The Bible - Man's Instruction Manual

Aussie Pete

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I'm not sure this is correct. When John wrote Revelation, it was a single book. There weren't others and I'm not sure he knew that his book would be included with other books and letters to create what we call the Bible. Same with Moses.

Even if, the Bible is to be considered one book, I'm not sure that with modern versions they have taken away or added as compared to the originals. For all we know, it is the KJV that has done so.

Either way, I just cannot read the KJV as I have outlined in another post.
You are correct. The New Testament was written over a 60 year period and in a different order to what we have in today's Bible. And the obsession with the KJV is a mystery to me. Even some words used have changed meaning over the years. "Conversation" to us means talk. In 1611, it meant way of life.
 
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Keeping the sabbath day on the seventh day of the week is part of the Ten commandments, the law. It's not judging anyone, because God ordain those laws, not another person. Paul says in (Rom. 7:7,12) (v.7) What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, THOU SHALT NOT COVET. Paul asked a question, is the law sin? He said God forbid, he said the only way that he knew what sin was, was by the law. (v.12) Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good. Why in the world would a Christian want to do away with something that God said is holy.

There is no Sabbath command mentioned in Romans 7. You also quote the Scriptures out of context. Romans 7:6 says that we are to serve in newnesss of spirit and not in the oldness of the letter. Romans 7:4 says we are dead to the Law. Also, which commandments of the Old Law was Paul referring to in regards to them being holy, and just, and good in Romans 7:12? It is the righteous aspect of the Law. Romans 8:4 says, “That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.” This is why we are told to serve in newness of spirit and not in the oldness of the letter in Romans 7:6. What is the righteous aspect of the Old Law? Romans 13:8-10 says that by loving our neighbor we fulfill the Law (i.e. the Old Law). For if we love our neighbor, we will not steal, will not covet, we will not murder. Notice, Romans 13:8-10 does not mention anything about the Sabbath as a part of loving your neighbor. For the New Covenant way of fulfilling the Old Law is by loving your neighbor.

So again, what is the righteousness of the Law (i.e. the Old Law)?

“Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law. For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.” (Romans 13:8-10).

The equivalent of fulfilling the Moral Law (or the righteous aspect of the Old Law) is by loving your neighbor.

We are able to fulfill the Old Law by loving our neighbor. This is not to say the Old Law is still in effect. The Old Law ended after Jesus died upon the cross.

We are under a New Covenant with New commands! We are to follow Jesus and His followers. For the Law came by Moses but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ (See: John 1:17).

You said:
Paul says in Galatian 4: 7 Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ. 8 Howbeit then, when ye knew not God, ye did service unto them which by nature are no gods.

Right like Christmas, Easter paganism, didn't Paul say 1 Corinthians 10:20 But I say, that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to devils, and not to God: and I would not that ye should have fellowship with devils.

9 But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage? 10 Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years. 11 I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labour in vain.

So Paul saying you can observe things that not written in the Bible to do, days, and months, and times, and years. Christmas 25th December, halloween, Easter pagan, Sunday, etc. but have a problem with the things that is written in the Bible to do. You have really read the book.

You are adding to the Word of God. You are inserting a point about Gentile pagan sacrifices in another letter (Which was to the Corinthians). You have to read the book of Galatians in context to the book of Galatians and not mix and match. Nowhere does Paul refer to pagan holidays in the context of Galatians 4:10. Pagan holidays is not mentioned in the book of Galatians. Galatians 5:2 says if you seek to be circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing. In Galatians 2:3, Paul talks about how Titus was not compelled to be circumcised seeing that he was a Gentile (or Greek). So circumcision (Which was from the Old Law) is the topic of conversation. So the Law of Moses is the point of reference to what Paul is talking about in Galatians 4:10. For Paul says if you seek to be justified by the law, you have fallen from grace (Galatians 5:4). This is the 613 laws of Moses. Paul is afraid they are keeping days, months, times, and years out of the Old Law (When the OT Law is no longer in effect as a whole or package deal). Yes, certain laws like the Moral Law (i.e. Do not steal, do not murder, do not covet, etc.) have carried over into the New Testament (or New Covenant), but the ceremonial laws have not (like the Saturday Sabbath, circumcision, dietary laws, etc.).

You said:
Again, In the Leviticus, 23rd Chapter the sabbath day and the High Holy Days which begin I believe on the new moon. Are the feast of the Lord's. These days are to be observe in their season. In Colossians 2:16-17, "Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days. Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ. These feast day are the plans of God, they represent the future, with example from the past. All Holy Days are not to eat or drink, such as the atonement, but still to observe. So this is actually what a person would say to someone who does not keep these feast day of the Lord. If they were judging them on those High and Holydays, they were keeping They would quoted Colossians 2: 16-17. These sabbath days are what you suppose to be learning and be concern with. The things you can read from the Bible itself to do.

You are reading Colossians 2:16 all wrong. You think you still have to observe Sabbaths, and holy days. It is saying the exact opposite. Colossians 2:14 says Christ nailed to the cross those ordinances that were against us. Continuing the conversation in context still, it is saying we are not to let others (i.e. the Jews) to judge us if we do not keep the Sabbaths, holy days, and the dietary laws, etc.;

For Paul says elsewhere, “For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving: For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.” (1 Timothy 4:4-5).

And Paul does not stress the necessity of how we must keep the Saturday Sabbath in Romans 14. He says,

“One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind. He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it.” (Romans 14:5-6).

Paul says there are some who esteem every day alike. Paul does not condemn them and tell them to keep the Saturday Sabbath.

In other words, Colossians 2:16 is saying that we are not to let Jews judge us on keeping these days because Christians are not under the Law (i.e. the Law of Moses) (See: Romans 6:14). For Christians are not lawless citizens of God's kingdom. They are under God's laws but they are under the New Covenant Laws. For to even believe in Jesus is a commandment (i.e. Law) (See: 1 John 3:23). So the Law we are not under is the 613 laws of Moses as a whole or package deal. This means the Sabbath is no longer in effect. For there is no Sabbath commands given to us in the New Testament. There is no sin listed as breaking the Sabbath placed among the other sins listed by Paul and John.
 
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I can't agree with your

You got cut off here. Not sure if you are disagreeing with end of the Saturday Sabbath command (not the end of the Sabbath as a calendar day), or if you are disagreeing with another thing.

You said:
No, the Bible is not an instruction manual. If that's all it was, we would either all be condemned to hell or Jesus died in vain. If we are not able to follow the instructions, we are lost for eternity. If we can follow the instructions, then we would be in no need of a saviour. Seeing the Bible as an instruction manual is simplistic and leaves believers with an "OK, how do I obey all this, especially when it seems to contradict itself?"

The Bible is vital to Christian life. I teach it. However, to treat it as an instruction manual is to miss the major point of God's Word. It also leaves people none the wiser as to how to live the life that God demands of us.

The Bible mentions a thing called the: “work of faith”; It is mentioned two times in Scripture (See: 1 Thessalonians 1:3, and 2 Thessalonians 1:11). So naturally the “work of faith” would be a part of the “faith,” right?

Granted, we must first be saved by God's grace through faith in Jesus Christ and the gospel according to 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 (Which naturally leads to a changed born again heart), but without receiving our instructions from God (i.e. works of faith) it is a lack of faith. For if Noah just had a belief alone in GOD and He did not receive His instructions in building a boat and getting on it, He would have perished along with everyone else. For if you imply that God's Word is not an instruction manual, I would say that you don't know your Bible all too well.

For the Bible itself says this:

“All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness.” (2 Timothy 3:16).​

For what is the purpose of these things mentioned in 2 Timothy 3:16?

“That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.” (2 Timothy 3:17).​

Yet, this verse above (verse 17) is not believed by many churches.

“For the commandment is a lamp; and the law is light; and reproofs of instruction are the way of life:” (Proverbs 6:23).

Proverbs 6:23. Remember.... 6:23.

Romans 6:23 says, “For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.”

Unfortunately, most today think they can sin and still be saved because they have a belief alone on Jesus. But God's grace is not a license for immorality (Jude 1:4). We have to obey Jesus and not just believe in Him. For Acts of the Apostles 3:23 essentially says that every soul who does not hear that prophet (JESUS) will be destroyed from among the people. Matthew 7:26-27 says a similar thing. It basically says that everyone who does not do what Jesus says is like a fool who built His house upon the sand and when a storm came great was the fall of that house. This is tied in with Matthew 7:23 whereby Jesus told certain believers who did wonderful works in His name to depart from Him because they worked iniquity (or sin).

2 Timothy 2:25 says, “In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;”
How does Paul instruct those who oppose themselves? He does so with God's Word. So Paul instructs those who oppose themselves with God's Word. For Jesus, and His followers always quoted from Scripture in their guidance or instruction of believers.
 
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Bro.T

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There is no Sabbath command mentioned in Romans 7. You also quote the Scriptures out of context. Romans 7:6 says that we are to serve in newnesss of spirit and not in the oldness of the letter. Romans 7:4 says we are dead to the Law. Also, which commandments of the Old Law was Paul referring to in regards to them being holy, and just, and good in Romans 7:12? It is the righteous aspect of the Law. Romans 8:4 says, “That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.” This is why we are told to serve in newness of spirit and not in the oldness of the letter in Romans 7:6. What is the righteous aspect of the Old Law? Romans 13:8-10 says that by loving our neighbor we fulfill the Law (i.e. the Old Law). For if we love our neighbor, we will not steal, will not covet, we will not murder. Notice, Romans 13:8-10 does not mention anything about the Sabbath as a part of loving your neighbor. For the New Covenant way of fulfilling the Old Law is by loving your neighbor.

So again, what is the righteousness of the Law (i.e. the Old Law)?
I agree loving your neighbor, but it's not new, thats comes from the writing of Moses. A lot of the New Testament comes from the Old Testament. The Old law Paul is saying is the animal sacrificial law, not the royal law. Thats the law that is done away with and the priesthood laws, because is the High priest now. Let’s continue to what you quoted in Romans 7 Now, Paul said in (Rom. 7:7, 12) (v.7) What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, THOU SHALT NOT COVET. Paul asked a question, is the law sin? He said God forbid, he said the only way that he knew what sin was, was by the law. (v.12) Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good. Why in the world would a Christian want to do away with something that God said is holy? Paul said in (Rom. 4:15) Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression. If there is no law there is no sin.

So you're saying it is OK to steal and kill and to commit adultery and to bare false witness, etc...those things that you're saying that we have to separate from, and it's OK to do those things, because we don't have to keep the law. You say it causes division, because we under grace. But, Paul say in Romans 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? NO, we should not sin! Because people who read and understand the word of God knows that Paul say in Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.




“Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law. For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.” (Romans 13:8-10).

The equivalent of fulfilling the Moral Law (or the righteous aspect of the Old Law) is by loving your neighbor.

We are able to fulfill the Old Law by loving our neighbor. This is not to say the Old Law is still in effect. The Old Law ended after Jesus died upon the cross.

We are under a New Covenant with New commands! We are to follow Jesus and His followers. For the Law came by Moses but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ (See: John 1:17).

I agree, but not the removal of the Ten Commandments. Its written in
(1John 2:3-4) (v.3) And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. (v.4) he that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

You are adding to the Word of God. You are inserting a point about Gentile pagan sacrifices in another letter (Which was to the Corinthians). You have to read the book of Galatians in context to the book of Galatians and not mix and match. Nowhere does Paul refer to pagan holidays in the context of Galatians 4:10. Pagan holidays is not mentioned in the book of Galatians. Galatians 5:2 says if you seek to be circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing. In Galatians 2:3, Paul talks about how Titus was not compelled to be circumcised seeing that he was a Gentile (or Greek). So circumcision (Which was from the Old Law) is the topic of conversation. So the Law of Moses is the point of reference to what Paul is talking about in Galatians 4:10. For Paul says if you seek to be justified by the law, you have fallen from grace (Galatians 5:4). This is the 613 laws of Moses. Paul is afraid they are keeping days, months, times, and years out of the Old Law (When the OT Law is no longer in effect as a whole or package deal). Yes, certain laws like the Moral Law (i.e. Do not steal, do not murder, do not covet, etc.) have carried over into the New Testament (or New Covenant), but the ceremonial laws have not (like the Saturday Sabbath, circumcision, dietary laws, etc.).
You don't read all of Paul writing. You quoted Galatian 4 and didn't read up the verses. You jumping around all in Paul's writing and not taking anything he says concrete, unless its only your point. Everything in the Bible connects.
Grace is nothing more than a free gift. And that free gift is our access back to the tree of life (Jesus) which Adam caused us to lose by disobeying God. But to maintain your grace you must keep the law. (1John 3:4) Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. Now we have just read the biblical definition of sin, the transgression (breaking) of the law (commandments.) It doesn’t matter what you or I think sin is, it’s what God says sin is that counts. The law is the Ten Commandments, statutes, and Judgements that includes the sabbath day. There's no other day to attend church in the Bible, but the sabbath day on the seventh day of the week.
This is concrete. Paul talks about two different laws in the Bible, sometimes in the same verse.

God had Peter to clearly warn us about some of Paul’s writing. (2 Peter:3:15-16) (v.15) And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; (v.16) As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction. Now let us take heed to this warning, we can’t ignore all the bible and just concentrate on a hand full of verses out of the writings of Paul. Because some of Paul’s writing is hard to be understood.


You are reading Colossians 2:16 all wrong. You think you still have to observe Sabbaths, and holy days. It is saying the exact opposite. Colossians 2:14 says Christ nailed to the cross those ordinances that were against us. Continuing the conversation in context still, it is saying we are not to let others (i.e. the Jews) to judge us if we do not keep the Sabbaths, holy days, and the dietary laws, etc.;

For Paul says elsewhere, “For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving: For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.” (1 Timothy 4:4-5).

And Paul does not stress the necessity of how we must keep the Saturday Sabbath in Romans 14. He says,

“One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind. He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it.” (Romans 14:5-6).

Paul says there are some who esteem every day alike. Paul does not condemn them and tell them to keep the Saturday Sabbath.

In other words, Colossians 2:16 is saying that we are not to let Jews judge us on keeping these days because Christians are not under the Law (i.e. the Law of Moses) (See: Romans 6:14). For Christians are not lawless citizens of God's kingdom. They are under God's laws but they are under the New Covenant Laws. For to even believe in Jesus is a commandment (i.e. Law) (See: 1 John 3:23). So the Law we are not under is the 613 laws of Moses as a whole or package deal. This means the Sabbath is no longer in effect. For there is no Sabbath commands given to us in the New Testament. There is no sin listed as breaking the Sabbath placed among the other sins listed by Paul and John.

Thats sounds like you are purposely avoiding the other writing in the Bible. The Bible is one book, full of books and instruction for salvation.
Don’t allow yourself to be deceived into believing that once you believe in the Lord that your work is finished, it has just started. (Heb. 10:35-39) (v.35) Cast not away therefore your confidence, which hath great recompense of reward. (v.36) For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise. People you must have patience when dealing with the word of God. And you must do the will of God, which is the keeping of his law, if you expect to receive the promise, which is eternal life in the kingdom of God, which will be established on this earth. NO ONE IS GOING TO HEAVEN. And it’s strange that most people who consider themselves “once saved always saved” are the same ones that tell you that God’s commandments were nailed to the cross. (v.37) FOR YET A LITTLE WHILE, AND HE THAT SHALL COME WILL COME, AND WILL NOT TARRY.

(v.38) NOW THE JUST SHALL LIVE BY FAITH: BUT IF ANY MAN DRAW BACK, MY SOUL SHALL HAVE NO PLEASURE IN HIM. What does Paul mean by if any man draw back? You mean that once you are quote “saved” that you can draw back. According to the apostle Paul you can. Just as you choose by your own free will to start serving the lord, you can by that same free will stop serving the lord or as Paul put it draw back. (v.39) But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul. That’s what you must do, you must have faith (believe) unto the saving of the soul. And your soul is not saved as soon as you start to believe on Jesus, salvation is works in progress, not a one step solution.
 
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Bro.T

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I'm not sure this is correct. When John wrote Revelation, it was a single book. There weren't others and I'm not sure he knew that his book would be included with other books and letters to create what we call the Bible. Same with Moses.

Even if, the Bible is to be considered one book, I'm not sure that with modern versions they have taken away or added as compared to the originals. For all we know, it is the KJV that has done so.

Either way, I just cannot read the KJV as I have outlined in another post.

Well, John wrote St. John and Revelation. One of the wonderful things about the power of God is by one dictator (Jesus), his word went forth through all generation from Genesis to Revelation, and everyone is one point. Do some comparison with different version with the KJV and see for yourself.
 
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Bro.T

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You don't know how the moon shines it's light?

It's basic Science, friend.
Did you never see any videos of men visiting the moon?
Did those who visited the moon observe that the surface of the moon was putting forth it's own light? Surely not.

I know its light, but how did God do it, is the question.
 
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Bro.T

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Now let's look at some other instructions that are in the Bible that we are to live our daily lives by.

The Circumcision: "And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect. And I will make my covenant between me and thee, and will multiply thee exceedingly. And Abram fell on his face: and God talked with him saying, "As for me, behold, my covenant is with thee, and thou shalt be a father of many nations. Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee. And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee. This is my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; every man child among you shall be circumcised.

And ye shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin; and it shall be a token of the covenant betwixt me and you. And he that is eight days old shall be circumcised among you, every man child in your generations, he that is born in the house, or bought with money of any stranger, which is not of thy seed. He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with thy money, must needs be circumcised: and my covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant. And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant.” (Genesis 17:1-5, 7, & 10-14)

The Sabbath Day: and the LORD spake unto Moses, saying "Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, verily my Sabbaths ye shall keep: for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that ye may know that I am the LORD that doth sanctify you.”Ye shall keep the Sabbath therefore; for it is holy unto you: every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death: for whosoever doeth any work therein, that soul shall be cut off from among his people. Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the Sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD: whosoever doeth any work in the Sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death. Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the Sabbath, to observe the Sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant. It is a sign between me and the children of Israel forever: for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed.” (Exodus 31:12-17)

The Dietary Law: Read the whole 11th chapter of Leviticus. I'll only put up a few verses. "And the LORD spake unto Moses and to Aaron, saying unto them, "Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, these are the beasts which ye shall eat among all the beasts that are on the earth." Whatsoever parteth the hoof, and is cloven-footed, and cheweth the cud, among the beasts, that shall ye eat. Nevertheless these shall ye not eat of them that chew the cud, or of them that divide the hoof: as the camel, because he cheweth the cud, but divideth not the hoof; he is unclean unto you. And the coney, because he cheweth the cud, but divideth not the hoof; he is unclean unto you. And the hare, because he cheweth the cud, but divideth not the hoof; he is unclean unto you. And the swine, though he divide the hoof, and be cloven-footed, yet he cheweth not the cud; he is unclean to you. Of their flesh shall ye not eat, and their carcase shall ye not touch; they are unclean to you. These shall ye eat of all that are in the waters: whatsoever hath fins and scales in the waters, in the seas, and in the rivers, them shall ye eat. And all that have not fins and scales in the seas, and in the rivers, of all that move in the waters, and of any living thing which is in the waters, they shall be an abomination unto you:

This is the law of the beasts, and of the fowl, and of every living creature that moveth in the waters, and of every creature that creepeth upon the earth: To make a difference between the unclean and the clean, and between the beast that may be eaten and the beast that may not be eaten.” (Leviticus 11:1-10, & 46-47)
 
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Isilwen

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Well, John wrote St. John and Revelation.

Still, he didn't know that the book of John would be compiled into one book. They didn't write these books or letters with the intention of there being a composition called the Bible.

Do some comparison with different version with the KJV and see for yourself.

Compare to the KJV? The KJV is just another translation.
 
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Aussie Pete

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You got cut off here. Not sure if you are disagreeing with end of the Saturday Sabbath command (not the end of the Sabbath as a calendar day), or if you are disagreeing with another thing.



The Bible mentions a thing called the: “work of faith”; It is mentioned two times in Scripture (See: 1 Thessalonians 1:3, and 2 Thessalonians 1:11). So naturally the “work of faith” would be a part of the “faith,” right?

Granted, we must first be saved by God's grace through faith in Jesus Christ and the gospel according to 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 (Which naturally leads to a changed born again heart), but without receiving our instructions from God (i.e. works of faith) it is a lack of faith. For if Noah just had a belief alone in GOD and He did not receive His instructions in building a boat and getting on it, He would have perished along with everyone else. For if you imply that God's Word is not an instruction manual, I would say that you don't know your Bible all too well.

For the Bible itself says this:

“All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness.” (2 Timothy 3:16).​

For what is the purpose of these things mentioned in 2 Timothy 3:16?

“That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.” (2 Timothy 3:17).​

Yet, this verse above (verse 17) is not believed by many churches.

“For the commandment is a lamp; and the law is light; and reproofs of instruction are the way of life:” (Proverbs 6:23).

Proverbs 6:23. Remember.... 6:23.

Romans 6:23 says, “For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.”

Unfortunately, most today think they can sin and still be saved because they have a belief alone on Jesus. But God's grace is not a license for immorality (Jude 1:4). We have to obey Jesus and not just believe in Him. For Acts of the Apostles 3:23 essentially says that every soul who does not hear that prophet (JESUS) will be destroyed from among the people. Matthew 7:26-27 says a similar thing. It basically says that everyone who does not do what Jesus says is like a fool who built His house upon the sand and when a storm came great was the fall of that house. This is tied in with Matthew 7:23 whereby Jesus told certain believers who did wonderful works in His name to depart from Him because they worked iniquity (or sin).

2 Timothy 2:25 says, “In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;”
How does Paul instruct those who oppose themselves? He does so with God's Word. So Paul instructs those who oppose themselves with God's Word. For Jesus, and His followers always quoted from Scripture in their guidance or instruction of believers.
Your response ignores the reality that most of the New Testament was not written. It was preached. Paul wrote mostly to churches that he had founded. You won't find a Bible verse that tells Peter to go to the house of a gentile to lead him to Christ. The Bible is vital, as I have said. But it is not the be all and end all. All who are led by the Spirit are children of God. Plenty of people follow the Bible religiously. They are not always led by the Spirit. And too many are not born again, as is obvious from the terrible state of the church, at least in the Western world.
 
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Your response ignores the reality that most of the New Testament was not written.

First problem. You did not address the verses that refute your false way of thinking that says that the Bible is not an instruction manual. In one part of 2 Timothy 3:16, Paul (not Peter) says, all Scripture is profitable for instruction in righteousness. Paul also says that he instructs those who oppose themselves in 2 Timothy 2:25; And the context...

“And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.” (2 Timothy 2:26).

What is the devil's will?

“He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning.” (1 John 3:8).

“Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.” (John 8:44).

Second problem, you made a statement saying that my response ignores the reality that most of the New Testament was not written for. However, you offer no Scripture to back up this claim in any way.

It was preached.

Do you believe 2 Timothy 3:16 when it says all Scripture is profitable for doctrine?
Do you believe that Paul's words are considered Scripture by even Peter in 2 Peter 3:16?

You said:
Paul wrote mostly to churches that he had founded.

So you believe in Mid Acts Dispensationalism (i.e. MAD)?

If so, MAD in certain circles teaches that there is one gospel by Jesus and another gospel by Paul.

However, Paul was a Jew. So if he was a Jew, then why would he teach that which did not apply to him? Also, why did Paul write to other Jews if he was supposed to only write to the Gentiles?

For Peter says that his beloved brother Paul had also had written unto of whom Peter was writing to, as well.

"And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction." (2 Peter 3:15-16).

In addition, ...

What was Paul's opinion regarding the teachings or words of Jesus Christ?

Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.”
(Colossians 2:8).

If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings, Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself.”
(1 Timothy 6:3-5).

So Jesus and Paul taught the same gospel or teaching.

In fact, Mid Acts Dispensationalism is nothing new. Back in Paul's day, people were also wrongfully following Paul, too. For Paul said that there should not be divisions between Christ and what he taught (1 Corinthians 1:10-13); For Paul said, "Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?" (1 Corinthians 1:13).​

You said:
You won't find a Bible verse that tells Peter to go to the house of a gentile to lead him to Christ. The Bible is vital, as I have said. But it is not the be all and end all.

full

You said:
All who are led by the Spirit are children of God.

The Spirit leads the child of God to obey the New Testament because it was inspired by the Holy Spirit.
For 2 Timothy 3:16 says all Scripture is given by inspiration of God. The Holy Spirit is God and the Holy Spirit wants us to obey God and not to justify sin as many in the church today do. There is no reinventing the wheel or adding new holy books to the Bible, or seeking out some new vision from God to be led by God. We have His Word as confirmation of the Spirit's leading.

You said:
Plenty of people follow the Bible religiously. They are not always led by the Spirit.

I can say the same thing to you, but we both cannot be right.

You said:
And too many are not born again, as is obvious from the terrible state of the church, at least in the Western world.

To be born again is a change of heart by the Spirit. This means that we have a new heart with new desires. It will be a heart that will not justify sin. One has to have a godly sorrow and be broken before God and seek forgiveness with the Lord Jesus Christ over their sin and believe in the redemptive work in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 in order to truly be born again. If not, they either received another Christ or spirit, or they are simply fooling themselves that they are born again (When they are not).

Usually when folks say that the Bible is not an instruction manual believe that they can sin and still be saved on some level and or that they cannot overcome mortal sin in this life (When the Bible teaches otherwise). If I am wrong, then by all means, I am willing to apologize. But usually this is the case in my experience.
 
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Aussie Pete

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First problem. You did not address the verses that refute your false way of thinking that says that the Bible is not an instruction manual. In one part of 2 Timothy 3:16, Paul (not Peter) says, all Scripture is profitable for instruction in righteousness. Paul also says that he instructs those who oppose themselves in 2 Timothy 2:25; And the context...

“And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.” (2 Timothy 2:26).

What is the devil's will?

“He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning.” (1 John 3:8).

“Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.” (John 8:44).

Second problem, you made a statement saying that my response ignores the reality that most of the New Testament was not written for. However, you offer no Scripture to back up this claim in any way.



Do you believe 2 Timothy 3:16 when it says all Scripture is profitable for doctrine?
Do you believe that Paul's words are considered Scripture by even Peter in 2 Peter 3:16?



So you believe in Mid Acts Dispensationalism (i.e. MAD)?

If so, MAD in certain circles teaches that there is one gospel by Jesus and another gospel by Paul.

However, Paul was a Jew. So if he was a Jew, then why would he teach that which did not apply to him? Also, why did Paul write to other Jews if he was supposed to only write to the Gentiles?

For Peter says that his beloved brother Paul had also had written unto of whom Peter was writing to, as well.

"And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction." (2 Peter 3:15-16).

In addition, ...

What was Paul's opinion regarding the teachings or words of Jesus Christ?

Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.”
(Colossians 2:8).

If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings, Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself.”
(1 Timothy 6:3-5).

So Jesus and Paul taught the same gospel or teaching.

In fact, Mid Acts Dispensationalism is nothing new. Back in Paul's day, people were also wrongfully following Paul, too. For Paul said that there should not be divisions between Christ and what he taught (1 Corinthians 1:10-13); For Paul said, "Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?" (1 Corinthians 1:13).​



full



The Spirit leads the child of God to obey the New Testament because it was inspired by the Holy Spirit.
For 2 Timothy 3:16 says all Scripture is given by inspiration of God. The Holy Spirit is God and the Holy Spirit wants us to obey God and not to justify sin as many in the church today do. There is no reinventing the wheel or adding new holy books to the Bible, or seeking out some new vision from God to be led by God. We have His Word as confirmation of the Spirit's leading.



I can say the same thing to you, but we both cannot be right.



To be born again is a change of heart by the Spirit. This means that we have a new heart with new desires. It will be a heart that will not justify sin. One has to have a godly sorrow and be broken before God and seek forgiveness with the Lord Jesus Christ over their sin and believe in the redemptive work in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 in order to truly be born again. If not, they either received another Christ or spirit, or they are simply fooling themselves that they are born again (When they are not).

Usually when folks say that the Bible is not an instruction manual believe that they can sin and still be saved on some level and or that they cannot overcome mortal sin in this life (When the Bible teaches otherwise). If I am wrong, then by all means, I am willing to apologize. But usually this is the case in my experience.
I won't buy into your assumptions as to what I believe exactly. I will repeat what the Lord Jesus said about the scriptures, all that was available at the time. The principle still applies right this moment.
John 5:
39“You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me; 40and you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have life.

I know the Bible reasonably well. I also know full well that knowing the Bible is not the same as knowing Christ (John 17:3).

'But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin. 8If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.…"

That was written to Christians. Christians can and do sin. Those who believe otherwise are deceived.
 
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I won't buy into your assumptions as to what I believe exactly.

No need; It looks like my assumptions were correct. I already figured out what you believe by searching the forums. You believe that there are two different gospels.

You stated elsewhere on the forums,

“Lord Jesus did not preach a gospel of personal salvation. He preached the Kingdom of God.”
by: ~ Aussie Pete.
Source:
The will of God and the will of man.


You said:
I will repeat what the Lord Jesus said about the scriptures, all that was available at the time. The principle still applies right this moment.
John 5:
39“You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me; 40and you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have life.

How ironic. The very Scripture you quote is the solution to your properly understanding “the gospel of the kingdom of God” that Jesus had His disciples preach.

The Kingdom of God is Jesus:

In other words, John the baptist said, "repent" (seek forgiveness with God by way of prayer), for the Kingdom of God (JESUS) was at hand (near, or coming).

We can read about how the disciples preached the kingdom of God before the cross:

"And he sent them to preach the kingdom of God, and to heal the sick." (Luke 9:2).​

Yet, the kingdom of God was preached after the cross, too:

"Preaching the kingdom of God, and teaching those things which concern the Lord Jesus Christ, with all confidence, no man forbidding him." (Acts of the Apostles 28:31).​

Kingdoms are made up of people.

Jesus is the head of the Kingdom.

For you cannot have a Kingdom without a King, and Jesus is the King of Kings.

The Kingdom of God is Jesus.

For the Kingdom can be within a person.

"Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you." (Luke 17:21).​

Jesus says, "If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you." (John 15:7). Jesus stands at the door of men's hearts and knocks to come inside them: "Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me." (Revelation 3:20). "That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love," (Ephesians 3:17).

Jesus identifies Himself as the Kingdom of God when He says,

"But if I with the finger of God cast out devils, no doubt the kingdom of God is come upon you." (Luke 11:20).​

When Jesus told His disciples that when they healed the sick, they are to say to them that the Kingdom of God has come near to them.

"And heal the sick there, and say to them, ‘The kingdom of God has come near to you.’" (Luke 10:9).​

This again is Jesus healing them. Jesus is the Kingdom of God. He is the One who heals.

"The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised," (Luke 4:18).​

Jesus is the One who lives in all believers thereby making up the Kingdom of God's people. It's why we are the body of Christ.

"So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another." (Romans 12:5).​

In other words, read the Scriptures on the NT gospels again; For it appears that you have missed that it was about Jesus and in having life by abiding in Him.

“Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.” (John 5:39-40).​

Some think that Jesus came to preach His return with the setting up of His Millennial Kingdom, and that is the kingdom that was at hand. But this is not the case. For Jesus said, “For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.” (John 3:17).

“When Jesus therefore perceived that they would come and take him by force, to make him a king, he departed again into a mountain himself alone.” (John 6:15).

Jesus came to save mankind with His death, burial, and resurrection.
For a big part of Christ's second coming is judgment so as to bring in His Millennial Kingdom.

This was not a part of Christ's plan with the Jews with His 1st coming to Earth.
His purpose in coming was for the salvation of mankind.

You said:
I know the Bible reasonably well.

You did not appear to know the truth within 2 Timothy 3:16 which talks about how all Scripture is profitable for instruction in righteousness; Neither did you appear to know about the truth in 2 Timothy 2:25 whereby Paul talks about how he instructed those who opposed themselves. In other words, the Bible talks about instruction. Thus, this makes the Bible an instruction manual. For if a person does not receive their instructions in coming to the Lord Jesus Christ for salvation (seeking His forgiveness and believing the gospel in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4), and they do not obey the Lord Jesus, they will not be saved.

You said:
I also know full well that knowing the Bible is not the same as knowing Christ (John 17:3).

How can we have an assurance that we truly know Christ?

“And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.” (1 John 2:3).

“He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.” (1 John 2:4).

You said:
'But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin. 8If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.…"

This is a major problem here. You are quoting 1 John 1:8 from the slanted wrong interpretation made by the majority of believers today who believe they can commit mortal sin and still be saved. For if we were to take your interpretation on 1 John 1:8 as being true here, then you cannot believe verses 7, and 9. For 1 John 1:7 basically says if we walk in the light, the blood of Jesus cleanses us from all sin. See, you don't really believe that. You really don't believe it is possible to walk in the light in order for the blood of Jesus Christ to cleanse you from all sin because you believe that a believer must always admit that they sin as per 1 John 1:8. You also do not believe 1 John 1:9 if you hold to the popular OSAS interpretation on 1 John 1:8, as well. How so? Well, because if you were to actually read and believe the last part of 1 John 1:9, it says that the end goal is to be cleansed from all unrighteousness (Which is by confessing sin).

You said:
That was written to Christians. Christians can and do sin. Those who believe otherwise are deceived.

What is helpful in understanding 1 John 1:8 is looking at its immediate context. 1 John 1:10 says if we say we have not sinned. 1 John 1:10 switches gears from 1 John 1:8 in regards to time; John talks about the declaration on committing sin in verse 8 (which is present tense) to a declaration on committing sin being a past declaration (with verse 10). Verse 10 is saying there are people who said they have not sinned (past tense). This is clearly a gnostic belief. Why? Well, most believers today hold to the idea that they have sinned as a part of their old life before coming to Christ (Regardless of whether they are “OSAS,” a “Sin and still be saved” type believer, or a “Conditional Salvationist”). So this clearly is a “gnostic belief” that John was warning the brethren about (See 1 John 2:26). 1 John 1:8 is a present declaration of sin. It is saying if we say we have no sin when we do sin (present tense). This has to be the interpretative understanding of this verse because 1 John 2:4 says if we say we know Him and do not keep His commandments we are a liar and the truth is not in us. The OSAS's interpretation on 1 John 1:8 does not work because it conflicts with a normal reading on 1 John 2:3-4. You cannot always be in sin (breaking God's commands) as a part of 1 John 1:8 and yet also fulfill 1 John 2:3 that says we can have an assurance of knowing Him if we keep His commandments. Especially when 1 John 2:4 says we are a liar and the truth is not in us if we break his commandments. In other words, if the OSAS interpretation on 1 John 1:8 was true, then I would be damned if I do by obeying God's commands (1 John 1:8) and yet I would be damned if I don't by not obeying God's commands (1 John 2:4).

In fact, the New English Translation says this for 1 John 1:8,

"If we say we do not bear the guilt of sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us." (1 John 1:8 NET).​

In other words, this verse is saying that if a person sins and says they do not bear the guilt of sin (in the sense that they will not have to face any wrath or Judgment from God over their sin) then they would be deceiving themselves and the truth would not be in them. This is exactly what the Eternal Security proposes. They are saying that they do not bear the guilt of any sin (destruction of their soul and body in hell fire) if they do sin because they believe their future sins are paid for by Jesus. They are saying, they do not bear the guilt or the punishment of sin at the final Judgment because of their belief on Jesus. In short, 1 John 1:8 is a denial of the existence of sin on some level. “If we say we have no sin (in the sense that it does not exist) we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.” (1 John 1:8). Christian Scientists think sin is an illusion and does not exist at all. So this verse would apply to them. Eternal Security Proponents and those who deny that “Sin Can Separate a Believer from God” deny the existence of sin partially. They believe sin exists physically but they do not believe sin exists for them on a spiritual level because Jesus has forgiven them of all their sin by their belief on Jesus. In fact, to see just how silly your argument actually is for 1 John 1:8, you would have to believe that you are sinning right now at this very moment in order for such a verse to be true because 1 John 1:8 is speaking in the present tense.

John prescribes that we do not think that sin is an illusion, and we are automatically saved, but John is telling us to "sin not" and go to our advocate Jesus Christ (1 John 2:1), and confess our sins so as to be forgiven of sin and to be cleansed of all unrighteousness (1 John 1:9). How can you confess and be forgiven of sin if all your future sin is paid for? It makes no sense.

You can say that John is talking about a break of fellowship by one's sins and not a loss of salvation, but that would not be consistent with Scripture. 1 John 5:12 says he that has the Son has life, and he that does not have the Son does not have life.
 
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Bro.T

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Still, he didn't know that the book of John would be compiled into one book. They didn't write these books or letters with the intention of there being a composition called the Bible.



Compare to the KJV? The KJV is just another translation.

A little background about the KJV and the power of God.

With the death of Queen Elizabeth I, Prince James VI of Scotland became King James I of England. The Protestant clergy approached the new King in 1604 and announced their desire for a new translation to replace the Bishop's Bible first printed in 1568. They knew that the Geneva Version had won the hearts of the people because of its excellent scholarship, accuracy, and exhaustive commentary. However, they did not want the controversial marginal notes (proclaiming the Pope an Anti-Christ, etc.) Essentially, the leaders of the church desired a Bible for the people, with scriptural references only for word clarification or cross-references.

This "translation to end all translations" (for a while at least) was the result of the combined effort of about fifty scholars. They took into consideration: The Tyndale New Testament, The Coverdale Bible, The Matthews Bible, The Great Bible, The Geneva Bible, and even the Rheims New Testament. The great revision of the Bishop's Bible had begun. From 1605 to 1606 the scholars engaged in private research. From 1607 to 1609 the work was assembled. In 1610 the work went to press, and in 1611 the first of the huge (16 inch tall) pulpit folios known today as "The 1611 King James Bible" came off the printing press.

With all the different Bible translations we have floating around today, it seems a hard task to choose the most accurate one. You might even question the fact of there being an accurate account of the Bible, aside from the original Hebrew Scrolls. Much of this confusion has come about because many modern day religious translators have attempted to interpret the Bible, instead of merely translating it. Therefore, when they translate the Bible they add, change or delete certain words to make it confirm to their religious doctrine. God was aware that this would happen and had John write, "For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book: If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophesy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book." (Revelation 22:18-19).

When King James had the Bible translated he appointed 54 scholars to do the work instead of religious people. This made it possible for him to change the form, from Hebrew and Greek to English, without changing the meaning. In other words he made the Bible say the exact same thing, only in another language. This in itself was a fulfillment of prophecy, "For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people" (Isaiah 28:11). The Lord knew that his people would not always remain in their own land, speaking Hebrew, so he had Isaiah to prophesy that he would have his word put into other languages.

Now I ask you, is this too hard for God to do? God has always worked through men, especially kings, to fulfill his word. During the days of Ezra he worked through Cyrus, King of Persia, to fulfill his word. "Now in the first year of Cyrus King of Persia, that the word of the Lord might be fulfilled, the Lord stirred up the spirit of Cyrus, King of Persia, that he made a proclamation throughout all his kingdom, and put it in writing..." (Ezra 1:1). The Lord worked through Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon to such a great extent that he even called Nebuchadnezzar his servant although he was not a true servant of God. And now have I given all these lands into the hand of Nebuchadnezzar the king of Babylon, my servant; and the beasts of the field have I given him also to serve him. And all nations shall serve him, and his son, and his son's son, until the very time of his land come: and then many nations and great kings shall serve themselves of him. (Jeremiah 27:6,7). Therefore, it should not be hard to believe that God would use King James (another Gentile King) to fulfill his word. If God is God who can stop his purpose. Remember, contrary to popular belief, God rules in the Kingdom of men.

Nevertheless, under the disguise of making the Bible easier to read and understand many religious groups have come up with error filled revisions of the Bible. Because of the lack of space, I will only point out one of these so-called modern translations. On page 30 of the April 5, 1987 edition of the Chicago Sun-Times the heading read, "Catholics given revised version of New Testament." The article began, "The Nation's Roman Catholic bishops released today an updated New Testament translation that features some gender-neutral language and modern English usages that make it easier to read aloud in worship services." This is one of many examples that I could give of a religious group changing the Word of God to fit its dogma.Israel,

The Catholics like other religious groups might have meant well in their attempt to rewrite the scripture but remember what John said in Revelation about adding and taking away from the word.

King James did not have this problem because he chose scholars who did not care about changing the meaning but only changing the tongue. If the word was man in Hebrew they simply made it man in English.
 
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Bro.T

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First problem. You did not address the verses that refute your false way of thinking that says that the Bible is not an instruction manual. In one part of 2 Timothy 3:16, Paul (not Peter) says, all Scripture is profitable for instruction in righteousness. Paul also says that he instructs those who oppose themselves in 2 Timothy 2:25; And the context...

“And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.” (2 Timothy 2:26).

What is the devil's will?

“He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning.” (1 John 3:8).

“Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.” (John 8:44).

Second problem, you made a statement saying that my response ignores the reality that most of the New Testament was not written for. However, you offer no Scripture to back up this claim in any way.



Do you believe 2 Timothy 3:16 when it says all Scripture is profitable for doctrine?
Do you believe that Paul's words are considered Scripture by even Peter in 2 Peter 3:16?



So you believe in Mid Acts Dispensationalism (i.e. MAD)?

If so, MAD in certain circles teaches that there is one gospel by Jesus and another gospel by Paul.

However, Paul was a Jew. So if he was a Jew, then why would he teach that which did not apply to him? Also, why did Paul write to other Jews if he was supposed to only write to the Gentiles?

For Peter says that his beloved brother Paul had also had written unto of whom Peter was writing to, as well.

"And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction." (2 Peter 3:15-16).

In addition, ...

What was Paul's opinion regarding the teachings or words of Jesus Christ?

Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.”
(Colossians 2:8).

If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings, Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself.”
(1 Timothy 6:3-5).

So Jesus and Paul taught the same gospel or teaching.

In fact, Mid Acts Dispensationalism is nothing new. Back in Paul's day, people were also wrongfully following Paul, too. For Paul said that there should not be divisions between Christ and what he taught (1 Corinthians 1:10-13); For Paul said, "Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?" (1 Corinthians 1:13).​



full



The Spirit leads the child of God to obey the New Testament because it was inspired by the Holy Spirit.
For 2 Timothy 3:16 says all Scripture is given by inspiration of God. The Holy Spirit is God and the Holy Spirit wants us to obey God and not to justify sin as many in the church today do. There is no reinventing the wheel or adding new holy books to the Bible, or seeking out some new vision from God to be led by God. We have His Word as confirmation of the Spirit's leading.



I can say the same thing to you, but we both cannot be right.

To be born again is a change of heart by the Spirit. This means that we have a new heart with new desires. It will be a heart that will not justify sin. One has to have a godly sorrow and be broken before God and seek forgiveness with the Lord Jesus Christ over their sin and believe in the redemptive work in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 in order to truly be born again. If not, they either received another Christ or spirit, or they are simply fooling themselves that they are born again (When they are not).

Usually when folks say that the Bible is not an instruction manual believe that they can sin and still be saved on some level and or that they cannot overcome mortal sin in this life (When the Bible teaches otherwise). If I am wrong, then by all means, I am willing to apologize. But usually this is the case in my experience.

I really like that you provide verses to your conversation, that's the way. Let's get some understanding about born again according to the Bible. Born again, is a change in body not the mind. Now, Let’s jump right in a conversation that Jesus was having with a man name Nicodemus.

John 3:1 There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews: 2 The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him. 3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

Notice verse 3, except a man is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. We have just learned something here. If you are not born again you can not see the kingdom of God. As we go further you will understand this. Remember there is a time for everything.

Nicodemus asked a very good question. Take a look at the next set of verses.

John 3:4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born? 5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

In verse 5, born of the water in this case is the Word of God. Notice the Lord mentions the kingdom of God again, but He adds a little more information. He says "Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. When he mentions spirit He means exactly that. Watch how the Lord gives something physical to describe exactly what He means.

John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Notice He made a difference between flesh and spirit.

John 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

Notice He compared the wind to a spirit. Can you see the wind? No! We have seen things being blown around by the wind, but we have never seen the wind. If you are born of the spirit you are like the wind. This is when you are truly born again, when you are born of the spirit.

Notice what Jesus does in these next few verses. Remember, this is after His resurrection.

John 20:26 And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you. 27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing. 28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.

Note two very important things within these verses. 1. Jesus appeared in the midst of them and the doors were shut. 2. Thomas called Him God. When Jesus came out of the grave he was born into the God family. When Thomas called Jesus God was he still a man? Take a look at this verse in the book of Numbers.

Numbers 23:19 God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? Or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?

Note what the verse says, God is not a man, neither is he the son of man. While Jesus walked with His disciples He called Himself the son of man. He was exactly that. He was born of a woman. But, when he was raised from the dead He was no longer in the man family neither was He flesh and blood. If he was flesh and blood He would not have been able to appear in the middle of the room with his apostles.

I can go on and on, but this is when you born again.
 
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Manners and Righteousness: and the LORD spake unto Moses saying, "Speak unto all the congregation of the children of Israel, and say unto them, ye shall be holy: for I the LORD your God am holy." Ye shall fear every man his mother, and his father, and keep my Sabbaths: I am the LORD your God. Turn ye not unto idols, nor make to yourselves molten gods: I am the LORD your God. And when ye reap the harvest of your land, thou shalt not wholly reap the corners of thy field; neither shalt thou gather the gleanings of thy harvest. And thou shalt not glean thy vineyard, neither shalt thou gather every grape of thy vineyard; thou shalt leave them for the poor and stranger:

I am the LORD your God. Ye shall not steal, neither deal falsely, neither lie one to another. And ye shall not swear by my name falsely, neither shalt thou profane the name of thy God: I am the LORD. Thou shalt not defraud thy neighbour, neither rob him: the wages of him that is hired shall not abide with thee all night until the morning. Thou shalt not curse the deaf, nor put a stumbling block before the blind, but shalt fear thy God: I am the LORD.

Ye shall do no unrighteousness in judgment: thou shalt not respect the person of the poor, nor honour the person of the mighty: but in righteousness shalt thou judge thy neighbour. Thou shalt not go up and down as a talebearer among thy people: neither shalt thou stand against the blood of thy neighbour: I am the LORD. Thou shalt not hate thy brother in thine heart: thou shalt in any wise rebuke thy neighbour, and not suffer sin upon him. Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the LORD. Ye shall not eat any thing with the blood: neither shall ye use enchantment, nor observe times. Ye shall not round the corners of your heads; neither shalt thou mar the corners of thy beard. Ye shall not make any cuttings in your flesh for the dead, nor print any marks upon you: I am the LORD. Do not prostitute thy daughter, to cause her to be a harlot; lest the land fall to whoredom, and the land become full of wickedness. Ye shall keep my Sabbaths, and reverence my sanctuary: I am the LORD. Regard not them that have familiar spirits, neither seek after wizards, to be defiled by them: I am the LORD your God. Thou shalt rise up before the hoary head, and honour the face of the old man, and fear thy God: I am the LORD.” (Leviticus 19:1-4, 9-18, & 26-32)

Numbers 15:16 One law and one manner shall be for you, and for the stranger that sojourneth with you
 
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Isilwen

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A little background about the KJV and the power of God.

With the death of Queen Elizabeth I, Prince James VI of Scotland became King James I of England. The Protestant clergy approached the new King in 1604 and announced their desire for a new translation to replace the Bishop's Bible first printed in 1568. They knew that the Geneva Version had won the hearts of the people because of its excellent scholarship, accuracy, and exhaustive commentary. However, they did not want the controversial marginal notes (proclaiming the Pope an Anti-Christ, etc.) Essentially, the leaders of the church desired a Bible for the people, with scriptural references only for word clarification or cross-references.

This "translation to end all translations" (for a while at least) was the result of the combined effort of about fifty scholars. They took into consideration: The Tyndale New Testament, The Coverdale Bible, The Matthews Bible, The Great Bible, The Geneva Bible, and even the Rheims New Testament. The great revision of the Bishop's Bible had begun. From 1605 to 1606 the scholars engaged in private research. From 1607 to 1609 the work was assembled. In 1610 the work went to press, and in 1611 the first of the huge (16 inch tall) pulpit folios known today as "The 1611 King James Bible" came off the printing press.

With all the different Bible translations we have floating around today, it seems a hard task to choose the most accurate one. You might even question the fact of there being an accurate account of the Bible, aside from the original Hebrew Scrolls. Much of this confusion has come about because many modern day religious translators have attempted to interpret the Bible, instead of merely translating it. Therefore, when they translate the Bible they add, change or delete certain words to make it confirm to their religious doctrine. God was aware that this would happen and had John write, "For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book: If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophesy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book." (Revelation 22:18-19).

When King James had the Bible translated he appointed 54 scholars to do the work instead of religious people. This made it possible for him to change the form, from Hebrew and Greek to English, without changing the meaning. In other words he made the Bible say the exact same thing, only in another language. This in itself was a fulfillment of prophecy, "For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people" (Isaiah 28:11). The Lord knew that his people would not always remain in their own land, speaking Hebrew, so he had Isaiah to prophesy that he would have his word put into other languages.

Now I ask you, is this too hard for God to do? God has always worked through men, especially kings, to fulfill his word. During the days of Ezra he worked through Cyrus, King of Persia, to fulfill his word. "Now in the first year of Cyrus King of Persia, that the word of the Lord might be fulfilled, the Lord stirred up the spirit of Cyrus, King of Persia, that he made a proclamation throughout all his kingdom, and put it in writing..." (Ezra 1:1). The Lord worked through Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon to such a great extent that he even called Nebuchadnezzar his servant although he was not a true servant of God. And now have I given all these lands into the hand of Nebuchadnezzar the king of Babylon, my servant; and the beasts of the field have I given him also to serve him. And all nations shall serve him, and his son, and his son's son, until the very time of his land come: and then many nations and great kings shall serve themselves of him. (Jeremiah 27:6,7). Therefore, it should not be hard to believe that God would use King James (another Gentile King) to fulfill his word. If God is God who can stop his purpose. Remember, contrary to popular belief, God rules in the Kingdom of men.

Nevertheless, under the disguise of making the Bible easier to read and understand many religious groups have come up with error filled revisions of the Bible. Because of the lack of space, I will only point out one of these so-called modern translations. On page 30 of the April 5, 1987 edition of the Chicago Sun-Times the heading read, "Catholics given revised version of New Testament." The article began, "The Nation's Roman Catholic bishops released today an updated New Testament translation that features some gender-neutral language and modern English usages that make it easier to read aloud in worship services." This is one of many examples that I could give of a religious group changing the Word of God to fit its dogma.Israel,

The Catholics like other religious groups might have meant well in their attempt to rewrite the scripture but remember what John said in Revelation about adding and taking away from the word.

King James did not have this problem because he chose scholars who did not care about changing the meaning but only changing the tongue. If the word was man in Hebrew they simply made it man in English.

And? I have read all this before. You still haven't addressed what I have said. Why is that?

I'll say it again. The KJV is too hard for me too read. It's distracting and isn't even the language that I read today.

Also, when John said what he said in Revelation, it was only about that book. Had nothing to do with what we call the Bible today beyond Revelation being in the Bible. Revelation being a book among other books and letters and compiled into one book.
 
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Aussie Pete

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Wrong again. There is one gospel, the gospel of the kingdom. That is rarely preached these days. There are two salvations. The initial experience is to be born again. The subsequent, ongoing experience is the salvation of the soul. Any unbiased study of God's word makes the two salvations plain. It is also the answer to the perennial question as to whether or not a Christian can lose his salvation.

The inability of Christians to discern, teach and preach the two salvations leads to a number of problems. Often, preaching majors on the salvation of the soul to people who are not even born again. There is no point attempting to clean up the life of an unbeliever. That condemns him to a life of failure and defeat. It's hard enough for those who are born again.

It also leads to the confusion over the Christian's eternal security. That debate should not even be happening. Eternal life is just that, eternal. So we have doubting believers who are not sure of their salvation and deceived unbelievers who just think that they are saved.

If you want to know why the church (so called) is such a mess, you've just read one of the main reasons.
 
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I really like that you provide verses to your conversation, that's the way. Let's get some understanding about born again according to the Bible. Born again, is a change in body not the mind. Now, Let’s jump right in a conversation that Jesus was having with a man name Nicodemus.

John 3:1 There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews: 2 The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him. 3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

Notice verse 3, except a man is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. We have just learned something here. If you are not born again you can not see the kingdom of God. As we go further you will understand this. Remember there is a time for everything.

Nicodemus asked a very good question. Take a look at the next set of verses.

John 3:4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born? 5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

In verse 5, born of the water in this case is the Word of God. Notice the Lord mentions the kingdom of God again, but He adds a little more information. He says "Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. When he mentions spirit He means exactly that. Watch how the Lord gives something physical to describe exactly what He means.

John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Notice He made a difference between flesh and spirit.

John 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

Notice He compared the wind to a spirit. Can you see the wind? No! We have seen things being blown around by the wind, but we have never seen the wind. If you are born of the spirit you are like the wind. This is when you are truly born again, when you are born of the spirit.

Notice what Jesus does in these next few verses. Remember, this is after His resurrection.

John 20:26 And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you. 27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing. 28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.

Note two very important things within these verses. 1. Jesus appeared in the midst of them and the doors were shut. 2. Thomas called Him God. When Jesus came out of the grave he was born into the God family. When Thomas called Jesus God was he still a man? Take a look at this verse in the book of Numbers.

Numbers 23:19 God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? Or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?

Note what the verse says, God is not a man, neither is he the son of man. While Jesus walked with His disciples He called Himself the son of man. He was exactly that. He was born of a woman. But, when he was raised from the dead He was no longer in the man family neither was He flesh and blood. If he was flesh and blood He would not have been able to appear in the middle of the room with his apostles.

I can go on and on, but this is when you born again.

Read the King James Bible next to the Good News Translation.
The Good News Translation is clarifying what the KJB is saying.
Pay special attention to verse 6.


full


You are saying that being born again is a physical thing. Jesus is saying the exact opposite in verse 6. He is saying we must be born again spiritually.

For Jesus says,

“that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.” (John 3:6).​

We also see an allusion to being born again elsewhere in Scripture.

Titus 3:5 (in part) says,
“...according to his mercy he saved us,
by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;”

Even Old Testament saints were born again spiritually.

Check out the verses in this thread here:

Old Testament saints were born again.

Being born again is a change of one's heart spiritually by the Holy Spirit.
They become a new creature or creation in Christ.
To not understand this is to speak against what the Word plainly says.

Side Note:

We must be born again of the Spirit (by seeking forgiveness with Jesus Christ, and believing that He died for our sins, He was buried, and He was risen three days later on our behalf with a godly sorrow). We must seek forgiveness with the Lord with the intent that we are not going to justify sin but we are going to dedicate our lives in living for the Lord Jesus Christ. Most Christians today think they can sin and still be saved. So either they accepted a false gospel, or they later fell for a false gospel later on. For Titus 2:11-12 says that God's grace teaches us to deny ungodliness and that we should live godly, and righteously in this present world.

We must be born again of water. This is having a super natural experience with God's Word in that it is divine. We receive all of God's Word as the perfect and inerrant Word of God. But we need both to be born again of the Spirit, and to be born again of water (i.e. the washing of the water of the Word). For we are born not of corruptible seed, but by the incorruptible seed (Which is the Word of God).
 
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Read the King James Bible next to the Good News Translation.
The Good News Translation is clarifying what the KJB is saying.
Pay special attention to verse 6.


full


You are saying that being born again is a physical thing. Jesus is saying the exact opposite in verse 6. He is saying we must be born again spiritually.

For Jesus says,

“that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.” (John 3:6).​

We also see an allusion to being born again elsewhere in Scripture.

Titus 3:5 (in part) says,
“...according to his mercy he saved us,
by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;”

Even Old Testament saints were born again spiritually.

Check out the verses in this thread here:

Old Testament saints were born again.

Being born again is a change of one's heart spiritually by the Holy Spirit.
They become a new creature or creation in Christ.
To not understand this is to speak against what the Word plainly says.

Side Note:

We must be born again of the Spirit (by seeking forgiveness with Jesus Christ, and believing that He died for our sins, He was buried, and He was risen three days later on our behalf with a godly sorrow). We must seek forgiveness with the Lord with the intent that we are not going to justify sin but we are going to dedicate our lives in living for the Lord Jesus Christ. Most Christians today think they can sin and still be saved. So either they accepted a false gospel, or they later fell for a false gospel later on. For Titus 2:11-12 says that God's grace teaches us to deny ungodliness and that we should live godly, and righteously in this present world.

We must be born again of water. This is having a super natural experience with God's Word in that it is divine. We receive all of God's Word as the perfect and inerrant Word of God. But we need both to be born again of the Spirit, and to be born again of water (i.e. the washing of the water of the Word). For we are born not of corruptible seed, but by the incorruptible seed (Which is the Word of God).

Ok, Let's get some understanding, about John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Notice He made a difference between flesh and spirit.
We are born a flesh, the angels are born a Spirit. But in the first resurrection, we will be born a spirit, just like Jesus. Let's take a look at this in 1 Corinthians 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. 21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. So now we moving to the first resurrection. All is still in the grave, the prophets, apostles, and others who are saints, until this time awake. Jesus is the first to be raise from the dead and become a spirit being, which is born again. Now, many people been raise from the dead and die again, but this resurrection you don't die anymore. This will happen at the last trump. Let's skip down to verse 42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: 43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: 44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. 45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

This is what Jesus is telling the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews, Paul didn't write all this at that time, because he was Pharisees hisself. Let's take a look at that last trump, skip down to 51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. 55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

Let get back to Jesus in John 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

Notice He compared the wind to a spirit. Can you see the wind? No! We have seen things being blown around by the wind, but we have never seen the wind. If you are born of the spirit you are like the wind. This is when you are truly born again, when you are born of the spirit.

Notice what Jesus does in these next few verses. Remember, this is after His resurrection.

John 20:26 And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you. 27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing. 28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.

Note two very important things within these verses. 1. Jesus appeared in the midst of them and the doors were shut. 2. Thomas called Him God. When Jesus came out of the grave he was born into the God family.

I agree that you have a to have a change in mind overall, Paul says in Romans 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
 
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