John Calvin versus the rest of early Christian

Bible Highlighter said:

You are for reformed theology. So you will look to Calvnist writings in the past.

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Not true at all. I have never read a word Calvin wrote.
However, I do believe what the Bible says and I find Reformed
teachings to be more accurate than Arminian teachings.

But I just look to the Bible as my sole authority and ask God for the understanding. I do not impose a certain set of beliefs from men upon the text of the Bible.

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You are being very naive if you think you are not influenced
by the doctrines of previous saints. There is nothing wrong
with agreeing with the understanding of previous saints as
long as you understand they were fallible.


I read the Bible for about two years BEFORE I ever read any
church history or any Reformed Confessions or Creeds. However,
when I did read things outside the Bible I was able to see some
doctrines were Biblical and others were not.


Jim

5thKingdom said:

Not true at all. I have never read a word Calvin wrote.
However, I do believe what the Bible says and I find Reformed
teachings to be more accurate than Arminian teachings.





You are being very naive if you think you are not influenced
by the doctrines of previous saints. There is nothing wrong
with agreeing with the understanding of previous saints as
long as you understand they were fallible.


I read the Bible for about two years BEFORE I ever read any
church history or any Reformed Confessions or Creeds. However,
when I did read things outside the Bible I was able to see some
doctrines were Biblical and others were not.


Jim

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No offense, but I believe Calvinism is a club for those who fit a certain personality type or it fits a person who has made certain cold unloving choices in life. This in my view can sometimes lead a person to think that things are not always fair in life (i.e. there is no true justice sometimes). So this cold mindset will naturally lead one to read the Scriptures in the wrong way ahead of time before encountering Calvinism based on their personality type and or the bad decisions they make in life. For to hold to Unconditional Election is an attack upon God's good character revealed in the Bible. It's not morally good to hold to Unconditional Election because God is creating many for the specific purpose to be tortured alive in flames for all eternity. That is their purpose in life that they could not have changed by their own free will choice. God wanted to create a whole bunch of life so as to cause them great pain and suffering. Not very nice or moral. It’s not the loving God I serve. But tell that to a person who does not understand how this is wrong and they will never get what your talking about.

Bible Highlighter said:

No offense, but I believe Calvinism is a club for those who fit a certain personality type or it fits a person who has made certain cold unloving choices in life.

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First, of course you MEANT that to be offensive... why pretend
otherwise? Can you not just be honest?


Secondly, I could say Arminianism is a crutch for those who
are not able to submit to the Biblical Gospel of Sovereign Grace,
and INSIST on a synergistic system where they can save themself.

This in my view can sometimes lead a person to think that things are not always fair in life (i.e. there is no true justice sometimes). So this cold mindset will naturally lead one to read the Scriptures in the wrong way ahead of time before encountering Calvinism...

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I hate to break your bubble buddy... Those who believe
in salvation by election find it MORE than "just"...
so you are only creating a strawman.


And, the Bible is very clear:


(1) JESUS taught [John 6]... 1500 years before Calvin was born,
that NO MAN can come to Him unless the Father first "draws" them
and ALL MEN the Father draws "shall come" to Him and He will
lose NONE of them


In your crutch of Arminian heresy you pretend the TEXT says
ALL MEN can come to Jesus... but SOME MEN will be lost.


(2) Romans 3 teaches... 1500 years before Calvin was born,
that NO MAN (no, not even one) will ever "seek God" unless
they have been regenerated.


In your crutch of Arminian heresy you pretend the TEXT says
ALL MEN can "seek God"


(3) Romans 9 teaches... 1500 years before Calvin was born,
that God CREATES some men to be "vessels of mercy" (saved)
and other men to be "vessels of wrath" (unsaved)


In you crutch of Arminian heresy you pretend the TEXT says
(well, you don't really HAVE a response to that TEXT)


(4) In Matthew 13... 1500 years before Calvin was born,
Jesus teaches the church consists of saved "wheat" sown
by God and destined to eternal life AND unsaved "tares"
sown by Satan and (as "children of Satan") are destined
to the same fire prepared for Satan and his demons.


In your crutch of Arminian heresy you pretend the TEXT says
that anyone and everyone is a potential "wheat" and even the
"tares" can DECIDE to become "wheat".

For to hold to Unconditional Election is an attack upon God's good character revealed in the Bible. It's not morally good to hold to Unconditional Election because God is creating many for the specific purpose to be tortured alive in flames for all eternity.

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(1) First, I see you MISSED the TEXT about "wheat" sown by God
and "tares" sown by Satan.


(2) Secondly, I see you MISSED the TEXT about some men being
CREATED as either "vessels of mercy" or "vessels of wrath".


(3) Third, let's look at a little HISTORY shall we?


(a) In the FIRST world God destroyed the whole except
Noah and his family... was that a "moral" God?


(b) In the Jewish Kingdom only SOME Jews were saved, and
essentially NO GENTILES (millions of people) had no chance
of salvation... was that a "moral" God?


(c) God promised not to destroy Sodom if there were even
ten righteous... and yet the cities were destroyed along with
tens of thousands of babies... was that a "moral" God?


Bottom Line:

You have a "situational gospel" because you have no problem
with God destroying MILLIONS of men/women/children...
as long as it was BEFORE the birth of Christ.

AND

God has PROMISED judgment and punishment on all sinners
who do not have their sins covered by Jesus' Atonement....
would God be "moral" if He was LYING about that?


So you REALLY do want an immoral God...
You want an immoral God who destroyed millions in Noah's day.
You want an immoral God who destroyed millions in Sodom.
You want an immoral God who destroyed millions of Gentiles.
And you want a God that is a LIAR about the penalty of sin.


In your profound ignorance and hypocrisy you pretend that
it is only "immorality" when God destroys people in the NT era.
That is called "situational ethics" and it is not found in the Bible.


That is just hilarious...
You will decide when/where God is "moral" in not saving people.
I could not make-up such nonsense if I tried.


Jim

5thKingdom said:

First, of course you MEANT that to be offensive... why pretend
otherwise? Can you not just be honest?

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As for thinking that I meant to be offensive (i.e. intending to hurt people's feelings so as to cause only pain): This is simply not true. You are not God to truly know me, my heart, my mind, and or thoughts. I believe God commands me to hate the sin or false belief and yet not to hate the individual. So no, I did not intend for what I said to be offensive or hurtful. I am just calling it like I see it, and yet I do not intend to hurt any specific person's feelings. Yet, I say what I do in truth with God's Word and in love so as to help and lead a person to let go of bad feelings and unbiblical beliefs.

You said:

Secondly, I could say Arminianism is a crutch for those who
are not able to submit to the Biblical Gospel of Sovereign Grace,
and INSIST on a synergistic system where they can save themself.

Click to expand...

Yet, my Bible tells me to save myself.


My Bible tells me to draw near to God and He will draw near to me.
My Bible tells me to cleanse my hands, and purify my heart.

“Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.” (James 4:8).

You said:

I hate to break your bubble buddy... Those who believe
in salvation by election find it MORE than "just"...
so you are only creating a strawman.

Click to expand...

Yet, you are not explaining how Unconditional Election is just.
For the problem you should have with Calvinism is that God only saves a few (based on no conditions whatsoever) when He has the power to save them all. This would be wrong or immoral of God to do this because God desires the ultimate good for His creation.

For example: In an alternate universe (and not this universe where nothing traumatic happened to you and your family): Imagine you and your family and some other people (in this alternate universe) are thrown off the boat you were on, and you are stranded in the ocean waters. Now, imagine if a coast guard appeared who seemed like he was going to save you, your children, and five other people and yet he did not save you or your children (and yet he had the power to do so), and only saved the five other people. Would you be like, “Oh, look kids, this coast guard is surely a good man. For he reminds me a lot like God who does what he pleases in regards to saving people.” Is that what you would be saying? Most likely not. You would be throwing a fit how the coast guard chose to save the others but he did not save you, and your family (in this alternate universe). You most likely would be thinking or screaming of how it was unfair. Well, most people would be thinking this way. But you want me to accept that GOD is this way? GOD is so much better than any human. God is love (1 John 4:8).

You said:

And, the Bible is very clear:

(1) JESUS taught [John 6]... 1500 years before Calvin was born,
that NO MAN can come to Him unless the Father first "draws" them
and ALL MEN the Father draws "shall come" to Him and He will
lose NONE of them

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And the context of John 6:44 says,

“It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.” (John 6:45).

Who was Jesus speaking to? The Jews or the Gentiles?

Well, before the cross: Jesus was first sent to the lost sheep of Israel.


Before the cross: Jesus told His disciples not to go into the way of the Gentiles.


In other words, Jesus was speaking to the Jews in John 6:44-45 and not unbelieving Gentiles. So those who have learned of the Father would be faithful Jews under the Old Covenant and not just anyone today. They were not being forced against their will to learn of the Father but they already decided to follow God along time ago.

This following of God was based on their choice. How so? Just check out the following verses.


When Jesus is lifted up (i.e. His death, burial, and resurrection), that is when He (JESUS) will draw all men unto Himself.

For Jesus said,

This suggests a change in how things work. Jesus will then do the drawing. But it does not say that when Jesus draws they cannot refuse. That is something you have to insert into the text that is simply not there.

You said:

In your crutch of Arminian heresy you pretend the TEXT says
ALL MEN can come to Jesus... but SOME MEN will be lost.

Click to expand...

We are not talking about unbelievers here in John 6:44, but we are talking about Jews who have learned of the Father according to John 6:45 and in light of reading Matthew 15:24, and Matthew 10:5.

You said:

(2) Romans 3 teaches... 1500 years before Calvin was born,
that NO MAN (no, not even one) will ever "seek God" unless
they have been regenerated.
In your crutch of Arminian heresy you pretend the TEXT says
ALL MEN can "seek God"

Click to expand...

My Bible tells me to repent and be converted and not the way other way around.


Also, Romans 3:11 was said in context of Psalms 53 (a Psalm by David). The context is Gentiles at that time who denied God's existence. Yet, David was a believer, and so thus that does not mean that there was no man who did not seek after God; For surely David was a man after God's own heart.

I will respond to the rest of what you have written in my next post (Lord willing).

5thKingdom said:

Romans 9 teaches... 1500 years before Calvin was born,
that God CREATES some men to be "vessels of mercy" (saved)
and other men to be "vessels of wrath" (unsaved)


In you crutch of Arminian heresy you pretend the TEXT says
(well, you don't really HAVE a response to that TEXT)

Click to expand...

Hath not the POTTER power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? Rom. 9:21

We are often told that we are like clay in a potter’s hand, as though we have no free will of our own but turn out exactly as the potter (God) wants us to turn out. IF that idea is true, then we can only blame GOD ALONE if we turn out as murderers and thieves. We would be poor victims in the hands of the evil potter since WE didn’t ask to become murderers and thieves, and we apparently have no say in the matter if the case is that the potter alone makes the decisions and also implements them. CLEARLY this is not the picture the Bible gives us, since all of us are expected to obey God’s commandments which are NOT too grievous for us to keep, and WE are responsible for each one of our transgressions. If God is the one who decides how we will turn out, why doesn’t he make us ALL vessels unto honor? What interest would he possibly have to purposely make some of us into bad vessels? Doesn’t God want us to be obedient and godly human beings? Of course he does. The vessels of mercy are ”afore prepared”, and the vessels of wrath are ”fitted/prepared” for destruction (two different Greek words), which means that the verse doesn’t tell us that God prepared beforehand to destroy a certain amount of people – unless of course they themselves sinned and caused their own demise. People who have chosen to be wicked are those who are fitted for destruction, and hell awaits them for their unfortunate choice to be wicked.

2 Tim. 2:21 tells us that MAN is expected to PURGE HIMSELF from the vessels of dishonor, and if he does he will be a vessel unto HONOR. Man is expected to recover himself out of the snare of the devil, and he can do this through obeying the instructions we can read about below:

2 Tim 2:20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour. 21 If a man therefore PURGES HIMSELF from these, he shall be a vessel unto HONOUR, sanctified, and meet for the master’s use, and prepared unto every good work.22 Flee also youthful lusts: but follow righteousness, faith, charity, peace, with them that call on the Lord out of a pure heart. 23But foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do gender strifes. 24And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient, 25In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentanceto the acknowledging of the truth; 26And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.

So man is asked to 1) purge himself from the vessels of dishonour, 2) flee from youthful lusts, 3) follow righteousness, faith, charity, peace, etc, 4) avoid foolish and unlearned questions, 5) instruct in meekness those who oppose themselves, 6) leading to that they will recover themselves out of the snare of the devil by doing so. Lots for us to DO.

Read also below in Jeremiah 18 that the vessel that the potter made of clay was MARRED in his hands. Is it likely that a potter wants the clay he is working with to be MARRED? Clearly not. A potter hopes the clay will cooperate and turn out as planned. If the clay doesn’t cooperate and refuses to turn out as hoped, then the only rightful place for the clay is on the scrap heap. All useless clay has fitted themselves for destruction, just like a murderer’s proper place is in jail (or in the electric chair). This however doesn’t mean we want clay to be useless or people to turn out as murderers. Read also the many IF:s involved in the text. God reacts depending on OUR actions:

Jeremiah 18
1The word which came to Jeremiah from the LORD, saying, 2Arise, and go down to the potter’s house, and there I will cause thee to hear my words. 3Then I went down to the potter’s house, and, behold, he wrought a work on the wheels. 4And the vessel that he made of clay WAS MARRED in the hand of the potter: so he made it again ANOTHER VESSEL, as seemed good to the potter to make it. 5Then the word of the LORD came to me, saying, 6O house of Israel, cannot I do with you as this potter? saith the LORD. Behold, as the clay is in the potter’s hand, so are ye in mine hand, O house of Israel. 7At what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, and to pull down, and to destroy it; 8IF that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I WILL REPENT of the evil that I thought to do unto them. 9And at what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it; 10If it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I WILL REPENT of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them. 11Now therefore go to, speak to the men of Judah, and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, saying, Thus saith the LORD; Behold, I frame evil against you, and devise a device against you: return ye now every one from his evil way, and make your ways and your doings good.12And they said, There is no hope: but we will walk after our own devices, and we will every one do the imagination of his evil heart.

Below is more information about the clay and the potter, and we can read that men have ”removed” their hearts from God. Bad choice on their part. They will have to take the consequences for their actions.

Is. 29:13 Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men: 14 Therefore behold, I will proceed to do a marvelous work among this people, even a marvelous work and a wonder: for the wisdom of their wise men shall perish, and the understanding of their prudent men shall be hid. 15 Woe unto them that seek deep to hide their counsel from the Lord, and their works are in the dark, and they say, Who seeth us? and who knoweth us? 16 Surely your turning of things upside down shall be esteemed as the potter’s clay: for shall the work say of him that made it, He made me not? or shall the thing framed say of him that framed it, He had no understanding?

The rhetorical question asked of the prophet is not whether the clay can talk back to the potter, but whether it ought to talk back to him. Surely we must agree on that people HAVE spoken back to God numerous times in history? Both angels and men have even rebelled against God on several occasions, so we CAN indeed speak back against God. The point is that we shouldn’t and WE must then take the consequences for not conforming to God’s will. Romans 9 is about God’s right to bring about his plan of salvation in the way he wants, which means to open up also for gentiles to be saved, upon the condition of FAITH and not the ceremonial law. God therefore has his full right to reject those with no faith and/or bad fruit, and welcome those who have faith and show good fruit. That is his prerogative. We wouldn’t read words such as ”endured with much longsuffering” in this text unless there is synergism involved.

Romans 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? 21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? 22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: 23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, 24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles? 25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved. 26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.

It doesn’t say in Rom. 9:22 that GOD is the one who ”fitted” people for destruction. Some people are in fact heading for hell due to their destructive way of living, and they are then fitted (prepared) for destruction, and that’s their own doing. God hopes that they will repent for their sins and live, so he shows much long-suffering for such sinners, fitted for destruction, not wanting anyone to perish The verse should read: “What if God…who endured with much patience vessels of wrath which fitted themselves for destruction…

Ez. 18:31 Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

Ez.33:11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord God, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?


Article Source:
The potter and the clay – Bjorkbloggen

5thKingdom said:

In Matthew 13... 1500 years before Calvin was born,
Jesus teaches the church consists of saved "wheat" sown
by God and destined to eternal life AND unsaved "tares"
sown by Satan and (as "children of Satan") are destined
to the same fire prepared for Satan and his demons.


In your crutch of Arminian heresy you pretend the TEXT says
that anyone and everyone is a potential "wheat" and even the
"tares" can DECIDE to become "wheat".

Click to expand...

Matthew 12:33 says, “Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit.”

So Jesus is telling us we can make the tree either good or bad. So your point about the wheat and the tares is merely a false assumption upon the text so as to defend Calvinism.

You said:

(1) First, I see you MISSED the TEXT about "wheat" sown by God
and "tares" sown by Satan.

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“In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.” (2 Corinthians 4:4).

In Calvinism: A person is born blind.
But why would Satan blind those who already born blind?
It makes no sense.
Then again, Calvinism does not make any sense in light of God's Word and basic morality.

5thKingdom said:

(a) In the FIRST world God destroyed the whole except
Noah and his family... was that a "moral" God?

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“And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;” (2 Peter 2:5).

Yes, God was just and moral for destroying the whole world with a global flood because they all chose to sin and rebel against God. They did not have to perish. Noah was a preacher of righteousness. Why was Noah preaching? Because there was a chance that they could have chosen to listen to Noah's preaching and seek forgiveness with the Lord, and turn from their sins and get on the boat. But in Calvinism this would be immoral because it was God who was electing them to reprobation when He could have easily saved them by electing them to salvation but He simply chose not to do so. God just wanted them to perish for no real good reason. Hence, why it is called UNconditional Election.

For in Calvinism: Noah being a preacher of righteousness during that time would be nonsense.
Why was he preaching to all those who would be dead? It makes no sense. He would have been wasting his time if he did so (if Calvinism was true).

Also, in Genesis 6: God was grieved by man's sin.

“And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.” (Genesis 6:5-6).

Why would He be grieved over His own decision to sovereignly decree man's reprobation if He could simply change the situation by His own power to elect them to salvation?

(b) In the Jewish Kingdom only SOME Jews were saved, and
essentially NO GENTILES (millions of people) had no chance
of salvation... was that a "moral" God?

Click to expand...

Doesn't sound like that is the case when I read the Bible.

Isaiah 49:6 says, “And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth.”

“So the people of Nineveh believed God, and proclaimed a fast, and put on sackcloth, from the greatest of them even to the least of them. For word came unto the king of Nineveh, and he arose from his throne, and he laid his robe from him, and covered him with sackcloth, and sat in ashes. And he caused it to be proclaimed and published through Nineveh by the decree of the king and his nobles, saying, Let neither man nor beast, herd nor flock, taste any thing: let them not feed, nor drink water: But let man and beast be covered with sackcloth, and cry mightily unto God: yea, let them turn every one from his evil way, and from the violence that is in their hands. Who can tell if God will turn and repent, and turn away from his fierce anger, that we perish not? And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not.” (Jonah 3:5-10).

You said:

(c) God promised not to destroy Sodom if there were even
ten righteous... and yet the cities were destroyed along with
tens of thousands of babies... was that a "moral" God?

Click to expand...

Those who were adults had sinned against God of their own choice.
Any babies that die go to be directly with the Lord in His Kingdom.

You said:

You have a "situational gospel" because you have no problem
with God destroying MILLIONS of men/women/children...
as long as it was BEFORE the birth of Christ.

Click to expand...

Actually, if God forced salvation or the gospel upon people, and by default He forced others to not have salvation, then He would be immoral. If this was not the case, and man was responsible for either accepting salvation or not, then man would be responsible for his own sin and God would be moral and just. So I am not really seeing your point here.

You said:

AND

God has PROMISED judgment and punishment on all sinners
who do not have their sins covered by Jesus' Atonement....
would God be "moral" if He was LYING about that?

Click to expand...

2 Thessalonians 2:10 says,
“And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.”

Not sure you understood this verse above here. It says that those who perish are doing so because THEY received not the love of the truth that they MIGHT be saved. There is no MIGHT be saved in Calvinism. So those who are punished for their sins and do not have the blood atonement of Christ are at fault because they received not the love of the truth that they might be saved. It wasn't because God did not zap them to be saved.

Bible Highlighter said:

As for thinking that I meant to be offensive (i.e. intending to hurt people's feelings so as to cause only pain): This is simply not true. You are not God to truly know me, my heart, my mind, and or thoughts.

Click to expand...

I do not need to be God to know the intentions behind words
that people chose to use. Anybody over the age of 30... and
I am MUCH older than that, would be able to understand your
intention for using the following words - it does not matter
WHAT you say now.

Bible Highlighter said: ↑
No offense, but I believe Calvinism is a club for those who fit a certain personality type or it fits a person who has made certain cold unloving choices in life.

Click to expand...

But you need not worry because (a) I am a big boy and I can stand
to have people JUDGE me for being "cold" and "unloving" for repeating HIS WORDS and (b) Jesus TOLD US to expect
such behavior from those following "another gospel"...
in fact, it is actually a BLESSING to me.


Remember, according to JESUS, the church consists of many
unsaved "tares" sown by Satan and relatively FEW saved
"wheat" sown by God... and He PROMISED that we
could tell the difference by their "fruit", which is
not just their behavior, since non-Christians
often behave righteously, but by the
"fruit" of their doctrines.


In other words, since there are essentially TWO (2) different and
contradicting "gospels" in the church (monergism and synergism)
we can know those teaching FALSE doctrines are either (a) just
"babes in Christ" needing much correction or (b) unsaved "tares"
showing the "fruit" of NOT being saved "wheat"... there are not
other options provided in Scripture. I am not judging you since
I do not know whether you are a "babe in Christ" needing much
correction or someone showing the "fruit" of an unsaved "tare".

Yet, my Bible tells me to save myself.

Click to expand...

Does it?
Before you can even PRETEND to understand the MEANING
of any passage you must first be able to discern the CONTEXT
because (as noted earlier, the church consists of BOTH the saved
"wheat" sown by God and destined to eternal life AND the unsaved
"tares" sown by Satan and destined to eternal torment.


Now... you cited a couple of "proof texts"...
let's look at the CONTEXT of those texts to discern the CONTEXT,
are they focused on (a) the "wheat" or (b) the "tares" or (c) Both?

(1) You cited Acts 2:40 which says to "save yourselves from this
untoward generation". Now, we know the CONTEXT is not the
unsaved "tares" in the church because (a) they ARE the untoward
generation we are to save ourselves from and (b) the people who
are the FOCUS of that command to "save yourselves" are those
who are "pricked in their heart" (already being "drawn" by God)
and "For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to
all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
[v 37and 39]


So, you see, the "proof text" you cited was ONLY for those who
had been "chosen" or "elected" to be saved and who were being
"drawn" by God (the "wheat")... it was NOT (of course) for the
unsaved "tares" who were sown by Satan and are destined to the
same fire prepared for Satan and his demons [Mat 25:41]. NOW
do you SEE WHY you must discern CONTEXT of a passage before
you can even PRETEND to understand the MEANING of a verse?
The command to "save yourselves" was ONLY for those who were
"pricked in their heart"... those who "our God shall call".


I hope I helped you LEARN something in this example.

My Bible tells me to draw near to God and He will draw near to me.
My Bible tells me to cleanse my hands, and purify my heart.
“Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.” (James 4:8).

Click to expand...

First, you embarrass yourself whenever you say "my Bible tells me"
because you do NOT have a "special" Bible. But let's (again) look
at the CONTEXT of your "proof text" to see if you have any chance
of understanding the MEANING of the passage.


Contrary to the first "proof text" that you offered (above) the
passage in James is NOT directed to those who are regenerated,
and producing the "fruit" of being "children of God", but it is talking about those who are still walking in the flesh and CAPTIVE to Satan.


Jas 4:7
Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil,
and he will flee from you.


So the question I would ask you (since you APPLY this passage
to yourself)... are YOU living in the flesh and CAPTIVE to Satan?
Does this verse apply to YOU or ANY regenerated person who is
walking in the Spirit? Of course it does NOT apply to those who
are walking in the Spirit. James 4:4-10 is NOT talking to all men.


Secondly (and this is CRITICAL for you to understand if you EVER
want to understand the Gospel of the Bible)... Scripture does not ever
contain contradictions. When you read passages like James 4:4-10,
and you come up with a "theory" of what that passage means... you must then TEST your "theory" against ALL RELATED SCRIPTURE to see if there is any contradictions. Because, if there is a contradiction
with RELATED SCRIPTURE the you can know absolutely that your "theory" is incorrect.


In this case your "theory" is that ALL MEN can "draw near to God"
and "cleanse their hands and purity their hearts". That is YOUR
premise stated above.


However, there are MANY different Scriptures that contradict your
"theory" so we can know absolutely that your "theory" is not
Biblical and, therefore, incorrect (false doctrine)


(1) Mark 4:12 teaches that some men were NEVER MEANT to be
saved. They can neither "draw near to God" or "cleanse themself".
Jesus explains clearly that some men are not GIVEN the ability to
either "perceive" or "understand" the Gospel and, therefore they
can NEVER "be converted" or "have their sins forgiven".


So we see that RELATED Scripture contradicts your "theory" that
ALL MEN can "draw near to God" or "cleanse themselves", in fact,
the OPPOSITE is Biblical, some men were NEVER MEANT to be saved.


(2) Romans 9 is clear that God CREATES some men to be
"vessels of mercy" (saved) and He CREATES other men to be
"vessels of wrath" (unsaved).


Again we see that RELATED Scriptures contradict your "theory" that
ALL MEN can "draw near to God" or "cleanse themselves" since
men CREATED to be "vessels of wrath" have NO HOPE of deciding
to be "vessels of mercy". It is GOD (not man) that chooses who
HE WILLS to be saved. We see this again in the next example.


(3) In John 6 Jesus was very clear that NO MAN can ever come
to Him unless the Father first "draws them" and ALL MEN that the
Father draws "shall come" to Him... and He will lose NONE of them.
This was Jesus teaching the Biblical doctrine of "election" and, when
His disciples realized Jesus taught salvation by "election" then MANY
of them immediately abandoned Him [John 6:65-66] because they,
like most men today, do not WANT a salvation plan where God is
Sovereign and Autonomous. They WANT a salvation plan where
MEN chose to save themselves.


YOUR "theory" is the exact opposite. You pretend that ALL MEN
cam come to Jesus and SOME MEN will be lost. You cannot have
it BOTH ways... either JESUS is telling the Truth or YOU are correct
and Jesus is just a big fat LIAR. I wonder which it is?


And so, in less than 2 minutes I have provided you with BIBLICAL
proof that your "theory" (that ALL MEN can come to God and that
ALL MEN can cleanse themselves) and SOME who are "drawn" will
be LOST... is just a false doctrine of man, it is just a common heresy
taught by those who are NOT saved "wheat" or (at best) those who
are only "babes in Christ" needing much correction.

In other words, Jesus was speaking to the Jews in John 6:44-45 and not unbelieving Gentiles. So those who have learned of the Father would be faithful Jews under the Old Covenant and not just anyone today.

Click to expand...

But of course that common heresy designed to IGNORE the Truth
and is contradicted in the simple fact that Romans 6 applies to BOTH
the Jews and Gentiles... since (a) there is only ONE shepherd and
there is only ONE fold and (b) Jesus prays for THEM ALONE who
are "given to Him"... He does NOT pray for "vessels of wrath".
You must engage in mental gymnastics to DENY "election" of both
the Jew and Gentile (as one fold) under ONE shepherd.

Joh 10:16
And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: [the Gentiles] them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice;
and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.


Joh 10:26-28
But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep,
as I said unto you. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them,
and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.


Joh 10:15
As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father:
and I lay down my life for the sheep. [both Jew and Gentile]



Joh_17:9
I pray for them: [the sheep, both Jew and Gentile in one fold]
I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me;
for they are thine.

Also, Romans 3:11 was said in context of Psalms 53 (a Psalm by David). The context is Gentiles at that time who denied God's existence. Yet, David was a believer, and so thus that does not mean that there was no man who did not seek after God; For surely David was a man after God's own heart.

Click to expand...

That is hilarious.
In the OT it was true that NO MAN would ever "seek God"
except those God regenerated. So showing David is an example
is only showing a man GOD "drew" to Him... and not the norm.
Any HONEST Bible student would admit as much. For MOST Jews
were never saved.


The same applies to the NT. NO MAN will ever "seek God" except
those God Regenerated... (Remember now, this applies to the NT
and NOT the OT. As, again, most "Christians" are unsaved "tares"
NEVER MEANT to be saved, and NOT saved "wheat"... and, clearly,
no non-Christian ever "seeks God".


So PRETENDING that Romans 3:10-12 applies to the OT does not
even pass the "giggle test" and PRETENDING that it is just a LIE,
and (unregenerated) men CAN ACTUALLY "seek God" is jus clear
heresy and rejection of Scripture, which states NO, NOT EVEN ONE.


Again, those WANTING to preach heresy can DENY or IGNORE
what the Bible says... but this teaching is neither difficult or some
"mystery" for all those with "ears to hear". However, it's a mystery
(and a contradiction to their heresy) for all those men who were
NEVER MEANT to "perceive" or "understand" the harmony of
Scripture... those who were NEVER MEANT to "be converted"
or have "their sins forgiven".


Jim

Continued from Post #48

Bible Highlighter said:

We are often told that we are like clay in a potter’s hand, as though we have no free will of our own but turn out exactly as the potter (God) wants us to turn out. IF that idea is true, then we can only blame GOD ALONE if we turn out as murderers and thieves.

Click to expand...

We are NOT OFTEN told we are clay in God's hand... but we are
absolutely TOLD THAT in Romans 9:19-23. You can accept what
the BIBLE says or you can reject the WORD OF GOD. But you are
only pretending to yourself since Biblical Truth is NOT limited to
what you LIKE or ACCEPT.


When you say "if that idea is true"... what you really mean is
"if that SCRIPTURE is true", and I assure you Romans 9:19-23
is absolutely True, whether you LIKE it or ACCEPT it... it does NOT
contradict any related Scripture, thereby PROVING it is Biblical Truth.

We would be poor victims in the hands of the evil potter since WE didn’t ask to become murderers and thieves, and we apparently have no say in the matter if the case is that the potter alone makes the decisions and also implements them.

Click to expand...

What blasphemy rolls so easily out of your mouth!


The SUBJECT we are discussing is simple: Does God (as HE claims)
make some men to be "vessels of mercy" (saved) and other men
to be "vessels of wrath"... or, as Mark 4 clearly states, are some
men NEVER MEANT to "perceive" or "understand" the Gospel,
or "be converted" or "have their sins forgiven".


The CONTEXT of the Gospel is very simple (lest you forgot)
since Adam rebelled against God and chose to follow Satan,
ALL MEN are born spiritually DEAD and slaves in Satan's
"Kingdom of Babylon". They are CAPTIVE to Satan and
they do HIS WILL unless/until God regenerates them from
DEATH into LIFE and gives them an "indwelling" Spirit that
ALLOWS them (for the first time) to follow God instead of Satan.


The FACT that God only "chooses" or "elects" to save SOME MEN
from their sin nature, where they chose to sin of their own "free will"
(instead of saving ALL MEN who are destined to the same fire as
their father Satan) does NOT make God the author of sin. The fact
that I must REMIND you of this very basic and simple Gospel Truth
is a clear SHAME upon you (and you alone).

CLEARLY this is not the picture the Bible gives us, since all of us are expected to obey God’s commandments which are NOT too grievous for us to keep

Click to expand...

Again we must get back to your lesson about CONTEXT...
WHO (exactly) is "expected" to obey God's commands?
Is it (a) the saved "wheat" in the church or (b) the unsaved
"tares" in the church or (c) all the lost souls OUTSIDE of the
church, who reject Jesus and the Gospel?


Again you demonstrate WHY it is not possible to understand the
MEANING of any passage (or the Gospel in general) when you
cannot discern the clear CONTEXT of the passage. It is ONLY
the regenerated ("elect") who "are expected" to obey God's
commandments... and you again SHAME yourself by showing
(a) you either do not understand this most basic and essential
element of the Gospel -OR- (even worse) (b) you intentionally
PRETEND you do not understand this Biblical Truth in order to
protect your heretical doctrines from being destroyed.

If God is the one who decides how we will turn out, why doesn’t he make us ALL vessels unto honor?

Click to expand...

LOL

why doesn’t he make us ALL vessels unto honor?

Click to expand...

So YOU think you can make the rules instead of God?
And YOU think that, if God decides to SAVE SOME then
He must SAVE ALL.


This is just so naive it is PAINFUL to see...
and not worthy of a response.


Jim

Continued from Post #49

Bible Highlighter said:

Matthew 12:33 says, “Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit.”

Click to expand...

So Jesus is telling us we can make the tree either good or bad. So your point about the wheat and the tares is merely a false assumption upon the text so as to defend Calvinism.

Click to expand...

LOL


That is hilarious.


Read Matthew 13:24-30 and 13:36-43
JESUS CHRIST that teaches the (Christian) "Kingdom of Heaven"
consists of BOTH saved "wheat" sown by God and destined to
eternal life AND unsaved "tares" sown by Satan and destined
to the same fire prepared for Satan and the demons
[Mat 25:41]


Again... you do not have to LIKE what Jesus taught
and you do not have to ACCEPT what Jesus taught
because Biblical Truth (the Gospel) is NOT LIMITED
to what YOU LIKE or what YOU ACCEPT.


However, I must say, for anyone who PRETENDS to be a serious
"Bible student" to NOT UNDERSTAND (or reject or ignore) what
is one of the MOST basic and essential elements of the Bible is
mind boggling to me.


How in the WORLD can you ever expect (or pretend) to understand
the MEANING of any passage when you cannot discern the very
CONTEXT of that passage.... does it apply to (a) the saved "wheat"
sown by God or (b) the unsaved "tares" sown by Satan or
(c) the lost souls OUTSIDE of the church who reject Christ
and the Gospel of the Bible.


It is becoming VERY HARD for me to take you seriously when
I see this level of ignorance of BASIC and ESSENTIAL doctrine
coming from you.

In Calvinism: A person is born blind. But why would Satan blind those who already born blind? It makes no sense. Then again, Calvinism does not make any sense in light of God's Word and basic morality.

Click to expand...

First, I must tell you have amusing it is to see a "Bible student"
talk about the "basic morality" of those in Satan's Kingdom...
again, you are making it very hard for me to take you seriously.


Second, I will remind you we are NOT talking about a man born
1500 years AFTER the Apostles died. We are talking about what
the SCRIPTURE says... nothing more and nothing less.


For you to try to make the issue Calvin, is only showing you
need to construct a strawman to knock down. And knocking
down a strawman proves NOTHING except (a) the person does
not really understand the subject being discussed or (b) the person
is not honest enough to argue the subject and feels the NEED to
deflect to a different subject.


Jim

Continued from post #50

5thKingdom said: ↑
(a) In the FIRST world God destroyed the whole except
Noah and his family... was that a "moral" God?

Click to expand...

Bible Highlighter said:

Yes, God was just and moral for destroying the whole world with a global flood because they all chose to sin and rebel against God.

Click to expand...

Yes, the Gospel of the Bible CLEARLY teaches that ALL MEN
are born spiritually DEAD and slaves in Satan's Kingdom and
chose (of their own free will) to sin against God and that
NO MAN (no not even one) will ever "seek God" unless and
until God "draws" that person and regenerates that person
with the "indwelling" Holy Spirit.


This is some of the most BASIC and ESSENTIAL elements of
the Gospel of the Bible. If you do not yet understand the basics
of the Gospel then you are neither qualified or capable of trying
to "teach" anything about the Gospel... whether that be with
regard to the Pre-Flood "Kingdom of Heaven" or the Jewish
"Kingdom of Heaven" [Mat 22:2] or the Christian "Kingdom
of Heaven" [Mat 13 in 8 different verses) or the Great Tribulation
"Kingdom of Heaven" [Mat 25:1-13] or the Eternal "Kingdom
of Heaven" [Mat 8:11 and MANY other verses].

They did not have to perish. Noah was a preacher of righteousness. Why was Noah preaching? Because there was a chance that they could have chosen to listen to Noah's preaching and seek forgiveness with the Lord, and turn from their sins and get on the boat.

Click to expand...

LOL
Do you actually PRETEND that all the descendants of Adam
KNEW NOAH... or that God PROMISED Noah that He would save
his family... but there was a chance that hundreds or thousands
of random people would line-up for passage on the Ark...
(which was a picture of the Lord Jesus Christ)?

But in Calvinism...

Click to expand...

There you go again....
You are increasingly NOT WILLING to discuss what SCRIPTURE
says and trying to deflect to a man born 1500 years after
the Apostles died. Try to get serious now... you are only
embarrassing yourself and wasting my time.

Also, in Genesis 6: God was grieved by man's sin.

“And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.” (Genesis 6:5-6).

Click to expand...

Finally you have chosen to discuss Scripture... and I agree
that Scripture teaches that God took NO DELIGHT in destroying
all those who were sinners in the Pre-Flood "Kingdom", just as
God takes no delight in destroying all those Gentiles and Jews
that were not regenerated in the Jewish "Kingdom of Heaven"
and God takes no delight in destroying all the unsaved "tares"
sown by Satan in the Christian "Kingdom of Heaven" OR the
lost souls OUTSIDE of the Christian Kingdom.


But we know absolutely that (a) God is righteous and (b) He has
PROMISED to judge and penalize those who sin, unless they have
Christ as their Savior and (c) God would be a LIAR if He did not do
what He has PROMISED to do... and God is no LIAR.

Isaiah 49:6 says, “And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth.”

Click to expand...

So you are saying that God regenerates and "indwells" EVERYONE
who ever lived? Of course not... there is MORE (much more) to
this subject than the ONE VERSE you chose to quote.


First, let me remind you that NO BIBLICAL DOCTRINE can be
understood by ONE VERSE. Biblical Truth can only be found
by harmonizing ALL RELATED Scriptures. To pretend otherwise
is the "fruit" of someone who does not understand the Gospel...
maybe even someone who was NEVER MEANT to "perceive"
or "understand" the Gospel, or "be converted" from Satan's
slave or "have their sins forgiven".


Second, let me remind you that ALL HERESY (all good heresies)
can harmonize with at least one or two Scriptures because all
GOOD LIES must contain a morsel of Truth, otherwise they
would not be a good lie at all.

Any babies that die go to be directly with the Lord in His Kingdom.

Click to expand...

I understand that is your "feeling".
However, Biblical Truth is not established by your "feelings"
but by SCRIPTURE.


I am still waiting for you to provide ONE VERSE that teaches
men are born with "eternal life" (saved) and then they LOSE
that "eternal life" (contradicting the definition of "eternal")
and then SOME MEN are regenerated (born again) and
they receive "eternal life" again.


Please let me know when you have found some SCRIPTURE
to support your "feelings". Until then you have no BIBLICAL
basis for such a doctrine.

2 Thessalonians 2:10 says,
“And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.”

Click to expand...

Not sure you understood this verse above here. It says...

Click to expand...

Again you embarrass yourself and demonstrate that you really
cannot be taken seriously because you continue to pretend to
know the MEANING of passages when you do not even know
their CONTEXT.


2 Thess 2:10 (which you cited) has a SPECIFIC CONTEXT.
When you cannot discern the context you cannot understand
the meaning... and only embarrass yourself when you pretend
otherwise.


The CONTEXT of 2Thess 2 is CORRECTING the opinion of some
of the current saints that the Lord's Return is "at hand" [v1]
and to REMIND them that day will not come until there is first
a great "falling away" and the "man of sin", who is commonly
called the Antichrist is "revealed" to the Last Saints [v2-4]
after the Holy Spirit has been "taken out of the way" [v2-6]
because Satan could not be loosened from the Bottomless
Pit [Rev 9:1-2] and the Great Tribulation/Revelation Beast
could not BEGIN until the LAST SAINT had "sealed" [Rev 7:1-3]


And there is SO MUCH MORE INVOLVED in 2 Thess 2 that is
not worth teaching you... but be certain the CONTEXT relates
to the Last Saints on earth, living during the Great Tribulation
and/or Revelation Beast (not during the last 2000 years)... immediately BEFORE the Lord Returns in Glory and destroys
the Antichrist and Revelation Beast [v8-9].... so you only
showed you KNOW NOTHING about the CONTEXT or the
MEANING of 2 Thess 2.


This is a very distinct and obvious practice for you...
to try to "teach" when you do not even understand the
CONTEXT of the passage. That is a shame.


Jim

Jim:

I already refuted you with Scripture. You just want to be right no matter what. There is no sense in going back and forth with you on this. You will just see Calvinism in the Scriptures regardless of anything I say with Scripture. Good day to you in the Lord. I am moving on.

Bible Highlighter said:

Jim:
I already refuted you with Scripture. You just want to be right no matter what. There is no sense in going back and forth with you on this. You will just see Calvinism in the Scriptures regardless of anything I say with Scripture. Good day to you in the Lord. I am moving on.

Click to expand...

First, you never refuted any Scriptures - you IGNORED them.
If I am wrong simply provide the post # (as I already asked you)


Secondly, it is just hilarious for you to say I will see Calvinism
in Scriptures because (a) I already explained to you that I was
drawn and regenerated AND had understood the Gospel BEFORE
I ever heard of Calvin and (b) you will "see Arminianism" in any/all
Scriptures so your "reasoning" is obviously not only faulty, but also
clearly hypocritical and (c) it is more than clear that you simply
CANNOT respond (from the Bible) to what I have posted so you
must now run away and hide to PROTECT your "gospel" from
being destroyed by the SCRIPTURES I sent you - all of which
contradict your teachings. What else CAN you do? You cannot
defend your heresies so you MUST now run away and hide
from the Truths I presented (refuting your Arminianism)
in posts #48, 49, 50 and 51.


For you to say you have REFUTED the information in posts
#48-51 does not even pass the giggle test... even YOU do not
REALLY believe such nonsense. So run away from debate since
it is the ONLY way you can protect your "gospel"... by rejecting
and intentionally ignoring the passages I posted.


Seriously, your response to EVERYTHING posted in #48-51
is simply "I already refuted you"... that is just hilarious.


I do not mean any of this in a mean spirited manner.
I am only being HONEST and stating the OBVIOUS.
Your response to posts #48-51 is no response,
since you can provide no (Biblical) response to
the SCRIPTURES I presented.


So you sent me a TON of "doctrines" covering several posts.
I took the considerable time (and several posts) to REFUTE
everything you said with SCRIPTURE contradicting your false
doctrines and you can only run away now - to protect your
"gospel". THAT is what is happening now. Nothing more.


Jim

5thKingdom said:

First, you never refuted any Scriptures - you IGNORED them.
If I am wrong simply provide the post # (as I already asked you)


Secondly, it is just hilarious for you to say I will see Calvinism
in Scriptures because (a) I already explained to you that I was
drawn and regenerated AND had understood the Gospel BEFORE
I ever heard of Calvin and (b) you will "see Arminianism" in any/all
Scriptures so your "reasoning" is obviously not only faulty, but also
clearly hypocritical and (c) it is more than clear that you simply
CANNOT respond (from the Bible) to what I have posted so you
must now run away and hide to PROTECT your "gospel" from
being destroyed by the SCRIPTURES I sent you - all of which
contradict your teachings. What else CAN you do? You cannot
defend your heresies so you MUST now run away and hide
from the Truths I presented (refuting your Arminianism)
in posts #48, 49, 50 and 51.


For you to say you have REFUTED the information in posts
#48-51 does not even pass the giggle test... even YOU do not
REALLY believe such nonsense. So run away from debate since
it is the ONLY way you can protect your "gospel"... by rejecting
and intentionally ignoring the passages I posted.


Seriously, your response to EVERYTHING posted in #48-51
is simply "I already refuted you"... that is just hilarious.


I do not mean any of this in a mean spirited manner.
I am only being HONEST and stating the OBVIOUS.
Your response to posts #48-51 is no response,
since you can provide no (Biblical) response to
the SCRIPTURES I presented.


So you sent me a TON of "doctrines" covering several posts.
I took the considerable time (and several posts) to REFUTE
everything you said with SCRIPTURE contradicting your false
doctrines and you can only run away now - to protect your
"gospel". THAT is what is happening now. Nothing more.


Jim

Click to expand...

My initial response with Scripture refuted what you said. Your obscurification of the biblical facts presented does not change them. I am not going to play your game in endlessly fighting over the plain meaning of words that will never change your mind. Calvinism is your starting point and so you make the Bible to conform to it. So anything mentioned in Scripture that refutes Calvinism will just either go ignored or it will be read out of context to fit the Calvinist agenda. Those who have ears to hear will hear.

Bible Highlighter said:

My initial response with Scripture refuted what you said.

Click to expand...

Again,


(1) You wrote several posts proclaiming doctrines contrary to
what the Bible teaches. I responded by writing several posts that
REFUTE your doctrine. THAT is where we are right now...
like it or not.

Your obscurification of the biblical facts presented does not change them.

Click to expand...

(2) Is that what you call presenting SCRIPTURES that contradict
your "theories"? Because for almost 2000 years presenting
contradictory SCRIPTURES has been called "refuting" false
doctrines. But apparently you are "special" and you go by
different rules than 2000 years of Christian theology.

I am not going to play your game in endlessly fighting over the plain meaning of words that will never change your mind.

Click to expand...

(3) When I present SCRIPTURE contradicting your "theories"
you call that "playing games"? Again you demonstrate that
(a) you believe you are "special" and do not need to address
SCRIPTURES that contradict your "theories" and (b) you know
that you cannot refute the SCRIPTURES I provided so you decide
to run away and HIDE in order to protect your "gospel" from being
DESTROYED by the plain meaning of all the SCRIPTURES I provided.

Calvinism is your starting point and so you make the Bible to conform to it. So anything mentioned in Scripture that refutes Calvinism will just either go ignored or it will be read out of context to fit the Calvinist agenda. Those who have ears to hear will hear.

Click to expand...

(4) This is so embarrassing to you AFTER everything I mentioned
in posts #48-51 about addressing SCRIPTURES instead of trying
to construct a Calvin strawman to knock down. I NEVER defended
Calvin (I have never read any of his work) I only presented many
different SCRIPTURES that contradicted your "theories". So you
need not PRETEND otherwise... you only embarrass yourself.


(5) As I explained to you before... screaming "Calvinism" is just
a (pathetic) strawman. And I could say the exact same nonsense
to you... Here, I will simply QUOTE your words back to you:


"Arminianism is your starting point and so you make the Bible
to conform to it. So anything mentioned in Scripture that refutes
Arminianism will just either go ignored or it will be read out of context
to fit the Arminian agenda. Those who have ears will hear."


Now... did I present a valid argument against ANYTHING you said?
(no, I just copied your words building a strawman to knock down).
Did I REFUTE ANYTHING you said about your Gospel "theories"?
(again no, I just copied your words building a strawman)
Do you SEE how ridiculous an argument you make?


(6) Listen... do not worry about trying to RESPOND to all my
SCRIPTURES contradicting your "theories"... or the FACT that
I demonstrated REPEATEDLY that you do not even understand
the CONTEXT of the passages you cited, so you have no hope
of ever understanding the MEANING of those passages.


How foolish you looked when you tried to use 2 Thess 2 to
justify actions of the last 2000 years when the CONTEXT is
limited to events immediately before the Lord's Return, which
could ONLY be "seen" by the Last Saints on earth. You made
a complete fool of yourself... so you are wise to now run away.
When you don't know WHAT you are talking about, that is a very
good time to just stop talking.


Jim