The Ravi Zacharias scandal and....his books on my shelves.

OzSpen

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For those of you who may not have heard, Ravi Zacharias was a well-known Christian Evangelical apologist who passed away several months ago. Over the years I've heard Ravi on the radio maybe a dozen times, defending the Christian faith and firmly refuting non-believers. And while he wasn't my favorite apologist nor one who was central to the formation of my own Christian beliefs, I have bought a few books here and there that bear his name.

Now, with the allegations that have come to light after Ravi's death (as briefly reviewed in the apologetics video below from Christian youtuber, Whaddo You Meme??) I have to ask: What should I do with the 4 or 5 Christian apologetics books by Ravi Zacharias that sit on my shelf? Should I toss them? What would you do with them? And what should we as Christians learn from this scandal?


Youtuber: Whaddo You Meme?? - Date Video Posted: Dec 23, 2020, Video length: 6 minutes, 7 seconds.

2Philo,

At this time, the allegations of sexual misconduct against Ravi are no more than allegations, which came after his death. However, I'm pleased Ravi's ministry, RZIM Board, has appointed an independent group of lawyers (Miller & Martin) to investigate the truth of the allegations.

This brief Miller & Martin report, although early in the investigation, did find some evidence of sexual harassment over a period of time.

My question remains: Why did these allegations come after his death, if the evidence points to its having gone on for years?

I have many Ravi books on my shelves and I would not get rid of them because the content of what he taught is not depreciated by these statements.

Oz
 
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2PhiloVoid

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Hopefully this is not too much of an aside but Zacharias is neither the first nor the last. So many Christian "leaders" over the years, and recently the whole Falwell debacle, have weaponized anti-Christian sentiment. I would only suggest that Christianity is always under the watchful eye of non-believers as our current political climate demonstrates.

I still think what few books of his I've read were inspiring, though I quickly found apologists and philosophers more substantive. Also, I would qualify the book were I to lend it out, but my shelves are filled with a wide array of thought...Christian and non-Christian.

I heartily concur with what you're saying here, Jamsie! I wouldn't put it any differently, really. :cool:
 
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2PhiloVoid

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2Philo,

At this time, the allegations of sexual misconduct against Ravi are no more than allegations, which came after his death. However, I'm pleased Ravi's ministry, RZIM Board, has appointed an independent group of lawyers (Miller & Martin) to investigate the truth of the allegations.

This brief Miller & Martin report, although early in the investigation, did find some evidence of sexual harassment over a period of time.

My question remains: Why did these allegations come after his death, if the evidence points to its having gone on for years?

I have many Ravi books on my shelves and I would not get rid of them because the content of what he taught is not depreciated by these statements.

Oz

I understand what you're saying, OzSpen, and I'm like many who are waiting to find out about what may be more firmly concluded on this case. I'd love to find out that the allegations were all, or at least even mostly, lies. But that remains to be seen.

As I've mentioned above to another poster, I'll probably keep the books for my own reasons but refrain from recommending them any further if the allegations prove to be true.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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Just to be clear: Christians ought to call each other out on their crummy conduct. Absolutely. The prophet Nathan pulled no punches with King David's wickedness; God knocked Paul on his can, blinding him, in order to halt his persecution of the Church; Jesus spoke very directly to Peter about his betrayal. Read 1 Corinthians 5. And so on.
Yes, that's all quite true, aiki.

My concern is that Christians sometimes use the failings of other believers as justification for their own, even going so far as to assert that real spiritual growth is impossible. The thinking runs something like: If Ravi has turned out to be a spiritual fraud, then every Christian leader is likely one, too. Ravi proves spiritual maturity is an illusion.
If this is your surmising that you're having about me, I can asure you that my purpose here in this thread is quite the opposite from your concern. I in no way am choosing to look at this issue involving Ravi as a cover from any of my own past sins. I'm a firm believer in spritual maturity. In fact, I'm glad you bring that separate topic up because me and another Christian friend are currently reading and discussing a book by D. A. Carson titled, "A Model of Christian Maturity: An Exposition of 2 Corinthians 10-13."

So, my focus here isn't to discredit the power of the Lord in helping to mold any one of us lowly sinners into a more Christ-like person. I'm simply wanting to sweep the field for opinions from fellow Christians and survey what others think is the wiser course of action in handling any of Ravi's books from this point forward.

This response to Ravi's failure is just as bad as turning a blind eye to his sin, it seems to me. This was all I was wanting to point out.
Well, on this last point, I will just have to offer you my firm but friendly disagreement. I think I've done ZERO injustice to anyone here in this thread.

Be Blessed!
 
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2PhiloVoid

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Terribly sad and disappointing - I have admired his teachings for a long time and have a number of his books although I think the guy in the video did post a reasonable and balanced analysis that brought some balance to this.

I have a highly intellectual friend (a consultant on the CERN project and also the lead scientist on the Fukishima disaster) that is highly resistant to Christianity. Ravi's level of reasoning was something that I thought I could send to her, but now sadly a simple google search and the response will be "typical - another hypocrite and another reason why I don't need to listen to anyone that talks about Jesus".

My wife put it better than I did I think - "It's not so much his legacy that has suffered but the appeal of Christ".

All you've said here reflects some of my own thinking on this. Thanks for the comments, CharvelGuy!
 
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2PhiloVoid

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I still think that when one finger points forward, three point back.

The fall of such a teacher is the failing of the Body of Christ.

We should demand that checks and balances be in place to protect those who become prominent.

He would have been prone to all sorts of attacks - there but for the Grace of God go I...

The lack of support and accountability sets up the prominent for failure.

That is our failing as well - sadness and confession all round I say...

While I can't say that I agree with the "point one finger out / three fingers point back" idea, I do agree with you in your suggestion that we should have more "checks and balances in place" among us in the Church, especially at any leadership level.

And yes, to some extent, Ravi's failing may be said to perhaps reflect the failing of some others in the Church (somewhere); it may also reflect the failing of our Western Society as it has packed itself with thought lines owing to a Playboy Philosophy and a too morally lax attitude.
 
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HappyHope

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See, here's the one thing I'd expect here. I'd expect that Christians would look at this real life issue and say something like, "Oh my goodness! That's awful! How tragic for Ravi! His family and the employees of his former ministry will need prayer and compassion"

I don't expect fellow Christians to look at this current issue and say, "Well, y'know.....everyone's a sinner. Don't be a hypocrite by attempting to spot a speck in someone else's eye! Shame on you! Better just to sweep it all under the rug and let immoral bygones be bygones, even among those who are prominent Christian leaders in high-dollar, influential ministries. No problem!"

Yeah, right! We need to be able to do better than that in our social and spiritual evaluations, even in the recognition of our own, often serious imperfectons before the feet of Christ.
Different reactions to a situation is not always a bad thing. Some Christians will automatically hurt with with the affected family. Some will first hurt for the affected victims (the alleged spa workers who expressed interest in his book and teaching before being asked for extra services). Some Christians will first feel betrayed or just disappointed. Others with first see it as a cautionary tale for Christians in a fallen world. These are understandable reactions.

I was once part of a group of wholesome Christians ladies and we noted how people respond to problems differently. One friend might lean towards instant sympathy. Another might analyze. Another lady said she was likely to served up a bit of tough love with “Tough it up, buttercup.” advice in a given situation. We are all different and that’s OK. We are supposed to be different. It is best to be considerate of the the natural reactions of others especially regarding sensitive subjects like this. The body of Christ is made up of many parts. They are not going to look or function identically.
 
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Carl Emerson

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While I can't say that I agree with the "point one finger out / three fingers point back" idea, I do agree with you in your suggestion that we should have more "checks and balances in place" among us in the Church, especially at any leadership level.

And yes, to some extent, Ravi's failing may be said to perhaps reflect the failing of some others in the Church (somewhere); it may also reflect the failing of our Western Society as it has packed itself with thought lines owing to a Playboy Philosophy and a social too morally lax attitude.

He who is without sin point the first finger...

We all need to own this failure - 'crucify him' many cry when we are all but dust... kept by Grace in His Righteousness - not our own.

Own the disorder in the Body - stand strong against the failed structures that have allowed this to happen - return to a biblical model of accountability. Identify and shun the secular philosophy that has infiltrated our culture and perpetrated the Superstar phenomena that sets the prominent up to fail - who is Paul - who is Apollus - who is Ravi? They are servants through whom you believed, as the Lord has assigned to each his role... and we watched as he fell it seems... Something needed to happen - but didn't - way back before disaster struck it seems. And if no one knew, then our Body Discernment is found wanting - either way it is a collective failure not just the weakness of one individual...
 
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anna ~ grace

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I really liked Ravi’s writings and words. He was an articulate, intelligent man who likely helped lead many to Christ, including me. I had always wanted to meet him.

This is so true of so many apparently Godly, wise, good Christian men. There’s a lot of selfishness and evil under the surface, and the realization of how messed up an apparently good man can be is always disappointing and confusing.

Do you keep his books? That’s up to you. If they have helped you and are wise and true, keep them. But if you feel like you can not in good conscience keep them on your shelves, you can donate them. God can and does use very messed up people to say and write very true and holy things, which help others. On the other hand, articulate words alone can’t help us if we’re preying on people sexually. That’s just wrong.

Stuff like this turns people away from Christ. The victims have to live with what happened to them. Being abused by an apparent man of God must be a horrible and confusing experience. Christ, have mercy.

I am very, very glad to see RZIM being open and honest about this. Kudos to them.

Update from RZIM Board: Allegations Against Ravi Zacharias
 
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2PhiloVoid

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Since I have a moment or two to spare, I just want to thank everyone who has so far contributed his or her own viewpoint in this thread. I know that the issue I've brought forward for philosophical and ethical consideration is a bothersome one, but being that it is a timely issue, and being that it is one which seems to reflect the quality of the human spiritual struggle that is so prevalent in our present era, it's one that I think should be discussed.

While I am a little taken aback by the moderate kickback I seem to have generated in this discussion, I'd like everyone to know that I've read each of your posts and I have seriously listened to what you've all had to say. So, thank you for taking the time to express yourself on this delicate but (to me) relevant issue.

Peace!
 
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JSRG

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You know, some of the contributors to the Bible were less than stellar people. King David comes immediately to mind. How many people have been comforted and encouraged by the Psalms of David, an adulterer and murderer? The apostle Paul was going about killing Christians before God got hold of him. How many believers, though, have discovered the deep, meaty truths of spiritual living through Paul's many letters to the Early Church? Peter outright denied Christ - three times - and yet, two of his letters are part of the canon of the NT.
A rather important difference is that the three people you mentioned all repented of the sins you mention and then didn't keep doing it.
 
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josef7

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A rather important difference is that the three people you mentioned all repented of the sins you mention and then didn't keep doing it.

Very true and a very important difference.

Another thing, regarding the question of whether what someone wrote is still true -- it can be hard to discern subtle errors in teaching, but looking at someone's fruit is one way of seeing them. Not only subtle errors but are they saying what Christ wants to be said? Are they able to go into a situation like Paul and discern, where other people can't, that some ongoing conduct is not in line with the gospel (Galatians 2:14)? Will someone living in secret unrepentant sin have that kind of discernment?
 
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Carl Emerson

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A rather important difference is that the three people you mentioned all repented of the sins you mention and then didn't keep doing it.

I have often thought that Samson was unrepentant yet greatly anointed and used.
 
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SPF

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I've said before that he didn't write "his" books.
John, let's be honest and candid for a moment - you've done no research into this. You haven't looked into how much or how little Ravi wrote in his books. You're making an ignorant, blanket statement, completely out of your rear end. I don't understand why people do this.

I knew Ravi. I studied under Ravi, I ate with him and his family, and after college, while I ultimately made a vocation change, some of my friends joined his ministry.

So let me say first off - he wrote his books. Ravi was an apologist, not a theologian or historian. Frankly, his books aren't that long. Compare Ravi to other historical Christian authors like Augustine, Calvin, and many others and the work that Ravi did pales in comparison in terms of volume of content.

Please stop speaking out of your ignorant rear. Come back with actual research if you have further comments.

Now as for the OP. I'm choosing to keep his books, because the Truth contained in them is still valuable and can be used for the furthering of the Kingdom. Also, honestly by having the books, if anyone sees them and knows what happened, it can be turned into an honest conversation about sin and the need for accountability.

Sin is real. We all still do it, all of us. Unfortunately for Ravi, his hidden sin was the kind that destroys families and ministries. I don't see his ministry recovering. It's amazing how destructive sin is. This is a testimony to how we need accountability as Christians.

It's a testimony to why the Scripture calls us not to forsake the fellowship of Believers. We are not meant to be islands of one. All of us should be involved with a local Church, with a small group of fellow believers, with people we are authentic, honest, and open with. The enemy is real, and if we choose to hide ourselves and pretend, sin will destroy what we build.

I'm keeping his books, and I plan on using Ravi's failures and mistakes as further fuel for good conversations with people.
 
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JohnDB

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John, let's be honest and candid for a moment - you've done no research into this. You haven't looked into how much or how little Ravi wrote in his books. You're making an ignorant, blanket statement, completely out of your rear end. I don't understand why people do this.

I knew Ravi. I studied under Ravi, I ate with him and his family, and after college, while I ultimately made a vocation change, some of my friends joined his ministry.

So let me say first off - he wrote his books. Ravi was an apologist, not a theologian or historian. Frankly, his books aren't that long. Compare Ravi to other historical Christian authors like Augustine, Calvin, and many others and the work that Ravi did pales in comparison in terms of volume of content.

Please stop speaking out of your ignorant rear. Come back with actual research if you have further comments.

Now as for the OP. I'm choosing to keep his books, because the Truth contained in them is still valuable and can be used for the furthering of the Kingdom. Also, honestly by having the books, if anyone sees them and knows what happened, it can be turned into an honest conversation about sin and the need for accountability.

Sin is real. We all still do it, all of us. Unfortunately for Ravi, his hidden sin was the kind that destroys families and ministries. I don't see his ministry recovering. It's amazing how destructive sin is. This is a testimony to how we need accountability as Christians.

It's a testimony to why the Scripture calls us not to forsake the fellowship of Believers. We are not meant to be islands of one. All of us should be involved with a local Church, with a small group of fellow believers, with people we are authentic, honest, and open with. The enemy is real, and if we choose to hide ourselves and pretend, sin will destroy what we build.

I'm keeping his books, and I plan on using Ravi's failures and mistakes as further fuel for good conversations with people.

Even if the books are small...
He still had ghost writers...he might have thrown some notes at them. But that's the whole of it. Even small, short books require lots of work.
You can put the man on a pedestal if you wish.
I don't and won't.
I know several writers...Mike Snow, my Pastor, and my wife. Spencer (lives in OZ) is currently working on his book and It's not going to be a popular bestseller...it's a textbook.

My pastor's little book took him five years to write and get published through a vanity press. It wasn't much more than a booklet by the time all was said and done.

I haven't seen or read Ravi's books. Not really interested in him... never really cared for his stuff although I readily admit that his stuff is usually very popular. It's that whole itching ears getting scratched thing.
To me, he wasn't helpful in my daily life. YMMV.

Book writing and publishing has been a staple for many a Christian televangelist. Except that it takes a LOT of work to make it happen. And they don't have the time.
 
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SPF

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I haven't seen or read Ravi's books. Not really interested in him
So you've never seen and you've never read Ravi's books, yet you know that you've....
never really cared for his stuff
Again, you've never seen and you've never read anything by Ravi Zacharias, yet you know that
To me, he wasn't helpful in my daily life.

That's impressive. Honestly, I think the only Christians that wouldn't consider Ravi's books beneficial would be ones that had no interest in spreading the Gospel.
 
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HappyHope

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He who is without sin point the first finger...

We all need to own this failure - 'crucify him' many cry when we are all but dust... kept by Grace in His Righteousness - not our own.

Own the disorder in the Body - stand strong against the failed structures that have allowed this to happen - return to a biblical model of accountability. Identify and shun the secular philosophy that has infiltrated our culture and perpetrated the Superstar phenomena that sets the prominent up to fail - who is Paul - who is Apollus - who is Ravi? They are servants through whom you believed, as the Lord has assigned to each his role... and we watched as he fell it seems... Something needed to happen - but didn't - way back before disaster struck it seems. And if no one knew, then our Body Discernment is found wanting - either way it is a collective failure not just the weakness of one individual...
I have a hunch that the discerning members of the body of Christ may not be entirely at fault here. Considering the sexting scandal and other nondisclosure agreements that people signed concerning their dealings with Mr. Zacharias in the past, I’m inclined to think someone around him had a clue and said something.

Whether he chose to listen or push them away with sharp or even eloquent speech is another matter. Or like other leaders he may have meticulously surrounded himself with unconditionally supporting staff members who would not dare question him. It happens. High platforms are wide open for attack and a certain amount of protection is needed but becomes a problem if one is only surrounded by enablers and not refiners.

So, I’m not so sure the discerners didn’t show up. Also, the Lord is amazing and would have sent serious heart pangs and various messages to any minister involved in chronic ugly especially of his caliber with a heart to listen. It is just His character to come after us and warn us before a fallout.

If blame needs assigned we all know we wrestle not against flesh and blood.. but Mr. Zacharias had to have known and probably felt bad about any improper behavior. Or so I’d like to think. Since the Lord took him home before the public fallout, I’m guessing the Lord showed him public mercy. Many fallen ministers are not so lucky.

According to Christianity Today, one of the spa workers claimed Ravi said he was stressed and wanted to walk away from the pressures of his ministry but couldn’t so his alleged illicit spa activities provided relief. If this is true, it would have been better for Ravi to have walked away/retired from his ministry than to have developed such immoral coping habits. Poor coping habits ruin so many good things and good people. Less is more if one’s outlets become poison.

No matter what, my heart goes out to all involved if there is truth to any of the allegations.
 
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JohnDB

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How about this for you. John Piper has written over 50 books, more than Zacharias. He has never once used a ghost writer. On Ghostwriters | Desiring God

Yeah, I'm not a John Piper fan either.
But he has a much more reduced speaking engagement schedule than Ravi or some of the others.
But I did notice that he calls what is essentially a ghost writer/researcher an editor. It's semantics at best. He is commissioning a book based on very rough notes with an editor/ghost writer. He tried to call them a co-author...as if that makes it less culpable in guilt of doing what his many contemporaries do.
Yeah... whatever. At least he has read the book his name is on.

The guys I look to for information and all the rest of what I base my faith on are historians, anthropologists, translation scholars, and ANE literature specialists. None of these guys are brand names except in circles so small that no one has really heard of them.

One of my favorite is a post-doc in Slovakia. I know him personally and have looked at his research and know what he is saying to be perfectly in line with scriptures but absolutely is contradictory to theologies that some popular "name brand" pastors and theologians have vehemently promoted. Some are named in this thread.

If given the choice of popularity vx accuracy these guys chose accuracy. Which is why I listen to them. I'm not interested in getting my itching ears scratched.

YMMV
 
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