Does knock mean hammer like a maniac?

Andrewn · Jan 1, 2021

Hmm said:
But when his wife died he felt a desperate need for comfort and help. He didn't find this help from his friends and so looked to God as the only source thst could help him but felt whne he knocked on that door that it wasn't opened. In fact he felt it was slammed in his face and bolted and he just felt a big silence. I don't know how this developed in his later life.

I kind of remember the wonderful 1993 movie "Shadowlands" about CS Lewis' marriage. The following article describes his feelings after Joy's death:

C. S. Lewis on the Death of His Wife – Pondering Principles.

There are no adequate words to reduce this kind of grief and wrap the mind around it, only a question to God: Why?

"A Grief Observed remains powerful precisely because Lewis does not come to lovely conclusions about his God or his religion or his suffering. He asks many more questions than he answers. He rants, questions, weeps and feels terrible, deservedly sorry for himself and for the woman he loved so much and has now lost. And in doing so, he renders in prose what it really feels like to grieve."

Beanieboy · Jan 1, 2021

Mark Quayle said:
One thing I think CS Lewis would agree with me about is that God neither owes us an answer, nor --and more to the point here-- would we necessarily be able to understand the answer he gives.

Then how can God ask us to pray, ask and it be given, have any kind of relationship with him?

Imagine your Earthly father with you as a child. He/She says, "Daddy, why is the sky blue?" You either:
a) say nothing because you don't owe your child an answer or
b) say: it's a refraction of light. It's too complicated for you to understand," and dismiss the child.

You arrive at his birthday party after it is over.
A) You tell him you don't have to answer to your child bc you are the parent, or
B) tell him the reason you were late is too complicated for him to understand.

If God asks us to pray and speak to him, it follows that he would do the same.

A favorite CS Lewis quote (taken rather out of context): "I saw well why the gods do not speak to us openly, nor let us answer. Till that word can be dug out of us, why should they hear the babble that we think we mean? How can they meet us face to face till we have faces?” --from "Till We Have Faces", a Fable Retold.

Psalm 27 · Jan 1, 2021

Beanieboy said:
Then how can God ask us to pray, ask and it be given, have any kind of relationship with him?

Imagine your Earthly father with you as a child. He/She says, "Daddy, why is the sky blue?" You either:
a) say nothing because you don't owe your child an answer or
b) say: it's a refraction of light. It's too complicated for you to understand," and dismiss the child.

You arrive at his birthday party after it is over.
A) You tell him you don't have to answer to your child bc you are the parent, or
B) tell him the reason you were late is too complicated for him to understand.

If God asks us to pray and speak to him, it follows that he would do the same.

There’s only one God. Jesus

Hmm · Jan 1, 2021

Andrewn said:
I kind of remember the wonderful 1993 movie "Shadowlands" about CS Lewis' marriage. The following article describes his feelings after Joy's death:

C. S. Lewis on the Death of His Wife – Pondering Principles.

There are no adequate words to reduce this kind of grief and wrap the mind around it, only a question to God: Why?

"A Grief Observed remains powerful precisely because Lewis does not come to lovely conclusions about his God or his religion or his suffering. He asks many more questions than he answers. He rants, questions, weeps and feels terrible, deservedly sorry for himself and for the woman he loved so much and has now lost. And in doing so, he renders in prose what it really feels like to grieve."

What a great article and thanks for sharing it. I'd encourage everyone to read it but I know probably most won't as I never do when I see a link in a post

. So let me just paste the final part because it is so good and positive:

"Three months after losing Joy, he wrote to Chad Walsh and his wife. Walsh was an American professor who had written the first analytical book about Lewis back in the 1940s—C. S. Lewis: Apostle to the Skeptics. Here we see the balance:

I knew without being told how you would both feel about Joy’s death. What I did not know was the touching fact that our joint happiness had added something to your own. It was a wonderful marriage. Even after all hope was gone, even on the last night before her death, there were “patins of bright gold.” Two of the last things she said were “You have made me happy” and “I am at peace with God.”

Wouldn’t we all like to end our lives that way, with two sterling testimonies? To look at a loved one and say “You have made me happy” is a wonderful testimony for this earthly life; to say “I am at peace with God” is the entrance to an eternal joy.""

LoricaLady · Jan 1, 2021

Hmm said:
I think this is a good question from CS Lewis and one I've often wondered about:

"Knock and it shall be opened.' But does knocking mean hammering and kicking the door like a maniac?"
C.S. Lewis, A Grief Observed

The following verses say that God will give us "good things" if we ask him:

Matthew 7:7-11
7 Ask, and it will be given you; search, and you will find; knock, and the door will be opened for you. 8 For everyone who asks receives, and everyone who searches finds, and for everyone who knocks, the door will be opened. 9 Is there anyone among you who, if your child asks for bread, will give a stone? 10 Or if the child asks for a fish, will give a snake? 11 If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good things to those who ask him!

I imagine that we've all asked God for something that we regarded as good, as something that would benefit others as well as ourselves, such as peace or the removal of an addiction or something like that, but felt that we did not receive it. So what does this passage mean?

I have wondered myself about the keep on knocking etc. passage. There seems to be more than one way that I can look at it, and I’m not sure which way is right.

First of all, like myself, I feel many people have just asked once and then gotten some great, sometimes even miraculous, results. It also seems to me that if we ask right the first time, that is in humility and faith, then the Lord already heard us, and we don’t need to keep asking over and over.

To keep on asking could mean in general to keep on praying, as we were told to do so without ceasing. Or, seems to me, it could mean that if you didn’t ask with the right heart, if you asked amiss, try, try again until you get it right. Maybe even with fasting if you were very healthy.

Now I will address the word hammer used in the OP. In the word of the Lord we were told that his Word is a hammer that breaks the rock, I. E. barriers and problems in our lives.

When Messiah was in the desert he defeated the devil simply by speaking the Word.

Joshua was told that he was not to let the word depart from his mouth, so that he could have good success.

And some say the right translation is to mutter, not just to meditate. In Psalm 1 we are told we will prosper in all they do if we meditate/mutter on the Word day and night.

I think those Bible verses are much neglected. I think, personally, for my own experiences in prayer and with rhemas, that our heavenly father literally wants us to be speaking the word day and night as much as practical.

I personally have an alpha list of Bible verses to go through. Like A is for angels watching over us snd for all authority been given to Messiah, and B is for things like being bold in prayer and so on.

there are many scripture only Bible promises videos on YouTube which I also like to speak along with. And then there are scripture only songs, from places like Integrity music, sons of Korah, JumpStart 3 and so on, which I sing along with daily here and there.

Singing is a form of spiritual warfare. For example David sang and played the harp and evil spirits were released that were bothering king Saul. When overwhelming armies were advancing against Israel, King Jehoshaphat had the priest to go before the armies singing praises. Consequently the armies turned on one another and everyone was killed, and furthermore there were three days of booty for the Israelites.

Paul and Silas were singing praise songs when they had the miraculous release from prison.

There is incredible power in speaking and singing the word, and I think we all need to hook into that power, especially in these last days.

Mark Quayle · Jan 1, 2021

Beanieboy said:
Then how can God ask us to pray, ask and it be given, have any kind of relationship with him?

Imagine your Earthly father with you as a child. He/She says, "Daddy, why is the sky blue?" You either:
a) say nothing because you don't owe your child an answer or
b) say: it's a refraction of light. It's too complicated for you to understand," and dismiss the child.

You arrive at his birthday party after it is over.
A) You tell him you don't have to answer to your child bc you are the parent, or
B) tell him the reason you were late is too complicated for him to understand.

If God asks us to pray and speak to him, it follows that he would do the same.

I don't say God doesn't speak to us. but that we can't very well understand. He has given his Word, and we use it, and try to understand, and no doubt, do understand some of it, but we also don't understand.

You compare him to an earthly father --he is not.

Our praying is communication with him, specially since we have his spirit in us. I don't by any means claim we don't communicate with him. But he owes us no answer at all, nevermind to answer us on our terms. But he is kind and full of grace, not holding even our self-assumed status, (of existence in and of oneself), against us.

Mark Quayle · Jan 1, 2021

Psalm 27 said:
Another good reason to avoid c.s.lewis

Explain

Hmm · Jan 1, 2021

LoricaLady said:
When Messiah was in the desert he defeated the devil simply by speaking the Word.

This story led to the Christian tradition of meditation/contemplation which was started by the Desert Fathers who went to live in the deserts of Egypt to practice this. They were inspired by the fact that Jesus didn't converse, negotiate or debate with Satan when he tempted Him in the wilderness - He simply dismissed him by quoting a line if scripture. Their meditative practice was similarly to repeat a prayer word (mantra) such as "Maranatha", which is Aramaic for "Come Lord" when faced with emotions such as lust, anger or more complex mental events such as insecurity (they embraced poverty and had no worldyy possessions) instead of getting caught up in or trying to rationalise their way out of these thoughts and feelings. It's identical in essence to meditation/mindfulness as it is presented today when stripped of its Buddhist trappings.

Psalm 27 · Jan 1, 2021

Mark Quayle said:
Explain

The Inklings - Wikipedia

aiki · Jan 1, 2021

Hmm said:
I think this is a good question from CS Lewis and one I've often wondered about:

"Knock and it shall be opened.' But does knocking mean hammering and kicking the door like a maniac?"
C.S. Lewis, A Grief Observed

The following verses say that God will give us "good things" if we ask him:

Matthew 7:7-11
7 Ask, and it will be given you; search, and you will find; knock, and the door will be opened for you. 8 For everyone who asks receives, and everyone who searches finds, and for everyone who knocks, the door will be opened. 9 Is there anyone among you who, if your child asks for bread, will give a stone? 10 Or if the child asks for a fish, will give a snake? 11 If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good things to those who ask him!

I imagine that we've all asked God for something that we regarded as good, as something that would benefit others as well as ourselves, such as peace or the removal of an addiction or something like that, but felt that we did not receive it. So what does this passage mean?

As others have no doubt already pointed out, the passage from Matthew 7 doesn't say anything about "hammering and kicking the door like a maniac." The parallel passage in the Gospel of Luke offers a bit more clarification on what is in view in Jesus's remarks:

Luke 11:9-13
9 "So I say to you, ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you.
10 "For everyone who asks, receives; and he who seeks, finds; and to him who knocks, it will be opened.
11 "Now suppose one of you fathers is asked by his son for a fish; he will not give him a snake instead of a fish, will he?
12 "Or if he is asked for an egg, he will not give him a scorpion, will he?
13 "If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask Him?"

In this passage it is made clear that Jesus is not speaking about giving to us just anything we might ask for, but specifically of giving the Holy Spirit. In the giving of the Spirit to us, Jesus says, God will not stint, but imparts the Holy Spirit to us without hesitation or partiality. This giving of the Spirit is, of course, the means of one's spiritual regeneration (Titus 3:5; Romans 8:9-11; 1 John 4:13) and so, Jesus is actually speaking, in a somewhat cloaked manner, of God's goodness and willingness in giving sinners new spiritual life in the Spirit.

This passage from Luke 11 appears in context with the following:

Luke 11:5-8
5 Then He said to them, "Suppose one of you has a friend, and goes to him at midnight and says to him, 'Friend, lend me three loaves;
6 for a friend of mine has come to me from a journey, and I have nothing to set before him';
7 and from inside he answers and says, 'Do not bother me; the door has already been shut and my children and I are in bed; I cannot get up and give you anything.'
8 "I tell you, even though he will not get up and give him anything because he is his friend, yet because of his persistence he will get up and give him as much as he needs.

I've often heard believers use this passage as grounds for pestering God, being persistent with Him, in prayer. I think this application of the passage misuses it, however. What happens between the two friends is set in contrast to how God deals with us. We have the reluctant friend helping out because he is importuned, but God gives to us (His Spirit) freely and fully. The message of these two passages in Luke 11 is, then, not that we must pester and importune God, but exactly the reverse. God is ready and willing to give us of Himself, of His Spirit, in redemption and transformation of us if we'll only ask Him to.

LoricaLady · Jan 1, 2021

Mark Quayle said:
Explain

There are articles on Google, and vids on the net, which show that C.S. Lewis was, per them and per what I have come to believe, basically a pagan making a buck off the Bible. I do not have time to get the links but they are probably easy to find if you type in "pagan C.S. Lewis."

Just one example comes to mind. In one of his Narnia stories you see the children cavorting with demonic, pagan, creatures. I don't have time to debate any of it, sorry. Either one sees it or one doesn't.

As for his friend, J.R.R. Tolkien, his symbolism is often associated with the Illuminati and paganism in general, like the all seeing eye of Sauron. Again, believe it or not. Up to you.

There are so many wolves in sheep's clothing and those are two, among others, that fooled me in the past.

Mark Quayle · Jan 1, 2021

LoricaLady said:
There are articles on Google, and vids on the net, which show that C.S. Lewis was, per them and per what I have come to believe, basically a pagan making a buck off the Bible. I do not have time to get the links but they are probably easy to find if you type in "pagan C.S. Lewis."

Just one example comes to mind. In one of his Narnia stories you see the children cavorting with demonic, pagan, creatures. I don't have time to debate any of it, sorry. Either one sees it or one doesn't.

As for his friend, J.R.R. Tolkien, his symbolism is often associated with the Illuminati and paganism in general, like the all seeing eye of Sauron. Again, believe it or not. Up to you.

There are so many wolves in sheep's clothing and those are two, among others, that fooled me in the past.

Thanks for explaining. For whatever it might be worth, I'd bet much of what you have solidified in your mind concerning the truth of the Gospel is a result of what CS Lewis has defended as a Christian apologist and otherwise written about. I know that doesn't justify anything he did wrong, but it is something to think about.

As relates to the quote, (as far as I know) CS Lewis never claimed to believe in multiple Gods, but to use the fiction in this "fable retold" to make many excellent points concerning the differences between God and man, particularly concerning the struggles of man with life and God, as a result of man's self-importance, vanity, ignorance and so on, and the austerity of God over life. More obscurely, too, the absolute control of God over everything, and perhaps even implying God's intimate dealings with all details.

Also for what it is worth, CS Lewis has been a huge influence in my life since even my childhood (I am 65 years old), and I come away with no notions of taking paganism as anything but pagan, nor of accepting any anti-Biblical supposed facts or philosophies.

But what I was asking you about most specifically was why do you take that particular quote as "Another good reason to avoid CS Lewis." What about the quote is the problem?

Psalm 27 · Jan 1, 2021

Mark Quayle said:
Thanks for explaining. For whatever it might be worth, I'd bet much of what you have solidified in your mind concerning the truth of the Gospel is a result of what CS Lewis has defended as a Christian apologist and otherwise written about. I know that doesn't justify anything he did wrong, but it is something to think about.

As relates to the quote, (as far as I know) CS Lewis never claimed to believe in multiple Gods, but to use the fiction in this "fable retold" to make many excellent points concerning the differences between God and man, particularly concerning the struggles of man with life and God, as a result of man's self-importance, vanity, ignorance and so on, and the austerity of God over life. More obscurely, too, the absolute control of God over everything, and perhaps even implying God's intimate dealings with all details.

Also for what it is worth, CS Lewis has been a huge influence in my life since even my childhood (I am 65 years old), and I come away with no notions of taking paganism as anything but pagan, nor of accepting any anti-Biblical supposed facts or philosophies.

But what I was asking you about most specifically was why do you take that particular quote as "Another good reason to avoid CS Lewis." What about the quote is the problem?

The quote mentions ‘gods’. There’s only one God, all others are false/counterfeits/phoney/make believe.
I used to be a fan, and only realised a few years ago that Lewis, Tolkien, Rowling etc, wrote pagan literature. (Rowling was obviously more apparent)
Anything to do with witches, wizards, spiritualism, spells etc is an abomination to The Lord. Deuteronomy 18:10-12

Mark Quayle · Jan 1, 2021

Psalm 27 said:
The quote mentions ‘gods’. There’s only one God, all others are false/counterfeits/phoney/make believe.
I used to be a fan, and only realised a few years ago that Lewis, Tolkien, Rowling etc, wrote pagan literature. (Rowling was obviously more apparent)
Anything to do with witches, wizards, spiritualism, spells etc is an abomination to The Lord. Deuteronomy 18:10-12

Thanks for explaining further. I would answer that the quote is, in effect, Lewis' quote of the protagonist's thinking --not Lewis' own thinking.

Do you believe we should eschew all pagan literature, or just the kind dealing with witchcraft, pagan theology and such? Where do you draw the line?

Hmm · Jan 1, 2021

Mark Quayle said:
Thanks for explaining further. I would answer that the quote is, in effect, Lewis' quote of the protagonist's thinking --not Lewis' own thinking.

Do you believe we should eschew all pagan literature, or just the kind dealing with witchcraft, pagan theology and such? Where do you draw the line?

Absolutely. For anyone to say that Tolkien and Lewis are pagan devil worshippers is absurd. Their Christianity played a major role in their writings. Lewis used analogy as with the Lion representing Christ. Tolkien disliked analogy but his writings were full of indirect Christian symbolism.

Mark Quayle · Jan 1, 2021

Psalm 27 said:
The quote mentions ‘gods’. There’s only one God, all others are false/counterfeits/phoney/make believe.
I used to be a fan, and only realised a few years ago that Lewis, Tolkien, Rowling etc, wrote pagan literature. (Rowling was obviously more apparent)
Anything to do with witches, wizards, spiritualism, spells etc is an abomination to The Lord. Deuteronomy 18:10-12

Ha, my bad. Somehow I mistook you for the same as LoricaLady.

But thanks for your answer anyway.

Mark Quayle · Jan 1, 2021

Andrewn said:
I kind of remember the wonderful 1993 movie "Shadowlands" about CS Lewis' marriage. The following article describes his feelings after Joy's death:

C. S. Lewis on the Death of His Wife – Pondering Principles.

There are no adequate words to reduce this kind of grief and wrap the mind around it, only a question to God: Why?

"A Grief Observed remains powerful precisely because Lewis does not come to lovely conclusions about his God or his religion or his suffering. He asks many more questions than he answers. He rants, questions, weeps and feels terrible, deservedly sorry for himself and for the woman he loved so much and has now lost. And in doing so, he renders in prose what it really feels like to grieve."

Thanks for the link and the description.

Mark Quayle · Jan 1, 2021

Hmm said:
I think this is a good question from CS Lewis and one I've often wondered about:

"Knock and it shall be opened.' But does knocking mean hammering and kicking the door like a maniac?"
C.S. Lewis, A Grief Observed

The following verses say that God will give us "good things" if we ask him:

Matthew 7:7-11
7 Ask, and it will be given you; search, and you will find; knock, and the door will be opened for you. 8 For everyone who asks receives, and everyone who searches finds, and for everyone who knocks, the door will be opened. 9 Is there anyone among you who, if your child asks for bread, will give a stone? 10 Or if the child asks for a fish, will give a snake? 11 If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good things to those who ask him!

I imagine that we've all asked God for something that we regarded as good, as something that would benefit others as well as ourselves, such as peace or the removal of an addiction or something like that, but felt that we did not receive it. So what does this passage mean?

It may be worth mentioning Jacob, wrestling with the Angel, in Genesis 32. Likewise, the widow complaining to the unjust judge, in Luke:
"18 Then Jesus told his disciples a parable to show them that they should always pray and not give up. 2 He said: “In a certain town there was a judge who neither feared God nor cared what people thought. 3 And there was a widow in that town who kept coming to him with the plea, ‘Grant me justice against my adversary.’

4 “For some time he refused. But finally he said to himself, ‘Even though I don’t fear God or care what people think, 5 yet because this widow keeps bothering me, I will see that she gets justice, so that she won’t eventually come and attack me!’”

6 And the Lord said, “Listen to what the unjust judge says. 7 And will not God bring about justice for his chosen ones, who cry out to him day and night? Will he keep putting them off? 8 I tell you, he will see that they get justice, and quickly. However, when the Son of Man comes, will he find faith on the earth?”

LoricaLady · Jan 1, 2021

Mark Quayle said:
Thanks for explaining. For whatever it might be worth, I'd bet much of what you have solidified in your mind concerning the truth of the Gospel is a result of what CS Lewis has defended as a Christian apologist and otherwise written about. I know that doesn't justify anything he did wrong, but it is something to think about.

As relates to the quote, (as far as I know) CS Lewis never claimed to believe in multiple Gods, but to use the fiction in this "fable retold" to make many excellent points concerning the differences between God and man, particularly concerning the struggles of man with life and God, as a result of man's self-importance, vanity, ignorance and so on, and the austerity of God over life. More obscurely, too, the absolute control of God over everything, and perhaps even implying God's intimate dealings with all details.

Also for what it is worth, CS Lewis has been a huge influence in my life since even my childhood (I am 65 years old), and I come away with no notions of taking paganism as anything but pagan, nor of accepting any anti-Biblical supposed facts or philosophies.

But what I was asking you about most specifically was why do you take that particular quote as "Another good reason to avoid CS Lewis." What about the quote is the problem?

Seems there is a little mix up. I wasn't the one who said any quote, quoted here on this string, was another reason to avoid C.S. Lewis.

I think many baby Christians, or about to become baby Christians, like myself in the past, find Lewis to be inspiring. I didn't initially see the pagan elements at all. I saw what I wanted to see, a Christian allegory. You can't mix the cup of demons with the cup of the Lord and make our Heavenly Father happy, though. That is what Lewis did. But the Father is merciful to His children and has protected so many of us from being hurt by Lewis.

Psalm 27 · Jan 2, 2021

LoricaLady said:
Seems there is a little mix up. I wasn't the one who said any quote, quoted here on this string, was another reason to avoid C.S. Lewis.

I think many baby Christians, or about to become baby Christians, like myself in the past, find Lewis to be inspiring. I didn't initially see the pagan elements at all. I saw what I wanted to see, a Christian allegory. You can't mix the cup of demons with the cup of the Lord and make our Heavenly Father happy, though. That is what Lewis did. But the Father is merciful to His children and has protected so many of us from being hurt by Lewis.

Does knock mean hammer like a maniac?

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