11.

If someone's obedience to the greatest two commandments does not look like obedience to the other commandments, then they are not treating the greatest two commandments are being the fulfillment of the other commandments. In James 2:1-11, he was speaking to people who had sinned by showing favoritism and he was encouraging them to repent and to do a better job of obeying God's law more consistently. I'm not sure how you are connecting i to Romans 13:8-10.

True but many seem to be caught in the shadows of things to come when the body of Christ they point to has already arrived (Colossians 2:17; Hebrews 10:1).

They notably do not say that they are foreshadows of things that have already happened, but that they are foreshadows of things that are to come, and again they were written long after Christ's arrival.

Yes and no. My reference when I say Gods law is to those laws written and spoken by God alone (10 commandments). It is these laws that give us the knowledge of good and evil, sin and righteousness in the new covenant as shown in Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4 and if we break anyone of them we stand guilty before God of sin *James 2:10-11 showing us that the wages of sin is death in those who reject the gift of God's dear son *Romans 6:23; Romans 7:5-12; Romans 8:13. The law leads us to Christ that we might seek God's forgiveness faith as we follow God's word through confession and repentance of sin *1 John 1:9; Matthew 3:2; Acts of the Apostles 2:38. God grace is given in God's promise of forgiveness of sins to those who believe and follow God's Word. Therefore there can be no grace without law for all have sinned and full short of the glory of God *Romans 3:23.

Thanks for the discussion. There is much we agree on it seems and much we do not. We are in the new covenant now not the old but I agree we are to live by every word of God. The shadows that point to JESUS are continued in him who loves us and washed us with his own blood.

To him be all glory. AMEN!

One of the major problem that I have with how SDAs interpret Scripture is that they seem to view it through a filter where they see verses that say "God's law" or "commandments" and think "Ten Commandments" even though they don't specify that they are speaking only about ten of God's laws/commandments, such as with 1 John 3:4. In Romans 6:19-23, presenting ourselves as slaves to impurity, lawlessness, and sin is contrasted with presenting ourselves as slaves to God and to righteousness leading to sanctification, and the goal of sanctification is eternal life in Christ, which is the gift of God, so obedience to the Mosaic Law is itself part of the content of the gift of God. The Mosaic Law is God's word (Deuteronomy 5:31-33), and in Matthew 7:23, Jesus said that he would tell those who are workers of lawlessness to depart from him because he never knew them, so the Mosaic Law leads us to Christ because he is the Mosaic Law made flesh and everything it it teaches us how to have a relationship with him. In Acts 2:38, when Peter called for his audience to repent for the forgiveness of sin, the Mosaic Law was how they knew what sin is.

Thanks for the discussion
 
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Soyeong

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The law grants the knowledge of sin. The law condemns. You have been crucified with Christ already!

Do you deny that you are a new creation in Christ?

Do you deny that you have been reconciled to the Father through Jesus Christ?

In Christ, you are fully justified and sanctified. There is no sin that leads to death but one.

I hope that you don't claim to be free from sin, nor that you obey the law.

To use an analogy, when a parent gives rules to their children, this is not their thought process:

"My goal is to punish my children so I am going to give them rules that are impossible for them to obey so that I can get to punish them."

While punishment can result from a parent giving rules to their children, their goal is to give them laws that are for their own good that will be a blessing to them and teach them how to rightly live, and this is that much more true of our Heavenly Father, who can be trusted to give good laws (Deuteronomy 6:24, 10:12-13).

I do not deny that I am a new creation in Christ. In Ephesians 2:10, we have been made new creations in Christ in order to do good works, and the Mosaic Law was how the Israelites knew how to do good works. I also do not deny that I have been reconciled to the Father through Jesus Christ, but rather we should live in the manner of someone who has been reconciled to the Father by obeying the Mosaic Law.

In Christ, we are obligated to walk in the same way he walked, and he walked in obedience to the Mosaic Law (1 John 2:6). We have been sanctified (Hebrews 10:10), we are being sanctified (Hebrews 10:14), and we will be sanctified when he who began a good work in us is faithful to complete it on the day of Christ Jesus (Philippians 1:6).

We have been set free from sin in disobedience to God's law order to become slaves of righteousness in obedience to it (Romans 6:18).
 
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Eilat

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It is God who gave the Mosaic Law

God gave the law and commandments inside the context of His "foreknowledge".

See, God always understood that we can't keep any of it, because we are sinners by "fallen nature".
So, a fallen nature, is our normal state, which happens to be the nature of the Devil.

God gave the Law and commandments long before Christ came as God on THE Cross.

The reason : "The law is our schoolmaster that LEADS us to the Cross".

That is the extant purpose of the Law and Commandments.

The general purpose is to define God's moral boundary.
 
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LoveGodsWord

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I did not claim that.
Hi Soyeong. You did not claim what? I only quoted you...
Soyeong said: I agree that according to the Scripture there are different subcategories of law, however, those categories to not correspond to the man-made categories of moral, civil, and ceremonial law. Again, morality is in regard to what we ought to do and we ought to obey God, so all of the Mosaic laws are moral laws. Likewise, all of the Mosaic laws teach us how to testify about God's nature, and testify about God's nature is the basis of morality, so again all of Mosaic laws are inherently moral laws. So the subcategory of moral law is useless when all of the Mosaic laws belong in that category, but worse that that, it creates the false implication that the laws you've decided are civil and ceremonial are moral to disobey when there are no examples in the Bible of any of the Mosaic laws being considered to be moral to disobey. It creates the false impression that laws belong in only one of those three categories when all of the Mosaic laws belong under multiple of those categories.
I agree and already stated that morality is in regard to what we ought to do in obeying God (right doing; righteousness moral right). This was clearly stated in my last few posts in the definitions section.

Where I have a problem with your statement here is that the scriptures no longer teach that all the Mosaic shadow laws (Sanctuary, Priesthood, animal sacrifices and sin offerings) for remission of sins under the old covenant are a requirement for believers under the new covenant. What I tried to outline in the last two posts is that "all the prophetic shadow laws" from the Mosaic book of the law under the "old covenant" for remission of sins are no longer applicable to "how we ought to obey God" so therefore they cannot be argued to be moral law as they are fulfilled in the new covenant to which they pointed to. For example I asked you do you still do animal sacrifices every time you commit sin? If not why not?

That is because as the book of Hebrews tells us *Hebrews 8:10-12; from Jeremiah 31:31-34 and Ezekiel 36:24-27; John 1:29; 36; Hebrews 7:1-28; Hebrews 8:1-13; Hebrews 9:1-28 and Hebrews 10:1-17, Colossians 2:14-17 etc.. these laws were all "shadow laws" pointing to the sacrifice of the Messiah and Christ for the sins of the world and his work as our great high Priest in the Heavenly Sanctuary not made with hands - no more animal sacrifices for remission of sins!

To go back to the Mosiac laws for remission of sins and animal sacrifices would be a very denial of the Christ to which they point to. So no dear friend according to the scriptures, the Mosiac laws for remission of sins under the old covenant are not how we "ought to obey God" under the new covenant therefore can not be argued to be moral laws in the new covenant.
Furthermore, there is the problem of people creating their own doctrines out of those categories without showing that any of the authors of the Bible ever categorized the laws in that manner, such as saying that we don't need to obey what you have decided are ceremonial laws.
As shown in post # 14 linked, I believe the scriptures disagree with you here as it is God's Word (not mine) that shows that God has different categories of law made for different purposes under old covenant Torah (scripture support already supplied in the linked post above). Of course not all laws in the Torah are prophetic "shadow laws" for remission of sins and much are still applicable under the new covenant promises of a new heart to love. It is the prophetic, Mosiac "shadow laws for remission of sins" (Sanctuary laws, Levitical Priesthood laws, laws for remission of sins and many of the annual feasts) that point to Jesus as the coming Messiah and Christ and God's sacrifice for sin on our behalf under the new covenant that fulfill old covenant laws for the remission of sins *Hebrews 7:1-28; Hebrews 8:1-13; Hebrews 9:1-28; Hebrews 10:1-17, Colossians 2:14-17. Everything shared with you here is from God's Word linking the old testament scriptures to the new testament scriptures and as we discussed earlier, man does not live by bread alone but by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God *Matthew 4:4 from Deuteronomy 8:3
All of the laws that God has given are in regard to how to love God and our neighbor, which is why Jesus said that those are the greatest two commandments and that all of the other laws hang on them, so they are all connected. So all of the Mosaic laws are moral laws by the definition of "doing what is right in regards to expressing our love for God and our fellow man". I see no grounds for thinking that it can ever be moral to disobey God. I agree that there are a number of laws have aspects that could arguably be described as ceremonial and/or ceremonial that allow them to be placed in those categories, but just because you can do that does not mean that they are moral to disobey or that any of the authors of the Bible categorized God's laws in that manner. I could cite a bunch of verses that have laws in regard to how we use our hands and put them into the category of hand laws, but trying to make my own doctrine out of my category without establishing that any of the authors of the Bible used that category would quickly run into the same type of error you are making.
Depends on what you mean by all of God's laws under the old covenant Torah. For example we do not love God by continuing to practice the old covenant laws for remission of sin (Sanctuary laws, Levitical Priesthood laws, laws for remission of sins etc). These laws pointed to Jesus in the new covenant and His work on our behalf in the heavenly Sanctuary made without hands of which the earthly was only a copy *Hebrews 8:2-12; Hebrews 9:1-9. To do so would be to reject JESUS who was the very substance these laws pointed to and are fulfilled in *John 1:29; 36; Hebrews 7:1-28; Hebrews 8:1-13; Hebrews 9:1-28; Hebrews 10:1-17; Hebrews 13:8-12.

As posted above it is impossible under the new covenant for the old testament Mosiac laws for remission of sin to be moral laws because they are no longer our duty of love to God for right doing (righteousness). Practicing them now when that to which they pointed to has arrived would be to deny the Messiah and the Christ to who they pointed to therefore rejecting God's Word which is wrong doing (unrighteousness) therefore not moral laws. We do not disobey God by no longer following the old covenant laws for remission of sins that are fulfilled in the Christ. We continue following them in a new and better way made from better promises in the new covenant *Hebrews 8:6. I would also point you to Hebrews 7; Hebrews 8; Hebrews 9; Hebrews 10 and Hebrews 13 here. We are in the new covenant now not the old. Time to leave the shadows..
 
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LoveGodsWord

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LoveGodsWord said: Agreed although no one has said anywhere that we are to disobey God's other laws and as posted above already no one has said anywhere that there are not other moral laws outside of God's 10 commandments. That said most of the other laws outside of God's law (10 commandments) are in reference to and further expounding on Gods' law. Many however mix up God's eternal laws with the prophetic ceremonial laws of things to come that under the old covenant pointed to the coming Messiah JESUS as the Christ and Savior of the world and his work on our behalf under the new covenant promise of Hebrews 8:10-12; from Jeremiah 31:31-34 and Ezekiel 36:24-27; John 1:29; 36; Hebrews 7:1-28; Hebrews 8:1-13; Hebrews 9:1-28 and Hebrews 10:1-17, Colossians 2:14-17 etc..
Your response here...
By specifying that God's eternal moral law as being the Ten Commandments, the implication is that the other laws are not God's laws, eternal, or moral, which is why I have argued that all of the Mosaic Law is God's eternal moral law. Laws that are not moral laws would be moral to disobey, but there are no examples in the Bible of this, so you have no good grounds for saying that some of Mosaic laws are not moral laws. As followers of Jesus, we should live in a way that points toward him by obeying whatever you consider to be ceremonial laws rather than a way that points away from him by refusing to obey those laws.
Not really, I think you may have a misunderstanding here. I think I made it very clear that nothing in Torah has been abolished under the new covenant. I thought it was clearly stated and shown from the scriptures in both the old and new testament that the Mosiac "shadow laws" for remission of sins are fulfilled in Christ. This does not mean they are abolished but that there is a new and better covenant based on better promises in regards to how we are to receive God's forgiveness *Hebrews 8:6. As shown above under the new covenant the "shadow laws" of remission of sins are no longer a requirement for God's people under the new covenant therefore not a standard for right doing as our duty of love to God therefore cannot be a moral law as to continue them would be to deny the very Christ to who they pointed to under the new covenant *Hebrews 9:11-28; 1 John 1:9; 36. Fulfilled here means as shadow laws that to which they pointed to has arrived. We continue keeping them under the new covenant in a new and better way and now follow in that to which they pointed to - Christ! *Hebrews 8:6
All of God's laws are God's laws regardless of whether He wrote them down or commanded Moses to write them down and regardless of whether they are placed inside or outside the Ark, and all of God's laws are eternal. The New Covenant is still made with the same God with the same eternal nature and therefore the same eternal laws for how to testify about His nature, and we should live in a way that testifies about God's nature by obeying His laws rather than a way that bears false witness against God.
True, but what we are discussing now are what laws are a requirement under the new covenant and what laws from the old covenant have been fulfilled in the new covenant promise. My point of conversation supported by the scriptures shared with you is mainly in regards to what is required under the old covenant laws of Torah verses what is now required under Gods' new covenant promises to which the Mosaic shadow laws for remission of sin all pointed to . The Mosiac "shadow laws" of the old covenant for remission of sins of course are those which pointed to JESUS and His ministration and work on our behalf in the heavenly Sanctuary made without hands of which the earthly was only a copy *Hebrews 9:24. They have their fulfillment in the new covenant made of better promises *Hebrews 8:6
I do not make offerings because there is no temple with no Levitical priesthood. Paul continued to make sin offerings, such as when he shaves his head in Acts 18:18 as part of a Nazarite vow (Numbers 6) and when he was going to pay the expenses for others who had taken as similar vow in Acts 21:20-24.
If that is your only reason for why you do not make sin offerings then you are still living in the old covenant "shadow laws for remission of sins" and have reject the living Christ to who they pointed to in the new covenant made by better promises. For this I would point you dear friend to John 1:29; 36; Hebrews 7:1-28; Hebrews 8:1-13; Hebrews 9:1-28 and Hebrews 10:1-17. There is no salvation anymore in the earthly Sanctuary made with hands or the Levitical Priesthood and animal sacrifices for sin. These are the "shadow laws" of the old covenant that pointed to the new covenant according to the scriptures provided above. My prayer is that you may prayerfully consider the scriptures I have shared with you here as there is now no other name under Heaven that we are now saved then then Christ to who the shadows all point to *Acts of the Apostles 4:12.
In 1 Corinthians 5:6-8, Paul spoke in regard to how Passover foreshadowed Christ by drawing the connection of him being our Passover Lamb, however, instead of concluding that we no longer need to observe Passover because it has been fulfilled under the New Covenant, he concluded by saying that we should therefore continue to keep the Feast. The foreshaodws testify about God's plan of salvation, so we should live in a way that testifies about God's plan of salvation by obeying those laws instead of a way that bears false witness against God's plan of salvation.
This is a good example of what I have been sharing with you in regards to the Mosaic "shadow laws" that are fulfilled in the new covenant. Understanding the shadow laws and their fulfillment does not mean that they are abolished only that to which they point to has arrived and that to which they pointed to has been fulfilled. We continue in these same "shadow laws" in that to which they pointed to. In your example here you quote 1 Corinthians 5:6-8 showing that the Passover was a "shadow law" that pointed to Jesus death at Calvary and his sacrifice as our paschal lamb of God that takes away the sins of the world *John 1:29; 36. Paul is not saying here to keep the feast the old way as he is saying that we keep the feast the new way in which he outlines and that is Christ is our true Passover today and that the Passover was a shadow that pointed to the coming of the Christ. This is how we are to keep the feast. There is a reason why there are no animal sacrifices today and that is because JESUS is our true sacrifice for sin and the "shadow laws for remission of sins all point to JESUS as the true lamb of God and God's sin offering on behalf of all those who believe and follow His Word. Have a read of the following scriptures that reveals our true sacrifice for sins in the new covenant - Hebrews 10:1-18; John 1:29; 1 Peter 1:18-19; Romans 5:6-10; 1 Corinthians 11:23-27; 1 John 2:2; John 15:13; Ephesians 5:2; Hebrews 9:26; 1 Peter 2:23-24; 2 Corinthians 5:21; Matthew 26:27-28; John 3:16; Ephesians 1:7; Romans 5:1; Colossians 1:21-22; Hebrews 9:12-14; Hebrews 10:8-14; 18; 1 John 4:10; Isaiah 53:4-7; 2 Corinthians 5:18-19; Ephesians 2:18; Hebrews 10:26-31; Revelation 13:8. The laws in regard to remission of sins have always pointed to Christ, and we should live in a way that points to Christ instead of a way that points away from him.
Indeed, you said that they were fulfilled, but the problem is that you appear to be interpreting that as meaning essentially the same thing as being abolished when Jesus contrasted fulfilling the law with saying he came not to abolish it. Jesus fulfilled the Mosaic Law by teaching us how to walk in obedience to it by word and by example, so those who are in Christ should continue to follow them because we are obligated to walk in the same way he walked (1 John 2:6). In Galatians 6:2, bearing one another's burdens fulfills the Law of Christ, but you don't appear to be consistently interpreting that in the same ways as fulfilling the Law of Moses.
Not really dear friend that is not what I have said or my understanding whatsoever. I have never interpreted "fulfilled" as "abolished" and have never said this anywhere. I think this is a misunderstanding your side. I have always stated in the early posts as well as here before getting to this section when using the word "fulfilled" as posted earlier in regards to the Mosaic "shadow laws" that are fulfilled in the new covenant does not mean that they are "abolished". My use of the word "fulfilled" means that to which these "shadow laws" pointed to has arrived and that to which they pointed to has met it's fulfillment in the prophetic law point to things to come. We continue in these same "shadow laws" in that to which they pointed to which is the Christ and his work on our behalf under the new covenant *Hebrews 8:6; Hebrews 8:13.
If someone's obedience to the greatest two commandments does not look like obedience to the other commandments, then they are not treating the greatest two commandments are being the fulfillment of the other commandments. In James 2:1-11, he was speaking to people who had sinned by showing favoritism and he was encouraging them to repent and to do a better job of obeying God's law more consistently. I'm not sure how you are connecting i to Romans 13:8-10.
James 2:8-12 is in reference to those showing favoritism in regards to our obedience to God's law and specifically uses the examples of God's 10 commandments that are quoted in the context of "thou shalt not commit murder" and "thou shalt not commit adultery". The royal law of our duty of love to our neighbor is only summing up those commandments under God's 10 commandments (context) that are to do with our duty of love our fellow man. The connection is made is confirmed in Romans 13:8-10 where Paul outlines all the commandments from the 10 commandments that are our duty of love to our fellow man and says that these laws are "summed up" in the saying "Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself" *Romans 13:8-9. Jame is agreeing with what Paul has said in James 2:8-12 when he is talking about the Royal law of love in James 2:8-12 and starts talking about murder and adultery as examples of favoritism and breaking anyone of God's 10 we stand before God as breaking all of them. Both James and Paul are agreeing with what JESUS says in Matthew 22:36-40 where he says on these two great commandments of love to God and our fellow man hang all the law and the prophets.
They notably do not say that they are foreshadows of things that have already happened, but that they are foreshadows of things that are to come, and again they were written long after Christ's arrival.
Yes and no. Paul state in Colossians 2:17 in context to Colossians 2:16 and the annual Feasts that they are shadows of the things to come; but the body is Christ's. Not all the Feast have their complete fulfillment (eg. Day of atonement - Yom Kippur; Feast of Tabernacles or booths - Sukkot; Feast of week - Shavuot ) as Jesus has not returned. Some feats have their fulfillment in the body of Christ to which they pointed to (Passover and Feast of Firstfruits) *1 Corinthians 5:7-8; 1 Corinthians 15:20 etc. Paul in Hebrews 10:1 is showing that the old testament laws for remission of sins were shadows of good things to come and says " For the law having a shadow of the good things to come, not the very image of the things, can never with the same sacrifices year by year, which they offer continually, make perfect them that draw nigh. Then goes on to show in Hebrews 10:2-10 how these laws are "fulfilled" in Christ.
One of the major problem that I have with how SDAs interpret Scripture is that they seem to view it through a filter where they see verses that say "God's law" or "commandments" and think "Ten Commandments" even though they don't specify that they are speaking only about ten of God's laws/commandments, such as with 1 John 3:4. In Romans 6:19-23, presenting ourselves as slaves to impurity, lawlessness, and sin is contrasted with presenting ourselves as slaves to God and to righteousness leading to sanctification, and the goal of sanctification is eternal life in Christ, which is the gift of God, so obedience to the Mosaic Law is itself part of the content of the gift of God. The Mosaic Law is God's word (Deuteronomy 5:31-33), and in Matthew 7:23, Jesus said that he would tell those who are workers of lawlessness to depart from him because he never knew them, so the Mosaic Law leads us to Christ because he is the Mosaic Law made flesh and everything it it teaches us how to have a relationship with him. In Acts 2:38, when Peter called for his audience to repent for the forgiveness of sin, the Mosaic Law was how they knew what sin is.
Well this is absolutely not true and I hope our discussion has provided you with a better understanding of what we believe now and what we do not believe. In understanding the Hebrew and the Greek languages you will possibly know that there are many words having multiple meanings and it is the context as to how these words are used that meanings are determined. It is a false claim to state that every time an SDA's views the word "commandment or laws" they are only in reference to God's 10 commandments. It is the context the determines meaning from both old and new testament scripture.

In regard to our differences here using the example of 1 John 3:4 and as has been proven already though the scriptures provided already in previous posts the Mosiac prophetic "shadow laws" for remission of sins are now fulfilled in Christ and his ministration on our behalf as our great High Priest in the heavenly Sanctuary made without hands and our true sacrifice for sin. These laws as shown through the scriptures already are fulfilled in Him who loves us and washed us with his own blood and continued in him to who the "Shadow laws" all pointed to.

With this in mind it is therefore impossible that 1 John 3:4 is talking about old covenant Torah laws for remission of sin. That interpretation would be to deny the very Christ to who they pointed to. The context there fore and the reason why John writes this scripture is found in 1 John 2:1 where he says the reason that he is writing is that we sin not!

Sin is very clearly defined in the scriptures as breaking anyone of God' 10 commandments and not believing and following Gods' Word in Romans 7:7; James 2:10-11 and Romans 14:23. Further context to 1 John 3:4 builds on the biblical definition of sin showing that those who are born of God do not practice sin *1 John 3:6-9 and that those who practice sin and those who do not practice sin is the difference between the children of God and the children of the devil *1 John 3:9-10.

John continues to contrast hate with murder and love *1 John 3:11-24 to show that love fulfills God's law in those who have been born again in Gods' new covenant promise of a new heart to love as shown by Jesus in Matthew 22:36-40; Romans 13:8-10 and James 2:8-12. You cannot separate love from law (10 commandments) as God's love is expressed through obedience to them and is why Jesus says on these two great commandments of love to God and man hang all the law and the prophets.

Thanks for a friendly discussion. It is time to leave the old covenant shadows dear friend that are fulfilled in Christ we are in the new covenant now...
 
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Soyeong

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God gave the law and commandments inside the context of His "foreknowledge".

See, God always understood that we can't keep any of it, because we are sinners by "fallen nature".
So, a fallen nature, is our normal state, which happens to be the nature of the Devil.

God gave the Law and commandments long before Christ came as God on THE Cross.

The reason : "The law is our schoolmaster that LEADS us to the Cross".

That is the extant purpose of the Law and Commandments.

The general purpose is to define God's moral boundary.

Nowhere does the Bible say that God always understood that we can't keep any of it. On the contrary, in Deuteronomy 30:11-20, God said that His law is not too difficult for us to keep and that obedience brings life and a blessing while disobedience brings death and a curse, so choose life! So it was presented as a possibility and as a choice, not as something that no one can keep. Thinking that no one could keep it would mean that God essentially gave the law with the goal of cursing His children, which expresses an extremely poor opinion about God. However, the reality is that God's law was given for our own good in order to bless us (Deuteronomy 6:24, 10:12-13). Furthermore, in 1 John 5:3, to love God is to keep His commandments, which are not burdensome, so denying that we can keep any of it is denying that there is anything who has ever loved God and denying that God's commandments are not burdensome. We also have example of people do did keep the law, such as Zechariah and Elizabeth (Luke 1:5-6). Do you believe that nothing is impossible with God...except obeying Him?

God's holy, righteous, and good laws testify about God's holiness, righteousness, and goodness, or in other words, they testify about God's nature, and there are many verses that describe the nature of God in the same terms as they describe the nature of God's laws. Jesus is the exact expression of God's nature, so he expressed the divine nature through his actions and what that looked like was a life lived in sinless obedience to the Mosaic Law, so the law leads us to Christ because everything in it testifies about who he is and how to have a relationship with him. In Matthew 7:23, Jesus said that he would tell those who are workers of lawlessness to depart from him because he never knew them, so again God's law is His instructions for how to know Christ, or in other words how to have a relationship with him. In Titus 2:14, Jesus gave himself to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works, so becoming zealous for doing good works in obedience to the Mosaic Law is what it looks like to believe in what Jesus accomplished through the cross (Acts 21:20).
 
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Soyeong

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Hi Soyeong. You did not claim what? I only quoted you...

I said: "those categories [do] not correspond to the man-made categories of moral, civil, and ceremonial law"

You said: "but disagree that there is no categories that include moral laws, ceremonial laws or civil laws under the old covenant"

For example, mishpat is a subcategory of law that is used by the Bible, and into that category you could place laws such as the one against kidnapping, which is a moral and civil law, so I was not saying that there are no categories that include moral, civil, or ceremonial laws however, as a whole, the subcategory of mishpat does not correspond to what you've defied as moral, civil, or ceremonial law. Primarily, the subcategory of moral law implies that the laws in the other categories are not moral laws, but there is no such implication in the subcategories that are used by the Bible, so your use of the moral subcategory of law completely invalidates correspondence to any of the subcategories used by the Bible, which is not to deny that they contain moral laws.

I agree and already stated that morality is in regard to what we ought to do in obeying God (right doing; righteousness moral right). This was clearly stated in my last few posts in the definitions section.

Where I have a problem with your statement here is that the scriptures no longer teach that all the Mosaic shadow laws (Sanctuary, Priesthood, animal sacrifices and sin offerings) for remission of sins under the old covenant are a requirement for believers under the new covenant. What I tried to outline in the last two posts is that "all the prophetic shadow laws" from the Mosaic book of the law under the "old covenant" for remission of sins are no longer applicable to "how we ought to obey God" so therefore they cannot be argued to be moral law as they are fulfilled in the new covenant to which they pointed to. For example I asked you do you still do animal sacrifices every time you commit sin? If not why not?

That is because as the book of Hebrews tells us *Hebrews 8:10-12; from Jeremiah 31:31-34 and Ezekiel 36:24-27; John 1:29; 36; Hebrews 7:1-28; Hebrews 8:1-13; Hebrews 9:1-28 and Hebrews 10:1-17, Colossians 2:14-17 etc.. these laws were all "shadow laws" pointing to the sacrifice of the Messiah and Christ for the sins of the world and his work as our great high Priest in the Heavenly Sanctuary not made with hands - no more animal sacrifices for remission of sins!

To go back to the Mosiac laws for remission of sins and animal sacrifices would be a very denial of the Christ to which they point to. So no dear friend according to the scriptures, the Mosiac laws for remission of sins under the old covenant are not how we "ought to obey God" under the new covenant therefore can not be argued to be moral laws in the new covenant.

If you agree that morality is in regard to what we ought to do, that we ought to obey God, that therefore all of God's laws are inherently moral laws, then that undermines the position that some of God's laws that you have decided are ceremonial laws are not moral laws.

There can be circumstances that temporarily cause God's eternal laws to not be applicable, such not offering animal sacrifices while there is no temple until there is a 3rd temple built (Ezekiel 44-46), however, we should always live in a way that points to the sacrifice of the Messiah for the sins of the world by following the laws that do that, so that is not a good reason for why those laws are not applicable. God's holy days are important foreshadows that testify about Messiah, so we shouldn't let anyone judge us for keeping them (Colossians 2:16-17). In 1 Corinthians 5:6-8, it Paul did not conclude by saying that keeping Passover denies Christ and is no longer applicable, but rather he concluded by saying that we should therefore continue to keep the Feast, so keeping Passover is testifying that was it teaches us about the Messiah is true while refusing to keep Passover is bearing false witness against the Messiah and is the denial of the Christ to which they point.

Jesus fulfilled the Mosaic Law by spending his ministry teaching how to obey it by word and by example, which has nothing to do with causing it to no longer be applicable. Jesus did not establish the New Covenant in order to undermine anything that he spent his ministry teaching by word or by example, but rather the New Covenant still involves following the Mosaic Law (Jeremiah 31:33, Hebrews 8:1-13, Ezekiel 36:26-27). In Titus 2:14, Jesus gave himself to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works, so being coming zealous for doing good works in obedience to the Mosaic Law is what it looks like to believe in the Christ that it points to (Acts 21:20), while to refuse to submit the Mosaic Law and to go back to the lawlessness that Jesus gave himself to redeem us from is the denial of the Christ that it points to.

As shown in post # 14 linked, I believe the scriptures disagree with you here as it is God's Word (not mine) that shows that God has different categories of law made for different purposes under old covenant Torah (scripture support already supplied in the linked post above). Of course not all laws in the Torah are prophetic "shadow laws" for remission of sins and much are still applicable under the new covenant promises of a new heart to love. It is the prophetic, Mosiac "shadow laws for remission of sins" (Sanctuary laws, Levitical Priesthood laws, laws for remission of sins and many of the annual feasts) that point to Jesus as the coming Messiah and Christ and God's sacrifice for sin on our behalf under the new covenant that fulfill old covenant laws for the remission of sins *Hebrews 7:1-28; Hebrews 8:1-13; Hebrews 9:1-28; Hebrews 10:1-17, Colossians 2:14-17. Everything shared with you here is from God's Word linking the old testament scriptures to the new testament scriptures and as we discussed earlier, man does not live by bread alone but by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God *Matthew 4:4 from Deuteronomy 8:3

Again, I agree that God has different subcategories of law made for different purposes under the Torah, but the categories of law that it uses do not correspond to the subcategories that you have described. All of the laws of the Torah fit into multiple of your categories, which completely undermines them.

Depends on what you mean by all of God's laws under the old covenant Torah. For example we do not love God by continuing to practice the old covenant laws for remission of sin (Sanctuary laws, Levitical Priesthood laws, laws for remission of sins etc). These laws pointed to Jesus in the new covenant and His work on our behalf in the heavenly Sanctuary made without hands of which the earthly was only a copy *Hebrews 8:2-12; Hebrews 9:1-9. To do so would be to reject JESUS who was the very substance these laws pointed to and are fulfilled in *John 1:29; 36; Hebrews 7:1-28; Hebrews 8:1-13; Hebrews 9:1-28; Hebrews 10:1-17; Hebrews 13:8-12.

In Exodus 20:6, God wanted His people to love Him and obey His commandments, in 1 John 5:3, to love God is to obey His commandments, which are not burdensome, and there are many other verses in both the OT and the NT that associate our obedience to God's commandments with our love for Him, while there is not a single verse that states that we do not love God by continuing to obey His commandments. We should live in a way that points towards Jesus by obeying God's laws rather than a way that points away from him. God's laws were given to testify about Jesus (John 5:39), so we do not reject Jesus by testifying about him, but just the opposite.

As posted above it is impossible under the new covenant for the old testament Mosiac laws for remission of sin to be moral laws because they are no longer our duty of love to God for right doing (righteousness). Practicing them now when that to which they pointed to has arrived would be to deny the Messiah and the Christ to who they pointed to therefore rejecting God's Word which is wrong doing (unrighteousness) therefore not moral laws. We do not disobey God by no longer following the old covenant laws for remission of sins that are fulfilled in the Christ. We continue following them in a new and better way made from better promises in the new covenant *Hebrews 8:6. I would also point you to Hebrews 7; Hebrews 8; Hebrews 9; Hebrews 10 and Hebrews 13 here. We are in the new covenant now not the old. Time to leave the shadows..

Again, Colossians 2:14-17 and Hebrews 10:1 do not say that they are foreshadows of what has already arrived, but rather they say that they are foreshadows of what is to come, and both were written after Jesus had arrived. We should live in a way that testifies about what is to come, but even if those verses had stated that they are fore shadows of what has already arrived, then we should live in a way that testifies that Jesus has arrived by obeying those laws rather than a way that denies that he has arrived by refusing to keep them. God's word commands us to keep God's holy days, so refusing to keep them is rejecting God's Word. We can't follow Christ by refusing to follow what he taught by word and by example. In Hebrew 8:10, the New Covenant still involves following God's law, not rejecting it.
 
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LoveGodsWord

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I said: "those categories [do] not correspond to the man-made categories of moral, civil, and ceremonial law" You said: "but disagree that there is no categories that include moral laws, ceremonial laws or civil laws under the old covenant" For example, mishpat is a subcategory of law that is used by the Bible, and into that category you could place laws such as the one against kidnapping, which is a moral and civil law, so I was not saying that there are no categories that include moral, civil, or ceremonial laws however, as a whole, the subcategory of mishpat does not correspond to what you've defied as moral, civil, or ceremonial law. Primarily, the subcategory of moral law implies that the laws in the other categories are not moral laws, but there is no such implication in the subcategories that are used by the Bible, so your use of the moral subcategory of law completely invalidates correspondence to any of the subcategories used by the Bible, which is not to deny that they contain moral laws.
Well not really dear friend but let me explain why. You do agree already in this post here and elsewhere that the example of mishpat can include civil, ceremonial or moral laws right? In fact it includes all law both divine and human it is not a category of law so to speak it is a judgement normally based on law. The Hebrew word meaning of mishpat is a judgement or the act of judging it is normally applied to all of Gods' laws or human law which are the standard of judgement having application to God's judgements.

So it is not a category of law so to speak as it is more about judging or carrying out judgement based on law and law being the standard of judgement given by God or by man in civil law. The law is the standard of mishpat (judgment) not a category of mishpat. Some example of Gods' judgement are the blessings and curses *Deuteronomy 11:26-32, listed in Deuteronomy 27 and Deuteronomy 28 which are God's judgement of the blessings for following God's law and the curses for not following Gods' law.

You have already agreed that there is scripture that shows that there is civil, ceremonial and moral laws. Scripture support for these laws, including their definitions have already been given in post # 14 linked. Now what is it your trying to argue? Are you trying to argue there is no civil, ceremonial and moral laws in Torah when you have been shown through the scriptures that there is?
If you agree that morality is in regard to what we ought to do, that we ought to obey God, that therefore all of God's laws are inherently moral laws, then that undermines the position that some of God's laws that you have decided are ceremonial laws are not moral laws. There can be circumstances that temporarily cause God's eternal laws to not be applicable, such not offering animal sacrifices while there is no temple until there is a 3rd temple built (Ezekiel 44-46), however, we should always live in a way that points to the sacrifice of the Messiah for the sins of the world by following the laws that do that, so that is not a good reason for why those laws are not applicable. God's holy days are important foreshadows that testify about Messiah, so we shouldn't let anyone judge us for keeping them (Colossians 2:16-17).
As posted earlier, morality is indeed what we ought to do but what we ought to do in the old covenant is not the same as what we ought to do now in the new covenant Hebrews 7:1-28; Hebrews 8:1-13; Hebrews 9:1-28 and Hebrews 10:1-17, Colossians 2:14-17 etc.

We are in the new covenant now not the old covenant. The "shadow laws" that point to Jesus have been fulfilled at his coming as God's true sacrifice for the sins of the world *John 1:29;36, our great high Priest who ministers on our behalf in the heavenly Sanctuary made without hands of which the earthly was only a copy *Hebrews 7:14-22; Hebrews 8:1-13. To deny the very Christ to which the "shadow laws" of the old covenant point to and continue in these "shadow laws" is to deny the very Christ to who they point to.

The new covenant is based on better promises and is not the same as the old covenant laws for remission of sin *Hebrews 8:8-13. Where I have a problem with your statement here is that the scriptures no longer teach that all the Mosaic shadow laws (Sanctuary, Priesthood, animal sacrifices and sin offerings) for remission of sins under the old covenant are a requirement for believers under the new covenant.

Therefore for if in the new covenant we are not to seek forgiveness of sin through faith in the God's lamb of God and no longer do animal sacrifice for sins and Jesus is now our great high Priest ministering on our behalf in the heavenly Sanctuary not made with hands of which the earth was only a copy, then to reject Gods' Word in the new covenant in order to practice the "shadow laws" of the old covenant it is easy to see that this is not how we ought to obey God and therefore no longer a moral law under the new covenant dispensation that we are now living after the death and resurrection of Jesus.

What I tried to outline in the last two posts is that "all the prophetic shadow laws" from the Mosaic book of the law under the "old covenant" for remission of sins are no longer applicable to "how we ought to obey God" so therefore they cannot be argued to be moral law as they are fulfilled in the new covenant to which they pointed to.

In 1 Corinthians 5:6-8, it Paul did not conclude by saying that keeping Passover denies Christ and is no longer applicable, but rather he concluded by saying that we should therefore continue to keep the Feast, so keeping Passover is testifying that was it teaches us about the Messiah is true while refusing to keep Passover is bearing false witness against the Messiah and is the denial of the Christ to which they point.
For me personally, I think its a great thing and honorable that people want to keep the Feast days but as long as they understand that they are "shadows" and what they point to. Of course JESUS is all in all and it is these shadows that point to our Lord that the prophets desired to see yet we all with open face behold him who, loves us and are changed into His image. Paul does not say anywhere that not keeping the Passover is a false witness against the Messiah and a denial of Christ to which it points to.

Paul is showing in 1 Corinthians 5:6-8 that the Passover is a "shadow law" pointing to JESUS as the paschal lamp of God that is our only protection when the destroyer comes through and puts an end to sin and we are to purge out the leaven of false teachings because now Christ or true Passover is sacrificed for us. Paul goes on bringing the shadows to the new by saying "wherefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth". We now keep the Passover in Christ as God's true paschal lamb in sincerity and in truth according to the new covenant Word of God *John 17:17 revealed in Christ *John 14:6.
Jesus fulfilled the Mosaic Law by spending his ministry teaching how to obey it by word and by example, which has nothing to do with causing it to no longer be applicable. Jesus did not establish the New Covenant in order to undermine anything that he spent his ministry teaching by word or by example, but rather the New Covenant still involves following the Mosaic Law (Jeremiah 31:33, Hebrews 8:1-13, Ezekiel 36:26-27). In Titus 2:14, Jesus gave himself to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works, so being coming zealous for doing good works in obedience to the Mosaic Law is what it looks like to believe in the Christ that it points to (Acts 21:20), while to refuse to submit the Mosaic Law and to go back to the lawlessness that Jesus gave himself to redeem us from is the denial of the Christ that it points to.
Jesus says in John 5:39-40 "You search the scriptures, because you think that in them you have eternal life; and these are they which bear witness of me; and you will not come to me, that ye may have life". This is an interesting scripture. It was the "shadow laws" for remission of sins under the old covenant (Sanctuary laws, Priesthood laws, animal sacrifices and sin offerings; annual Feast days) that testified of Jesus.

The old testament further says Sacrifice and offering you did not desire; my ears have you opened: burnt offering and sin offering have you not required. Then said I, See, I come: in the volume of the book it is written of me, I delight to do your will, O my God: yes, your law is within my heart *Psalms 40:6-8; Hebrews 10:7.

The old testament "shadow laws" for remission of sin all pointed to Jesus as God's coming sacrifice for the sins of the world under the old covenant. Jesus said to the Jew that they searched the scriptures to find eternal life and it was these very scriptures that pointed to him John 5:39 yet he came unto his own but his own did not receive him as it was written in John 1:1-4.

These teachers of the law denied the very Christ that the law and the prophets of the old covenant pointed to because they did not see that the laws for remission of sins they were following were only shadow laws pointing to Jesus as the Savior of the world. Lets pray dear friend we do not find ourselves in the position of those under the old covenant who followed the laws for remission of sins but failed to understand what these laws pointed to.

Where I believe your post falls down here, is that according to the scriptures Jesus had to fulfill all scripture under the old covenant before he could be our perfect sacrifice for sin. The new covenant did not take place until after the death and resurrection of Jesus as the Christ and Savior of the world as the new covenant is based on the blood of Christ and his death for our sins *Hebrews 10:29; 1 Corinthians 11:25; Mathew 26:28.
In Exodus 20:6, God wanted His people to love Him and obey His commandments, in 1 John 5:3, to love God is to obey His commandments, which are not burdensome, and there are many other verses in both the OT and the NT that associate our obedience to God's commandments with our love for Him, while there is not a single verse that states that we do not love God by continuing to obey His commandments. We should live in a way that points towards Jesus by obeying God's laws rather than a way that points away from him. God's laws were given to testify about Jesus (John 5:39), so we do not reject Jesus by testifying about him, but just the opposite.
True this is what I have only posted on in my discussion to you. What I am asking you to prayerfully consider though based on the scriptures in the old and new testament is "are we obeying God by seeking to follow old covenant "shadow laws" for remission of sins when the very Christ that they point to has emerged from the shadows? We are now in a the new covenant made with better promises. Jesus is God's true sacrifice for sin that the "shadow laws" of the old covenant pointed to and Jesus is also now our true Great High Priest ministering on our behalf in the heavenly Sanctuary made without hands in the presence of God for us. Remember we do not want to make the same mistakes as those who knew the law but did not know who the law testified of in John 5:39; John 1:1-4
Again, Colossians 2:14-17 and Hebrews 10:1 do not say that they are foreshadows of what has already arrived, but rather they say that they are foreshadows of what is to come, and both were written after Jesus had arrived. We should live in a way that testifies about what is to come, but even if those verses had stated that they are fore shadows of what has already arrived, then we should live in a way that testifies that Jesus has arrived by obeying those laws rather than a way that denies that he has arrived by refusing to keep them. God's word commands us to keep God's holy days, so refusing to keep them is rejecting God's Word. We can't follow Christ by refusing to follow what he taught by word and by example. In Hebrew 8:10, the New Covenant still involves following God's law, not rejecting it.
This is more repetition that has been addressed earlier in other posts dear friend. Again as posted earlier, Paul states in Colossians 2:17 in context to Colossians 2:16 and the annual Feasts that they are shadows of the things to come; but the body is Christ's. Not all the Feast have their complete fulfillment (eg. Day of atonement - Yom Kippur; Feast of Tabernacles or booths - Sukkot; Feast of week - Shavuot ) as Jesus has not returned. Some feats have their fulfillment in the body of Christ to which they pointed to (Passover and Feast of Firstfruits) *1 Corinthians 5:7-8; 1 Corinthians 15:20 etc. Paul in Hebrews 10:1 is showing that the old testament laws for remission of sins were shadows of good things to come and says " For the law having a shadow of the good things to come, not the very image of the things, can never with the same sacrifices year by year, which they offer continually, make perfect them that draw nigh. Then goes on to show in Hebrews 10:2-10 how these laws are "fulfilled" in Christ. These scriptures show that the "shadow laws" for remission of sins from the old covenant are fulfilled in "the body of Christ" in the new covenant. They also show that there are others to be fulfilled in the future as posted above.
 
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Eilat

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Nowhere does the Bible say that God always understood that we can't keep any of it. On the contrary, in Deuteronomy 30:11-20,

Have you noticed that a Legalist will aways try to use the Old Testament, and the Old Covenant to try to undo or contradict the New Covenant and New Testament?
Let me give you some good advice.
Never try to use the OT to contradict the New Testament.
Never try to use God's word, against God's word.

Jesus gave us the Blood of God, and that is the New Testament, which is the New Covenant that replaced the Old Testament.
God said that the old covenant, or OT has a "fault", .God "found fault" with it.....so, He came as the Godman to restore us back into Himself, by the New Testament....New Covenant.

Try living there, as that is where you find Jesus existing.
 
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Soyeong

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Have you noticed that a Legalist

If God is a legalist for giving the Mosaic Law and if Jesus is a legalist for setting a sinless example for us to follow of how to obey it, then being a legalist would be being in good company, but that is not what legalism refers to. I am not a legalist for thinking that followers of God should follow God's laws any more than you are a legalist for thinking that the citizens of a country should follow its laws, but rather it is a sin not to follow God's laws.

will aways try to use the Old Testament, and the Old Covenant to try to undo or contradict the New Covenant and New Testament?
Let me give you some good advice.
Never try to use the OT to contradict the New Testament.
Never try to use God's word, against God's word.

I notably did not grant that the NT says that God always understood that we can't keep any of it, but it was wrong because Deuteronomy 30:11-20 contradicts it, but rather I denied that the NT says that, so I was not trying to under or contradict the NT, but I only contradicted an unbiblical claim that you made about what God always understood. If you think that what was said in the NT contradicts Deuteronomy 30:11-20, then you are the one making it out to be contradicting the OT, who is trying to use God's word against God's word.

In Acts 17:11, the Bereans were praised because they diligently tested everything that Paul said against OT Scripture to see if what he said was true, so the OT is the standard which we should use to determine that what is said in the NT is true. About 1/3 of the verses in the NT contain quotes or allusions to the OT, which the NT authors did thousands of times to show that it supported what they were saying and to show that they hadn't departed from it, so they certainly saw the OT as still being authoritative. For example, Jesus defeated all three of Satan's temptations with three quotes from Deuteronomy, so he certainly considered it to be authoritative. In Deuteronomy 4:2, it is a sin to add to or subtract from the Mosaic Law, and in Deuteronomy 13:4-5, the way that God instructed His people to determine that someone was a false prophet who was not speaking for him was if they contradicted what He had commanded, so God did not leave His people any room to follow anyone who does that, but none of the NT authors did that.

Jesus gave us the Blood of God, and that is the New Testament, which is the New Covenant that replaced the Old Testament.
God said that the old covenant, or OT has a "fault", .God "found fault" with it.....so, He came as the Godman to restore us back into Himself, by the New Testament....New Covenant.

Try living there, as that is where you find Jesus existing.

In Hebrews 8:6-9, it does not say that the fault that God found was on His end of the covenant in regard to His laws, but rather it says that God found fault with the people for not continuing in their covenant. Jesus set a sinless example of how to walk in obedience to the Mosaic Law, he did not hypocritically preach something other than what he practiced, and he did not establish the New Covenant in order to undermine anything that he spent his ministry teaching by word or by example, but rather the New Covenant still involves following the Mosaic Law (Hebrews 8:10).
 
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Soyeong

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[QUOTE="Soyeong, post: 75644693, member: 375022”]... the New Covenant still involves following the Mosaic Law (Hebrews 8:10).

What is the Mosaic law?

The Mosaic Law refers to all of the laws that God gave to Israel through Moses, which is traditionally counted at being 613 commandments, and which is inclusive of the Ten Commandments.
 
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LoveGodsWord

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The Mosaic Law refers to all of the laws that God gave to Israel through Moses, which is traditionally counted at being 613 commandments, and which is inclusive of the Ten Commandments.

Many of these laws of the 613 however (arouund 40%) are what we call "shadow laws" for remission of sins (Sanctuary laws, Levitical Priesthood laws, laws for remission of sins, and some of the annual Feast days) and have their fulfillment in Christ to who they pointed to under the new covenant. Now we keep them in a new and better way as outlined in the new covenant scriptures.
 
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Citizen of the Kingdom

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The book of the law written and spoken by Moses (Torah)
The Mosaic Law refers to all of the laws that God gave to Israel through Moses, which is traditionally counted at being 613 commandments, and which is inclusive of the Ten Commandments.
the New Covenant still involves following the Mosaic Law (Hebrews 8:10) No it doesn’t.
 
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klutedavid

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The book of the law written and spoken by Moses (Torah)
What does Paul mean by 'freedom'?

Galatians 5:13–16:
For you were called to freedom, brethren; only do not turn your freedom into an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another. For the whole Law is fulfilled in one word, in the statement, ‘you shall love your neighbor as yourself. . . .’ But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh.
 
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