Is Jesus' birthday on December 25?
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mama2one
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don't understand why so many people say "can't be December" since shepherds wouldn't be tending sheep
many in our nearby rural areas own sheep
even now with the cold, those sheep are outside almost every time we drive by
many in our nearby rural areas own sheep
even now with the cold, those sheep are outside almost every time we drive by
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ralliann
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That is why I chose December as the model. Israel as I said is like Florida, they are a major citrus producer. It is the Mediteranian, after all. Besides I heard some very good arguments concerning the shepherds and the sheep were distinct in the Gospels. These were shepherds that kept the temple flock, separate for sacrifices in the temple. The shepherds themselves therefore had to be clean. But even if this is not so it does not matter, it was a temperate climate. Especially in the daylight hours for baptism.
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Hypothermia can set in when you are exposed to water temperatures between 60°-70°F. Water temperature, due to evaporation that deprives it of heat, tends to be equal to or less than the air temperature. If the average temperature in the autumn, winter, and early spring is at or below 70°F, standing in the Jordan river baptizing will cause hypothermia.
The water temperature today, December 30th, for example, is 47°F.
I spoke to someone directly in Israel and was able to confirm autumn and winter water temperatures for the Jordan. It's quite cold. Hardly the river you want to be standing in come October and later. And definitely not place you're going to be standing, baptizing crowds for hours, in December.
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ralliann
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As I said, I chose December due to the stuff concerning the shepherds. Jews did immerse all the time to cleanse themselves to bring offerings to the temple. They did so in cold water, at all times of the year.
Besides why are we discussing John the Baptist? Besides what has Johns baptism have to do with the timing any way? I would assume missionary work would go on during the pilgrimage festivals since all the males were to be there? Why assume John was baptizing in December?
It was warm enough to sustain himself on locust and wild honey.
Mr 1:6 And John was clothed with camel’s hair, and with a girdle of a skin about his loins; and he did eat locusts and wild honey.
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Loaves and Fishes
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Likely on the Feast of Tabernacles in September/October.This is why there was no room in the inns. December 25 is the pagan celebration of Mithras ,Roman Saturnalia.Celebration of ones birthday is very unscriptural. Have a look at the birthdays mentioned in the Bible and what happened on them.
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Christian ascetics have regularly endured conditions that most people would find unbearable. John the Forerunner was arguably the first of these. I believe you fail to consider how the indwelling of the Holy Spirit enables them to endure in conditions that would cause harm to most other people.
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December 25 is not a significant day for either of those. Saturnalia ran from December 17-23. The only significance December 25 had for the pagans is that once, in 274AD, Emperor Aurelian dedicated a new temple to the Sun, but no one made an annual celebration out of the dedication of one temple. Both prior and post that one, singular event, there is no evidence that December 25 held any special significance for pagans.
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Luke 2:9-14
And an angel of the Lord appeared to them, and the glory of the Lord shone around them, and they were filled with fear. And the angel said to them, “Be not afraid; for behold, I bring you good news of a great joy which will come to all the people; for to you is born this day in the city of David a Savior, who is Christ the Lord. And this will be a sign for you: you will find a babe wrapped in swaddling cloths and lying in a manger.” And suddenly there was with the angel a multitude of the heavenly host praising God and saying,
“Glory to God in the highest,
and on earth peace among men with whom he is pleased!”
and on earth peace among men with whom he is pleased!”
You don't seem to understand that the Church celebrates all the significant events recorded in the Gospels. His conception, His birth, His baptism, His healing of the paralytic or the man born blind, His raising of the dead, His walking on water, His triumphal entry into Jerusalem, His crucifixion and burial, His rising on the third day, His ascension into heaven, His sending of the Holy Spirit on Pentecost, etc.
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ralliann
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No, it tells us there was a tax decreed.
Luke 2:1 And it came to pass in those days, that there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus, that all the world should be taxed. {taxed: or, enrolled }
2 (And this taxing was first made when Cyrenius was governor of Syria.)
3 And all went to be taxed, every one into his own city. {taxed: or, enrolled }
4 And Joseph also went up from Galilee, out of the city of Nazareth, into Judaea, unto the city of David, which is called Bethlehem; (because he was of the house and lineage of David
5 To be taxed with Mary his espoused wife, being great with child. {taxed: or, enrolled }
There were probably a lot of towns and cities that were full due to this.
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No, I didn't fail to consider it. I have considered more possibilities than most. I just don't believe that John was standing in cold water baptizing. Given the timing of the courses of Abijah in the relevant year, the visit to Mary in the sixth month, the two relative gestation periods, etc., I find it much more probable that John was born closer to December and began baptizing in the Spring around the time of the Passover, consistent with the Jewish tradition that Elijah would return at the Passover. Then Christ, born only six months later, would have been approaching his thirtieth birthday at the end of Spring or the beginning of the Summer, and he came like so many others and was baptized. In warm, late Spring/early Summer waters.
That is my stance according to my own twenty years of research on the topic. You are welcome to believe differently.
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Loaves and Fishes
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Christ was born likely on or around the feast of Trumpets and will return with the last trump.
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If you're going to quote my post and make a statement intended to instruct or correct, please provide your source and argument please.
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ralliann
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Hi there. You have some good information in this post. I had read several years ago a similar timing from another poster on another forum. He based his on a back count from the courses at the time 0f the destruction of the temple as well and came up with late December to early January for Christs birth (both Geek and Roman held these dates). I had that post saved on my computer, but didn't transfer it to my new one. I had gotten his permission to use his post freely, and I did when these things came up lol. But you have soma additional info of interest to me, as of my interest lately. Can you please provide the sources for your info please. I hope I could access it for myself for other reasons than Christs date of birth. Thanks for this.
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These are the relevant sources. The others are from the Bible and simple math.Hi there. You have some good information in this post. I had read several years ago a similar timing from another poster on another forum. He based his on a back count from the courses at the time 0f the destruction of the temple as well and came up with late December to early January for Christs birth (both Geek and Roman held these dates). I had that post saved on my computer, but didn't transfer it to my new one. I had gotten his permission to use his post freely, and I did when these things came up lol. But you have soma additional info of interest to me, as of my interest lately. Can you please provide the sources for your info please. I hope I could access it for myself for other reasons than Christs date of birth. Thanks for this.
T. Mommsen, ed., Chr. 354, in MGH 9.1, 56. One of the earliest known instances of the nativity being dated to 1 CE can be seen in the Chronographer of 354, in which Filocalus records, “Caesare et Paulo, Sat. XIII. Hoc cons. dominus Iesus Christus natus est VIII kal. Ian. d. Ven. luna xv.”
Dead Sea Scrolls 4Q320 fr. 1-4 have the courses of the priests.
Joseph BJ 6.250, Tal. b.Taan 29a both state that the temples were destroyed on the 9-10th of Ab; the Talmud reference shows that Jehoiarib was on duty.
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It is scholarly stuff. I have been researching New Testament chronology for just over twenty years. I have a book well under way. It, unfortunately, takes a lot of time to look up and document everything.
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I have a ways to go. The research is mostly done, but writing it is a huge task. I can spend all day just to write two paragraphs. You have to make sure you're being clear in what you're saying. You have to notate and cite your sources. You have to make sure you're being objective in how you're presenting your arguments. It's a lot of work.
But I do hope to have it done in the next few years if possible.
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