Matt5

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Out of curiosity, who do y'all think the Antichrist will be? I've been studying the evidence for quite some time, and have come to the conclusion that the Antichrist will be a specific Muslim figure, but I would like to know what y'all think and why.

Stunning research suggest the Mahdi and the Antichrist may actually be the same - YouTube

From the description:
The Bible predicts in the last days a charismatic leader will establish a global following in the name of peace. Islamic prophecy also predicts that a man will rise up to lead the nations, pledging to usher in an era of peace. Islam's savior is called the Mahdi. However, the man in the Bible is the Antichrist.Stunning research and analysis suggest the Mahdi and the Antichrist may actually be one and the same.

My comment:
The Mahdi is accompanied by the Islamic Jesus, aka false prophet.

The real Jesus shows up a few years later.
 
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Berean Tim

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I'm not reading it in, I'm reading the text as written.
1 John 2:18 is entirely parallel to 2 John 4:3
It is the EXACT same teaching of the coming (and arrival) of the exact same spirit.

John is not describing two separate singular antichrists that "they heard was coming"

Parallel passages can not be interpreted to have polar opposite meanings.

John simply clarifies 1Jn2:18 in 2Jn4:3.

As John infallibly testifies to his flocks, The singular antichrist that they had heard was coming, is an IT, not a He, and he also teaches IT had already come. Nowhere in John's epistles does he teach that antichrist is/was a singular human being.
Not even anywhere.

No amount of your gymnastics can change what is plainly written.



Nowhere in scripture are we taught to apply the name antichrist to the beast of Revelation. It is YOU my friend who are reading into the text that which does not exist within it's pages.
Just a quick look, the word (it) is not in the greek text. It was placed there by the KJV translators. Hardly sufficient to build a doctrine on.
In your opinion what was exactly was captured and throw alive into the LoF ?
What of Revelation 13:This calls for wisdom: let the one who has understanding calculate the number of the beast, for it is the number of a man, and his number is 666. Note the ESV translators use (His) as the pronoun because of the use of (Man)

Strongs # 444
anthrópos: a man, human, mankind
Original Word: ἄνθρωπος, ου, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: anthrópos
Phonetic Spelling: (anth'-ro-pos)
Definition: a man, human, mankind
Usage: a man, one of the human race.

So there it is.
 
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Berean Tim

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1 John 2:17-19

17 And the world is passing away, along with its desires. But whoever does God’s will remains forever.
18 Children, this is the Last Hour. You have heard that an Anti-Messiah is coming; and in fact, many anti-Messiahs have arisen now — which is how we know that this is the Last Hour.
19 They went out from us, but they weren’t part of us; for had they been part of us, they would have remained with us.

The verses do not even mention the tribulation, nor the Second Coming.

The image will still be a beast that will be against Christ.

If the world has not yet passed away, is not every hour the potential last hour?
Most Pre-Tribbers have the church raptured before the AC arises.

It's not an (image) that is captured and thrown (alive) in to the Lake of Fire. I just can't understand your interpretation
 
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Berean Tim

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Sure, but I don't see such a thing happening in the future. I certainly don't see any scripture which teaches that there will be a future individual Antichrist.

In the case where people think 2 Thess 2 refers to such a person, I wonder what temple of God they think he would sit in since there is no physical temple of God (no temple building) anymore, nor will there ever be again.
"They" said there will never be a nation of Israel. We'll see. Wouldn't take much to start sacrificing on the Temple Mount today. The word Paul used doesn't describe the whole Temple complex. It can be used as "Shrine". A simple tent would be sufficient to fulfill prophecy
 
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Spiritual Jew

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"They" said there will never be a nation of Israel. We'll see. Wouldn't take much to start sacrificing on the Temple Mount today. The word Paul used doesn't describe the whole Temple complex. It can be used as "Shrine". A simple tent would be sufficient to fulfill prophecy
Do you think that Paul would call some useless temple that people in Israel built in the future "the temple of God"? I surely don't believe so. What did Paul call the temple of God in other scripture?
 
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parousia70

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Just a quick look, the word (it) is not in the greek text. It was placed there by the KJV translators. Hardly sufficient to build a doctrine on.

Yet calming John's antichrist is a singular man, in the complete and utter absence of any scripture saying so, and in the face of multiple scriptures infallibly testifying the exact opposite, is sufficient to build a doctrine upon in your view?

In your opinion what was exactly was captured and throw alive into the LoF ?
What of Revelation 13:This calls for wisdom: let the one who has understanding calculate the number of the beast, for it is the number of a man, and his number is 666. Note the ESV translators use (His) as the pronoun because of the use of (Man)

Strongs # 444
anthrópos: a man, human, mankind
Original Word: ἄνθρωπος, ου, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: anthrópos
Phonetic Spelling: (anth'-ro-pos)
Definition: a man, human, mankind
Usage: a man, one of the human race.

So there it is.

Whoever this man in Rev 13 is, was, or shall be, we have no scriptural instruction to call him "antichrist" or claim he is related in any way to antichrist of 1 & 2 John.
Zero. Zip. Nada.

Such is purely the later added invention/tradition of fallible men.
Which, as you said, is Hardly Sufficient to build a doctrine upon.
 
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Spiritual Jew

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What of Revelation 13:This calls for wisdom: let the one who has understanding calculate the number of the beast, for it is the number of a man, and his number is 666. Note the ESV translators use (His) as the pronoun because of the use of (Man)

Strongs # 444
anthrópos: a man, human, mankind
Original Word: ἄνθρωπος, ου, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: anthrópos
Phonetic Spelling: (anth'-ro-pos)
Definition: a man, human, mankind
Usage: a man, one of the human race.

So there it is.
Are you somehow missing that "mankind" is one of the possible definitions of that word?
 
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Berean Tim

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Yet calming John's antichrist is a singular man, in the complete and utter absence of any scripture saying so, and in the face of multiple scriptures infallibly testifying the exact opposite, is sufficient to build a doctrine upon in your view?



Whoever this man in Rev 13 is, was, or shall be, we have no scriptural instruction to call him "antichrist" or claim he is related in any way to antichrist of 1 & 2 John.
Zero. Zip. Nada.

Such is purely the later added invention/tradition of fallible men.
Which, as you said, is Hardly Sufficient to build a doctrine upon.
Of course you do not address your fallacy of using the word (it). I believe you're this first person that I've heard that doesn't believe the Beast of Revelation Rev 13, the man of sin 2nd Thess, and the AC in this passage are not the same. I do understand why you must believe that way for your eschatology to work. I feel I'm in good company to believe they're the same. Who does believe they're different men ? Could you supply some references please ?
 
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lsume

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I not following what you're saying here. Please expand your thoughts
Please pray for Christ to open your eyes according to God’s Will and I am praying for you as well. The only way to Truly understand God’s Word is by direct intervention by Christ. When He comes to you and opens your eyes and ears the experience is not only incredible but you continue to grow. He came to me over 30 years ago and God’s plan is perfect. I thought I was born again many years earlier. I was wrong. Much of the New Testament deals with the Spiritual awakening that must occur.
 
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Zao is life

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I'm not American but I don't trust politicians anywhere in the world, and because I'm an E.U citizen I know the tricks of the ruling elite, but I find your post very funny, even though you may not have meant it to be.
* Trump has given us clues on what a great Deceiver could look like in the modern age but he lacks the global appeal of the AntiChrist and for all his faults has done some actual good things for the church.
* Obama was called an AntiChrist but never had the appeal and deceptive power over the church required.
* it cannot be Biden cause he does not have the charisma or energy.
* It cannot be Kamala Harris cause she is a woman and it cannot be Trump in 24 as he lacks the global appeal.
LOL
European possibilities are limited by the relative weakness and political disunity of the EU.
True
Ask me in 20 years and I might change my mind and say Chinese.
I'd give it 10 years.

MAN OF SIN

A.K.A the son of perdition (2 Thessalonians 2:3).

The only other person to be called the son of perdition in the New Testament was Judas Iscariot. He was
* Known as a disciple.
* One of the inner circle.
* Trusted by all the others - only Jesus knew Judas was going to betray Him.
* Satan entered into him, and he went out from 'the church'.

The man of sin is someone who ""opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God" (2 Thessalonians 2:4). Paul told us all very clearly that Christ will not return until this one has been revealed.

Will he go out from among us - the church? Will Christians follow him in apostasy from the faith? There is an apostasy linked to this man's appearance in 2 Thessalonians 2.

Who says "the image" of "the beast" that had existed at one time before John received the Revelation, did not exist anymore when John received the Revelation (but would ascend again from the abyss and go to perdition), isn't some sort of temple where the claim is made that it's the tabernacle of God? The beast that rises from the earth causes fire to come down from heaven. Fire came down from heaven when Solomon's temple was dedicated.

We also know this beast that rises from the earth and has two horns like a Lamb but speaks like a dragon is the false prophet because of what Revelation 13:11-18 and Revelation 19:20 say about it.

Daniel was told that beasts represent kings and their kingdoms and horns represent kings. We are told the same thing in Revelation 17:12. Heads in scripture represent the seat/capital cities of kings and their kingdoms.

Is there a kingdom in the world that received a mortal wound to its head when it was wounded by the sword, one which had existed before John received the Revelation but did not exist anymore when John received the Revelation, and has risen again from the earth causing many to marvel?

Is there a kingdom in the world that wants to build a tabernacle for God to reside in?

What if they succeed and a man of sin, a son of perdition who is known as a Christian but goes out from among us and seats himself up in this temple and gets many Christians to follow him, claiming that this is Ezekiel's temple and he is God?

What if I'm also just speculating?

PS: I'm speculating.
 
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Douggg

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Do you think that Paul would call some useless temple that people in Israel built in the future "the temple of God"? I surely don't believe so. What did Paul call the temple of God in other scripture?
After the disciples minds were opened to understand the gospel in Luke 24:40-44 - did they just stop going to the temple to worship God ?

No they did not. The temple did not lose it's status for the disciples as a place of worship and praise of God.

50 And he led them out as far as to Bethany, and he lifted up his hands, and blessed them.

51 And it came to pass, while he blessed them, he was parted from them, and carried up into heaven.

52 And they worshipped him, and returned to Jerusalem with great joy:

53 And were continually in the temple, praising and blessing God. Amen.
 
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Spiritual Jew

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After the disciples minds were opened to understand the gospel in Luke 24:40-44 - did they just stop going to the temple to worship God ?

No they did not. The temple did not lose it's status for the disciples as a place of worship and praise of God.

50 And he led them out as far as to Bethany, and he lifted up his hands, and blessed them.

51 And it came to pass, while he blessed them, he was parted from them, and carried up into heaven.

52 And they worshipped him, and returned to Jerusalem with great joy:

53 And were continually in the temple, praising and blessing God. Amen.
Oh, you mean the temple that Jesus rendered spiritually desolate before that (Matt 23:37-38) and that was destroyed 40 years later?

Sure, it was used like a church building after His death, but it no longer served the purpose it was made for since the veil was torn in two and Christ's death made the old covenant and its animal sacrifices and ordinances obsolete.

Is that what you think Paul is referencing in 2 Thess 2? A temple for believers to go worship in? Where does scripture speak of such a thing being built? Why would it even need to be built?

And, you didn't answer the question I asked about what Paul called the temple of God in other scripture that he wrote. Do you know the answer to that question?
 
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parousia70

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Of course you do not address your fallacy of using the word (it).
Sure I did. I equated it to the fallacy of claiming John teaches that antichrist is a singular man, when He doesn't.
We're either Both in the right to do so, or we're both wrong.
I'm content acquiescing the point that IT is not in the original Greek.
It does not effect my eschatology at all.

In contrast, if you acquiesce the point that John Never even once teaches that antichrist is a singular human man, your eschatology falls flat.

I believe you're this first person that I've heard that doesn't believe the Beast of Revelation Rev 13, the man of sin 2nd Thess, and the AC in this passage are not the same... I feel I'm in good company to believe they're the same.

A lot of people don't believe the Bible is even true.
If you wish to measure the correctness of your doctrine by who has the greater number, those who believe it vs. those who don't, you'll have to toss Christianity away, as it is not the majority position among humanity.

Who does believe they're different men ? Could you supply some references please ?

Here's a great History of the genesis and evolution of the belief about antichrist throughout Church History.
The Untold Truth Of The Antichrist
The "conventional wisdom" pendulum has swung back and forth a few times in the last 2000 years between a "THE antichrist" figure and a "multiple antichrists".

The challenge, in fact, is to find even ONE ECF or theologian in the first 1000 years of Church History, besides Polycarp, who even wrote about Antichrist, much less believed and taught that it was a single Human Man. Polycarp was the only one who even comes close, and from your question, you seem to indicate that a view held by only person in the Church should not be entertained as true and correct, right? especially if found that only one person over a period of 1000 years of Church History held it, huh? But, for 1000 years, Polycarp was it, and he really only quoted Johns epistle warning of multiple antichrists. (Polycarp, To the Philippians 7.1)

Finally, in 950 AD, Adso of Montier-en-Der, a French monk, was commissioned by Queen Gerberga to expound upon to her what this antichrist was...

From the article:
It wasn't until 950 A.D., almost a thousand years after Jesus died, that someone wrote down just who exactly this Antichrist guy was going to be. According to PBS, Queen Gerberga (sometimes "Gerbera") of France asked the monk Adso of Montier-en-Der for clarification on details about the Antichrist because the Bible sure didn't have specifics and neither did other church writings. So this one random monk got to make up whatever he wanted, and it went as viral as something could for the Middle Ages. The letter he wrote the queen was updated by other people who threw in their own ideas, but for hundreds of years, what Adso said about the Antichrist was, for lack of a better term, gospel.

The Encyclopedia Britannica says Queen Gerberga was worried she was living in the last days and wanted to know what to be on the lookout for. "Little Book on the Antichrist" was written in a popular style of the day, following the life of a saint, or in this case, an antisaint.

Adso believed the Antichrist wouldn't show up until the end of the Holy Roman Empire. He'd be born a Jew in Babylon, and the devil would make him the most wicked guy ever. But he would look a lot like the second coming of Christ: going to Jerusalem to minister, performing miracles, and rebuilding the Temple. Everyone would follow him, but he would persecute Christians for three and a half years. Fortunately, real Jesus would come along and kill him.


Sound familiar?

The article continues:
After Adso, the medieval idea of the Antichrist was mostly set, but the monk Joachim Of Fiore came along in the 1100s and had his own stuff to add. According to the journal article "Antichrists and Antichrist in Joachim of Fiore," this guy was obsessed with the idea of the Antichrist. It was basically all he could talk about. He became famous in his own lifetime for being the go-to person for prophecies about the Antichrist.

Other than John of Patmos (author of Revelation), Joachim was probably the most important apocalyptic thinker ever. The Encyclopedia Britannica says he saw the End Times being right around the corner. But there wasn't going to be just one Antichrist according to Joachim, but a whole bunch of them over time. Some already lived, like Nero, Muhammad, and Saladin. They were Antichrist more generally, but there would be one finally really bad Antichrist signaling the beginning of the end. In Revelation, a guy named Gog shows up to battle Christians. Joachim tied the final Antichrist to Gog, using that name, and after 1,000 years, Revelation and the Antichrist were finally connected.


Luther was next to champion the idea of a single THE antichrist, when he tied it to the Pope, but a single "The Antichrist" soon fell out of favor again for several hundred years afterward after Luther's Belief that He was living in the end times, failed to materialize...

It wasn't until about 1900 that we can trace our current proclivity toward the THE antichrist idea to, oddly, Nietzsche.

From the article again:
After Martin Luther, people basically stopped thinking about the Antichrist being a single bad guy for hundreds of years. "The" Antichrist became a thing of the past, and something being Antichrist, that is, against Christianity, was in vogue. According to The Gospel Coalition, it wasn't until about 1900 that "the" returned to the Antichrist. These days, it's so common to speak of "the" Antichrist that older documents that only refer to Antichrist sometimes have "the" inserted in brackets in front of it, as if the original author made some kind of silly mistake leaving it out. But usually they didn't. They meant exactly what they wrote, that Antichrist was a concept, not a person in need of the definite article.

So what changed? Weirdly, Nietzsche might be largely responsible for the switch from Antichrist back to "the" Antichrist. In 1895, he published a very anti-Christian book called The Antichrist, and it entered popular vernacular. By the 1970s, Christians had fully accepted the Antichrist as an individual again.

So there ya go.
As I have been saying, The Idea of a Singular future to us world ruler/despot/tyrant called "the antichrist" demonstrably traces its roots to Post Biblical, man made Tradition, and not to any explicit scriptural or apostolic teaching.
 
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Zao is life

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Of course you do not address your fallacy of using the word (it). I believe you're this first person that I've heard that doesn't believe the Beast of Revelation Rev 13, the man of sin 2nd Thess, and the AC in this passage are not the same. I do understand why you must believe that way for your eschatology to work. I feel I'm in good company to believe they're the same. Who does believe they're different men ? Could you supply some references please ?
He isn't the only one, BT. The Bible always remains 100% consistent with its own symbolism. Beasts and horns do not mean this and also that, they always mean this:

"The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom on earth" Daniel 7:23
"The ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise."
"The ten horns which you saw are ten kings, who have received no kingdom yet, but will receive authority as kings one hour with the beast. These have one mind, and they will give their power and authority to the beast." Revelation 17:12-13

"And I saw another beast coming up out of the earth. And it had two horns like a lamb, and (it/he) spoke like a dragon. And it exercises all the authority of the first beast before him, and causes the earth and those dwelling in it to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed." Revelation 13:11-12.

I agree that the beast from the earth is the false prophet, but the word beast always refers to a kingdom, or a king and his kingdom. The man of sin or son of perdition of 2 Thessalonians 2 is referring to one man, but a kingdom can have a prophet (or two). Pharaoh had two magicians who through their sorcery mimicked the plagues brought about by God's two witnesses, Moses and Aaron. The beast from the earth does not have to be referring to one man and one false prophet just because that makes more sense to some prophecy experts.

None of us are actually experts at this. If we were we would not be in disagreement about these things.
 
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Douggg

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Is that what you think Paul is referencing in 2 Thess 2? A temple for believers to go worship in? Where does scripture speak of such a thing being built? Why would it even need to be built?
-There will be another temple built in order for the time of the end prophecy of the little horn>Antichrist>beast and the 2300 days in Daniel 8 to take place.
 
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Berean Tim

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He isn't the only one, BT. The Bible always remains 100% consistent with its own symbolism. Beasts and horns do not mean this and also that, they always mean this:

"The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom on earth" Daniel 7:23
"The ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise."
"The ten horns which you saw are ten kings, who have received no kingdom yet, but will receive authority as kings one hour with the beast. These have one mind, and they will give their power and authority to the beast." Revelation 17:12-13

"And I saw another beast coming up out of the earth. And it had two horns like a lamb, and (it/he) spoke like a dragon. And it exercises all the authority of the first beast before him, and causes the earth and those dwelling in it to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed." Revelation 13:11-12.

I agree that the beast from the earth is the false prophet, but the word beast always refers to a kingdom, or a king and his kingdom. The man of sin or son of perdition of 2 Thessalonians 2 is referring to one man, but a kingdom can have a prophet (or two). Pharaoh had two magicians who through their sorcery mimicked the plagues brought about by God's two witnesses, Moses and Aaron. The beast from the earth does not have to be referring to one man and one false prophet just because that makes more sense to some prophecy experts.

None of us are actually experts at this. If we were we would not be in disagreement about these things.
Daniel 7 also says vs17‘These four great beasts are four kings who shall arise out of the earth. Kingdoms as well as men.
 
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Berean Tim

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Please pray for Christ to open your eyes according to God’s Will and I am praying for you as well. The only way to Truly understand God’s Word is by direct intervention by Christ. When He comes to you and opens your eyes and ears the experience is not only incredible but you continue to grow. He came to me over 30 years ago and God’s plan is perfect. I thought I was born again many years earlier. I was wrong. Much of the New Testament deals with the Spiritual awakening that must occur.
THanks
 
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parousia70

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I'd give it 10 years.
Yes! These are my favorite kind of posts.
I’ve been on CF for almost 20 years and I always mark these posts to re visit when the date passes...
In the 20 years I’ve been here I’ve already had the enjoyable opportunity to revisit at least a dozen “I give it 10 years” posts on the 11th year after posted... it’s always fun to watch the poster (if they’re still around) move the goalposts. its become almost a sport :)
So, look for me to come back to this post and watch you move those goalposts in 2032 :)

What’s the over/under on how far out you’ll move them?

PS: I'm speculating.

ahh ....playing the “get out of jail free” card in advance never gets old either.

This post just made my day.
 
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