WHEN WAS CHRIST CRUCIFIED?

Yeshua HaDerekh said:

Yes, not complicated at all! Nisan 14th...the day of crucifixion...glad you agree!

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I didn't say it was the 14th. Don't put words in my mouth. It was Friday the 15th. That has been my consistent argument.

Yeshua HaDerekh said:

2nd Temple Judaism 101

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That's not a source. The Talmud teaches that during the second temple period, most Jews would fast until it was time for the feast.

Yeshua HaDerekh said:

You obviously don't, otherwise you would agree. You won't answer the questions because they destroy your theory. Now you are just being silly because your theory is wrong...

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Which questions would you like answered that I have not answered? I said I wouldn't argue with you. And that's because you refuse to acknowledge two plain scriptures.

It should also be stated that my position is not a "theory." Mark and Luke both conspicuously state that the afternoon prior to the last supper was the first day of unleavened bread, when the passover was killed. That means it was the 14th. That's not an opinion, a theory, a hypothesis, or anything similar. It's a fact of scripture.

Yeshua HaDerekh said:

You obviously don't, otherwise you would agree. You won't answer the questions because they destroy your theory. Now you are just being silly because your theory is wrong...

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Now ... speaking of questions left unanswered:

Mark 14:12 - And the first day of unleavened bread, when they killed the passover, his disciples said unto him, Where wilt thou that we go and prepare that thou mayest eat the passover?

Luke 22:7-8 - Then came the day of unleavened bread, when the passover must be killed. And he sent Peter and John, saying, Go and prepare us the passover, that we may eat.

Was it, or was it not, the first day of unleavened bread, when the passover must be killed, when the disciples came to Jesus and asked him where he wanted them to prepare the passover?

If you can't, or won't, answer that, then stop arguing with me. My patience is honestly starting to wear thin with you. The way intellectual discussion works is: A person makes an argument. The other person rebuts the argument. The two then go back and forth, acknowledging valid points and eliminating invalid ones until a true conclusion emerges.

You keep making points. I keep answering them. I make points. You ignore them and make your already answered points all over again and tell me how my theory is falling apart.

If you want to continue to discuss the topic, it is incumbent upon you to answer my points. As far as I can tell, you can't answer them. That's why you ignore them. But ignoring points of fact don't make those facts go away.

The afternoon preceding the last supper was the first day of unleavened bread according to three Gospel authors. That same afternoon was the day when the lambs were slain according to two Gospel authors. Two disciples actually went and made ready the passover according to three Gospel authors.

You cannot ignore these facts. They require an answer if you are going to disprove my position. Until you do, I'm right. I'm right because three Gospels say I am.

BobRyan said:

On the 14th - at the time that the Passover Lamb was to be slain

Now before the Feast of the Passover, when . . . [Yahushua] knew that His hour had come that He should depart from this world to the Father, having loved His own who were in the world, He loved them to the end. And supper being ended . . . [Yahushua] began to wash the disciples’ feet . . . .” (John 13:1, 2, 5, NKJV)

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AFrazier said:

I see. Another one. So John's single vague statement,

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Not vague. Very specific.

Christ was crucified at the time the Passover lamb was to be slain on the evening of the 14th. So it was not going to be possible to be at the last Supper with the disciples then -- it had to be the day before.

BobRyan said:

. And we'll just ignore the other three gospels

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On the contrary paying attention to all of them without throwing any of the details out.

They celebrated the Passover early - Thursday night is still "the 14th" and Friday is also the 14 until sunset.

Therefore a Thursday night Lord's Supper event fits perfectly with ALL the accounts.

BobRyan said:

Not vague. Very specific.

Christ was crucified at the time the Passover lamb was to be slain on the evening of the 14th. So it was not going to be possible to be at the last Supper with the disciples then -- it had to be the day before.



On the contrary paying attention to all of them without throwing any of the details out.

They celebrated the Passover early - Thursday night is still "the 14th" and Friday is also the 14 until sunset.

Therefore a Thursday night Lord's Supper event fits perfectly with ALL the accounts.

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I understand your argument. I understood it already. But it is erroneous.

According to Mark and Luke, the afternoon leading up to the last supper was the first day of unleavened bread, when the passover was killed. Two disciples went and "made ready the passover." It was the passover meal, and the day of passover. It would have been illegal to have an early passover.

It is more realistic to recognize that John's statements can be understood harmoniously with the Synoptics rather than the other way around. You can't let theology dictate history. Jesus died on the 15th, despite any symbolism his death may have represented relative to the passover. Jesus was also put on display with Barabbas and led out of town with the sins of the people. Jesus wasn't bled dry or roasted. Not every detail of the symbolism is going to be perfect. He was the passover. But he was also the scapegoat. He died as the passover, but not on the passover.

I know it doesn't fit with what many want to believe. But it is what it is. On the first day of unleavened bread, when the passover was slain, the disciples came to him and asked where they should prepare so he could eat the passover. He sent two of his disciples to a man, whom they followed. They secured the guest room. And the two made ready the passover.

That's what the gospels say. Not once does it ever say that they had an early passover meal. Not once does it say that it was a meal other than the passover. These are assumptions to make the Synoptic accounts work within the framework of the John interpretation. In actual fact, John is consistent with the Synoptics. It is the lack of research on the part of modern people that has this issue confused.

AFrazier said:

According to Mark and Luke, the afternoon leading up to the last supper was the first day of unleavened bread,

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Because it was a custom to refer to both Passover and unleavened bread as "the feast of unleavened bread'.

https://www.sabbath.org/index.cfm/fuseaction/Library.CGGWeekly/ID/741/Is-Passover-on-First-Day-Unleavened-Bread-Part-One.htm#:~:text=Another critical point is that, despite Passover and,Abib 14-21 (Passover plus Unleavened Bread; Luke 22:1).

"Encyclopaedia Judaica confirms:

• "The feast of Passover consists of two parts: The Passover ceremony and the Feast of Unleavened Bread. Originally, both parts existed separately; but at the beginning of the [Babylonian] exile they were combined" (vol. 13, p. 169)."

"At the time of Jesus Christ, this mixture was on full display. Philo of Alexandria, in De Vita Mosis, notes that in the early first century, the Passover was not strictly a Temple-kept event, but one in which people also killed their own lambs without help from the priests. In his Wars of the Jews, Flavius Josephus records that in 4 BC over 250,000 lambs were sacrificed for Passover. However, given the limited space of the Temple environs and the fact that Jewish tradition (not the Word of God) held that the lambs were to be slain within a two-hour time slot (from the ninth to the eleventh hour, or 3:00-5:00 pm), it is readily apparent that not all of those lambs could have been sacrificed at the Temple. In fact, Joachim Jeremias, in Jerusalem in the Times of Jesus, calculates that the three courses of priests on duty could slay only 18,000 lambs during those two hours. Josephus records that the rest of the lambs—a far greater number—were slain by individuals at their own homes.

"Another critical point is that, despite Passover and the Feast of Unleavened Bread being distinct festivals, they were commonly grouped together and simply called "Passover." Thus, when the gospel writers mention "Passover," it can sometimes refer to the Passover sacrifice itself (Matthew 26:17; Mark 14:12), the day when the sacrifice was made (Mark 14:1), or the whole eight-day period of Abib 14-21 (Passover plus Unleavened Bread; Luke 22:1).

"That the disciples inquired about making preparations—and later that night assumed Judas would be purchasing something "for the feast" (John 13:29)—shows that the time in question could not have been the first day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread. Why? That day is a holy convocation on which no customary work is to be done (Leviticus 23:7), if God's instructions are to remain unbroken."

AFrazier said:

I didn't say it was the 14th. Don't put words in my mouth. It was Friday the 15th. That has been my consistent argument.

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Wrong...John says it was the 14th

AFrazier said:

That's not a source. The Talmud teaches that during the second temple period, most Jews would fast until it was time for the feast.

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The firstborn would...

BobRyan said:

Because it was a custom to refer to both Passover and unleavened bread as "the feast of unleavened bread'.

https://www.sabbath.org/index.cfm/fuseaction/Library.CGGWeekly/ID/741/Is-Passover-on-First-Day-Unleavened-Bread-Part-One.htm#:~:text=Another critical point is that, despite Passover and,Abib 14-21 (Passover plus Unleavened Bread; Luke 22:1).

"Encyclopaedia Judaica confirms:

• "The feast of Passover consists of two parts: The Passover ceremony and the Feast of Unleavened Bread. Originally, both parts existed separately; but at the beginning of the [Babylonian] exile they were combined" (vol. 13, p. 169)."

"At the time of Jesus Christ, this mixture was on full display. Philo of Alexandria, in De Vita Mosis, notes that in the early first century, the Passover was not strictly a Temple-kept event, but one in which people also killed their own lambs without help from the priests. In his Wars of the Jews, Flavius Josephus records that in 4 BC over 250,000 lambs were sacrificed for Passover. However, given the limited space of the Temple environs and the fact that Jewish tradition (not the Word of God) held that the lambs were to be slain within a two-hour time slot (from the ninth to the eleventh hour, or 3:00-5:00 pm), it is readily apparent that not all of those lambs could have been sacrificed at the Temple. In fact, Joachim Jeremias, in Jerusalem in the Times of Jesus, calculates that the three courses of priests on duty could slay only 18,000 lambs during those two hours. Josephus records that the rest of the lambs—a far greater number—were slain by individuals at their own homes.

"Another critical point is that, despite Passover and the Feast of Unleavened Bread being distinct festivals, they were commonly grouped together and simply called "Passover." Thus, when the gospel writers mention "Passover," it can sometimes refer to the Passover sacrifice itself (Matthew 26:17; Mark 14:12), the day when the sacrifice was made (Mark 14:1), or the whole eight-day period of Abib 14-21 (Passover plus Unleavened Bread; Luke 22:1).

"That the disciples inquired about making preparations—and later that night assumed Judas would be purchasing something "for the feast" (John 13:29)—shows that the time in question could not have been the first day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread. Why? That day is a holy convocation on which no customary work is to be done (Leviticus 23:7), if God's instructions are to remain unbroken."

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1) Mark and Luke don't say that it was the day of the Feast of unleavened bread. It was the first day of unleavened bread, which is the 14th. That's the day when all leaven had to be removed and burned.

2) I know of no passage by Josephus that says people killed their own passover lambs at home.

3) Mark and Luke didn't refer to that day as the passover. They specifically referred to it as the day when the passover was killed.

4) All twenty-four courses of priests were on duty during a major festival.

5) When Josephus mentions 250,000 lambs being sacrificed, these figures came from the temple records.

6) The point of Judas is of no matter. Something may have been forgotten, or they may have needed more of something that was running out. They also speculated that he may have been sent to give something to the poor. They didn't know where he was going or why. It doesn't disprove that it was the passover, particularly when the words being used for feast are consistent with a public feast.

Yeshua HaDerekh said:

Wrong...John says it was the 14th

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No he doesn't. You're mistaken.

Yeshua HaDerekh said:

Wrong...John says it was the 14th

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Now stop dissembling and answer the passages I've presented you time and again. Time to stop this nonsense. Answer them, or stop arguing with me.

AFrazier said:

I understand your argument. I understood it already. But it is erroneous.

According to Mark and Luke, the afternoon leading up to the last supper was the first day of unleavened bread, when the passover was killed. Two disciples went and "made ready the passover." It was the passover meal, and the day of passover. It would have been illegal to have an early passover.

It is more realistic to recognize that John's statements can be understood harmoniously with the Synoptics rather than the other way around. You can't let theology dictate history. Jesus died on the 15th, despite any symbolism his death may have represented relative to the passover. Jesus was also put on display with Barabbas and led out of town with the sins of the people. Jesus wasn't bled dry or roasted. Not every detail of the symbolism is going to be perfect. He was the passover. But he was also the scapegoat. He died as the passover, but not on the passover.

I know it doesn't fit with what many want to believe. But it is what it is. On the first day of unleavened bread, when the passover was slain, the disciples came to him and asked where they should prepare so he could eat the passover. He sent two of his disciples to a man, whom they followed. They secured the guest room. And the two made ready the passover.

That's what the gospels say. Not once does it ever say that they had an early passover meal. Not once does it say that it was a meal other than the passover. These are assumptions to make the Synoptic accounts work within the framework of the John interpretation. In actual fact, John is consistent with the Synoptics. It is the lack of research on the part of modern people that has this issue confused.

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I guess you have not read scripture? The 14th is Passover, when the lambs were killed, not the 15th, which is the 1st of unleavened. I tried to explain all this to you and so did Bob, but you just keep to your theory. I never said they had an early Passover meal, I told you it was a Seudah HaMafsekhet Pesakh (because it was on the 14th, it could be called that). All Seudot have elements of the feast after it. He was THE LAMB OF GOD...

AFrazier said:

Now stop dissembling and answer the passages I've presented you time and again. Time to stop this nonsense. Answer them, or stop arguing with me.

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I already have and so have a number of other posters...

AFrazier said:

No he doesn't. You're mistaken.

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Yes he does, it is not even debatable!

Now before the feast of the Passover, when Yeshua knew that His hour had come that He should depart from this world to the Father, having loved His own who were in the world, He loved them to the end. And supper being ended, the devil having already put it into the heart of Judas Iscariot, Simon's son, to betray Him...

Peter then denied again; and immediately a rooster crowed. Then they led Yeshua from Caiaphas to the Praetorium, and it was early morning. But they themselves did not go into the Praetorium, lest they should be defiled, but that they might eat the Passover.

Now it was the Preparation Day of the Passover, and about the sixth hour. And he said to the Jews, "Behold your King!" But they cried out, "Away with Him, away with Him! Crucify Him!" Pilate said to them, "Shall I crucify your King?" The chief priests answered, "We have no king but Caesar!" Then he delivered Him to them to be crucified. So they took Yeshua and led Him away.

But you have a custom that I should release someone to you at the Passover. Do you therefore want me to release to you the King of the Jews?

Mark says: Now when evening had come, because it was the Preparation Day, that is, the day before the Sabbath, Joseph of Arimathea, a prominent council member, who was himself waiting for the kingdom of God, coming and taking courage, went in to Pilate and asked for the body of Yeshua.

Luke says: This man went to Pilate and asked for the body of Yeshua. Then he took it down, wrapped it in linen, and laid it in a tomb that was hewn out of the rock, where no one had ever lain before. That day was the Preparation, and the Sabbath drew near.

On the fourteenth day of the first month at twilight is the Lord's Passover. And on the fifteenth day of the same month is the Feast of Unleavened Bread to the Lord; seven days you must eat unleavened bread. On the first day you shall have a holy convocation; you shall do no customary work on it.

AFrazier said:

1) Mark and Luke don't say that it was the day of the Feast of unleavened bread. It was the first day of unleavened bread, which is the 14th. That's the day when all leaven had to be removed and burned.

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The day the lambs were killed was the 14th...Pesakh. The 1st of unleavened is the 15th. Read Leviticus and Deuteronomy...

AFrazier said:

Mark 14:12 - And the first day of unleavened bread, when they killed the passover, his disciples said unto him, Where wilt thou that we go and prepare that thou mayest eat the passover?

Luke 22:7-8 - Then came the day of unleavened bread, when the passover must be killed. And he sent Peter and John, saying, Go and prepare us the passover, that we may eat.

You: "The Passover lamb was killed in the late afternoon of Nisan 14, following the regular evening sacrifice, and eaten, with unleavened bread, after sunset that same night, during the early hours of Nisan 15"

I don't have a contradiction. According to the direct statements of two Gospel authors, the afternoon preceding the last supper was the first day of unleavened bread, when the passover was killed, which you and I both agree was late in the afternoon of the 14th of Nisan as the 15th approached at sunset.

The problem is not with the Synoptics. The problem is with the interpretation being applied to John. And I did give answers to those passages if you take the time to read them. Jesus died the next day, which would have been the 15th. You can't let theology dictate history. The Gospels are plain as day which date he died on.

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I believe your scripture proofs dear friend have been directly dealt with in some detail already to show your interpretation of them is not a correct one in post # 46. All you have done here is to repeat what you posted the first time without addressing anything shared with you through the scriptures from both the old and new testament that prove your interpretation is in contradiction with the scriptures shown in previous posts.

Actually, you do indeed have a direct contradiction of the scriptures. Your interpretation of the synoptic gospel scriptures you have provided above disagree with both the scriptures of the old testament as shown in the first linked post (post # 46) from Numbers 28:16:25; Exodus 12:2-11; Leviticus 23:4-8. For example, your interpretation has the sacrifice of Jesus occurring on Nisan 15 as opposed to the preparation of the feasts on Nisan 14. You are in contradiction here because as pointed out in post # 46 through the scriptures, the preparation of the Feasts (Nissan 14 which is day 1/8) is not the same as partaking of the Feasts which start on Nisan 15.

All the scriptures you have provided are in harmony with what has been shared with you here already. This is also exactly what John is saying in John 13:1-5 which show that the events of his crucifixion was a day before the feast of Passover putting the time period to day 1/8 which is the beginning of the preparation of the Feasts of Passover and Unleavened bread (Nisan 14).

Even Paul agrees with what is being shared with you here in 1 Corinthians 5:7-8 where he says Christ our Passover is sacrificed for us agreeing with the scriptures dates of Nisan 14 not Nisan 15 where you have it.

You of course are free to believe as you wish and it is always good to have a friendly discussion. Of course we will have to agree to disagree for the reasons already shown through the scriptures. I am sure we can continue in friendly discussion even if we do not agree on some things.

AFrazier said:

Now stop dissembling and answer the passages I've presented you time and again. Time to stop this nonsense. Answer them, or stop arguing with me.

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Just wondering if it would really make any difference? I have already answered the scriptures you believe support your position earlier tracing old and new testament origins showing that the proof scriptures you provide do not agree with your interpretation of them. Your response was to simply ignore the content and scriptures that address your interpretation of the scriptures you shared with us that you believe support your position. (see post # 46).

AFrazier said:

Now ... speaking of questions left unanswered:

Mark 14:12 - And the first day of unleavened bread, when they killed the passover, his disciples said unto him, Where wilt thou that we go and prepare that thou mayest eat the passover?

Luke 22:7-8 - Then came the day of unleavened bread, when the passover must be killed. And he sent Peter and John, saying, Go and prepare us the passover, that we may eat.

Was it, or was it not, the first day of unleavened bread, when the passover must be killed, when the disciples came to Jesus and asked him where he wanted them to prepare the passover?

The afternoon preceding the last supper was the first day of unleavened bread according to three Gospel authors. That same afternoon was the day when the lambs were slain according to two Gospel authors. Two disciples actually went and made ready the passover according to three Gospel authors.

You cannot ignore these facts. They require an answer if you are going to disprove my position. Until you do, I'm right. I'm right because three Gospels say I am.

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All of this has already been explained to you. The entire feast is sometimes called Passover. The Passover is on the 14th, when the lambs were killed, not the 15th, which is the 1st day of unleavened. John says you are wrong too. And Paul. And Leviticus and Deuteronomy...

AFrazier said:

Which questions would you like answered that I have not answered? I said I wouldn't argue with you. And that's because you refuse to acknowledge two plain scriptures.

It should also be stated that my position is not a "theory." Mark and Luke both conspicuously state that the afternoon prior to the last supper was the first day of unleavened bread, when the passover was killed. That means it was the 14th. That's not an opinion, a theory, a hypothesis, or anything similar. It's a fact of scripture.

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The Passover was killed on the 14th, ON Passover, NOT on the 15th which is the 1st of unleavened. Any Jew will tell you this.