Abomination of Desolation in Luke?

claninja said:

Job 1:6-7 One day the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satana also came with them. “Where have you come from?” said the LORD to Satan. “From roaming through the earth,” he replied, “and walking back and forth in it.”

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The verse above from Job is often used to make the claim that Satan still had access to heaven during the time of Job. However, it makes the assumption God could not be present on the earth.
Because God came to earth at Mount Sinai during the Exodus we know this is possible.

The beginning of Revelation 12 is a history lesson which includes the fall of Satan, and the birth and death of Christ.

Satan was cast out of heaven sometime during the Book of Genesis, and this planet became his prison.

Gen 3:14 And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:

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BABerean2 said:

The verse above from Job is often used to make the claim that Satan still had access to heaven during the time of Job. However, it makes the assumption God could not be present on the earth.
Because God came to earth at Mount Sinai during the Exodus we know this is possible.

The beginning of Revelation 12 is a history lesson which includes the fall of Satan, and the birth and death of Christ.

Satan was cast out of heaven sometime during the Book of Genesis, and this planet became his prison.

Gen 3:14 And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:

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Revelation 12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.

In order for you to be correct all of the above would have had to have been true during the time recorded in Genesis that you have in mind.

You then think, during the days recorded in Genesis that you have in mind here, that once satan was cast unto the earth, and that he saw he was cast unto the earth, he then set out to persecute the woman which brought forth the man child? Can you show which chapter and verses in Genesis that we can find something like this in, otherwise you appear to be making things up as you go along if there are no verses in Genesis that support your conclusions, that after the war in heaven, the dragon then set out to persecute the woman which brought forth the man child, during some of the days recorded in Genesis somewhere.

claninja said:

I view satan's release from the pit, for a little while, in revelation 20:7-9, as a reference to Satan's casting out of heaven at Christ's ascension to deceive and persecute.

revelation 20:3,7-9 and threw him into the pit, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he might not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were ended. After that he must be released for a little while. And when the thousand years are ended, Satan will be released from his prison and will come out to deceive the nations that are at the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them for battle; their number is like the sand of the sea. And they marched up over the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, but fire came down from heavenb and consumed them

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How could the thousand years already be over when Christ ascended to heaven? While I don't take the thousand years to mean a literal thousand years, I also don't think it's reasonable at all to think it was already over when Christ ascended. That would turn the thousand years into about 40 days if you see His reign as having begun the day He was resurrected. When do you think the thousand years began?

Christ began to reign after His resurrection and when He ascended to the right hand of the Father (Matthew 28:18, Ephesians 1:19-22). So, I see His ascension as being related to the beginning of the thousand years, not the end of it.

Also, where does it say anything about Satan's binding having anything to do with his ability to persecute believers? It only says he was bound from deceiving the nations, not from persecuting believers. To me, his being bound from deceiving the nations doesn't have to do with his general ability to deceive as if it means he was bound from deceiving at all, it has to do with what he was able to do before Christ's death and resurrection and after that.

This was the state of the Gentiles before Christ came.

Ephesians 2:11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; 12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

But then after He came that all changed.

Ephesians 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ...19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;

Satan was no longer able to keep the Gentile nations in spiritual darkness the way he was before Christ came and died and rose again.

Hebrews 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; 15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

The impact of Christ's death and resurrection on the devil, Satan, was tremendous. Before that, the Gentiles were "without Christ...having no hope, and without God in the world". Before that, Satan had "the power of death" and was able to wield that power to make people fearful of death and in bondage to their fear. But, Christ, through His death and resurrection, took the devil's power away and gave hope to the world for the first time. They never had any hope in eternal life before that.

Satan was bound from keeping them from having hope and being fearful of death any longer because of the preaching of the gospel through the power of the Holy Spirit throughout the world. The thousand years marks the time of Christ's reign at the right hand of the Father and the time when Satan would be restrained from stopping the preaching of the gospel to give the hope of forgiveness of sins and eternal life to the world.

The idea of Satan's binding having anything to do with his ability to persecute believers is not found in scripture. Paul himself said this:

2 Timothy 3:12 Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.

Being persecuted is part of being a follower of Christ. Why would God ever bind Satan from persecuting believers when Peter said in 1 Peter 1:7 "That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ" and Paul said in Romans 5:3-5 "we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience; And patience, experience; and experience, hope: And hope maketh not ashamed".

BABerean2 said:

The verse above from Job is often used to make the claim that Satan still had access to heaven during the time of Job. However, it makes the assumption God could not be present on the earth.
Because God came to earth at Mount Sinai during the Exodus we know this is possible.

The beginning of Revelation 12 is a history lesson which includes the fall of Satan, and the birth and death of Christ.

Satan was cast out of heaven sometime during the Book of Genesis, and this planet became his prison.

Gen 3:14 And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:

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Satan was never cast out, yet.

Read Revelation 12 again, and you will see that the stars were cast out after the existence of the woman. Jude confirms the angels were bound, but not their leader. Since in the 5th Trumpet he was allowed to free them by opening the pit himself. Then Christ was born in between when the angels were bound, and the final battle with Michael, and notice his angels also. Thus last battle is after the pit is opened. Between the 5th and 7th Trumpets.

Revelation 12:3-9

3 Another sign was seen in heaven there was a great red dragon with seven heads and ten horns, and on his heads were seven royal crowns.
4 Its tail swept a third of the stars out of heaven and threw them down to the earth. It stood in front of the woman about to give birth, so that it might devour the child the moment it was born.
5 She gave birth to a son, a male child, the one who will rule all the nations with a staff of iron. But her child was snatched up to God and his throne;
6 and she fled into the desert, where she has a place prepared by God so that she can be taken care of for 1,260 days.
7 Next there was a battle in heaven — Mikha’el and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back.
8 But it was not strong enough to win, so that there was no longer any place for them in heaven.
9 The great dragon was thrown out, that ancient serpent, also known as the Devil and Satan [the Adversary], the deceiver of the whole world. He was hurled down to the earth, and his angels were hurled down with him.

Please tell me you do NOT think the verses are chronologically out of order.

Angels locked up.

Christ was born.

5th Trumpet

Battle and last defeat of Satan in heaven.

DavidPT said:

In order for you to be correct all of the above would have had to have been true during the time recorded in Genesis that you have in mind.

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I said the beginning of Revelation 12 is a history lesson containing the fall of Satan, and the birth and death of Christ.
Christ was not born, nor did He die in the Book of Genesis.

In my humble opinion, Revelation 12:11 occurs during the period shortly before the Second Coming of Christ.

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Timtofly said:

Satan was never cast out, yet.

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2Pe_2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;


Is Satan one of the angels that sinned?


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BABerean2 said:

2Pe_2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;


Is Satan one of the angels that sinned?


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Did Satan literally come to the council of God in Job? Did Satan tempt Eve? Did Satan tempt Jesus?

3 Another sign was seen in heaven there was a great red dragon with seven heads and ten horns, and on his heads were seven royal crowns.
4 Its tail swept a third of the stars out of heaven and threw them down to the earth.

John did not think Satan sinned. Satan got the angels to sin and disobedience, just like he deceived Eve. Did Satan eat from the tree?

No where does it say Satan joined in with those whom he led astray. He is the originator of lying. Did the angels lie to God?

Timtofly said:

John did not think Satan sinned.

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Joh_13:27 And after the sop Satan entered into him. Then said Jesus unto him, That thou doest, do quickly.


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BABerean2 said:

The verse above from Job is often used to make the claim that Satan still had access to heaven during the time of Job. However, it makes the assumption God could not be present on the earth.
Because God came to earth at Mount Sinai during the Exodus we know this is possible.

Click to expand...

Absolutely a possibility as well.

BABerean2 said:

The beginning of Revelation 12 is a history lesson which includes the fall of Satan, and the birth and death of Christ.

Satan was cast out of heaven sometime during the Book of Genesis, and this planet became his prison.

Click to expand...

I agree that revelation 12 is history lesson, but I disagree that it is in regards to satan's fall during the time of genesis.

The vision starts with the woman clothed with the sun, moon, and crown of twelve stars, who is pregnant, as "IN HEAVEN". The dragon was a also another sign "IN HEAVEN", who stood before the woman "IN HEAVEN" who was about to give birth to a child, so that he might devour it.

revelation 12:1-4 And a great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars. She was pregnant and was crying out in birth pains and the agony of giving birth. And another sign appeared in heaven: behold, a great red dragon, with seven heads and ten horns, and on his heads seven diadems. His tail swept down a third of the stars of heaven and cast them to the earth. And the dragon stood before the woman who was about to give birth, so that when she bore her child he might devour it.


After the Child's birth, He is caught up to the throne of God and the woman fled into the wilderness for 1260 days to be nourished by God.

revelation 12:5-6 She gave birth to a male child, one who is to rulea all the nations with a rod of iron, but her child was caught up to God and to his throne, and the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, in which she is to be nourished for 1,260 days.


However, it is revealed that the woman fled into the wilderness for a time, times, and half a time because the Dragon who had been cast out pursued her.

Revelation 12:13-14 And when the dragon saw that he had been thrown down to the earth, he pursued the woman who had given birth to the male child. But the woman was given the two wings of the great eagle so that she might fly from the serpent into the wilderness, to the place where she is to be nourished for a time, and times, and half a time.

IMHO, The NT should be used to interpret verses 9-11.

revelation 12:9-10 And the great dragon was thrown down, that ancient serpent, who is called the devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world—he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him. And I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying, “Now the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of his Christ have come, for the accuser of our brothers has been thrown down, who accuses them day and night before our God. And they have conquered him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, for they loved not their lives even unto death. Therefore, rejoice, O heavens and you who dwell in them! But woe to you, O earth and sea, for the devil has come down to you in great wrath, because he knows that his time is short!”


Jesus said satan would be cast out in association with his death and resurrection.

John 12:31-33 Now is the judgment of this world; now will the ruler of this world be cast out. And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.” He said this to show by what kind of death he was going to die.


The kingdom of God and the authority of Christ are present in the 1st century:

Mark 9:1 And he said to them, “Truly, I say to you, there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see the kingdom of God after it has come with power.”

Matthew 28:18 And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.

Jesus said satan was coming

John 14:30 I will no longer talk much with you, for the ruler of this world is coming. He has no claim on me,


Therefore it is upon Christ's ascension that the dragon was cast out and pursued the woman who fled into the wilderness to be nourished for 1260 days/time, times, half a time.


IMHO, this is a reference to the last half of the 70th week, and the historical events of this vision can be found in Acts 1-7.

Spiritual Jew said:

How could the thousand years already be over when Christ ascended to heaven? While I don't take the thousand years to mean a literal thousand years, I also don't think it's reasonable at all to think it was already over when Christ ascended.

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Not "over", but fulfilled/brought to completion in Christ, with results of this fulfillment going into the future.

Christ's 1st advent fulfilled the promise to David (given 1,000 years previously) that his descendant would sit on the throne. This resulted in Christ forever reigning with all power and authority

Christ's 1st advent resulted in satan being bound (Matthew 12:29, revelation 12:10)

Christ's 1st advent resulted in satan being cast out (John 12:31-32)

Christ's 1st advent resulted in satan coming (John 14:30)

Christ's 1st advent resulted in the elect partaking in the 1st resurrection (who is Christ) to never be hurt by the 2nd death and to become a kingdom of priests (1 peter 2:9, ephesians 2:5-6, John 11:25-26).

Spiritual Jew said:

That would turn the thousand years into about 40 days if you see His reign as having begun the day He was resurrected. When do you think the thousand years began?

Christ began to reign after His resurrection and when He ascended to the right hand of the Father (Matthew 28:18, Ephesians 1:19-22). So, I see His ascension as being related to the beginning of the thousand years, not the end of it.

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Again, I do not hold that the 1,000 years are symbolic for a period of time between 2 points.

I believe the 1,000 years is symbolic for the fulfillment of the Davidic monarchy, which resulted in satan being bound, cast out, and coming, as well as the saints partaking in the 1st resurrection to never be hurt by the 2nd death and to become a kingdom of priests.

Spiritual Jew said:

Also, where does it say anything about Satan's binding having anything to do with his ability to persecute believers? It only says he was bound from deceiving the nations, not from persecuting believers. To me, his being bound from deceiving the nations doesn't have to do with his general ability to deceive as if it means he was bound from deceiving at all, it has to do with what he was able to do before Christ's death and resurrection and after that.

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I never stated satan was bound from persecuting.

Spiritual Jew said:

Ephesians 2:11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; 12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

But then after He came that all changed.

Ephesians 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ...19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;

Satan was no longer able to keep the Gentile nations in spiritual darkness the way he was before Christ came and died and rose again.

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Agreed.

But that does not mean satan was unable to hinder the gospel from spreading to the gentiles.

IMHO, after satan being cast out and coming, he was deceiving and working through the sons of disobedience to hinder the gospel to the nations.

1 thessalonians 2:14-18 For you, brothers, became imitators of the churches of God in Christ Jesus that are in Judea. For you suffered the same things from your own countrymen as they did from the Jews,f who killed both the Lord Jesus and the prophets, and drove us out, and displease God and oppose all mankind by hindering us from speaking to the Gentiles that they might be saved—so as always to fill up the measure of their sins. But wrath has come upon them at last! But since we were torn away from you, brothers, for a short time, in person not in heart, we endeavored the more eagerly and with great desire to see you face to face, because we wanted to come to you—I, Paul, again and again—but Satan hindered us.

Ephesians 2:2 in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience

2 corinthians 11:13-15 For such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ. And no wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. So it is no surprise if his servants, also, disguise themselves as servants of righteousness. Their end will correspond to their deeds.

1 peter 5:8 Be sober-minded; be watchful. Your adversary the devil prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour.

1 timothy 5:15 For some have already strayed after Satan.

IMHO it is these references of hindering, persecuting and deceiving as to what is referenced in the following:

revelation 20:7-9 And when the thousand years are ended, Satan will be released from his prison 8and will come out to deceive the nations that are at the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them for battle; their number is like the sand of the sea. 9And they marched up over the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, but fire came down from heavenb and consumed them,

Spiritual Jew said:

The impact of Christ's death and resurrection on the devil, Satan, was tremendous. Before that, the Gentiles were "without Christ...having no hope, and without God in the world". Before that, Satan had "the power of death" and was able to wield that power to make people fearful of death and in bondage to their fear. But, Christ, through His death and resurrection, took the devil's power away and gave hope to the world for the first time. They never had any hope in eternal life before that.

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Agreed

Spiritual Jew said:

The thousand years marks the time of Christ's reign at the right hand of the Father and the time when Satan would be restrained from stopping the preaching of the gospel to give the hope of forgiveness of sins and eternal life to the world.

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Like when satan hindered the gospel from going to all mankind through the Jews?

1 thessalonians 2:14-18 For you, brothers, became imitators of the churches of God in Christ Jesus that are in Judea. For you suffered the same things from your own countrymen as they did from the Jews,f who killed both the Lord Jesus and the prophets, and drove us out, and displease God and oppose all mankind by hindering us from speaking to the Gentiles that they might be saved—so as always to fill up the measure of their sins. But wrath has come upon them at last! But since we were torn away from you, brothers, for a short time, in person not in heart, we endeavored the more eagerly and with great desire to see you face to face, because we wanted to come to you—I, Paul, again and again—but Satan hindered us.

Spiritual Jew said:

The idea of Satan's binding having anything to do with his ability to persecute believers is not found in scripture. Paul himself said this:

2 Timothy 3:12 Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.

Being persecuted is part of being a follower of Christ. Why would God ever bind Satan from persecuting believers when Peter said in 1 Peter 1:7 "That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ" and Paul said in Romans 5:3-5 "we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience; And patience, experience; and experience, hope: And hope maketh not ashamed".

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I never stated satan's ability to persecute was hindered by his binding.

BABerean2 said:

Joh_13:27 And after the sop Satan entered into him. Then said Jesus unto him, That thou doest, do quickly.


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Go and do thou likewise? Any one can string verses together.....

People could sell slaves or secrets in that day. Is that sin? What Law was broken.

claninja said:

IMHO, this is a reference to the last half of the 70th week, and the historical events of this vision can be found in Acts 1-7.

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Revelation 12 shows the woman with 2 different times there was safety. 3.5 years at the birth. Then the times, time, and half a time, at the Second Coming. The 70th week was split.

Timtofly said:

Revelation 12 shows the woman with 2 different times there was safety. 3.5 years at the birth. Then the times, time, and half a time, at the Second Coming. The 70th week was split.

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Matthew 10:5-7, and Acts of the Apostles 10:36-38, and Romans 1:16, and Galatians 1:14-18, reveal a time period of about 7 years when the Gospel was taken "first" to the Jews, before Paul took the Gospel to the Gentiles.
This was the 70th week of Daniel during the first century.


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claninja said:

Not "over", but fulfilled/brought to completion in Christ, with results of this fulfillment going into the future.

Christ's 1st advent fulfilled the promise to David (given 1,000 years previously) that his descendant would sit on the throne. This resulted in Christ forever reigning with all power and authority

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It seems that you are relating the promise being given to David 1000 years previously to the 1000 years mentioned in Revelation 20? I don't see how that can make sense. It speaks of Christ reigning for a thousand years, so the thousand years began when He began to reign and not 1000 years prior.

Again, I do not hold that the 1,000 years are symbolic for a period of time between 2 points.

I believe the 1,000 years is symbolic for the fulfillment of the Davidic monarchy, which resulted in satan being bound, cast out, and coming, as well as the saints partaking in the 1st resurrection to never be hurt by the 2nd death and to become a kingdom of priests.

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I'm sorry, but I don't find that to be a plausible intepretation of the 1,000 years at all. To see the thousand years as being symbolic is one thing, but to not see it as representing a time period with a beginning and end doesn't line up with the fact that it is said to begin with the reign of Christ and binding of Satan and it ends when Satan is loosed.

I never stated satan was bound from persecuting.

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You said "I view satan's release from the pit, for a little while, in revelation 20:7-9, as a reference to Satan's casting out of heaven at Christ's ascension to deceive and persecute.", so that made it seem like you were saying he was bound from deceiving and persecuting and then was able to deceive and persecute after being released.

But that does not mean satan was unable to hinder the gospel from spreading to the gentiles.

IMHO, after satan being cast out and coming, he was deceiving and working through the sons of disobedience to hinder the gospel to the nations.

1 thessalonians 2:14-18 For you, brothers, became imitators of the churches of God in Christ Jesus that are in Judea. For you suffered the same things from your own countrymen as they did from the Jews,f who killed both the Lord Jesus and the prophets, and drove us out, and displease God and oppose all mankind by hindering us from speaking to the Gentiles that they might be saved—so as always to fill up the measure of their sins. But wrath has come upon them at last! But since we were torn away from you, brothers, for a short time, in person not in heart, we endeavored the more eagerly and with great desire to see you face to face, because we wanted to come to you—I, Paul, again and again—but Satan hindered us.

Ephesians 2:2 in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience

2 corinthians 11:13-15 For such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ. And no wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. So it is no surprise if his servants, also, disguise themselves as servants of righteousness. Their end will correspond to their deeds.

1 peter 5:8 Be sober-minded; be watchful. Your adversary the devil prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour.

1 timothy 5:15 For some have already strayed after Satan.

IMHO it is these references of hindering, persecuting and deceiving as to what is referenced in the following:

revelation 20:7-9 And when the thousand years are ended, Satan will be released from his prison 8and will come out to deceive the nations that are at the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them for battle; their number is like the sand of the sea. 9And they marched up over the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, but fire came down from heavenb and consumed them,

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To hinder the gospel is one thing, but to stop its spread is another thing altogether. Compare how things were in the world before Christ's death and resurrection to after His death and resurrection. You don't see a huge difference? Do you not believe that Christ's death and resurrection had a tremendous impact on Satan?

I believe Satan's binding had to do with him being unable to stop the spread of the gospel. That he was able to hinder it some does not mean he was able to stop it. And he was not able to stop it from going out into the world.

Romans 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. 18 But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.

claninja said:

Absolutely a possibility as well.



I agree that revelation 12 is history lesson, but I disagree that it is in regards to satan's fall during the time of genesis.

The vision starts with the woman clothed with the sun, moon, and crown of twelve stars, who is pregnant, as "IN HEAVEN". The dragon was a also another sign "IN HEAVEN", who stood before the woman "IN HEAVEN" who was about to give birth to a child, so that he might devour it.

revelation 12:1-4 And a great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars. She was pregnant and was crying out in birth pains and the agony of giving birth. And another sign appeared in heaven: behold, a great red dragon, with seven heads and ten horns, and on his heads seven diadems. His tail swept down a third of the stars of heaven and cast them to the earth. And the dragon stood before the woman who was about to give birth, so that when she bore her child he might devour it.


After the Child's birth, He is caught up to the throne of God and the woman fled into the wilderness for 1260 days to be nourished by God.

revelation 12:5-6 She gave birth to a male child, one who is to rulea all the nations with a rod of iron, but her child was caught up to God and to his throne, and the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, in which she is to be nourished for 1,260 days.


However, it is revealed that the woman fled into the wilderness for a time, times, and half a time because the Dragon who had been cast out pursued her.

Revelation 12:13-14 And when the dragon saw that he had been thrown down to the earth, he pursued the woman who had given birth to the male child. But the woman was given the two wings of the great eagle so that she might fly from the serpent into the wilderness, to the place where she is to be nourished for a time, and times, and half a time.

IMHO, The NT should be used to interpret verses 9-11.

revelation 12:9-10 And the great dragon was thrown down, that ancient serpent, who is called the devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world—he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him. And I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying, “Now the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of his Christ have come, for the accuser of our brothers has been thrown down, who accuses them day and night before our God. And they have conquered him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, for they loved not their lives even unto death. Therefore, rejoice, O heavens and you who dwell in them! But woe to you, O earth and sea, for the devil has come down to you in great wrath, because he knows that his time is short!”


Jesus said satan would be cast out in association with his death and resurrection.

John 12:31-33 Now is the judgment of this world; now will the ruler of this world be cast out. And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.” He said this to show by what kind of death he was going to die.


The kingdom of God and the authority of Christ are present in the 1st century:

Mark 9:1 And he said to them, “Truly, I say to you, there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see the kingdom of God after it has come with power.”

Matthew 28:18 And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.

Jesus said satan was coming

John 14:30 I will no longer talk much with you, for the ruler of this world is coming. He has no claim on me,


Therefore it is upon Christ's ascension that the dragon was cast out and pursued the woman who fled into the wilderness to be nourished for 1260 days/time, times, half a time.


IMHO, this is a reference to the last half of the 70th week, and the historical events of this vision can be found in Acts 1-7.

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The beginning of Revelation 12 is about the seed promise found fulfilled in Matthew 1:1, and Galatians 3:16.
The seed promise starts with the promise God made to Satan in Genesis 3:15.
Revelation 12 starts with the vision given to Joseph of the twelve tribes, who would fulfill the seed promise.
The passage also contains the time period when Joseph took the baby Jesus and His mother to Egypt to escape Herod.

The Flight to Egypt

Mat 2:13 And when they were departed, behold, the angel of the Lord appeareth to Joseph in a dream, saying, Arise, and take the young child and his mother, and flee into Egypt, and be thou there until I bring thee word: for Herod will seek the young child to destroy him.
Mat 2:14 When he arose, he took the young child and his mother by night, and departed into Egypt:
Mat 2:15 And was there until the death of Herod: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Out of Egypt have I called my son.

Herod Kills the Children

Mat 2:16 Then Herod, when he saw that he was mocked of the wise men, was exceeding wroth, and sent forth, and slew all the children that were in Bethlehem, and in all the coasts thereof, from two years old and under, according to the time which he had diligently enquired of the wise men.
Mat 2:17 Then was fulfilled that which was spoken by Jeremy the prophet, saying,
Mat 2:18 In Rama was there a voice heard, lamentation, and weeping, and great mourning, Rachel weeping for her children, and would not be comforted, because they are not.


Throughout the history of the world Satan attempted to destroy the seed of the woman promised in Genesis 3:15.

Is the passage about Eve, or the women on the ark, or the women in the twelve tribes, or is it about Mary?
The answer is... Yes.


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Spiritual Jew said:

seems that you are relating the promise being given to David 1000 years previously to the 1000 years mentioned in Revelation 20? I don't see how that can make sense. It speaks of Christ reigning for a thousand years, so the thousand years began when He began to reign and not 1000 years prior.

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1.) The best explanation I have found so far as to why it is specifically the 1,000 years and not 500 or 2,000 or 10,000 or 10,000 x 10,000 or some other number, comes from catholic amil theologian steve Hahn. Hahn muses that it is called the 1,000 years because it points to the promise made to David in regards to Christ, literally 1,000 years prior.

2.) The passage does not limit Christ's reign to the 1,000 year period. It is those that partake in the 1st resurrection that reign with Christ for 1,000 years.

3.) I never said Christ's reign began 1,000 years prior to his 1st advent

The perfect tense in greek is defined as a completed action with ongoing results. That is how I view the 1,000 years.

Do you disagree with any of the following:

Christ's 1st advent resulted in satan being bound (Matthew 12:29, revelation 12:10)

Christ's 1st advent resulted in satan being cast out (John 12:31-32)

Christ's 1st advent resulted in satan coming (John 14:30)

Christ's 1st advent resulted in the elect partaking in the 1st resurrection (who is Christ) to never be hurt by the 2nd death and to become a kingdom of priests (1 peter 2:9, ephesians 2:5-6, John 11:25-26).

Spiritual Jew said:

I'm sorry, but I don't find that to be a plausible intepretation of the 1,000 years at all. To see the thousand years as being symbolic is one thing, but to not see it as representing a time period with a beginning and end doesn't line up with the fact that it is said to begin with the reign of Christ and binding of Satan and it ends when Satan is loosed.

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Where do the gospels and epistles mention satan as ever not being bound following the cross?

The gospel and epistolic narrative, is that Christ destroyed the works of the devil (bound him), which resulted in him being cast out. When he was cast out, he hindered, deceived, persecuted and prowled. Therefore, I interpret revelation 20 through this lens, and not the other way around.

I believe the works of the devil have been permanently destroyed, do you?

Spiritual Jew said:

You said "I view satan's release from the pit, for a little while, in revelation 20:7-9, as a reference to Satan's casting out of heaven at Christ's ascension to deceive and persecute.", so that made it seem like you were saying he was bound from deceiving and persecuting and then was able to deceive and persecute after being released.

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Satan being cast out TO deceive and persecute is the polar opposite of satan being bound FROM deceiving and persecuting.

Spiritual Jew said:

Do you not believe that Christ's death and resurrection had a tremendous impact on Satan?

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I don't believe there will ever be a time where satan can stop the gospel. Revelation 20 makes no mention of satan being able to stop the gospel after his release from the abyss.

BABerean2 said:

The beginning of Revelation 12 is about the seed promise found fulfilled in Matthew 1:1, and Galatians 3:16.
The seed promise starts with the promise God made to Satan in Genesis 3:15.
Revelation 12 starts with the vision given to Joseph of the twelve tribes, who would fulfill the seed promise.
The passage also contains the time period when Joseph took the baby Jesus and His mother to Egypt to escape Herod.

The Flight to Egypt

Mat 2:13 And when they were departed, behold, the angel of the Lord appeareth to Joseph in a dream, saying, Arise, and take the young child and his mother, and flee into Egypt, and be thou there until I bring thee word: for Herod will seek the young child to destroy him.
Mat 2:14 When he arose, he took the young child and his mother by night, and departed into Egypt:
Mat 2:15 And was there until the death of Herod: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Out of Egypt have I called my son.

Herod Kills the Children

Mat 2:16 Then Herod, when he saw that he was mocked of the wise men, was exceeding wroth, and sent forth, and slew all the children that were in Bethlehem, and in all the coasts thereof, from two years old and under, according to the time which he had diligently enquired of the wise men.
Mat 2:17 Then was fulfilled that which was spoken by Jeremy the prophet, saying,
Mat 2:18 In Rama was there a voice heard, lamentation, and weeping, and great mourning, Rachel weeping for her children, and would not be comforted, because they are not.


Throughout the history of the world Satan attempted to destroy the seed of the woman promised in Genesis 3:15.

Is the passage about Eve, or the women on the ark, or the women in the twelve tribes, or is it about Mary?
The answer is... Yes.


.

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Interesting interpretation, a lot of good stuff here. However, revelation is clear that the Dragon is cast out to pursue the woman out AFTER she gives birth.

Revelation 12:13-14 And when the dragon saw that he had been thrown to the earth, he pursued the woman who had given birth to the male child. But the woman was given two wings of a great eagle to fly from the presence of the serpent to her place in the wilderness, where she was nourished for a time, and times, and half a time.

Does Jesus not say satan is cast out in association with his death and resurrection in John 12? Does Jesus not say satan is coming in John 14?

Timtofly said:

Revelation 12 shows the woman with 2 different times there was safety. 3.5 years at the birth. Then the times, time, and half a time, at the Second Coming. The 70th week was split.

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I am not disagreeing in principle.

before the 7 years begin - little horn>Antichrist>beast

During Revelation 12:6, the 1260 days, first half of the 7 years - little horn>Antichrist>beast
During Revelation 12:14, time/times/half time, second half of the 7 years - little horn>Antichrist>beast

claninja said:

1.) The best explanation I have found so far as to why it is specifically the 1,000 years and not 500 or 2,000 or 10,000 or 10,000 x 10,000 or some other number, comes from catholic amil theologian steve Hahn. Hahn muses that it is called the 1,000 years because it points to the promise made to David in regards to Christ, literally 1,000 years prior.

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I would be hesitant to trust a Catholic regarding doctrine. But, anyway, I simply disagree with that view. Not much else I can say. I see the thousand years as clearly beginning with His reign and the binding of Satan and it ends when Satan is loosed (doesn't mean He stops reigning then, of course, but he allows Satan a brief time to be unrestrained).

2.) The passage does not limit Christ's reign to the 1,000 year period. It is those that partake in the 1st resurrection that reign with Christ for 1,000 years.

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What is your understanding of the first resurrection and what is your understanding of who takes part in the first resurrection and who reigns with Him?

I never said that His reign is limited to the thousand years. He will reign forever, of course, just like it says in Isaiah 9:6-7. He will deliver the kingdom to the Father when He returns (1 Cor 15:24, Matt 13:40-43), but He will then reign with the Father forever from that point on.

3.) I never said Christ's reign began 1,000 years prior to his 1st advent

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I never said that you did. But you made mention of the promise to David 1,000 years earlier. I don't see how that relates to the thousand years of Revelation 20.

The perfect tense in greek is defined as a completed action with ongoing results. That is how I view the 1,000 years.

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That means the 1000 years is ongoing, but you believe it ended long ago (or you believe it isn't an actual time period - honestly, I can't make sense of your view).

Do you disagree with any of the following:

Christ's 1st advent resulted in satan being bound (Matthew 12:29, revelation 12:10)

Christ's 1st advent resulted in satan being cast out (John 12:31-32)

Christ's 1st advent resulted in satan coming (John 14:30)

Christ's 1st advent resulted in the elect partaking in the 1st resurrection (who is Christ) to never be hurt by the 2nd death and to become a kingdom of priests (1 peter 2:9, ephesians 2:5-6, John 11:25-26).

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I don't disagree with any of those, but I disagree with your understanding that Satan being cast out of heaven is related to him being loosed. I don't agree with that at all.

Where do the gospels and epistles mention satan as ever not being bound following the cross?

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I believe Paul alluded to Satan's little season in 2 Thessalonians 2. He referred to a time before Christ's coming and our being gathered to Him when there will be a mass falling away from the faith and it will all be "after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish" (2 Thess 2:9-10).

The gospel and epistolic narrative, is that Christ destroyed the works of the devil (bound him), which resulted in him being cast out. When he was cast out, he hindered, deceived, persecuted and prowled. Therefore, I interpret revelation 20 through this lens, and not the other way around.

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None of that means he was able to stop the gospel from going out into the whole world giving the hope of forgiveness of sins and eternal life that the world never had before.

I believe the works of the devil have been permanently destroyed, do you?

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In terms of him keeping the world in spiritual darkness as he was able to do before Christ's death and resurection, yes. But, he will be given a little season in the future where he is no longer restrained, and, again, I believe Paul alludes to that in 2 Thessalonians 2.

Satan being cast out TO deceive and persecute is the polar opposite of satan being bound FROM deceiving and persecuting.

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Here you go again with claiming he was bound from persecuting. No, he was not. It does not say he is bound from persecuting. Don't add what isn't there. It says he was bound from "deceiving the nations".

I don't believe there will ever be a time where satan can stop the gospel. Revelation 20 makes no mention of satan being able to stop the gospel after his release from the abyss.

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I believe it will be because of the mass falling away from the faith that the gospel will be severely weakened. I'm already seeing this today where the church is very weak and not having the kind of impact on the world that it should. I have seen a continual increase in wickedness in the world as time goes on.

BABerean2 said:

I said the beginning of Revelation 12 is a history lesson containing the fall of Satan, and the birth and death of Christ.
Christ was not born, nor did He die in the Book of Genesis.

In my humble opinion, Revelation 12:11 occurs during the period shortly before the Second Coming of Christ.

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In that case, maybe I don't necessarily disagree with you after all, as long as this is not suggesting that the war in heaven, and satan then getting cast unto the earth, that this was meaning during some of the days recorded in Genesis somewhere.

Revelation 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

When I used to debate those that propose a gap between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2, I can't recall how many times I noted them using Revelation 12:7-9 in support of this alleged gap. Even if there was a gap, though there clearly wasn't, it still would have nothing to do with what is recorded in Revelation 12:7-9. The war in heaven either happened around the time of the ascension, or that it is still future. I tend to lean towards the former. It certainly didn't happen during some of the days recorded in Genesis or earlier, the fact it has to involve the manchild, since it is the woman that brought forth the manchild that the dragon sets out to persecute once he sees he has been cast unto the earth. There was no manchild during some of the days recorded in Genesis or earlier.