If salvation was by deeds

One could simplify the model of JSG (Justification, Sanctification, and Glorification).

1. Salvation by God's grace by faith.
2. Salvation by God cleansing us from sin, and being fruitful by an obedient faith.
3. Salvation by God taking us home to be with Him in His Kingdom by faith.

Bible Highlighter said:

I would prefer to simply not use the phrase because it is easily misunderstood. But I can understand if you used it for evangelistic purposes. I just don't like it because it reminds me of the phrases used in the Belief Alone camp of believers.

Click to expand...

Agreed, I don't use the phrase. I was only pointing out that we are saved from a penalty for sin - a big penalty applied to the entire human race.

Bible Highlighter said:

One could simplify the model of JSG (Justification, Sanctification, and Glorification).

1. Salvation by God's grace by faith.
2. Salvation by God cleansing us from sin, and being fruitful by an obedient faith.
3. Salvation by God taking us home to be with Him in His Kingdom by faith.

Click to expand...

A few quick observations:

- #1 applies to all 3. It's really a statement of His entire Salvation Plan from eternity. This is actually part of what I think Eph2:8 is pointing to.
- #2 cleansing, like sanctification, also takes place at #1, as well as throughout #2.
- I'd probably put the "work" info in there. But I could be a bit more prone to provocation than you!

GDL said:

A few quick observations:

- #1 applies to all 3. It's really a statement of His entire Salvation Plan from eternity. This is actually part of what I think Eph2:8 is pointing to.

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Yes, I would agree with that to a certain degree. Paul said that he labored more than his fellow apostles, but it was not by his ability alone, but it was the grace of God within him (1 Corinthians 15:10).

You said:

- #2 cleansing, like sanctification, also takes place at #1, as well as throughout #2.
- I'd probably put the "work" info in there. But I could be a bit more prone to provocation than you!

Click to expand...

I believe a cleansing happens in Justification. We receive a new heart with new desires but not at the elimination of our free will.

Bible Highlighter said:

1. God's Promises of Salvation & the Lamb's Book of Life.
2. Salvation in the Old Covenant between Adam and Moses.
3. Salvation in the Old Covenant involving the Law of Moses.
4. Salvation in the Old Covenant involving the arrival of Jesus,
5. New Covenant Salvation involving the commands in the New Covenant Scriptures (Post Cross).

Click to expand...

What about the salvation of all the Pre-Flood Saints?
Salvation did NOT begin after the Flood.

Jim

Ivan Hlavanda said:

39 One of the criminals who were hanged railed at him, saying, “Are you not the Christ? Save yourself and us!” 40 But the other rebuked him, saying, “Do you not fear God, since you are under the same sentence of condemnation? 41 And we indeed justly, for we are receiving the due reward of our deeds; but this man has done nothing wrong.” 42 And he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.” 43 And he said to him, “Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in paradise.” (Luke 23:39-43)

If salvation was by deeds, or including deeds, then what good deeds did this criminal do, and why is he in Heaven? Salvation is through Christ and Christ alone!!!

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Hi , Ivan , and here is how I see Luke 23:42 !

#1 In verse 40 , he admits there is a God !!

#2 He knows that they have received there just condemnation !

#3 In verse 42 he calls Jesus , LORD , and he admits that Jesus is his LORD , and MASTER !!

#4 And he also believes that he believes that the KINGDOM will come !!

#5 Then Jesus says UNTO THEE / SOI is in the Greek DATIVE CASE and is in the INDIRECT OBJECT is a time of designation !

#6 And shall be with ME / EMOU and is kin the Greek GENITIVE CASE that he is in the POSSESSION of Jesus !!

#7 And he will be in PARADISE / PARADEISOS which is in the THIRD HEAVEN which Paul was taken to !!

#8 It is obviously , that no BAPTISM could be performed as Col 2:14 , says for today , that BAPTISM is no longer required !!

dan p

If salvation was by deeds, no-one would be saved, haha. There is not a just man upon earth, that doeth good, and sinneth not.

Bible Highlighter said:

We receive a new heart with new desires but not at the elimination of our free will.

Click to expand...

Of course you neglect to include the (Biblical) fact that BEFORE
we "receive a new heart with new desires" our (so called) "free will"
is only and always to sin. That is an important fact to omit since
MOST people assume "free will" means we can chose good or evil.


Jim

Ivan Hlavanda said:

39 One of the criminals who were hanged railed at him, saying, “Are you not the Christ? Save yourself and us!” 40 But the other rebuked him, saying, “Do you not fear God, since you are under the same sentence of condemnation? 41 And we indeed justly, for we are receiving the due reward of our deeds; but this man has done nothing wrong.” 42 And he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.” 43 And he said to him, “Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in paradise.” (Luke 23:39-43)

If salvation was by deeds, or including deeds, then what good deeds did this criminal do, and why is he in Heaven? Salvation is through Christ and Christ alone!!!

Click to expand...

1) the thief is NOT an example of NT salvation having lived before the NT came into effect, (Hebrews 9:16-17). Hence the thief was not accountable to Romans 10:9 that required belief that God "hath raised" (past tense) Christ from the dead. Nor accountable to Romans 6:3-6 that requires a baptism into the death of Christ before one can walk in newness of life. For at the time Christ promised the thief he would be in paradise Christ had not yet died much less been resurrected.

2) we are not given information about the thief's past. It may have been the case the thief was of those in Mark 1:5 baptized of John therefore a disciple of John. Or he may have been of those taught and baptized by one of the Apostles (Matthew 10:5-7) and therefore was a disciple of Christ but later fell into a life of crime and finding himself an erring child of God and repenting of his sins while next to Christ. Having said this there is no verse that definitively states the thief was baptized just as there is no verse that definitively states he never baptized. So it cannot be definitively stated the thief did nothing at all to be saved.

3) we know from Matthew 9:6 that when Christ was "on earth" during HIs personal ministry He had been given the authority to directly forgive sins of those whom He thought was deserving as the thief. For one today to claim he/she is saved just as the thief would require one to be able to travel back in time some 2000 years to when Christ was on earth. Such of course is not possible. When Christ left earth some 2000 years ago (Acts 1:9) He left behind His NT as His authority on earth which requires us today who are under that NT to believe (John 8:24) repent, Luke 13:3) confess (Matt 10:32-33) and be baptized(Mark 16:16).

The NT of Christ does required the work of obedience in doing Gods will to be saved (Matthew 7:21,24; Luke 6:46; John 9:31; 1 John 2:17). Paul spoke of "obedience unto righteousness" (Rom 6:16) and in Romans 6:17-18 the order of events put obedience BEFORE justification:
1) were servants of sin
2) obeyed from the heart
3) then freed from sin (justified) became servants of righteousness.

Butterball1 said:

and in Romans 6:17-18 the order of events put obedience BEFORE justification:
1) were servants of sin
2) obeyed from the heart
3) then freed from sin (justified) became servants of righteousness.

Click to expand...

Thanks!

Similar to our being commanded in 1John2:23 to believe on the name of Jesus Christ. Belief & obedience are simultaneous.

Butterball1 said:

1) the thief is NOT an example of NT salvation having lived before the NT came into effect, (Hebrews 9:16-17). Hence the thief was not accountable to Romans 10:9 that required belief that God "hath raised" (past tense) Christ from the dead. Nor accountable to Romans 6:3-6 that requires a baptism into the death of Christ before one can walk in newness of life. For at the time Christ promised the thief he would be in paradise Christ had not yet died much less been resurrected.

2) we are not given information about the thief's past. It may have been the case the thief was of those in Mark 1:5 baptized of John therefore a disciple of John. Or he may have been of those taught and baptized by one of the Apostles (Matthew 10:5-7) and therefore was a disciple of Christ but later fell into a life of crime and finding himself an erring child of God and repenting of his sins while next to Christ. Having said this there is no verse that definitively states the thief was baptized just as there is no verse that definitively states he never baptized. So it cannot be definitively stated the thief did nothing at all to be saved.

3) we know from Matthew 9:6 that when Christ was "on earth" during HIs personal ministry He had been given the authority to directly forgive sins of those whom He thought was deserving as the thief. For one today to claim he/she is saved just as the thief would require one to be able to travel back in time some 2000 years to when Christ was on earth. Such of course is not possible. When Christ left earth some 2000 years ago (Acts 1:9) He left behind His NT as His authority on earth which requires us today who are under that NT to believe (John 8:24) repent, Luke 13:3) confess (Matt 10:32-33) and be baptized(Mark 16:16).

The NT of Christ does required the work of obedience in doing Gods will to be saved (Matthew 7:21,24; Luke 6:46; John 9:31; 1 John 2:17). Paul spoke of "obedience unto righteousness" (Rom 6:16) and in Romans 6:17-18 the order of events put obedience BEFORE justification:
1) were servants of sin
2) obeyed from the heart
3) then freed from sin (justified) became servants of righteousness.

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Do you think Jesus was NOT the savior of the saints in the
Pre-Flood "Kingdom of Heaven" and the saints in the Jewish
"Kingdom of Heaven" [Mat 22:2] as well as the saints in the
Christian "Kingdom of Heaven" [Mat 13] and the saints in the
Great Tribulation "Kingdom of Heaven" [Mat 25:1-13]?


Was Jesus not the Savior of ALL the saved [Mat 8:11]?
Since there is ONE "shepherd" and ONE "fold" and ONE "body".


Jim

GDL said:

Thanks!

Similar to our being commanded in 1John2:23 to believe on the name of Jesus Christ. Belief & obedience are simultaneous.

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Can any man "believe" or "obey" BEFORE they are regenerated?

Is belief (faith) and obedience the RESULT of regeneration,
or the CAUSE?

Jim

5thKingdom said:

Do you think Jesus was NOT the savior of the saints in the
Pre-Flood "Kingdom of Heaven" and the saints in the Jewish
"Kingdom of Heaven" [Mat 22:2] as well as the saints in the
Christian "Kingdom of Heaven" [Mat 13] and the saints in the
Great Tribulation "Kingdom of Heaven" [Mat 25:1-13]?


Was Jesus not the Savior of ALL the saved [Mat 8:11]?
Since there is ONE "shepherd" and ONE "fold" and ONE "body".


Jim

Click to expand...

Men were saved differently under the OT law compared to the NT law. Noah, Abraham, David etc were never commanded to be water baptized in the name of Christ for remission of sins as we today are commanded. And we today under the NT law are not commanded to offer animal sacrifices for our sins as those under the OT law were commanded.

Butterball1 said:

Men were saved differently under the OT law compared to the NT law. Noah, Abraham, David etc were never commanded to be water baptized in the name of Christ for remission of sins as we today are commanded. And we today under the NT law are not commanded to offer animal sacrifices for our sins as those under the OT law were commanded.

Click to expand...

So you think that Jesus was NOT THE SAVIOR of all men?
And you think Jesus was NOT THE ONLY WAY to God?
Even when the Bible says there is only ONE shepherd
and only ONE fold?


And you think WATER BAPTISM saves, instead of being a "shadow"
of the BAPTISM of the Holy Spirit? Even when the Bible says
(and John the Baptist said) there is only ONE Baptism (by fire)?


And you think animal sacrifices SAVED MEN instead of just being
just a "shadow" of the only real sacrifice... the "Lamb of God"?
And you also think spreading blood on their doors saved men
instead of being a "shadow" of what Christ's blood would do?


BTW... you did not address how Pre-Flood saints (like Enoch)
were saved... they did not follow the Mosaic Laws. Was there
some DIFFERENT salvation plan for those saints also?
WHERE does the Bible teach such a thing?


I am afraid you must be either a "babe in Christ" needing MUCH
correction, or an unsaved "tare" who knows nothing about the
Gospel of the Bible, since they were NEVER MEANT to be saved.
They could not "perceive" or "understand" the Gospel and they
could never "be converted" or have "their sins forgiven".
[Mark 4:12]


I hope it is the former because these issues we discussed are
Christian theology 101... which shows JESUS was the Savior
of OT saints and the fulfillment of all the "shadows" we are
addressing (and many more).


Jim

5thKingdom said:

So you think that Jesus was NOT THE SAVIOR of all men?
And you think Jesus was NOT THE ONLY WAY to God?
Even when the Bible says there is only ONE shepherd
and only ONE fold?

Click to expand...

I NEVER said Jesus was not the Saviour of all men.

What I did say was that people under different dispensations were not saved the same way.....as I pointed out in my last post.

5thKingdom said:

And you think WATER BAPTISM saves, instead of being a "shadow"
of the BAPTISM of the Holy Spirit? Even when the Bible says
(and John the Baptist said) there is only ONE Baptism (by fire)?

Click to expand...

The verses are many that show water baptism saves, Mark 16:16; Acts 2:38; Colossians 2:11-12; 1 Peter 3:21 for a few.

By the time Paul penned his Ephesian epistle there was just "one baptism" in effect (Ephesians 4:4-5) which would be Christ's water baptism of the great commission (Matthew 28:19-20; Mark 16;15-16). THis baptism saves, it is how disciples are made, it was to be administerd by disciples (men), it is commanded to all men/nations, it was to be taught to others and would last till the end of time.

NONE of these things are true about baptism with the Holy Spirit....it does not save, it was not commanded to anyone, it would not last till the end ot time, etc.

5thKingdom said:

And you think animal sacrifices SAVED MEN instead of just being
just a "shadow" of the only real sacrifice... the "Lamb of God"?
And you also think spreading blood on their doors saved men
instead of being a "shadow" of what Christ's blood would do?

Click to expand...

God saves but whom does He save and why? God saves those that obey Him. So those under the OT law that obeyed God by offering those sacrifices as commanded by God would be the one just before God. John's parents were seen as righteous before God because they walked "in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless." Luke 1:6. So when Christ did die and shed His blood, His blood flowed backward from the cross to wash away the sins of those under the OT law who were obedient to God.....Hebrews 9:15 "And for this cause he (Christ) is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance."

So whose transgressions were redeemed under the first testament (OT)? Those that rebelled and would not obey God? No. Those that would obey God as Noah, Moses, Abraham, David, John's parents? Yes!!! Was there obedience sinlessly perfect? No. But then again God did not require sinless perfection to be just, righteous but a simple obedient faith. Likewise today for us under the NT GOd does not require us to be sinlessly perfect but a simple obedient faith in believing repenting of sins, confession and submit to water baptism and continue to walk in the light (1 Jn 1:7) being "faithful unto death" (Revelation 2:10)

5thKingdom said:

BTW... you did not address how Pre-Flood saints (like Enoch)
were saved... they did not follow the Mosaic Laws. Was there
some DIFFERENT salvation plan for those saints also?
WHERE does the Bible teach such a thing?

Click to expand...

Those who lived prior to the law of Moses, as Noah, lived under what many call the Patriachal laws where God dealt with the heads of families as Abraham. They were given laws to obey as in offering sacrifices as Abraham and Job did, (Genesis 13:18; Job 1:5) for their own sins and the sins of their family. Again, those that obeyed God under this Patriachal law would have Christ's blood take away their sins when Christ finally did die.

5thKingdom said:

I am afraid you must be either a "babe in Christ" needing MUCH
correction, or an unsaved "tare" who knows nothing about the
Gospel of the Bible, since they were NEVER MEANT to be saved.
They could not "perceive" or "understand" the Gospel and they
could never "be converted" or have "their sins forgiven".
[Mark 4:12]


I hope it is the former because these issues we discussed are
Christian theology 101... which shows JESUS was the Savior
of OT saints and the fulfillment of all the "shadows" we are
addressing (and many more).


Jim

Click to expand...

Again, you are making assumptions about things I never said. Again, where did I say Christ was NOT the Saviour of those under the OT?? Above I showed that I believe Christ's blood flowed back "for the redemption of transgression that were under the first testament".

What I have said is those under the first law were saved by different requirements those under the NT law which is a fact you seem to misunderstand. All under the OT that were saved were saved by Christ but had different laws to obey (animal sacrifices) than what we today are required under the NT law (water baptism) to be saved by Christ.

Butterball1 said:

I NEVER said Jesus was not the Saviour of all men. What I did say was that people under different dispensations were not saved the same way.....as I pointed out in my last post.

Click to expand...

First, you contradict yourself by saying Jesus was the ONLY WAY
to God and then, in the same breath, saying people were saved
in OTHER WAYS. That is not what the Bible Teaches. Jesus alone
is the "Lamb of God" and animal sacrifices did not save anyone,
they only POINTED to what Jesus would do. This is a very BASIC
and essential element of the Gospel... theology 101.


Secondly, please READ my post in the other thread again...
Notice I gave SCRIPTURES to support TEN (10) specific points
and highlighted in BLUE the point that you needed to harmonize
those Scripture INTO your "theories" before you could PRETEND
to understand the Gospel of the Bible. However you NEGLECTED
to do that... so I cannot take your response seriously UNTIL you
harmonize the SCRIPTURES I gave you with your "theory".


To simply state your "theory" again... without addressing ALL of
the contradicting passages... is to only PRETEND that you know
the Gospel of the Bible, since there are NO CONTRADICTIONS in
the Gospel - but MANY contradictions in your theory.

NONE of these things are true about baptism with the Holy Spirit....it does not save, it was not commanded to anyone, it would not last till the end ot time, etc.

Click to expand...

You err because you do not understand the Gospel.
First, there is ONE BAPTISM (that is effective) and water baptism
is just a "sign" or "shadow" showing what God has already done
in your heart of the regenerated, with the baptism of the Holy Spirit.


Note: Water baptism does not SAVE anyone, any more than
circumcision SAVED... both were an outward "sign" or "shadow"
showing what God had done within. This is very BASIC and
essential understandings of the Gospel.


Eph_4:5
One Lord, one faith, one baptism,


Mat_3:11
I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance:
but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes
I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with
the Holy Ghost, and with fire:

God saves but whom does He save and why? God saves those that obey Him.

Click to expand...

Well, there you have it. You preach a false "works gospel"
where MEN initiate their salvation by doing some "good work"
such as saying the sinner's prayer or making an altar call or receiving
water baptism or repenting of SOME sin or "inviting" Jesus into their
hearts or DECIDING (a mental work) to "believe" or have "faith"...
then God SEES that good work man has done and God is then
OBLIGATED to finish the salvation process MAN has begun.
That is known as the heresy of "synergism" and it is the
BROAD WAY that leads many "Christians" into destruction.


The True Gospel is that God "chooses" or "elects" whom He will
save before the foundation of the world based ONLY on His Good
Pleasure and NOT on any "work" that person would do during their
lifetime. This Gospel of God's Sovereign Grace is a "monergistic"
Gospel and the narrow way that leads men into eternal life...
and FEW "Christians" find it.

So whose transgressions were redeemed under the first testament (OT)? Those that rebelled and would not obey God? No. Those that would obey God as Noah, Moses, Abraham, David, John's parents? Yes!!!

Click to expand...

There you go again, you REJECT and INTENTIONALLY IGNORE
the Scripture (in both the OT and NT) that PROMISE that NO MAN
will ever "seek God" unless/until he is regenerated.


When you reject or intentionally IGNORE the SCRIPTURES that
contradict your "theory" then you are only demonstrating that
you do not understand the Gospel at all... and you have decided
to design your OWN "gospel" based on the verses you LIKE and
IGNORING the verses you don't like (because they contradict you)


This is a common practice of those not understanding the Gospel
and this practice prevents real saints from ever taking you seriously.


Again, read my post in the other thread again...
there are SCRIPTURES contradicting your "theory" and
commends written in BLUE that must be addressed BEFORE
you can be taken seriously.


Listen, if you want to be taken seriously then you will FIRST need
to ADDRESS the SCRIPTURES I provided and respond to EACH of
the ten (10) comments I made in BLUE. When you simply reject
or intentionally ignore the SCRIPTURES I provide then you only
show you do not understand the Gospel....


Like the Scripture that teach some men were NEVER MEANT
to "perceive" or "understand" the Gospel, or "be converted"
or "have their sins forgiven" [Mark 4:10-11]


Like the Scripture that teach some men were CREATED to be
"vessels of mercy" (saved) while other men were CREATED to be
"vessels of wrath" (unsaved)


Let me know when/if you want to be taken seriously by
ADDRESSING my post instead of just ignoring the SCRIPTURES
I presented to repeat your "theories".... which were declared to be
heresy by the early church and the Reformers. You have presented
NOTHING NEW, just the same "works gospel" and misconceptions
preached by the unsaved "tares" in the church for almost 2000 yrs.


Jim

5thKingdom said:

First, you contradict yourself by saying Jesus was the ONLY WAY
to God and then, in the same breath, saying people were saved
in OTHER WAYS. That is not what the Bible Teaches. Jesus alone
is the "Lamb of God" and animal sacrifices did not save anyone,
they only POINTED to what Jesus would do. This is a very BASIC
and essential element of the Gospel... theology 101.

Click to expand...

Why the personal attacks and fabrication?????

Point me to my post where I said those under the OT law were not saved by Christ, Christ's shed blood.

I did say those under the OT had different laws to obey (required animal sacrifices) than the laws under the NT (requires water baptism). All those that obey God, whether under OT or NT covenant are the ones whose sins Christ's blood washes away.

5thKingdom said:

Secondly, please READ my post in the other thread again...
Notice I gave SCRIPTURES to support TEN (10) specific points
and highlighted in BLUE the point that you needed to harmonize
those Scripture INTO your "theories" before you could PRETEND
to understand the Gospel of the Bible. However you NEGLECTED
to do that... so I cannot take your response seriously UNTIL you
harmonize the SCRIPTURES I gave you with your "theory".

Click to expand...

You spend a few minutes typing them up but I will not spend my whole day answering all those points. I spent over over hour refuted the ones that I did, that was sufficient enough.
I advise to keep your posts short and no more mile long posts.

5thKingddom said:

To simply state your "theory" again... without addressing ALL of
the contradicting passages... is to only PRETEND that you know
the Gospel of the Bible, since there are NO CONTRADICTIONS in
the Gospel - but MANY contradictions in your theory.





You err because you do not understand the Gospel.
First, there is ONE BAPTISM (that is effective) and water baptism
is just a "sign" or "shadow" showing what God has already done
in your heart of the regenerated, with the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

Click to expand...

Eph 4:4-5 the one baptism refers to Christ baptism of the great commission. Here you just CLAIM that one baptism is baptism with the HS but give no proof.

Again, in my last post to you I spent well over an hour responding to various points you posted giving book, chapter and verses to back my points. Here you spend less than 30 seconds making an unfounded, unproven claim.

You also define water baptism in a way the Bible does not, you do not even attempt to prove that defintion yet you call others unlearned in the Bible.

Again, above you post NOTHING proving your CLAIM the one baptism is baptism with the Holy Ghost yet think I should spend hours of my time responding to your posts.

5thKingdom said:

Note: Water baptism does not SAVE anyone, any more than
circumcision SAVED... both were an outward "sign" or "shadow"
showing what God had done within. This is very BASIC and
essential understandings of the Gospel.

Click to expand...

Again, another 30 seconds you spend typing this giving no Bible based proof to back it up yet think I will spend hours refuting your posts??????

5thKingdom said:

Eph_4:5
One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

Click to expand...

Showed this one baptism was the water baptism of Christ's great commission:
By the time Paul penned his Ephesian epistle there was just "one baptism" in effect (Ephesians 4:4-5) which would be Christ's water baptism of the great commission (Matthew 28:19-20; Mark 16;15-16). THis baptism saves, it is how disciples are made, it was to be administerd by disciples (men), it is commanded to all men/nations, it was to be taught to others and would last till the end of time.

NONE of these things are true about baptism with the Holy Spirit....it does not save, it was not commanded to anyone, it would not last till the end ot time, etc.

Furthermore:
F.F. Bruce says: “baptism in the New Testament is always baptism in water unless the context shows it to be something else; that is to say, the word is always to be understood literally unless the context indicates a figurative meaning” (Questions Answered, p. 106). There is NOTHING in Eph 4:4-5 that shows baptizo is being used any figurative way...it refers to a later immersion in water.

5thKingdom said:

Mat_3:11
I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance:
but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes
I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with
the Holy Ghost, and with fire



Well, there you have it. You preach a false "works gospel"
where MEN initiate their salvation by doing some "good work"
such as saying the sinner's prayer or making an altar call or receiving
water baptism or repenting of SOME sin or "inviting" Jesus into their
hearts or DECIDING (a mental work) to "believe" or have "faith"...
then God SEES that good work man has done and God is then
OBLIGATED to finish the salvation process MAN has begun.
That is known as the heresy of "synergism" and it is the
BROAD WAY that leads many "Christians" into destruction.

Click to expand...

You take a few seconds and type (or copy and paste) Matt 3:11 and just claim "there you have it" as if doing nothing but typing that verse proves you point. Yet I am supposed to spend hours refuting your points..which I have refuted them all.

THis verse in Matt 3:11 does not even prove your point, classic case of taking a verse out of context and assuming into it whatever you want to assume in it.

I will spend some time here, unlike you have on my posts, in refuting your post and showing your error.
To understand a verse one must know who is speaking, who is being spoken to and what is being said. In the context John is speaking, he is speaking to Pharisees (Matthew 3:7) that came to where he was baptizing. John says to those Pharisees (JOHN WAS NOT SPEAKING TO YOU) "I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:"

The issue is why would John say to those Pharisees "I baptized you with water" when in fact John had NOT baptized them with water, the Pharisees rejected John's baptism Luke 7:30?


The fact John was not speaking to you or anyone else alive today means neither pronoun "you" in Mt 3:11 apply to no one today. That first "you" did not even apply to those Pharisees John was speaking to. Nor were those Pharisees the seond "you" for they were never baptized with the Holy Ghost.

It becomes apparent that John is using both pronouns "you" in a generic sense. John was simply announcing the TYPE of baptism he baptized with and the TYPE of baptisms Christ would baptize with.
He was not promising anyone (those Pharisees or us today) baptism with the Holy Ghost. In vain you try to make the second pronoun "you" refer to yourself when NEITHER pronoun refers to anyone today.

From the immediate context of Matt 3:11 it cannot be told who the "you" would be that would be baptized with the Holy Spirit. But we can look at the fulfillment of these words of John in Acts 1:1-5. In this context Jesus is with His Apostles and refers to what John said in Matt 3:11 in Acts 1:5.
Now we know the first "you" of Mt 3:11 will be the Apostles whom Jesus promised baptism with the Holy Ghost. It was just the Apostles and NO ON ALIVE TODAY ever received the promise of baptism with the Holy Ghost.

John nor Jesus was speaking to YOU therefore YOU have never been promised baptism with the Holy Spirit.

Here is MORE TIME I will spend on this:
Joel 2:29 prophesied about the Lord pouring out His spirit upon ALL FLESH. Peter quoted that prophecy in Acts 2:17. I see the Holy Spirit came upon the APostles in Acts 2 and Peter connects the Spirit falling upon the Apostles to Joel's prophecy Acts 2:16.

--at that time they saw mankind in two groups; Jew and Gentile, hence "all flesh" does not mean every single person will be baptized with the Holy Ghost. Nor would "all flesh" be inclusive of animals even though animals have flesh. All flesh refers to both groups Jews and Gentiles would be baptized with the Holy Spirit. THere are only two instances in all the NT of baptism with the Holy SPirit; 1) in Acts 2 the APostles who were Jews. 2) in Acts 10 Cornelius who was a Gentile. Therefore Jew and Gentile have ALREADY BEEN baptized with the Holy Spirit fufilling and bringing to an end that prophecy of Joel back in the first century.

Now I spent even much more time of my time going into detail, giving book chapters and verses to prove my point. Something you have NOT done with my replies to you yet you expect me to spend my whole day responding to your very long posts.

5thKingdom said:

The True Gospel is that God "chooses" or "elects" whom He will
save before the foundation of the world based ONLY on His Good
Pleasure and NOT on any "work" that person would do during their
lifetime. This Gospel of God's Sovereign Grace is a "monergistic"
Gospel and the narrow way that leads men into eternal life...
and FEW "Christians" find it.

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More unfounded assumptions, not one book, chapter or verse given, no refutation to anything I posted.

5thKingdom said:

There you go again, you REJECT and INTENTIONALLY IGNORE
the Scripture (in both the OT and NT) that PROMISE that NO MAN
will ever "seek God" unless/until he is regenerated.


When you reject or intentionally IGNORE the SCRIPTURES that
contradict your "theory" then you are only demonstrating that
you do not understand the Gospel at all... and you have decided
to design your OWN "gospel" based on the verses you LIKE and
IGNORING the verses you don't like (because they contradict you)


This is a common practice of those not understanding the Gospel
and this practice prevents real saints from ever taking you seriously.


Again, read my post in the other thread again...
there are SCRIPTURES contradicting your "theory" and
commends written in BLUE that must be addressed BEFORE
you can be taken seriously.


Listen, if you want to be taken seriously then you will FIRST need
to ADDRESS the SCRIPTURES I provided and respond to EACH of
the ten (10) comments I made in BLUE. When you simply reject
or intentionally ignore the SCRIPTURES I provide then you only
show you do not understand the Gospel....


Like the Scripture that teach some men were NEVER MEANT
to "perceive" or "understand" the Gospel, or "be converted"
or "have their sins forgiven" [Mark 4:10-11]


Like the Scripture that teach some men were CREATED to be
"vessels of mercy" (saved) while other men were CREATED to be
"vessels of wrath" (unsaved)


Let me know when/if you want to be taken seriously by
ADDRESSING my post instead of just ignoring the SCRIPTURES
I presented to repeat your "theories".... which were declared to be
heresy by the early church and the Reformers. You have presented
NOTHING NEW, just the same "works gospel" and misconceptions
preached by the unsaved "tares" in the church for almost 2000 yrs.


Jim

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I already refuted what you posted from Romans 9. You made no attmept to even deal with anything I posted. Just repeat posting the same things does not refute what I posted.

Butterball1 said:

You made no attmept to even deal with anything I posted. Just repeat posting the same things does not refute what I posted.

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Your false "gospel" has already been refuted. Pretending it has not
is only you pretending. I already told you, you cannot be taken
seriously when you intentionally ignore all the verses that contradict
your heresy of a synergistic gospel. You will find out soon enough
that your pretending changes nothing. Jesus was very clear that
some men were NEVER MEANT to "understand" or "be converted"
or to "have their sins forgiven" [Mark 4:12] and God was very clear some men (most men) were CREATED to be "vessels of wrath".
[Rom 9:19-25]. Bible Truths don't need you to agree or accept, and
they immediately DESTROY your false "gospel". And your intentional ignoring of these (and many other) Biblical Truths can never negate
them. It only shows your "fruit", which again demonstrates that
you simply cannot ever be taken seriously.


But, just for fun... and to show you have NO IDEA of either the
True Gospel or WHERE you are in history... tell me, WHAT is the
LAST SIGN on earth before the resurrection and the Lord's Return, which occurs during the "time of the end" [Dan 12:8-10] and the "Season and Time" [Dan 7:11-12], and as the Seventh Trumpet "begins to sound" [Rev 10:7-11], during the period between the
end of the Second Woe and start of the Third Woe [Rev 11:14]
and between the events of Rev 20:10 occur and the events of
and Rev 19:20 occur... and is the "sign" fulfilled by the Last Saints
on earth called the "wise virgins" [Mat 25:1-13], who are PART
of those called the ten "virgins" and ten "kings" and ten "horns".
[Mat 25, Dan 7 and 8, Rev 17:12-13 and 17:17] And make no
mistake, the Bible PROMISES the Last Saints "shall understand"
these things and will PREACH them as the Seventh Trumpet
"begins to sound", immediately before the Lord Returns.


Of course this is all WAY ABOVE your head (as was the Truth
about the True Gospel of monergism) but since you pretend to be
a real saint (one of the "wheat" instead of the "tares") let's just
have some fun TESTING your knowledge of the Gospel, to see
if you understand what the Bible PROMISES all the Last Saints
will both understand and preach.


Jim


BTW... do not feel too bad that you CANNOT provide a Biblical
response to the "last sign", just as you COULD NOT provide
a Biblical response to the True Gospel of monergism... these
inabilities to "perceive" or "understand" are simply the "fruit"
of those who are NOT part of the "wheat" living during the
"time of the end" or "Season and Time" and are FORETOLD
in the Gospel of the Bible... whether you understand that or not.

.

Ivan Hlavanda said:

39 One of the criminals who were hanged railed at him, saying, “Are you not the Christ? Save yourself and us!” 40 But the other rebuked him, saying, “Do you not fear God, since you are under the same sentence of condemnation? 41 And we indeed justly, for we are receiving the due reward of our deeds; but this man has done nothing wrong.” 42 And he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.” 43 And he said to him, “Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in paradise.” (Luke 23:39-43)

If salvation was by deeds, or including deeds, then what good deeds did this criminal do, and why is he in Heaven? Salvation is through Christ and Christ alone!!!

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From those given more, more will be demanded (Luke 12:48). We “invest” whatever talents were given, with an increase expected (Matt 25:14-30). So, if the thief would’ve been allowed down from his cross, with more opportunity other than the time to profess his belief in and love for Jesus, would God have expected more from him?

We all are given different lots in life, with varying degrees of time, intelligence, opportunities, experience, backgrounds good or bad, maturity, grace, and revelation/knowledge. All gifts come from God; all is a matter of grace; what will we do with what we’ve been given? The other thief had the same opportunity as the “good” thief BTW.

5th kingdom

one that we are destined to eternal hell (unless God elects to save us)

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You say some pretty sound things, however, do you believe the vessels of mercy, the elect of God chosen in Christ before the foundation Eph 1:4 were at one time destined to eternal hell ? To me that sounds like the plight of the vessels of wrath,, destined to hell.