Abomination of Desolation in Luke?

Douggg said:

I was referring to the fact that neither "forty two" nor "42" months is found in Revelation 12.

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Joseph takes the woman and the man-child to Egypt to escape Herod

Mat 2:13 And when they were departed, behold, the angel of the Lord appeareth to Joseph in a dream, saying, Arise, and take the young child and his mother, and flee into Egypt, and be thou there until I bring thee word: for Herod will seek the young child to destroy him.
Mat 2:14 When he arose, he took the young child and his mother by night, and departed into Egypt:
Mat 2:15 And was there until the death of Herod: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Out of Egypt have I called my son.


Herod Kills the Children

Mat 2:16 Then Herod, when he saw that he was mocked of the wise men, was exceeding wroth, and sent forth, and slew all the children that were in Bethlehem, and in all the coasts thereof, from two years old and under, according to the time which he had diligently enquired of the wise men.
Mat 2:17 Then was fulfilled that which was spoken by Jeremy the prophet, saying,
Mat 2:18 In Rama was there a voice heard, lamentation, and weeping, and great mourning, Rachel weeping for her children, and would not be comforted, because they are not.




Rev 12:4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
Rev 12:5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.
Rev 12:6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.



The Hebrew calendar was broken into 7 year segments.
Half of that segment is 3 1/2 years, which is found in many places in scripture.
There were also periodic corrections needed to keep the calendar in sequence with the growing season.
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Timtofly said:

BTW: 42 months is a time, times, and a half. 12 months, 24 months, 6 months.

3.5 is the same time, times, and a half just 1 year, 2 years, 6 months.

1260 days is time, times, half a time. 360 days, 720 days, and 180 days.

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At least this part makes good mathematical sense, thus no disagreements on my part.

Timtofly said:

3500 years is 1000 years, 2000 years, and 500 years.

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Can't say the same for this part, though. I don't have a clue as to what you are going on about here, mathematically or otherwise, that "3500 years is 1000 years, 2000 years, and 500 years". I don't think anyone does, including Amils, though you would think Amils should be able to at least relate to something like this since they too have a thousand years meaning everything under the sun except for a literal thousand years of course.

DavidPT said:

I don't think anyone does, including Amils, though you would think Amils should be able to at least relate to something like this since they too have a thousand years meaning everything under the sun except for a literal thousand years of course.

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We also do not think Satan is a giant flying lizard.

We can also find an angel coming down from heaven with a key to unlock the pit in Revelation 9:1-2.

We also find the time of the judgment of the dead in Revelation 11:18.

We also cannot find any mortals left alive on the planet at the end of Matthew 25:31-46.

We can also read what Paul said in 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10 about the fire coming at the return of Christ, and the fire is found at the end of Revelation 20.

We can also read what Paul said about the judgment of the living and the dead in 2 Timothy 4:1, and the judgment of the dead is at the end of Revelation 20.

And you think we have problems...


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BABerean2 said:

We also do not think Satan is a giant flying lizard.

We can also find an angel coming down from heaven with a key to unlock the pit in Revelation 9:1-2.

We also find the time of the judgment of the dead in Revelation 11:18.

We also cannot find any mortals left alive on the planet at the end of Matthew 25:31-46.

We can also read what Paul said in 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10 about the fire coming at the return of Christ, and the fire is found at the end of Revelation 20.

We can also read what Paul said about the judgment of the living and the dead in 2 Timothy 4:1, and the judgment of the dead is at the end of Revelation 20.

And you think we have problems...


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Neither do I think satan is a flying lizard, and I'm not even Amil. Your point is moot. That aside, after reading some of your latest posts in this thread, I am getting the impression that you perhaps think satan has been bound in the pit ever since the early days recorded in Genesis. If that doesn't equate that the thousand years are meaning everything under the sun, I don't know what does if not that?

DavidPT said:

That aside, after reading some of your latest posts in this thread, I am getting the impression that you perhaps think satan has been bound in the pit ever since the early days recorded in Genesis.

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Where is this hole in the ground "pit" you are talking about?

Do I think Satan and the angels who followed him were cast out of heaven in the Book of Genesis?
Yes.


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jhwatts said:

Three very detailed pieces of scripture, each with symbolic and literal discussion about Eden and each contain references to Assyria or the inhabitants of Assyria. Three relating pieces of scripture seems like a decent Bibical basis to me to solidify my claim. To ignore that to fit ones theology seem like bad hermeneutics to me.

Last but not least look at Isaiah 14:4, it's a proverb against the king of Babylon and so he's not in it, he is symbolic of whats in the proverb. It's all about context.

Isaiah 14:4
4 That thou shalt take up this proverb against the king of Babylon, and say, How hath the oppressor ceased! the golden city ceased!

The statement of the Garden of Eden going to heaven is pure speculation on your part no scriptural basis what so ever. How did you come up with that idea

Who is Satan in Greek mythology?

"Anyone claiming it was ruled by Satan is lying" although I dont think that, how do you know that he didn't rule Eden?

Your statement about the rivers of Eden is a broad generalization and saying the Mediterranean didnt exist is speculation on your part.

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Where the Garden of Eden went is only speculation by any one.

Satan as the ruler of sheol is not Greek mythology.

The Mediterranean as not existing is a scientific fact. It is a "proven" theory that it came and went at least 7 times. The when scientists claim is fiction.

BABerean2 said:

Are you predicting the day of the Second Coming of Christ?

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No.

DavidPT said:

At least this part makes good mathematical sense, thus no disagreements on my part.
Can't say the same for this part, though. I don't have a clue as to what you are going on about here, mathematically or otherwise, that "3500 years is 1000 years, 2000 years, and 500 years". I don't think anyone does, including Amils, though you would think Amils should be able to at least relate to something like this since they too have a thousand years meaning everything under the sun except for a literal thousand years of course.

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From Daniel to Christ was half a time. Roughly 500 years. From 30AD to this year is 1990 years. 10 years will be 2000, 2 times. The millennium will be the time, 1000 years. Then the NHNE.

Timtofly said:

From Daniel to Christ was half a time. Roughly 500 years. From 30AD to this year is 1990 years. 10 years will be 2000, 2 times. The millennium will be the time, 1000 years. Then the NHNE.

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I think I at least now grasp what you are meaning. One problem I see though, it's not 1/2 of time, times, and time, it is time, times, and 1/2 of time--yet in your proposal you have 1/2 of time occuring first rather than last, IOW you have the entire formula in reverse. You have 500 years(1/2 of time) + 2000 years(times) + 1000 years(time)----when it instead should be---1000 years(time) + 2000 years(times) + 500 years(1/2 of time)

DavidPT said:

I think I at least now grasp what you are meaning. One problem I see though, it's not 1/2 of time, times, and time, it is time, times, and 1/2 of time--yet in your proposal you have 1/2 of time occuring first rather than last, IOW you have the entire formula in reverse. You have 500 years(1/2 of time) + 2000 years(times) + 1000 years(time)----when it instead should be---1000 years(time) + 2000 years(times) + 500 years(1/2 of time)

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Well it was not 1000 years between Daniel and Christ. Hebrew is read backwards, and to those with dyslexia it does not matter.

Timtofly said:

Well it was not 1000 years between Daniel and Christ. Hebrew is read backwards, and to those with dyslexia it does not matter.

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If nothing else, 3500 at least is a multiple of 3.5, I'll give you that.

Spiritual Jew said:

What is your understanding of the first resurrection and what is your understanding of who takes part in the first resurrection and who reigns with Him?

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the first resurrection is Christ's, and those that partake in it are "raised up" and seated with Christ in the heavenlies.

Ephesians 2:6 God raised us up with Christ and seated us with Him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus

Spiritual Jew said:

I never said that you did. But you made mention of the promise to David 1,000 years earlier. I don't see how that relates to the thousand years of Revelation 20.

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Again

The best explanation I have found so far as to why it is specifically the 1,000 years and not 500 or 2,000 or 10,000 or 10,000 x 10,000 or some other number, comes from catholic traditional amil theologian steve Hahn. Hahn muses that it is called the 1,000 years because it points to the promise made to David in regards to Christ, literally 1,000 years prior.

Spiritual Jew said:

Here you go again with claiming he was bound from persecuting. No, he was not. It does not say he is bound from persecuting. Don't add what isn't there. It says he was bound from "deceiving the nations".

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Again, never claimed he was bound from persecuting. I stated he was bound and cast out TO persecute. This is the polar opposite of your conclusion of what I said. Please ask clarifying questions before jumping to polar opposite conclusions of what I stated.

Spiritual Jew said:

In terms of him keeping the world in spiritual darkness as he was able to do before Christ's death and resurection, yes. But, he will be given a little season in the future where he is no longer restrained, and, again, I believe Paul alludes to that in 2 Thessalonians 2.

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Paul mentions nothing of satan being bound nor a little season for satan in 2 thessalonians 2.

Spiritual Jew said:

I believe it will be because of the mass falling away from the faith that the gospel will be severely weakened. I'm already seeing this today where the church is very weak and not having the kind of impact on the world that it should. I have seen a continual increase in wickedness in the world as time goes on.

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The falling away was an event to occur as a sign prior to the destruction of Jerusalem.

Matthew 24:10 At that time many will fall away and will betray and hate one another,

John confirms it was happening the 1st century, that is how they knew it was the last hour.

1 john 2:18-19 Children, it is the last hour; and just as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, so now many antichrists have appeared. This is how we know it is the last hour. 19They went out from us, but they did not belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us. But their departure made it clear that none of them belonged to us.

Spiritual Jew said:

None of that means he was able to stop the gospel from going out into the whole world giving the hope of forgiveness of sins and eternal life that the world never had before.

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agreed.

Spiritual Jew said:

I never said that His reign is limited to the thousand years. He will reign forever, of course, just like it says in Isaiah 9:6-7. He will deliver the kingdom to the Father when He returns (1 Cor 15:24, Matt 13:40-43), but He will then reign with the Father forever from that point on.

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You said this:

It speaks of Christ reigning for a thousand years, so the thousand years began when He began to reign and not 1000 years prior.

So thank you for clarifying.

Spiritual Jew said:

I never said that you did. But you made mention of the promise to David 1,000 years earlier. I don't see how that relates to the thousand years of Revelation 20.

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You said this:

"so the thousand years began when He began to reign and not 1000 years prior."

I was clarifying that I do not believe it refers to 1,000 years prior.

Spiritual Jew said:

That means the 1000 years is ongoing, but you believe it ended long ago (or you believe it isn't an actual time period - honestly, I can't make sense of your view).

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not ended. Fulfilled with ongoing results of said fulfillment.

Spiritual Jew said:

but I disagree with your understanding that Satan being cast out of heaven is related to him being loosed. I don't agree with that at all.

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The gospels and epistles declare that satan was cast out, coming, hindering, persecuting, and deceiving already in the first century. I relate this to his "little season" of revelation 20. I interpret revelation through the lens of the gospels and not the other way around as you seem to do.

claninja said:

the first resurrection is Christ's, and those that partake in it are "raised up" and seated with Christ in the heavenlies.

Ephesians 2:6 God raised us up with Christ and seated us with Him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus

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Agree.

Again

The best explanation I have found so far as to why it is specifically the 1,000 years and not 500 or 2,000 or 10,000 or 10,000 x 10,000 or some other number, comes from catholic traditional amil theologian steve Hahn. Hahn muses that it is called the 1,000 years because it points to the promise made to David in regards to Christ, literally 1,000 years prior.

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But that is talking about 1,000 years prior to Christ reigning. The thousand years of Revelation 20 refers to the beginning of His reign. I just can't make any sense at all out of what you're saying here.

Again, never claimed he was bound from persecuting. I stated he was bound and cast out TO persecute. This is the polar opposite of your conclusion of what I said. Please ask clarifying questions before jumping to polar opposite conclusions of what I stated.

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You clearly said he was loosed to deceive and persecute. That strongly implied to me that you believe he was bound from deceiving and persecuting before being loosed. So, that's why it didn't occur to me to ask a clarifying question.

Paul mentions nothing of satan being bound nor a little season for satan in 2 thessalonians 2.

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Does it have to be specifically mentioned for that to be the case? You've accused me of believing things like premils before, but that's how you come across to me sometimes. They often will say 2 passages can't be related just because they don't have all the same details or don't spell everything out in each passage.

The falling away was an event to occur as a sign prior to the destruction of Jerusalem.

Matthew 24:10 At that time many will fall away and will betray and hate one another,

John confirms it was happening the 1st century, that is how they knew it was the last hour.

1 john 2:18-19 Children, it is the last hour; and just as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, so now many antichrists have appeared. This is how we know it is the last hour. 19They went out from us, but they did not belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us. But their departure made it clear that none of them belonged to us.

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I disagree completely. Paul said the falling away would occur before the second coming and our being gathered to Him which is the same event he mentioned in 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 where he said that when He comes the dead in Christ will all be raised and we will all be caught up to meet Him in the air. That has clearly not yet happened.

not ended. Fulfilled with ongoing results of said fulfillment.

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You're saying you think the thousand years was already fulfilled with ongoing results? That makes no sense to me whatsoever. Is that the typical preterist understanding of the thousand years?

The gospels and epistles declare that satan was cast out, coming, hindering, persecuting, and deceiving already in the first century. I relate this to his "little season" of revelation 20. I interpret revelation through the lens of the gospels and not the other way around as you seem to do.

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That couldn't be further from the truth, so your statement here shows that you're not paying close attention to what I'm saying. I interpret Revelation 20 based on my understanding of other New Testament scripture and I have said so many times. That is the problem with premils. They interpret the rest of scripture in light of Revelation 20. I've already explained to you more than once my understanding of what he was bound from doing and I used other New Testament scripture to back up my view.

grafted branch said:

Matthew 24 and Mark 13 both use the term abomination of desolation; however that specific term isn’t used in Luke 21.

Trying to harmonize these chapters by equating Jerusalem surrounded by armies with the abomination of desolation presents some issues.

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I really do not have any issues with it.


I believe Jesus made this discourse once, when he left the temple for the last time.
He actually gave this discourse privately to Andrew , Peter , James and John.

Mk 13
13 As He was going out of the temple, one of His disciples *said to Him, “Teacher, look! What wonderful stones and what wonderful buildings!” 2 And Jesus said to him, “Do you see these great buildings? Not one stone will be left upon another, which will not be torn down.”

3 As He was sitting on the Mount of Olives opposite the temple, Peter, James, John, and Andrew were questioning Him privately, 4 “Tell us, when will these things come about, and what will be the sign when all these things are going to be fulfilled?”



So Matthew , Mark and Luke all got this information from either one of them 4 , and it wouldn't have mattered which one.

Luke more than likely went to all 4 in this private conversation, as his account is said to be thorough.


Lk 1
Since many have undertaken to compile an account of the things accomplished among us, 2 just as they were handed down to us by those who from the beginning were eyewitnesses and servants of the word, 3 it seemed fitting to me as well, having investigated everything carefully from the beginning, to write it out for you in an orderly sequence, most excellent Theophilus; 4 so that you may know the exact truth about the things you have been taught.


The exact truth concerning this discourse is beautifully clarified by Luke.

DavidPT said:

If nothing else, 3500 at least is a multiple of 3.5, I'll give you that.

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It was not 3 days between Daniel and Christ, but sure, the shortest length in the number still occurs between Daniel and Christ, no matter how you split it up. What is .5? Is it still not half a time?

Spiritual Jew said:

That couldn't be further from the truth, so your statement here shows that you're not paying close attention to what I'm saying. I interpret Revelation 20 based on my understanding of other New Testament scripture and I have said so many times. That is the problem with premils. They interpret the rest of scripture in light of Revelation 20. I've already explained to you more than once my understanding of what he was bound from doing and I used other New Testament scripture to back up my view.

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Not me, I use 2 Peter 3, but not to the point it is forced to contradict every single scripture that explains events in more detail. You may not want to admit a single text, but you do seem to "destroy" "refute" all text that disagrees with 2 Peter 3.

jeffweedaman said:

So Matthew , Mark and Luke all got this information from either one of them 4 , and it wouldn't have mattered which one.

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Who is Mark?

Timtofly said:

Who is Mark?

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Im not surprised that you do not know who he is...lol.

Seriously , what are you asking?