The Day of the Lord is at Hand for all the Nations

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eclipsenow

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Revelation 20:4-5 does not say those martyrs resurrected are in heaven.
John refers to 'thrones' again bringing to mind the earlier chapter of Revelation that has thrones. He does not specify where they are, so it makes much more sense to just assume he is talking about the same thrones.

They co-reign with Christ on earth,
I've been calling you out on this for about 20 posts.
IT NEVER SAID THAT!
Prove it!
That's your assertion from your presuppositions.
But the passage talks about souls with Jesus before thrones and never ONCE refers to the climactic, eternal change that happens when the Lord returns.
Your understanding contradicts the Millennium in Rev 20.
Your understanding contradicts the CLEARER verses about the Lord's climactic, eternal, definitive Judgement Day on his return!


for the next 1000 years.

As I have said many many times and it just does not seem to sink in, the Israelites often used 1000 figuratively. They tended to use it literally when counting troops etc, but when multiplying out symbolic numbers like the 12 Tribes Times the 12 Apostles Times 1000 - it means "The full old covenant multiplied by the full new covenant multiplied by a gazillion!" So the 144,000 isn't a number, but a beautiful symbol of the perfect fullness of the kingdom of God.

What is the 1000 years symbolic of? Let me remind you of Psalm 50 which mentions hills. There are well over a million mountains on earth, let alone all the smaller hills. If the Israelites always used the number 1000 literally, then quite a few passages in the bible are making weird claims!

Psalm 50

I have no need of a bull from your stall
or of goats from your pens,
10 for every animal of the forest is mine,
and the cattle on a thousand hills.
11 I know every bird in the mountains,
and the insects in the fields are mine.
12 If I were hungry I would not tell you,
for the world is mine, and all that is in it.​

The whole world is his - and everything in it. Except the 999,000 other hills that he apparently doesn't own the cattle on? See, literally this would be saying God only everything on the earth - except only the cattle on 1000 hills and NOT THE REST!

The raising of all the dead, everyone who has ever lived, does not happen simultaneously with those GT martyrs. It is 1000 years later, as we are clearly told.
You've got the location wrong and have never addressed the fact that Jesus does not return in the Millennium so NO - you do not get to destroy the plain meaning of the clearer verses of the New Testament like the Sheep and Goats that show Jesus returns and it's ALL OVER for world history!

Heaven and Hell, why bring them up? Rev 20 is about earthly events.
Except you just click your ruby slippers together as if they have some kind of magic and keep ASSERTING the Millennium is about the earth without proving it.
The saints are dead, before the thrones in heaven, but alive in Jesus. That is the message.
Be a man and prove that Jesus is on the earth from this passage - and stop using these!
Ruby_slippers.jpg


The Millennium is a respite from the image of Judgement Day in Chapter 19 as John pauses to say "While all this destruction is going on, what's happening with those saints that were martyred?" Then he goes back to Judgement Day to describe another aspect of it in Rev 20.


Like most Christians today, you refuse to even consider what God has planned for our future.
Oh give me a break from your martyr complex will you!

Anglicans have a very high priority on reminding Christians of our future hope in Christ. We have it in our creeds and our sermons, especially sermons on suffering, especially if those sermons are working through Revelation. It's you that have destroyed this focus by insisting Revelation wasn't written to most Christians throughout history to understand and obey as John says in Chapter 1.

Apparently this book was written to YOU and YOU ALONE to understand! Which just makes me wince for you. Revelation Chapter 1 was clear. John wants his entire book to be listened to and OBEYED from the first century - so futurists that divorce the majority of the book from being to John's generation and about John's generation are just sadly misinformed - even destroying the meaning of the book.
 
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keras

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This is getting a bit off topic, but Presbyterians tend to reject 'soul-sleep' and accept that the dead are either in a foretaste of heaven or foretaste of hell - but awaiting their bodies on the resurrection day. Anglicans have mixed thoughts on this, with (anecdotally from those I've spoken with about this) more seeming to believe the Presbyterian version - but a large number starting with the Hebrew understanding of the integrated view of a human being. We're not physical entities 'with' a soul, we ARE a soul - mind, body, and spirit. To be human is to have bodies and brains and hormones and a nervous system. For these Anglicans, the view seems to be that we die and go straight to the last day - and questions about where we are BEFORE the last day are almost meaningless.
This thread has been off topic for most of the time. I don't mind, as any discussion is good.

Re what happens when we die;
The state of suspended animation that all humans experience after death, is for the dead person, an instant transition from life: to standing with all the rest of the dead before the Great White Throne Judgement of God. Revelation 20:11-15

Scripture says that when a person dies their soul goes back to God, who made it and because with God there is no time; then at the Great White Throne Judgement, after the Millennium, that soul; along with every soul that ever lived, is made conscious again at the time of Judgement. Revelation 20:12, There is no knowledge of any time passing between death and Judgement, just as Hebrews 9:27 says; It is the human lot to die once, then comes the Judgement.
 
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eclipsenow

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Also, a symbolic understanding of the 'Millennium' as Jesus reigning NOW from heaven actually aligns with all those clearer verses that say exactly the same thing!

Matthew 28
18 Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”
This is Jesus authority or reigning over this age as his gospel is declared.

Ephesians 1
18 I pray that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in his holy people, 19 and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is the same as the mighty strength 20 he exerted when he raised Christ from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, 21 far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every name that is invoked, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. 22 And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, 23 which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.
"Seated, placed, appointed" are all past tense. He reigns now. This is the 1000 years - the gazillion years between his Resurrection and Return.

Revelation 1

4 John, To the seven churches in the province of Asia:
Grace and peace to you from him who is, and who was, and who is to come, and from the seven spirits before his throne, 5 and from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth.
To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood, 6 and has made us to be a kingdom and priests to serve his God and Father—to him be glory and power for ever and ever! Amen.
He reigns now and we are his kingdom now. But not yet! There's 'eschatological tension' - Ephesians even says we are seated in heaven now with Christ even though we do not physically experience yet. Revelation reminds us of the future gospel hope we have when the Lord's kingdom is realised for all eternity.
 
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Spiritual Jew

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Paul prophesies a sequential order; Christ first, then at His Return, those who proved their faith in Him during the 43 month world control of the 'beast'. Revelation 20:4
Then ALL the rest of the dead, from Adam to the end of the 7000 years, will be raised to Judgment. Rev 20:5 and 11-15
Why are you adding to what Paul said? He only mentioned the order as being Christ's first and later those who are His at His coming. That's it. If there was any other believers to be resurrected unto bodily immortality I'm sure he would not have neglected to mention them.

It isn't scriptural or logical for every dead Christian to be raised for the Millennium, their reward comes in Eternity.
It's very scriptural that all of the dead in Christ will be raised at the same time because that is exactly what Paul taught in 1 Thess 4:14-17, 1 Cor 15:22-23 and 1 Cor 15:50-54. Jesus also taught in John 5:28-29 that an hour/time is coming when all of the dead will be raised including "they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life".

Conflation of the many trumpets, just leads to confusion.
Obviously the Seventh Trumpet is a prophecy of the soon to happen Return of Jesus, when He brings our rewards with Him. Matthew 16:27
There's no basis for thinking that the last trumpet Paul referred to is not the same trumpet as the seventh trumpet or that the trumpet mentioned in Matthew 24:29-31 and 1 Thess 4:14-17 are not also the same trumpet since they all relate to the return of Christ.

You ignored the distinction that I pointed out: When Jesus Returns, He will chain up Satan, Revelation 20:1-3
Matthew 25:46 says Satan and his followers will go into eternal punishment. That is their final fate.
Matthew 25:46 does not mention Satan at all. You just don't read scripture carefully enough. It says "And these shall go away into everlasting punishment". Who are "these" that Jesus was referring to that will go away into everlasting punishment? It was the "goats" who He had just been talking about in the verses just prior to that. They are the ones who He will tell to depart from Him into "everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels". The timing of Matthew 25:46 is given in the passage it's part of, which is Matthew 25:31-46. And the timing is "When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him".
 
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eclipsenow

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Matthew 25:46 does not mention Satan at all. You just don't read scripture carefully enough. It says "And these shall go away into everlasting punishment". Who are "these" that Jesus was referring to that will go away into everlasting punishment? It was the "goats" who He had just been talking about in the verses just prior to that. They are the ones who He will tell to depart from Him into "everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels". The timing of Matthew 25:46 is given in the passage it's part of, which is Matthew 25:31-46. And the timing is "When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him".

Exactly! But don't worry - Keras will find a way to just assert 46 isn't a part of anything that he doesn't want it to be a part of! :oldthumbsup: :doh: The sheep and the goats is one of the most OBVIOUS verses that clearly teaches that when the Lord returns everyone is judged. Other verses show that when the Lord returns everyone who has ever lived is raised and they are all judged. Other verses show that when the Lord returns we are changed instantly and this universe itself is transformed into something everlasting. How Keras and other futurists split these elements off from each other is just astonishing - all to justify their literalistic reading of the most symbolic and metaphorical book of the bible!
 
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Timtofly

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I saw this movie once where the hero got sucked up by a tornado and her house landed on a witch and she met a strawman, a tinman, and a lionman. They followed the yellow brick road to meet the great and powerful Oz! Relevance? This is kind of how weird it feels reading your posts sometimes when you try to defy the plain teaching of Scripture with your own weird reinterpretations of heaven and hell and basically splitting apart the different elements of Judgement Day into your own unusual timetable. Nevermind! We're off to the see the wizard!
2247.jpg
Here I thought your post deliberately did that with scenes from the movies.

I do not even have to go out of my way.

You really cannot see that John says, Death and sheol are cast into the lake of fire?
 
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Timtofly

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The way to interpret scripture is to ensure that none of our interpretations of any given scripture passage contradict any other scripture. I believe you fail that test repeatedly. A prime example of this in your case is how you interpret 2 Corinthians 5 in such a way that blatantly contradicts 1 Corinthians 15:50-55.
Are the dead raised first? Paul does not contradict himself. You take a literal interpretation. I take it that the bodily resurrection is ongoing. You claim Revelation 20 is currently ongoing, instead of a blatant contradiction that Satan is defeated at Armageddon and bound for 1000 years. I am not basing what I accept on your double standard, but when Paul claims it is ongoing, then claiming those living cannot prevent it, who is claiming a blatant contradiction? If Paul had said souls are coming back to collect their Adamic bodies, we would have an issue. John clearly states Satan is defeated at Armageddon and bound for 1000 years.

Saying Satan is bound for 1,000 years does not contradict a single verse in the Bible with the word 1000 or intent of 1000. It does not even contradict most amil interpretations. They are just spiritual applications. It would only contradict amil who declare it is fiction and does not exist.

You can state Paul's intent, is that souls have no bodies. You can also state they do and have them at death. Are the dead in Christ literally raised now or are they not in heaven at all? If no one is in heaven now, and can only come to life at the Second Coming, I can see your point. Paul does not say they are coming for their bodies or their resurection. They just rise first. It would also mean the 1000 years has not happened yet. We are still waiting for any Resurrection. Just the resurrection of Jesus does not explain Revelation 20:4 at the beginning of a 1000 year period (of any length).

Are you trying to press a point to argue against your own amil points? If there is resurrection of the dead, prove to me it cannot be to a better body. Are dead people changed now or does God have to bring back their original shape? What shape? A baby? A child? Is it a specific time, like a day before, a year before? The whole point is; you are basing it on when change comes to a living being, ie literally at the Second Coming. Paul specifically declares they do not have to wait for the living period. They are literally in Paradise now. We did not prevent that. They have permanent bodies now. We did not prevent that. At the Second Coming they rise first. Yes, for 1990 years. We did not prevent that. That is not a blatant contradiction. That is pointing out the facts. The Second Coming is the, "then we, which are alive and remain shall be changed".

Since all in heaven now have not been prevented from the change, do they all return to a dead state, seconds before the Second Coming, to be resurrected first? Is that a second resurrection?
 
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keras

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John refers to 'thrones' again bringing to mind the earlier chapter of Revelation that has thrones. He does not specify where they are, so it makes much more sense to just assume he is talking about the same thrones.
God, heaven and Thrones, are all a spiritual concept, so to place any of them into a physical location is wrong.
There are times when God allows people on earth to see them. Ezekiel 1:1, Revelation 7:9, +
I've been calling you out on this for about 20 posts.
IT NEVER SAID THAT!
Prove it!
The martyrs of Rev 20:4 will co-reign with Jesus on earth. They were on earth, they were killed by the 'beast' and their souls were kept under the Altar in heaven. Revelation 6:9 Jesus brings those souls back to earth at His Return.
Proved by Revelation 5:10, where those who remain alive will join them. 1 Thess 4:17, Matthew 24:31
Your understanding contradicts the CLEARER verses about the Lord's climactic, eternal, definitive Judgement Day on his return!
I find Revelation 20 narrative clearer and perfectly believable.
The final Judgment Day comes after Jesus has reigned for 1000 years.
As I have said many many times and it just does not seem to sink in, the Israelites often used 1000 figuratively.
There are instances where the use of 1000 is figurative. But that is not the case in Revelation 20, where it is used six times to denote the period of time between the glorious Return of Jesus, His Millennium reign and then comes the GWT Judgment.
You've got the location wrong and have never addressed the fact that Jesus does not return in the Millennium so NO - you do not get to destroy the plain meaning of the clearer verses of the New Testament like the Sheep and Goats that show Jesus returns and it's ALL OVER for world history!
The location of the GWT Judgment is most probably earthly; the dead come out of their graves and the sea gives up the dead in it.
The 'sheep and goat' separation is plainly told as of the nations; NOT individuals, as is the GWT Judgment, after Jesus reigns for 1000 years.

Other clearer verses? Show one that specifies when all mankind is Judged and Death is no more. Rev 20 has the only really clear sequence of events and you reject it!
The Millennium is a respite from the image of Judgement Day in Chapter 19 as John pauses to say "While all this destruction is going on, what's happening with those saints that were martyred?" Then he goes back to Judgement Day to describe another aspect of it in Rev 20.
Convoluted, twisted and totally wrong. Only someone with an agenda to refute the many Bible prophesies about Jesus as King of the world, believes this.
It's you that have destroyed this focus by insisting Revelation wasn't written to most Christians throughout history to understand and obey as John says in Chapter 1.
What an rude and false accusation!
I am sure all Christians get encouragement and hope from reading how God's Plans turns out for the good of His faithful people.
Apparently this book was written to YOU and YOU ALONE to understand!
Right, most people don't understand Revelation. You choose to reject it, to your discredit.
That the world has not yet experienced anything like what is prophesied from Revelation 6:12 to the end, is no reason to think it won't all take place.
God has allowed His Creation to become, once again; as in the days of Noah. He WILL act again to correct this situation.
Wait for the Day! ....
 
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Timtofly

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You could explain it to him 1000 more times and he still won't get it. I see this kind of thing often on this forum. People try to refute what other people believe without even understanding what the other person believes. So, they end up arguing with imaginary straw men. What is the point of that? Just a complete waste of time.
My point was a literal one, not even about what you all believe. If you saw the number 1000 on a dollar bill, would you automatically think a different number? The millennium? If you see the word resurrection would you you automatically think anything else? The only really figurative word in Revelation 20 is dragon, and John makes sure we understand it is the same being by adding a few more descriptive terms.

Saying Revelation 20 is too figurative to understand, is a blatant straw man defense. Revelation 20 is about the only chapter that has no figurative terms period. Using the term 1000 in this forum literally makes one think millennium, even if used any other way. "A thousand times and you still won't get it?"
 
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keras

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Wait for the Day:
Zephaniah 3:8 Wait for Me, says the Lord, wait for the Day when I stand up and accuse mankind. For I shall pour out My wrath upon nations and kingdoms, in My burning anger: the whole earth will be devastated by fire.

Zephaniah 1:14-18 The great Day of the Lord’s vengeance and wrath is near and coming fast. That Day will be a Day of distress and torment, a Day of devastation amid thick darkness. A Day of thunder and destruction against military fortifications and cities. the Lord will bring terrible distress upon the people, they won’t know which way to turn as they are punished for their sins against Me. Their blood and guts will be spilled out like filth over the ground. Neither their treasure nor their idols will be able to save them on the sudden and shocking Day of the Lord’s fiery anger. All the Land will be burned and devastated. Ezekiel 20:46-48

Zephaniah 2:1-3 Prepare yourselves, you undesirable nation, be humble before you disappear like chaff, before the burning anger of the Lord comes upon you. Seek righteousness; seek humility, all you people in the Land who obey God’s Laws and it may be that you will find shelter on the Day of the Lord’s anger.

Zephaniah 2:4-7 Gaza will be deserted, Ashkelon left in ruins. At midday all the towns of the Mediterranean coast will be cleared of inhabitants, for the Word of God is against you – land of the Philistines. I shall lay you in ruins, no one will survive. The sea coast will become a sheep grazing area belonging to the survivors of Judah, for their God will turn to them and restore their fortunes. Isaiah 14-1, Ezekiel 36:1-37

Zephaniah 2:8-10 I have noted the insults of Moab and the Ammonites, how they have reviled My people and encroached on their frontiers. For this, I swear, they will become like Sodom and Gomorrah, a place of weeds and salt pans. Those of My people who survive will inherit their land. This is retribution for their pride, because they have insulted God’s people and taken over their Land. Jeremiah 12:14, Amos 2:1-5

Zephaniah 3:11-13 On that Day, Jerusalem, I shall rid you of your proud and arrogant citizens, but I will leave a remnant, a humble people who will trust in Me. The survivors in Israel will be righteous, under My protection. Isaiah 31:5

Zephaniah 3:19-20 When the time comes and I have dealt with your oppressors, then I shall rescue the lost and gather the dispersed and bring you all to your homeland. You will win respect and renown from the other nations when I restore your fortunes before your very eyes, It is I, the Lord, who speaks. Ref: REB. Some verses abridged.


Wait for the Day; the whole earth burned and devastated. The only known way how this could happen, is by a massive Coronal Mass Ejection, a fire judgement mentioned and described over 100 times in Bible prophecy. It will be the event that ‘comes like a thief’, unexpected and shocking. Isaiah 30:26, Malachi 4:1

You undesirable nation – It may be that those who live righteously and humbly will ‘find shelter on the Day of the Lord’s anger.’ 2 Peter 2:9

Philistines and Moab and Ammon – Palestinians and Jordanians. Amos 1:6-8 & 13-14, Ezekiel 21:28-31

leave a remnant in Jerusalem, under My protection – Isaiah 4:3, Romans 9:27

rescue the lost....bring you home – The great gathering of all the faithful Christian peoples, prophesied more than 40 times, to happen soon after this forthcoming, worldwide fire judgement. They will live in the promised Land, under God’s protection and when the Anti Christ comes to Jerusalem, Daniel 11:31-32, Revelation 13:7, they are taken to a place of safety until the Return of Jesus.
 
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Timtofly

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How is the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels not the lake of fire? Does Revelation 20:10 not portray the devil being cast into the lake of fire? It should be clear that the lake of fire is the place prepared for the devil and his angels.

Satan is mentioned in Rev 20:10. But, it doesn't matter if they are mentioned or not. Do you think they will be let off the hook or something? Clearly, they will all end up in the lake of fire that was originally prepared for them.

The book of Revelation was originally written in Greek and there were no chapter breaks in the original text. So, Revelation 20:10 to 21:5 is one narrative about what will happen on the day of judgment. Revelation 21:1-5 describes the award that believers get at that time.

What?! This is another one of your private interpretations. Do you not understand that you must confess Jesus as your Lord to be saved? Is Jesus your Lord?

It's not tiring at all because it isn't true. You certainly have done nothing to prove it. You offer nothing but random, often incoherent, opinions and never any solid scriptural support for your opinions.
Because sheol was. Where is the lake of fire today? Is any one in it? Was sheol prepared for Adam?

And the narrative of 19 goes all the way to 21.
 
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Timtofly

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Wait a minute here. It is your ASSUMPTION that He is coming to the earth. Why do I have to agree with your ASSUMPTION? Nowhere does that passage say that it takes place on earth. I honestly could not care less if I contradict your assumptions. That doesn't mean I'm contradicting scripture.

Matthew 25:31-32

31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, accompanied by all the angels, he will sit on his glorious throne.
32 All the nations will be assembled before him, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates sheep from goats.

Jesus is talking about His Second Coming.
All agree angels come to earth, no?
How do nations and goats get to the new earth or heaven, especially after we agree they all just died at Armageddon. Well, I do not agree the Second Coming is at Armageddon, but if you force it all in the same 60 seconds, how did you get from heaven to earth, back to heaven, back to the new earth in 60 seconds? This whole entourage is beamed all over that quick, and then tossed back into the Lake of Fire?

Why can't it take place on the new earth? You are trying really hard here to find a contradiction in my beliefs, but it's completely based on YOUR interpretations of scripture. I'm not contradicting anything based on MY understanding of scripture. Do you understand what I'm saying?

Sin is not allowed.

If I was doing that then I would need to step back and re-evaluate how I'm interpreting things, but there are no contradictions in my own understanding of scripture. I don't interpret any given passage in such a way that contradicts my interpretation of another passage.

Does your interpretation of Satan's binding as being at the Cross in Revelation 20 not contradict your Interpretation of Revelation 16 and 19 that Satan, the FP, and the beast were defeated at Armageddon, or did Satan time travel back to 30AD?

You are always trying to force Amils to interpret passages according to YOUR understanding of other passages. I'm not going to do that. I'm going to interpret them based on my own understanding of scripture, overall. Not yours.

The new earth will not be in flames. Everything you're saying here is based on your own interpretation of things, not mine. Again, I don't care if I'm contradicting your interpretation. I would care if I was contradicting myself or contradicting clear scripture, but I don't believe I am.

Is a plain reading of Scripture that hard to accept, without any interpretation?

Do you ever change any plain reading of the text?

If you only use interpretation, how do you avoid contradicting a plain text reading?

Revelation 19 contains a lot of figurative language and 2 Peter 3 does not. For whatever reason, you don't make that distinction. Revelation 19:18 does indicate that "all people, free and slave, great and small" will be destroyed at His coming, but you don't take that literally, do you. So much for you taking it all literally.

What about not reading anything into the symbolism? Is that why I am not understood. I am too literal and not figurative enough?
 
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Timtofly

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This is getting a bit off topic, but Presbyterians tend to reject 'soul-sleep' and accept that the dead are either in a foretaste of heaven or foretaste of hell - but awaiting their bodies on the resurrection day. Anglicans have mixed thoughts on this, with (anecdotally from those I've spoken with about this) more seeming to believe the Presbyterian version - but a large number starting with the Hebrew understanding of the integrated view of a human being. We're not physical entities 'with' a soul, we ARE a soul - mind, body, and spirit. To be human is to have bodies and brains and hormones and a nervous system. For these Anglicans, the view seems to be that we die and go straight to the last day - and questions about where we are BEFORE the last day are almost meaningless.
To these Sydney Anglicans John would have had a vision of the martyred saints security in Christ - and however it actually works metaphysically - he wrote it in the symbols and idioms of the time.
Paul points out the Hebrew understanding: 2 Corinthians 5:4

4 Yes, while we are in this body, we groan with the sense of being oppressed: it is not so much that we want to take something off, but rather to put something on over it; so that what must die may be swallowed up by the Life.

The soul is naked without an incorruptible body and the outer robe of righteousness.

Most seem to agree neither happen until the Second Coming:

"A physical resurrection and a glorified robe of white only happen at the Second Coming."

With this misunderstanding, all other eschatology is based on this simple point.
 
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Timtofly

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I've been calling you out on this for about 20 posts.
IT NEVER SAID THAT!
Prove it!
That's your assertion from your presuppositions.
But the passage talks about souls with Jesus before thrones and never ONCE refers to the climactic, eternal change that happens when the Lord returns.
Your understanding contradicts the Millennium in Rev 20.
Your understanding contradicts the CLEARER verses about the Lord's climactic, eternal, definitive Judgement Day on his return!
On the contrary, they will be cohanim of God and of the Messiah, and they will rule with him for the thousand years.

How can it be any where but earth? Not some interpretation. From the text itself. Do you not use the text at all, or only interpretation?

7 When the thousand years are over, the Adversary will be set free from his prison
8 and will go out to deceive the nations in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them for the battle. Their number is countless as the sand on the seashore;
9 and they came up over the breadth of the Land and surrounded the camp of God’s people and the city he loves.

When was the scene change from heaven to earth? Did we change from one group of saints to another group of saints?
 
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Spiritual Jew

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My point was a literal one, not even about what you all believe. If you saw the number 1000 on a dollar bill, would you automatically think a different number? The millennium? If you see the word resurrection would you you automatically think anything else? The only really figurative word in Revelation 20 is dragon, and John makes sure we understand it is the same being by adding a few more descriptive terms.
So, the beast isn't a figurative term? And can a figurative dragon be bound with a literal chain in a literal bottomless pit or prison?

Saying Revelation 20 is too figurative to understand, is a blatant straw man defense. Revelation 20 is about the only chapter that has no figurative terms period. Using the term 1000 in this forum literally makes one think millennium, even if used any other way. "A thousand times and you still won't get it?"
Do you somehow not know that the term "thousand" is used figuratively several times in scripture?

Here are some examples:

Deuteronomy 7:9 Know therefore that the LORD thy God, he is God, the faithful God, which keepeth covenant and mercy with them that love him and keep his commandments to a thousand generations.

1 Chronicles 16:13-17 O ye seed of Israel his servant, ye children of Jacob, his chosen ones. He is the LORD our God; his judgments are in all the earth. Be ye mindful always of his covenant; the word which he commanded to a thousand generations; Even of the covenant which he made with Abraham, and of his oath unto Isaac; And hath confirmed the same to Jacob for a law, and to Israel for an everlasting covenant.

Psalm 91:5-7 A thousand and ten thousand are used together in Psalm 91, saying, "Thou shalt not be afraid for the terror by night; nor for the arrow that flieth by day; Nor for the pestilence that walketh in darkness; nor for the destruction that wasteth at noonday. A thousand shall fall at thy side, and ten thousand at thy right hand; but it shall not come nigh thee.

Deuteronomy 32:30 How should one chase a thousand, and two put ten thousand to flight, except their Rock had sold them, and the Lord had shut them up?

Joshua 23:10 One man of you shall chase a thousand: for the LORD your God, he it is that fighteth for you, as he hath promised you.

Isaiah 30:17, One thousand shall flee at the rebuke of one; at the rebuke of five shall ye flee: till ye be left as a beacon upon the top of a mountain, and as an ensign on an hill.

Psalm 84:9-10 Behold, O God our shield, and look upon the face of thine anointed. For a day in thy courts is better than a thousand. I had rather be a doorkeeper in the house of my God, than to dwell in the tents of wickedness.

Psalm 50:10-11 For every beast of the forest is mine, and the cattle upon a thousand hills. I know all the fowls of the mountains: and the wild beasts of the field are mine."

Ecclesiastes 7:27-28 "one man among a thousand have I found."

Job 33:23 If there be a messenger with him, an interpreter, one among a thousand, to shew unto man his uprightness.

Job 9:2-3 I know it is so of a truth: but how should man be just with God? If he will contend with him, he cannot answer him one of a thousand.

Isaiah 60:21-22 Thy people also shall be all righteous: they shall inherit the land for ever, the branch of my planting, the work of my hands, that I may be glorified. A little one shall become a thousand, and a small one a strong nation: I the Lord will hasten it in his time.

Amos 5:1-4 The virgin of Israel is fallen; she shall no more rise: she is forsaken upon her land; there is none to raise her up. For thus saith the Lord GOD; The city that went out by a thousand shall leave an hundred, and that which went forth by an hundred shall leave ten, to the house of Israel.
 
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DavidPT

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When was the scene change from heaven to earth? Did we change from one group of saints to another group of saints?

This has been one of my points as well. Amil makes no sense out of verse 4 in relation to verses 7-9. Per Amil the ones in verse 4 would be in heaven at the time, yet no one in verses 7-9 are surrounding the camp of saints in heaven, they are surrounding the camp of saints on earth, obviously. If those martyred saints in verse 4 play no part in verses 7-9, why even mention them at all?
 
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Spiritual Jew

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Are the dead raised first? Paul does not contradict himself. You take a literal interpretation. I take it that the bodily resurrection is ongoing. You claim Revelation 20 is currently ongoing, instead of a blatant contradiction that Satan is defeated at Armageddon and bound for 1000 years.
Do you know how hypocritical this is to be so critical of me taking a literal interpretation of 1 Cor 15:50-54 while you take a very literal interpretation of Revelation 20? Having a literal interpretation of any given passage is obviously not the issue since everyone knows that not all scripture is written in a literal, straightforward fashion. The fact is that scripture contains both literal and figurative language and we have to discern which is which for any given passage.

I am not basing what I accept on your double standard, but when Paul claims it is ongoing, then claiming those living cannot prevent it, who is claiming a blatant contradiction? If Paul had said souls are coming back to collect their Adamic bodies, we would have an issue. John clearly states Satan is defeated at Armageddon and bound for 1000 years.
Paul said that the dead in Christ will be raised at the last trumpet (1 Cor 15:51-54) and at Christ's second coming (1 Cor 15:22-23, 1 Thess 4:14-17) and that we will all be changed to have immortal bodies at that time. So, that clearly contradicts your understanding that it's an ongoing thing.

Saying Satan is bound for 1,000 years does not contradict a single verse in the Bible with the word 1000 or intent of 1000. It does not even contradict most amil interpretations. They are just spiritual applications. It would only contradict amil who declare it is fiction and does not exist.
It contradicts a great deal of scripture including John 5:28-29, Matthew 25:31-46 and 2 Peter 3:3-13.

Are you trying to press a point to argue against your own amil points?
Why do you ask such ridiculous questions? Do you actually think I will answer "Yes, I'm trying to argue against my own Amil points"? Are you for real?

If there is resurrection of the dead, prove to me it cannot be to a better body. Are dead people changed now or does God have to bring back their original shape? What shape? A baby? A child? Is it a specific time, like a day before, a year before? The whole point is; you are basing it on when change comes to a living being, ie literally at the Second Coming. Paul specifically declares they do not have to wait for the living period. They are literally in Paradise now. We did not prevent that. They have permanent bodies now. We did not prevent that. At the Second Coming they rise first. Yes, for 1990 years. We did not prevent that. That is not a blatant contradiction. That is pointing out the facts. The Second Coming is the, "then we, which are alive and remain shall be changed".

Since all in heaven now have not been prevented from the change, do they all return to a dead state, seconds before the Second Coming, to be resurrected first? Is that a second resurrection?
Please tell me when the last trumpet sounded or will sound. Because that is when Paul said we (the resurrected dead in Christ and those who are still alive at the time) will be changed and have immortal bodies.
 
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This has been one of my points as well. Amil makes no sense out of verse 4 in relation to verses 7-9. Per Amil the ones in verse 4 would be in heaven at the time, yet no one in verses 7-9 are surrounding the camp of saints in heaven, they are surrounding the camp of saints on earth, obviously. If those martyred saints in verse 4 play no part in verses 7-9, why even mention them at all?
I don't see why the souls John saw in heaven have to be the same as the camp of the saints on earth. He's showing that Christ reigns in heaven just as other scripture teaches (Eph 1:19-23).

In your view the souls John saw are bodily resurrected and then would have immortal bodies. What would be the point of anyone trying to attack people with immortal bodies? That would be ridiculous. Is what what you believe is portrayed in Rev 20:7-9?

Do you believe any of those who are in the camp of the saints are mortals?
 
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Spiritual Jew

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Matthew 25:31-32

31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, accompanied by all the angels, he will sit on his glorious throne.
32 All the nations will be assembled before him, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates sheep from goats.

Jesus is talking about His Second Coming.
All agree angels come to earth, no?
How do nations and goats get to the new earth or heaven, especially after we agree they all just died at Armageddon. Well, I do not agree the Second Coming is at Armageddon, but if you force it all in the same 60 seconds, how did you get from heaven to earth, back to heaven, back to the new earth in 60 seconds? This whole entourage is beamed all over that quick, and then tossed back into the Lake of Fire?
Why can't it all happen quickly? I believe this whole scene you're referencing is portrayed in Relation 20:9-15. How long after the fire comes down on those attacking the camp of the saints do you believe the judgment described following that occurs? Do you have trouble understanding how the judgment can take place right after what is described in Revelation 20:9?

Does your interpretation of Satan's binding as being at the Cross in Revelation 20 not contradict your Interpretation of Revelation 16 and 19 that Satan, the FP, and the beast were defeated at Armageddon, or did Satan time travel back to 30AD?
His binding is not the same event as him being cast into the lake of fire, so your question makes no sense. Do you not differentiate between him being bound and being cast into the lake of fire?

Is a plain reading of Scripture that hard to accept, without any interpretation?
It depends on whether or not it's meant to be read that way. Clearly, not all scripture is written in a literal, straightforward manner, right? You admitted yourself that I interpret 1 Corinthians 15:50-54 literally while you do not. We all interpret some scripture literally and some figuratively.

Do you ever change any plain reading of the text?
No, I don't. If a passage, such as 1 Cor 15:50-54, is meant to be read in a literal, straightforward manner then that's what I do.

If you only use interpretation, how do you avoid contradicting a plain text reading?
Interpretation involves determining whether any given text is meant to be understood literally or figuratively. So, all scripture has to be interpreted in that sense. You act as if you interpret all scripture literally as if it's all plain text. But, you know very well that it's not. So, what in the world is your point here?

What about not reading anything into the symbolism? Is that why I am not understood. I am too literal and not figurative enough?
You're hard to follow sometimes because of your private interpretations. You say things that I've never seen anyone say before.
 
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The 'sheep and goat' separation is plainly told as of the nations; NOT individuals, as is the GWT Judgment, after Jesus reigns for 1000 years.
The idea that Matthew 25:31-46 is about a judgment of nations is almost as ridiculous as thinking that verse 46 is speaking of a different time period than Matthew 25:31-45.

Do you understand that the sheep all "inherit the kingdom prepared for" them "from the foundation of the world"? How can that possibly apply to entire nations? It can't! Impossible! God has a kingdom prepared only for believers. No nation is comprised entirely of believers or entirely of unbelievers.

Jesus will say to the goats "Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels". How can that apply to entire nations? It can't! Impossible! That is a totally ridiculous notion. Only unbelievers, those whose names are not written in the book of life, will be cast "into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels".

Matthew 25:31-46 is clearly a reference to the day of judgment which is for individuals. The concept of a day of judgment for nations is not taught anywhere in scripture.

The day of judgment is clearly for individuals, not nations:

Romans 14:10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. 11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God. 12 So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.

The day of judgment portrayed in Matthew 25:31-46 is the same day Paul referred to here:

Acts 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: 31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

Scripture only teaches that there will be one judgment day, not two.
 
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