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Clare73

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The fruit of the tree was to know the difference between good and evil. This was something Adam did NOT know prior.
He learned the difference at the cost of both spiritual and physical life.

And that's were we get, "Curiosity killed the cat."
I like the unanswered question God asked Adam. "Who told you that you were naked?" Who indeed. At the end of chapter two they were naked and unashamed.

Devil Talkin'
 
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Saint Steven

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He learned the difference at the cost of both spiritual and physical life.
But you claimed he already knew the difference. So, you are agreeing with me then?

Saint Steven said:
The fruit of the tree was to know the difference between good and evil. This was something Adam did NOT know prior.
 
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Saint Steven

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Thanks. . .can you sum it up in 29 words or less.
All these verses below use the same NT Greek word, "aionios", the Greek word mistranslated as "eternal" and "everlasting" in Matthew 25:46. See bold below. This shows that "aionios" cannot mean eternal or everlasting.

Matthew 13:22
The seed falling among the thorns refers to someone who hears the word, but the worries of this life and the deceitfulness of wealth choke the word, making it unfruitful.

Romans 12:2
Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will.

1 Corinthians 1:20
Where is the wise person? Where is the teacher of the law? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world?

1 Corinthians 2:8
None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

Ephesians 2:2
in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient.
 
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Clare73

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But you claimed he already knew the difference. So, you are agreeing with me then?
Indeed!
aint Steven said:
The fruit of the tree was to know the difference between good and evil. This was something Adam did NOT know prior.
 
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St_Worm2

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Not our biased and conflicted translation of the Bible evidently. The RCC cooked the book. We are fortunate that they overlooked a few verses that tell us the truth about Universal Salvation.
Hmm, so the Bible is the breathed word of the RCC, not the word of God :scratch: If the RCC was actually able to do that, to pull off "cooking the Book" as you said, then in Yoda-speak, "powerful are they" ;)

This would also mean that no one throughout NT history has ever questioned what the RCC teaches, but that would require us to believe that things like the Protestant Reformation never happened, that such things are no more than fables and old wives tales, rather than historical truth.

The fact is, theologians, historians, linguists, etc., have never stopped looking into the Scriptures to deepen their understanding of them, as well to prove or disprove what was taught about the Bible by their predecessors, and that even from within the confines of the RCC itself.

There is no 2,000+ year conspiracy to make the Bible say something that God never intended it to, because that would involve millions of theologians, linguists, apologists, pastors, historians and laymen (all of them, in fact, from every corner of orthodox Christendom) agreeing together as one to confirm something as true about the word of God that they all know is not true :eek:

--David
 
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Saint Steven

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Hmm, so the Bible is the breathed word of the RCC, not the word of God :scratch: If the RCC was actually able to do that, to pull off "cooking the Book" as you said, then in Yoda-speak, "powerful are they" ;)

This would also mean that no one throughout NT history has ever questioned what the RCC teaches, but that would require us to believe that things like the Protestant Reformation never happened, that such things are no more than fables and old wives tales, rather than historical truth.

The fact is, theologians, historians, linguists, etc., have never stopped looking into the Scriptures to deepen their understanding of them, as well to prove or disprove what was taught about the Bible by their predecessors, and that even from within the confines of the RCC itself.

There is no 2,000+ year conspiracy to make the Bible say something that God never intended it to, because that would involve millions of theologians, linguists, apologists, pastors, historians and laymen (all of them, in fact, from every corner of orthodox Christendom) agreeing together as one to confirm something as true about the word of God that they all know is not true :eek:

--David
Translation: You didn't watch the video. - LOL

I'm not tossing out the whole book, just complaining about the Damnationist bias concerning scriptures that deal with the final judgment. I hope that helps.

Post #205 above is a short post about the NT word "aionios", mistranslated as "eternal" and "everlasting" in Matthew 25:46. The video covers more than I could in a short post.
 
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Saint Steven

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Hmm, so the Bible is the breathed word of the RCC, not the word of God :scratch: If the RCC was actually able to do that, to pull off "cooking the Book" as you said, then in Yoda-speak, "powerful are they" ;)

This would also mean that no one throughout NT history has ever questioned what the RCC teaches, but that would require us to believe that things like the Protestant Reformation never happened, that such things are no more than fables and old wives tales, rather than historical truth.

The fact is, theologians, historians, linguists, etc., have never stopped looking into the Scriptures to deepen their understanding of them, as well to prove or disprove what was taught about the Bible by their predecessors, and that even from within the confines of the RCC itself.

There is no 2,000+ year conspiracy to make the Bible say something that God never intended it to, because that would involve millions of theologians, linguists, apologists, pastors, historians and laymen (all of them, in fact, from every corner of orthodox Christendom) agreeing together as one to confirm something as true about the word of God that they all know is not true :eek:

--David
Universalism was most common in the eastern (orthodox/greek) church. The western (latin/romish) church took a different view. They were the ones that canonized (collected/voted) and translated the Bible. (with obvious Damnationist bias)

"The Encyclopedia of Religious Knowledge"
by Schaff-Herzog, 1908, volume 12, page 96
German theologian- Philip Schaff writes :

"In the first five or six centuries of Christianity there were six theological schools, of which four (Alexandria, Antioch, Caesarea, and Edessa, or Nisibis) were Universalist, one (Ephesus) accepted conditional immortality; one (Carthage or Rome) taught endless punishment of the wicked. Other theological schools are mentioned as founded by Universalists, but their actual doctrine on this subject is not known."
 
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what’s concerning is that many people think they know Jesus and will get into the kingdom, yet he will tell them on judgement day, I never knew you.

And for those who have labored in vain, some maybe with unselfish motives, do they reap annihilation? Is that an equal scale?
 
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You don't "create" sin, like you don't create darkness (Ge 1:2-4).

Sin, like darkness, is the absence of--darkness is the absence of light, and sin is the absence of "hitting the mark" (righteousness).

then most certainly "God is not the author of evil." PERIOD!

Hello, you might be at odds with God on this one:

I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. (Is 45:7)

Now God is impressing His authority on Cyrus in this passage. It is clearly a very important historical moment for God to make such powerful declarations as to His omnipotence and sovereignty.

That's because He is setting things up for the salvation of the nations, where Cyrus almost 200 years later receives the scroll from Daniel naming him, and begins the process of the restoration of 2nd temple Judaism, leading to Calvary.

And God swears this oath to Cyrus:
I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear. (Isa 45:23)

Was He just horsing around? Perish the thought!

We find at the eschaton:
Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? for thou only art holy: for all nations shall come and worship before thee; for thy judgments are made manifest. (Rev 15:4)

And then:
The nations will walk by its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their glory into it. (Rev 21:4)...and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations (Rev 22:2b).

So God doesn't muck about when it comes to salvation, there's no 'doing things by halves'. It's guaranteed, sealed indelibly in holy blood for all time. All creation returns to God via Christ (1 Cor 15:28).
 
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He doesn't just hate the sin...
He actually hates the sin and the sinner:

" For thou [art] not a God that hath pleasure in wickedness: neither shall evil dwell with thee.
5 The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity.
6 Thou shalt destroy them that speak leasing: the Lord will abhor the bloody and deceitful man."
( Psalms 5:4-6 ).

He loves whom He loves, and hates whom He hates ( Romans 9:13-18 ).

You speak as though God is capricious and arbitrary.

He hates wanton hoes:
Moreover the LORD saith, Because the daughters of Zion are haughty, and walk with stretched forth necks and wanton eyes, walking and mincing as they go, and making a tinkling with their feet: Therefore the Lord will strike with a scab the crown of the head of the daughters of Zion, And the LORD will uncover their secret parts. (Is 3:16-17)

The aim is not to burn them in hell forever, but to bring them to repentance, often through chastisement/ tribulation. The rhetoric is retributive and destructive, but the object is restorative and corrective.

For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all. (Rom 11:32)

So it's the same result mate. If He hates the sinner He destroys the sin, thereby producing destruction of the old man, repentance and deliverance of the new man in Christ.
 
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Ditto to the overwhelming joy as the Holy Spirit penetrated every part of my being, including places I didn't even know I had. I could hardly breathe!

Praise the Lord!

And so the HS of amazing grace you know so intimately is the same as the one that dogma tells you sends ppl to burn in hell forever.

Something not adding up? Please apply reason, it is your duty to use the faculties God has given you.
 
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Clare73

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All these verses below use the same NT Greek word, "aionios", the Greek word mistranslated as "eternal" and "everlasting" in Matthew 25:46. See bold below. This shows that "aionios" cannot mean eternal or everlasting.
Thanks.

So? . . ."for ever and ever" (Gr: ages of ages--now that's a long time) works for me (Rev 14:11, 20:10).

Not to mention the Latin aeternalis and the French aeternus mean "of infinite duration; everlasting."
So "eternal" is a good English translation of "ages of ages.

However, I see "eternal life" as qualitative as much as quantitative.

It is God's own life (qualitative) within one's spirit.
In the context of its usage in the NT, it indicates an infinitely high quality of life in fellowship with God, both now and forever.

And since that life is forever, the Latin aeternalis and the French aeternus meaning "of infinite duration; everlasting" therefore make "eternal life" not only qualitative, but also quantitative--without end.

We don't agree on the "eternal" thing.

Matthew 13:22
The seed falling among the thorns refers to someone who hears the word, but the worries of this life and the deceitfulness of wealth choke the word, making it unfruitful.

Romans 12:2
Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will.

1 Corinthians 1:20
Where is the wise person? Where is the teacher of the law? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world?

1 Corinthians 2:8
None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

Ephesians 2:2
in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient.
 
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Clare73

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Hello, you might be at odds with God on this one:

I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. (Is 45:7)

Now God is impressing His authority on Cyrus in this passage. It is clearly a very important historical moment for God to make such powerful declarations as to His omnipotence and sovereignty.

That's because He is setting things up for the salvation of the nations, where Cyrus almost 200 years later receives the scroll from Daniel naming him, and begins the process of the restoration of 2nd temple Judaism, leading to Calvary.

And God swears this oath to Cyrus:
I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear. (Isa 45:23)

Was He just horsing around? Perish the thought!

We find at the eschaton:
Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? for thou only art holy: for all nations shall come and worship before thee; for thy judgments are made manifest. (Rev 15:4)

And then:
The nations will walk by its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their glory into it. (Rev 21:4)...and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations (Rev 22:2b).

So God doesn't muck about when it comes to salvation, there's no 'doing things by halves'. It's guaranteed, sealed indelibly in holy blood for all time. All creation returns to God via Christ (1 Cor 15:28).
Excellent!

For me, 40 lashes, save one across the nose with a wet noodle.
 
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Clare73

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Praise the Lord!

And so the HS of amazing grace you know so intimately is the same as the one that dogma tells you sends ppl to burn in hell forever.

Something not adding up? Please apply reason, it is your duty to use the faculties God has given you.
God gave me a new and higher faculty than reason at my rebirth--faith.
Now my reason serves my faith, rather than unbelief.

I take my understanding of God from his own revelation of himself, not from my own sentiments.

What you don't realize is that at the Final Judgment, those who are condemned don't want to be in God's heaven praising him for all eternity. That idea is repugnant to them.

Hell is the only other alternative.
 
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eleos1954

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Do you know why people say this God is the God of Wrath and Judgement?

What about God is spirit, joy, peace, forbearance, gentleness, forgiveness, merciful, loving?

The wrath of God is His displeasure against sin and evil. It is God's just and righteous response of judgment against sin, apostasy, unfairness, and injustice both within and without the community of God's people.

God's wrath does not appear to be a permanent attribute of God, that is to say something that by nature constantly characterizes Him and His actions. Since His wrath is not irrational, there's always a reason for it or something that provokes it (Deut. 4:24). It is provoked by sin, and it is fundamentally His reaction to the irrational presence of sin and evil in the life of His creatures and in the world (Rom. 1:18). Therefore His wrath is momentary, coming to an end once its good purpose is achieved. Contrast that with His love that endures forever (Isa. 54:8).

God's love and His wrath are not incompatible. He is both just and loving.
 
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Saint Steven

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We don't agree on the "eternal" thing.
Just to be clear, I'm not saying that eternal life isn't eternal. (both quantitatively and qualitatively) We agree on that.

What I am saying is that the NT Greek word, "aionios", is mistranslated as "eternal" and "everlasting" in Matthew 25:46.

According to the video, it should be translated to read: "in the age [to come]". Like this:

“Then they will go away to punishment in the age [to come], but the righteous to life in the age [to come].”

Compare: Matthew 12:32; Mark 10:30; Luke 18:30; Luke 20:35; Ephesians 1:21

Luke 18:29-30
“Truly I tell you,” Jesus said to them, “no one who has left home or wife or brothers or sisters or parents or children for the sake of the kingdom of God 30 will fail to receive many times as much in this age, and in the age to come eternal life.”

Saint Steven said:
All these verses below use the same NT Greek word, "aionios", the Greek word mistranslated as "eternal" and "everlasting" in Matthew 25:46. See bold below. This shows that "aionios" cannot mean eternal or everlasting.
 
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Clare73

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Just to be clear, I'm not saying that eternal life isn't eternal. (both quantitatively and qualitatively) We agree on that.

What I am saying is that the NT Greek word, "aionios", is mistranslated as "eternal" and "everlasting" in Matthew 25:46.
And in all those translations, where the noun is unending (life, torment, fire, etc.), the adjective "eternal" is a good rendering of aionios.
According to the video, it should be translated to read: "in the age [to come]". Like this:

“Then they will go away to punishment in the age [to come], but the righteous to life in the age [to come].”

Compare: Matthew 12:32; Mark 10:30; Luke 18:30; Luke 20:35; Ephesians 1:21

Luke 18:29-30
“Truly I tell you,” Jesus said to them, “no one who has left home or wife or brothers or sisters or parents or children for the sake of the kingdom of God 30 will fail to receive many times as much in this age, and in the age to come eternal life.”

Saint Steven said:
All these verses below use the same NT Greek word, "aionios", the Greek word mistranslated as "eternal" and "everlasting" in Matthew 25:46. See bold below. This shows that "aionios" cannot mean eternal or everlasting.
 
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Saint Steven

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And in all those translations, where the noun is unending (life, torment, fire, etc.), the adjective "eternal" is a good rendering of aionios.
That's where we disagree. The video is made by a Greek speaking Bible scholar. Well worth watching.

Saint Steven said:
Just to be clear, I'm not saying that eternal life isn't eternal. (both quantitatively and qualitatively) We agree on that.

What I am saying is that the NT Greek word, "aionios", is mistranslated as "eternal" and "everlasting" in Matthew 25:46.

Aionios, the Greek word translated as "eternal" and "everlasting" in the Bible (eternal hell?)
The doctrine of eternal hell is so shocking that it deserves careful examination. In this video we discuss the meaning of the word "aionios" by its other appearances in the Bible.
 
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