John Helpher

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regularly be telling the lost about their Saviour, Jesus Christ. They will love others self-sacrificially and in a holy, truthful way.

This is the most accurate part of your post because it's consistent with what Jesus taught. He didn't teach that other stuff about naughty words and drugs.

But, you can't really say that you're telling the lost about their savior and loving others, while you're also busy working for money. This is precisely why Jesus said that we cannot work for God and money at the same time without cheating on one or the other. He said God is one master and money is the other master . He said we would love one and despise the other (Matthew 6:24). He said we should not allow worry about even the most basic necessities like food and clothing stop us from stepping out in faith (Matthew 6:25-31). This is precisely why you brought up the "salvation by works" argument.

If I had been saying the same kind of stuff you say about naughty language and reading the Bible regularly, you never would have mentioned salvation by works, even though those things are works that are dependent on the choices we make. We choose to use naughty words and we choose to read our Bible; those are things we do. You don't have a problem with those works, but you definitely had a problem with my comments about chasing money.

Obviously, humans must do something to demonstrate that they want to be saved; even you would acknowledge this because otherwise all humanity would be saved by default. So, what must we humans do to demonstrate that we do want salvation? We must be born again. What does that look like?

When Jesus said, "follow me", his followers left their jobs, forsook all, and started preaching the gospel full time (Matthew 4:18-22, Luke 5:10-11, Luke 5:27-28) . They lived together (Acts 2:44-45). They traveled together (Luke 8:1). They worked together and shared all things in common (Acts 4:32-34).

Certainly, that would be a more radical life-style change than simply refraining from naughty words. This change was so intense, so radical that the worldly people around them referred to it as "turning the world upside down" (Acts 17:6). You don't turn the world upside down by continuing to serve Caesar while professing with your lips that Jesus is Lord.

Being born again isn't just some ritual. It's not some religious formula. It's a complete change of lifestyle that can only be achieved by listening to the master and obeying him (1 Peter 1:23). Peter says we're born again by the word of God. The Bible says Jesus is the word of God (Revelation 19:30, John 1:14). Jesus says that his words will judge us (John 12:48). This effort of yours to make Jesus' teachings some kind of secondary or lesser issue is not consistent with what Jesus himself said about his own teachings. He said, "If you obey my teachings, then you will know the truth and the truth will set you free." (John 8:31-32)

From the moment of our physical birth we're indoctrinated into a system where money makes the world go round. We learn that our value is found in how much money we can make. If someone is not willing to pay, then you don't work. That's the system. Yes, we do a bit of volunteer work here and there or give to charity now and then, but the bottom line is that we never forsake the worldly system; we always go back to serving mammon because hey, we gotta put food on the table, right? We believe this so strongly because this is what we're born into.

But Jesus is saying we must be born again into a new set of values where money does not make the world go round and the value of life is not based on how much we can accumulate or how much payment we can haggle for our time and efforts. We must learn all over again what it means to be citizens in the kingdom of Heaven. This change is so revolutionary and so fundamental that we cannot do it while still hanging on to our old life. We must let go of all that we learned in the system. It really is like becoming a child again, going to a new school and learning new values.

This is what the teachings of Jesus represent; freedom from a lesser, perverse system. This is why it is so important to obey him. His teachings are the values of the kingdom of Heaven. We learn what it means to be a citizen through the exercise of those values. It can be scary to let go of everything we've learned as children of the worldly system, so much so that most of us believe we'd die if we did not continue serving mammon and that the world would crumble into chaos. But is that really true? Would humanity really die if we started working for love instead of money? This is why Jesus talked about freedom. This fear enslaves us and his solution for breaking those chains was to obey his teachings.

No amount of religious jargon about naughty words can be a substitute for that freedom.
 
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aiki

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This is the most accurate part of your post because it's consistent with what Jesus taught. He didn't teach that other stuff about naughty words and drugs.

??? Jesus, who is God, inspired all of the New Testament. Virtually the entire New Testament contains "what Jesus taught." Besides, what Jesus taught is recorded for us by his disciples. They are telling us in the Gospels what Jesus said, just as Paul, James, Peter and John do in their various letters. We must trust that the Gospel writers have accurately recounted what Jesus said and did, just as we must trust that the other books of the NT are also divinely-inspired, accurate records of Christian belief and practice. So, why put the teachings of Jesus recorded in the Gospels above the teachings found in the epistles? It is Matthew, Mark, Luke and John who are telling us what Jesus said. Why trust them over Paul or Peter or James whose writings also were regarded by the Early Church as divinely-inspired?

But, you can't really say that you're telling the lost about their savior and loving others, while you're also busy working for money. This is precisely why Jesus said that we cannot work for God and money at the same time without cheating on one or the other. He said God is one master and money is the other master . He said we would love one and despise the other (Matthew 6:24). He said we should not allow worry about even the most basic necessities like food and clothing stop us from stepping out in faith (Matthew 6:25-31). This is precisely why you brought up the "salvation by works" argument.

I brought up the works-salvation issue because it is false and seemed to be what you were advocating.

Jesus spoke of serving "mammon" not of earning it. Here's the context of his words about money/wealth:

Matthew 6:19-24
19 "Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy, and where thieves break in and steal.
20 "But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust destroys, and where thieves do not break in or steal;
21 for where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.
22 "The eye is the lamp of the body; so then if your eye is clear, your whole body will be full of light.
23 "But if your eye is bad, your whole body will be full of darkness. If then the light that is in you is darkness, how great is the darkness!
24 "No one can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and wealth.


It's pretty plain here that when Jesus spoke of serving wealth (or "mammon" in the KJV), he meant loving devotion to it of the sort one is to show to God. It is not wealth per se, or working to earn it, that is wrong, but being consumed with wealth such that one comes to hate God. This is exactly what Paul wrote:

1 Timothy 6:10
10 For the love of money is a root of all sorts of evil, and some by longing for it have wandered away from the faith and pierced themselves with many griefs.


And so, working to earn a living is not only never forbidden in Scripture but is, in fact, commanded:

Acts 18:1-3
1 After these things he (Paul) left Athens and went to Corinth.
2 And he found a Jew named Aquila, a native of Pontus, having recently come from Italy with his wife Priscilla, because Claudius had commanded all the Jews to leave Rome. He came to them,
3 and because he was of the same trade, he stayed with them and they were working, for by trade they were tent-makers.


1 Corinthians 4:12
12 and we toil, working with our own hands...


Ephesians 4:28
28 He who steals must steal no longer; but rather he must labor, performing with his own hands what is good, so that he will have something to share with one who has need.


2 Thessalonians 3:11-12
11 For we hear that some among you are leading an undisciplined life, doing no work at all, but acting like busybodies.
12 Now such persons we command and exhort in the Lord Jesus Christ to work in quiet fashion and eat their own bread.


2 Thessalonians 3:10
10 For even when we were with you, we used to give you this order: if anyone is not willing to work, then he is not to eat, either.


Jesus said to "seek first the kingdom of God" but he did not say to seek only the kingdom of God. God's kingdom ought to be the believer's first priority but this doesn't preclude in any way working to supply for one's material needs. In fact, the use of the word "first" implies an order of priority, indicating that there is a second, third, fourth place, and so on, in which things stand to one another.

If I had been saying the same kind of stuff you say about naughty language and reading the Bible regularly, you never would have mentioned salvation by works, even though those things are works that are dependent on the choices we make.

This is an assumption you're making here. And it is wrong. See above.

You don't have a problem with those works, but you definitely had a problem with my comments about chasing money.

I have a problem with your teaching your mistaken notions about "mammon" to the new believers that may visit this sub-forum.

When Jesus said, "follow me", his followers left their jobs, forsook all, and started preaching the gospel full time (Matthew 4:18-22, Luke 5:10-11, Luke 5:27-28) . They lived together (Acts 2:44-45). They traveled together (Luke 8:1). They worked together and shared all things in common (Acts 4:32-34).

Are you an apostle, charged by Christ himself with the establishment of the Early Church? Have you been imbued with special, supernatural power, proving your right to speak for God as His apostle?

Paul worked. So did other Christians mentioned in Acts. They did not all sit around in some sort of monastic, spiritual commune, forsaking physical work to do nothing but preach the Gospel. See above. There were a select few who were entirely occupied with establishing, leading and teaching the Early Church, but the vast majority of Christians were not of this group.

Being born again isn't just some ritual. It's not some religious formula. It's a complete change of lifestyle that can only be achieved by listening to the master and obeying him (1 Peter 1:23).

No, what you're describing here is not being born-again but the consequence of being born-again. A description of being born-again can be found in John 3:3-6 and Titus 3:5-8.

Peter says we're born again by the word of God.

Only insofar as it gives to us the truth of the Gospel by which we all come to know of the Saviour, our need of him, and the way to enter into relationship with God through him.

From the moment of our physical birth we're indoctrinated into a system where money makes the world go round. We learn that our value is found in how much money we can make. If someone is not willing to pay, then you don't work. That's the system. Yes, we do a bit of volunteer work here and there or give to charity now and then, but the bottom line is that we never forsake the worldly system; we always go back to serving mammon because hey, we gotta put food on the table, right? We believe this so strongly because this is what we're born into.

The idea of working to supply for your material needs is entirely biblical. See above.

Proverbs 10:4-5
4 Poor is he who works with a negligent hand, But the hand of the diligent makes rich.
5 He who gathers in summer is a son who acts wisely, But he who sleeps in harvest is a son who acts shamefully.

Proverbs 12:24
24 The hand of the diligent will rule, But the slack hand will be put to forced labor.


Proverbs 13:4
4 The soul of the sluggard craves and gets nothing, But the soul of the diligent is made fat.


Proverbs 22:29
29 Do you see a man skilled in his work? He will stand before kings; He will not stand before obscure men.


Proverbs 31:12-31
12 She does him good and not evil All the days of her life.
13 She looks for wool and flax And works with her hands in delight.
14 She is like merchant ships; She brings her food from afar.
15 She rises also while it is still night And gives food to her household And portions to her maidens.
16 She considers a field and buys it; From her earnings she plants a vineyard.
17 She girds herself with strength And makes her arms strong.
18 She senses that her gain is good; Her lamp does not go out at night.
19 She stretches out her hands to the distaff, And her hands grasp the spindle.
20 She extends her hand to the poor, And she stretches out her hands to the needy.
21 She is not afraid of the snow for her household, For all her household are clothed with scarlet.
22 She makes coverings for herself; Her clothing is fine linen and purple.
23 Her husband is known in the gates, When he sits among the elders of the land.
24 She makes linen garments and sells them, And supplies belts to the tradesmen.
25 Strength and dignity are her clothing, And she smiles at the future.
26 She opens her mouth in wisdom, And the teaching of kindness is on her tongue.
27 She looks well to the ways of her household, And does not eat the bread of idleness.
28 Her children rise up and bless her; Her husband also, and he praises her, saying:
29 "Many daughters have done nobly, But you excel them all."
30 Charm is deceitful and beauty is vain, But a woman who fears the LORD, she shall be praised.
31 Give her the product of her hands, And let her works praise her in the gates.


But Jesus is saying we must be born again into a new set of values where money does not make the world go round and the value of life is not based on how much we can accumulate or how much payment we can haggle for our time and efforts. We must learn all over again what it means to be citizens in the kingdom of Heaven.

It is a false dichotomy you've offered here. There are other options than just thinking "money makes the world go 'round" or "forget working for money, work only for the Lord." One can live unto the Lord, putting his kingdom first AND be gainfully employed. It is not earning a living the Christian must eschew but doing so because one loves wealth. See above.
 
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John Helpher

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Paul worked. So did other Christians mentioned in Acts. They did not all sit around in some sort of monastic, spiritual commune, forsaking physical work to do nothing but preach the Gospel.

No one is saying we should sit around., The command is to seek God's kingdom first by going into all the world to teach others to do the same. You can't do that while you're busy working for a profit.

Referring to it as salvation by works doesn't change the fact that Jesus expects obedience.
 
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coffee4u

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No one is saying we should sit around., The command is to seek God's kingdom first by going into all the world to teach others to do the same. You can't do that while you're busy working for a profit.

Referring to it as salvation by works doesn't change the fact that Jesus expects obedience.

And part of that obedience is providing for your family.
1 Timothy 5:8
But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel.
 
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John Helpher

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And part of that obedience is providing for your family.
1 Timothy 5:8
But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel.

Sure, but remember the context of Paul's letters; he was writing to a Church which was already living communally and sharing all things in common. This proviso about a man providing for his own family was an admonition against the temptation to become lazy and/or dump family responsibilities onto others in the community.
 
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coffee4u

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Sure, but remember the context of Paul's letters; he was writing to a Church which was already living communally and sharing all things in common. This proviso about a man providing for his own family was an admonition against the temptation to become lazy and/or dump family responsibilities onto others in the community.

But isn't that what you were encouraging? That men should simply quit their jobs? There is a difference in paying your electricity bill and loving money.
 
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John Helpher

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isn't that what you were encouraging? That men should simply quit their jobs?

No, you've misunderstood. I'm not encouraging people to quit their jobs. I'm promoting the teachings of Jesus. He is the one who called people to stop giving their time to the pursuit of money and, instead, start working for love. They are his teachings. I'm simply saying that if you want to be a follower of Jesus, there is an expectation for what that means.

When Jesus said, "follow me", his followers left their jobs, forsook all, and started preaching the gospel full time (Matthew 4:18-22, Luke 5:10-11, Luke 5:27-28) . After Jesus made this same ultimatum to a rich man (who ended up rejecting the teaching), Peter declares that they have forsaken all, and Jesus goes on to explain that they will be rewarded. (Luke 18:28)

Aiki has suggested that this isn't for everyone, but rather only for a few, select people. But, in Luke 14 Jesus reiterates this principle and he uses a word which clearly shows that this is not only for some of his followers. "So likewise, whosoever he be of you that forsaketh not all that he hath, he cannot be my disciple."

Do you see that word, "whosoever"? It means any person. It's the same whosoever that we see in John 3:16. We understand that the salvation referred to in John 3 is not just for some of Jesus' followers, but rather for any person who "believes in him". The principles and values of the kingdom of Heaven are not just for some people; any person who claims to follow Jesus must adhere to the values he sets forth.

Again, these disciples were commanded to go into all the world teaching others to do the same thing:

Matthew 28
19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:


20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.


That's exactly what happened on the day of pentecost via the leadership of the disciples; thousands of new believers sold everything they had, shared all things in common, and started working for the Kingdom of Heaven full time. They lived together (Acts 2:44-45). They worked together and shared all things in common (Acts 4:32-34).

In fact, they worked so hard that others said of them, "the people who have turned the world upside down have also come here..." (Acts 17:16)

This is what Christians are supposed to be doing, but over time the message has become diluted. Peopled wanted the good feelings that come with salvation and love, but they didn't want the discipline and accountability. It's just like Jesus said, "why do you call me, 'Lord', but do not obey me?"

Working for love can be very difficult at times, especially because doing so causes us to confront our various problems, especially in the area of greed and materialism. This is why people like Aiki have no problem with works like refraining from naughty words, reading the Bible, and ritual prayers asking Jesus into your heart, but suddenly cry, "salvation by works" when it comes to dealing with greed. It's a shield against any real change.
 
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aiki

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When Jesus said, "follow me", his followers left their jobs, forsook all, and started preaching the gospel full time (Matthew 4:18-22, Luke 5:10-11, Luke 5:27-28) .

Only of the Twelve do we read of disciples of Christ leaving their work to follow him. And they didn't preach the Gospel full-time until after Christ had died, had risen from the dead, and had ascended into heaven. Of no other disciple will you read that they quit their job to follow Jesus. And, as I pointed out, even Paul, the second greatest contributor to the New Testament, laboured as a tentmaker while serving as an apostle.

After Jesus made this same ultimatum to a rich man (who ended up rejecting the teaching), Peter declares that they have forsaken all, and Jesus goes on to explain that they will be rewarded. (Luke 18:28)

Why did Jesus speak to the Rich Young Ruler about his wealth? Because the heart of the young man was caught by riches and Jesus knew it. So, Jesus presses the young man in the one area that would keep him from entering God's kingdom. Instead of going on to say that all must do as he told the young man to do, however, Jesus remarks only that wealth is a great hindrance to entering the kingdom. Jesus does NOT say that forsaking gainful employment and the possession of money was necessary to being one of his disciples, or even advisable.

Aiki has suggested that this isn't for everyone, but rather only for a few, select people. But, in Luke 14 Jesus reiterates this principle and he uses a word which clearly shows that this is not only for some of his followers. "So likewise, whosoever he be of you that forsaketh not all that he hath, he cannot be my disciple."

So, what about the clothing the disciples wore? Did they literally give up all they had - which would include their clothing - and walk about naked? No. Jesus himself wore clothes. Clearly, Jesus was not speaking about literally spurning all possessions. As I explained to you already, Jesus taught that it was the love of wealth, an avaricious devotion to it, that was to be avoided, not money itself. Paul taught the same thing. See my earlier posts.

In what sense, then, did Jesus mean that all who followed him must give up all they had? In context, his words to do so come as the conclusion to a brief teaching on counting the cost of following a particular course. Following Jesus would, at least for some of his followers, literally cost them everything. Some of Jesus's disciples, he knew, would die for their allegiance to him. And so, to his audience, Jesus urged an attitude of total self-sacrifice in following him. Their allegiance to him had to take priority over all other things in their lives, even to the point of giving everything up in martyrdom, as some would have to do.

But, again, Jesus did not literally require that those following him as disciples give up all they had. He did not make them strip off their clothes in obedience to his command, did he?

That's exactly what happened on the day of pentecost via the leadership of the disciples; thousands of new believers sold everything they had, shared all things in common, and started working for the Kingdom of Heaven full time. They lived together (Acts 2:44-45). They worked together and shared all things in common (Acts 4:32-34).

Did thousands do as you say they did here? Where is that written, exactly? And what happened when all the pooled resources of the Christians were eventually consumed? Did they just go about preaching the Gospel 'til they all starved to death? How were the resources of the Early Church renewed if not by Christians working? And where does it say in Scripture that all those who held things in common all went about preaching the Gospel full time?

We know the first believers did work, as I showed you from Scripture in an earlier post. Even Paul, as I said, laboured as a tentmaker with Aquilla and Priscilla.

In fact, they worked so hard that others said of them, "the people who have turned the world upside down have also come here..." (Acts 17:16)

This was not a reference to the diligence of the Christians in preaching the Gospel but to the content and effect of what it was they preached. You're being a bit slippery here with Scripture, I think.

Working for love can be very difficult at times, especially because doing so causes us to confront our various problems, especially in the area of greed and materialism. This is why people like Aiki have no problem with works like refraining from naughty words, reading the Bible, and ritual prayers asking Jesus into your heart, but suddenly cry, "salvation by works" when it comes to dealing with greed. It's a shield against any real change.

Again, making these sorts of nasty, personal digs just reflects badly on you, not me. You have no knowledge whatever of the actual character of my living. None. But, here you are anyway, suggesting very uncharitable things about me. Is this ugly treatment of other believers "working for love"? Doesn't look like it to me. Read 1 Corinthians 13, or Ephesians 4:32, and you'll see why I say this.
 
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coffee4u

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No, you've misunderstood. I'm not encouraging people to quit their jobs. I'm promoting the teachings of Jesus. He is the one who called people to stop giving their time to the pursuit of money and, instead, start working for love. They are his teachings. I'm simply saying that if you want to be a follower of Jesus, there is an expectation for what that means.

When Jesus said, "follow me", his followers left their jobs, forsook all, and started preaching the gospel full time (Matthew 4:18-22, Luke 5:10-11, Luke 5:27-28) . After Jesus made this same ultimatum to a rich man (who ended up rejecting the teaching), Peter declares that they have forsaken all, and Jesus goes on to explain that they will be rewarded. (Luke 18:28)

Aiki has suggested that this isn't for everyone, but rather only for a few, select people. But, in Luke 14 Jesus reiterates this principle and he uses a word which clearly shows that this is not only for some of his followers. "So likewise, whosoever he be of you that forsaketh not all that he hath, he cannot be my disciple."

Do you see that word, "whosoever"? It means any person. It's the same whosoever that we see in John 3:16. We understand that the salvation referred to in John 3 is not just for some of Jesus' followers, but rather for any person who "believes in him". The principles and values of the kingdom of Heaven are not just for some people; any person who claims to follow Jesus must adhere to the values he sets forth.

Again, these disciples were commanded to go into all the world teaching others to do the same thing:

Matthew 28
19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:


20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.


That's exactly what happened on the day of pentecost via the leadership of the disciples; thousands of new believers sold everything they had, shared all things in common, and started working for the Kingdom of Heaven full time. They lived together (Acts 2:44-45). They worked together and shared all things in common (Acts 4:32-34).

In fact, they worked so hard that others said of them, "the people who have turned the world upside down have also come here..." (Acts 17:16)

This is what Christians are supposed to be doing, but over time the message has become diluted. Peopled wanted the good feelings that come with salvation and love, but they didn't want the discipline and accountability. It's just like Jesus said, "why do you call me, 'Lord', but do not obey me?"

Working for love can be very difficult at times, especially because doing so causes us to confront our various problems, especially in the area of greed and materialism. This is why people like Aiki have no problem with works like refraining from naughty words, reading the Bible, and ritual prayers asking Jesus into your heart, but suddenly cry, "salvation by works" when it comes to dealing with greed. It's a shield against any real change.

First you say "I'm not encouraging people to quit their jobs." Then in the next breath you are quoting "his followers left their jobs, forsook all, and started preaching the gospel full time"

If this isn't you saying we should all "quit our jobs" and walk around preaching (I am actually a stay at home homeschooling mum) then I don't know what else it is saying.

You do realize that was a very special, once in a lifetime opportunity for those men?

I think we all agree that a Christian should not love money, money should not be the master. But people need to work unless God has calls them specifically not to. People need to do what Jesus calls them to do, not what he calls you to do, or what he calls the guy next door to do. What he calls a person to do is unique to them.
 
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John Helpher

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First you say "I'm not encouraging people to quit their jobs." Then in the next breath you are quoting "his followers left their jobs, forsook all, and started preaching the gospel full time"

This is an important distinction. It's not me who has made these commands. Jesus did. If you believe it's just me making this stuff up, then you have a reason to reject the teachings. But, if it's Jesus who made these teachings, then you're not rejecting me, but rather him. Although, even that may be too soft of me to say. Perhaps I do have the authority to say, yes, I am telling you to stop giving your time to money and start giving your time to love, because Jesus did say, "If they receive you, they receive me" (Matthew 10:14). Of course, that was on the condition that we are actually promoting the teaching of Jesus, which, I am.

I think Samuel felt something similar when the children of Israel demanded a king like the other, worldly nations of the earth. When Samuel when to talk to God about it, he complained that the people had rejected his (Samuel's) authority as their tribal judge, but God reminded Samuel that it wasn't about him. They had not rejected Samuel; they had rejected God. I feel something similar. It's not really me you're rejecting. That's why I'm trying to make it clear that I am not the one telling you anything. I am only saying that there is an expectation for followers of Jesus. If you are not at least trying to meet that expectation, then you're not his follower. This is why Jesus himself said, "Why do you call me, 'Lord' but do not obey me" (Luke 6:46)?

I think we all agree that a Christian should not love money

Sure, everyone knows you're not supposed to love money, and yet a whole lot of money loving still happens. I mean, what else would you call it when you genuinely believe you cannot survive without it? What else do you call it when you spend 40+ hours per week trying to get more of it? What else do you call it when you demand it before you will help others? I mean, that's he lesson behind the parable of the sower. Look closely at the seed which feel among thorns: " And that which fell among thorns are they, which, when they have heard, go forth, and are choked with cares and riches and pleasures of this life, and bring no fruit to perfection." Luke 8:14

See, you've inserted a comment about how you're a stay-at-home mother. I don't want to presume on whatever your family status is, but let's say, hypothetically, there is a family; a husband, a wife, and a child. The husband goes off to work and the wife stays home to care for the child. When the husband comes home, he doesn't charge the wife a fee for the various duties he performs around the house, and neither does the wife charge the husband a fee for the various duties she performs. Why not? It's obvious right? Because they love each other. They are family. For either one of them to charge the other a fee for the various services they perform would be contrary to that love; it would make the relationship a material one.

In Jesus' kingdom we're all family; that's how we do it, except not only with those select few people who love us in return. As Jesus said:
" For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same? And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so? Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect."

We are all meant to be children in God's family. Jesus reiterates this lesson when Mary and Jesus' brothers comes to Jesus while he's preaching. There's a large crowd so they have some trouble reaching him, but they manage to spot one of his disciples who passed the message on to Jesus that his family was there to see him, but Jesus responds, "My mother and brothers are those who hear my teachings and obey them" (Luke 8:21). This is God's family and family doesn't require payment from one another for their services.

As Jesus said, "Thy will be done, on earth as it is in Heaven". We're supposed to pray this prayer. Do you think, in Heaven, the inhabitants there are charging one another a fee for their love? Of course not; that would be ridiculous. And yet, here Jesus is saying this is how it should be on earth. We are meant to demonstrate the values of the Kingdom of Heaven.

We can't do that while we're busy chasing after money like everyone else. We talk about God's grace, love, and mercy, and yet the world sees us chasing after money just like them, and they think, "these people like to make a flowery speech about grand ideals, but they don't really have anything different to what we have", which is exactly what Jesus meant when he said, "This people draw near to me with their lips, but their heart is far from me" (Matthew 15:8).

What he calls a person to do is unique to them.

This is called a convenient doctrine; we all follow God in our own little unique, special, independent way. With this kind of reasoning, you essentially make up your own religion. Jesus isn't the master who tells us what to do; rather he's just a religious figure-head who dishes out free tickets to heaven while we do whatever we want.

Jesus didn't say you make up your own unique relationship with him. He said, "If you love me, you will obey me". That's the standard. You may say, "God knows my heart" but this is what Jesus said about the heart:
Matthew 6:19-21
"Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal:


But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal:


For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.
"

Only a couple verse later he says this:
Matthew 6:24
"No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon".

Mammon is a term used to describe money and the things money can buy. You cannot serve both at the same time. He says you will love one and hate the other. This contempt is demonstrated through our actions. Any time we give to working for love demonstrates contempt for the worldly system of making a profit; Any time we spend working for money, we demonstrate our contempt toward working for love. They are opposing concepts. Promoting both only results in hypocrisy.
 
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coffee4u

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This is an important distinction. It's not me who has made these commands. Jesus did. If you believe it's just me making this stuff up, then you have a reason to reject the teachings. But, if it's Jesus who made these teachings, then you're not rejecting me, but rather him.

I am not saying that Jesus didn't say that, nor am I saying that verse is made up. What I am saying is you need all the verses on the topic to get the full picture.

And I will again post:
But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel.
Clearly God wants us to take care of our families not leave them destitute on the street, which is still appears you think we should do.

All of the Bible is Jesus speaking to us.
2 Timothy 3:16-17
16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17 so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.


I am only saying that there is an expectation for followers of Jesus. If you are not at least trying to meet that expectation, then you're not his follower. This is why Jesus himself said, "Why do you call me, 'Lord' but do not obey me" (Luke 6:46)?

The expectation is that you follow God's calling for you.
You have no idea what the guy next to you is being called to do,
or me,
or anyone else on this thread.
Only God knows what that is.

Sure, everyone knows you're not supposed to love money, and yet a whole lot of money loving still happens. I mean, what else would you call it when you genuinely believe you cannot survive without it? What else do you call it when you spend 40+ hours per week trying to get more of it? What else do you call it when you demand it before you will help others? I mean, that's he lesson behind the parable of the sower. Look closely at the seed which feel among thorns: " And that which fell among thorns are they, which, when they have heard, go forth, and are choked with cares and riches and pleasures of this life, and bring no fruit to perfection." Luke 8:14


Money has never been my main thought. Nor did I say people should chase after it. But earning a wage to pay your bills and to care for your children is not sinful, its expected.

Also just because someone seemingly has wealth does not automatically mean they are money hoarders or lovers of money either. They may in fact be secretly donating huge amounts or perhaps God has called them to do great things with that wealth-you don't know. It's wrong to assume you know things about people that you know nothing about. If a Christian you know personally has said and shown that they have a money issue and you are concerned about them, pray for them. pray that the Holy Spirit will convict them. But this doesn't sound like concern to me, but judgment.

Jesus didn't say you make up your own unique relationship with him. He said, "If you love me, you will obey me". That's the standard.

We are each unique and God treats us uniquely and calls us to different things.
4 There are different kinds of gifts, but the same Spirit distributes them. 5 There are different kinds of service, but the same Lord. 6 There are different kinds of working, but in all of them and in everyone it is the same God at work.
 
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Jaxxi

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I have always believed in God for as long as I could remember, but I don't ever remember having a life changing experience with him:a rapture dream, speaking in tongues, etc. Although I have heard him speak to me a few times and I have felt his presence once. I have repented of sin and have been baptized but I'm not sure if I have the holy spirit. How can I know if I'm truly born again? I am also struggling with being religious instead of spiritual (reading the Bible and praying because I have to, etc). How can I stop being religious and start being spiritual?
What is wrong with being religious? There is nothing wrong with that. Can you sin without your conscience talking to you? Personally I am proud of being religious. People have placed this negative stigma on religion because of some of the leaders who have corrupted the church ( with corruption in mind) and it is a shame. Religion is beautiful.
 
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Randy777

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I have always believed in God for as long as I could remember, but I don't ever remember having a life changing experience with him:a rapture dream, speaking in tongues, etc. Although I have heard him speak to me a few times and I have felt his presence once. I have repented of sin and have been baptized but I'm not sure if I have the holy spirit. How can I know if I'm truly born again? I am also struggling with being religious instead of spiritual (reading the Bible and praying because I have to, etc). How can I stop being religious and start being spiritual?
You will know from God Himself.

The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's children.

Ask the Lord in prayer for the gift or a sign that you have the gift. Like Jacob who wrestled with the angel don't let go until God has blessed you.
 
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JMV

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I have always believed in God for as long as I could remember, but I don't ever remember having a life changing experience with him:a rapture dream, speaking in tongues, etc. Although I have heard him speak to me a few times and I have felt his presence once. I have repented of sin and have been baptized but I'm not sure if I have the holy spirit. How can I know if I'm truly born again? I am also struggling with being religious instead of spiritual (reading the Bible and praying because I have to, etc). How can I stop being religious and start being spiritual?

"2/6/07 From YahuShua HaMashiach, Our Lord and Savior
The Word of The Lord Spoken to Timothy
For a Brother in Christ, and For All Those Who Have Ears to Hear

Thus says The Lord: It is written, that none shall enter The Kingdom of Heaven, unless they are born again. For all are born physically, of human parents, by great travail into a world of sin. So then to enter The Kingdom of Heaven, one must also be born again, of the Spirit, set apart from this world and from all that is sin.
My son, you are being born again even now, from the first moment you came to Me in repentance, even to this day. For I am faithful. And yet you ask, “How can this be?” questioning My words spoken to My servant, where I said, “You must be born again and again.” My son, I have spoken, and all I have written through My servant Timothy stands; no contradiction found. Rather it is the understanding of men, which remains lacking. Therefore if one comes to Me in repentance, with sincere remorse over their sins, they shall surely be born again - even again and again, as they strive to make their repentance full.

Yet I tell you a mystery: It has been appointed to those who are born twice to die once, but by no means shall they die a second time. Yet those who do not come to Me in repentance shall be born once and die twice. Yet there are some among this generation who shall never taste death, having already passed from judgment into life. Thus to My chosen elect, there is a death of the body unto resurrection. Yet for those still living at My return, there is a death of another kind - the crucifying of your old man with his sinful ways, the putting on of the new man who is renewed in the knowledge of the Truth, restored in the image of Him who created him.


Thus when one is born into this world,
The child and the mother suffer the pangs
Of childbirth, until the birth is complete...

In the same way, those born of the Spirit shall suffer travail;
For they are not yet separated from their flesh
Or this world, in which they continually stumble...

So then being born again is the process by which
You are restored in the image of God,
A continual washing, until you come into glory.


My son, I died for the forgiveness of your sins - those of today, yesterday, and those sins of tomorrow. Yet man does continually stumble over his flesh, being tempted in a world filled with sin. And so he must continually come to Me, and even seventy times seven times shall I cleanse him and lift him up. And so to Timothy, I have spoken and said that he must be born again and again, until I present him to The Father clean.
This is not rebirth in the Spirit again and again, but rather the process by which Timothy sheds the skin of this world, as he crucifies his old man with his sinful ways and puts on this new man I have given him, in Me and of Me. And so there is one rebirth in the Spirit (the moment one’s heart is irrevocably changed), but many rebirths of man’s spirit, because of his continual sin, fear, doubt and temptation. Therefore as it was with My servant, Sha’ul (also known as Paul), so likewise shall it be with My servants of this day: You must die daily.

And still in another place you ask, concerning those who teach in My name, “Why must these become, again, children of God?” This is not rebirth in the Spirit, but rather a correction and a washing. For these have strayed off the path, though they claim to follow Me. And when one strays off the path and follows after the world, teaching in the churches of men doctrines of demons, I ask you, what father have they chosen and whose child have they become? And so with a firm hand, I will surely correct and discipline all those I love, so they may return to Me and become again children of God. For indeed, small is the gate and narrow is the way into Heaven. And no man who thinks himself righteous may enter, called Christian or otherwise.
So then, My son, you are reborn in the Spirit and have embraced the new heart I have given you, but by no means is this birth complete. For you are indeed that fruit which is still ripening, as you have said. In this you have spoken well, by the wisdom I have given you. For as it is written: I am The True Vine, and My Father is The Vinedresser. Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear even more fruit.


My son, you have bore much fruit in My name,
And shall continue to do so until the day I finish you,
The day you become completely new...

For as a babe is born naked and wrapped in soft linens,
So also shall My people be reborn -
Naked, void of the things of this world,
Clothed in fine linens of white...

Behold, the corruptible has put on incorruption,
And the mortal, immortality, as it is written!...

Says The Lord."
 

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