Can anyone be saved through living righteously?

Saint Steven said:

Evil is learned, never innate?
What did we inherit from Adam (Eve) if not innate evil? What the bible calls the natural, or carnal (sin) nature. Are we not all condemned from birth?

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We inherited being wrong. We are condemned to death, not to the eternal fire. Christ died on the Cross, He did not go to hell. The wages of sin is death.

All sins has been dealt with, they have been nailed to the Cross and God has reconciled the world to Himself. Sin is no longer the issue, the question now is "what do you think of Jesus Christ?" (Jn.3:18)

Only God is inherently good (Lk.18:19) and He is uncreated. He cannot create something that is good innately, if He could, he would have and this whole business of evil would never have been raised. It is how God could place the tree of the knowledge of good and evil in the Garden in the first place. If Adam was innately good, (or evil or even a mixture of both) he would have already had the knowledge and the tree would have been moot.

We are born with "another law" at work in our bodies (Rom.7:23), also known as the sin nature or law of sin. It is a corruption God can have nothing to do with and hence we are born spiritually dead (no human spirit) therefore it is impossible for us to know God for the things of God are spiritually discerned. (1Cor.2:14). To the best of my knowledge, the human spirit is never said to be created (unlike the soul or body), but only ever given. It is something of God Himself and has an intimate quality in the giving. (ie. born of the Spirit Jn.3:6)

The sin nature doesn't think for itself, it simply reacts to circumstances but it's reactions effect our thinking (action of the soul) and because we are ignorant of God's truth (spiritually dead), we invariably think in terms of lies which, is evil. This inner enemy, coupled with the two external enemies (the world system and various spiritual powers) ensure we will all be culpable of evil desire and hence commit sin. But not all of us like this as Paul points out in Romans 7. Most of us desire the good but we have to learn what is good. If we were born evil, that is in our soul, there would be no hope whatsoever for it would be impossible for God to do anything about it. Evil is the rejection of reality (did God really say??) and the Lord cannot deny Himself.

Good and evil are character traits, we are not born with a character, we learn character, for good or ill. We are born with a personality in which there is no right or wrong (even the types that get up our nose ) and that will be affected by the character we learn. Character is what modifies or accentuates the best and worst of our personalities. The fruit of the Spirit are character traits, love, joy, peace etc., but there are those who prefer to learn the Devil's traits (Jn.3:19). There is no understanding of such people for those who love goodness. At best, we can recognise such people exist but we will never understand why it is so.

To the best of my understanding the people in the Matthew passage are not ones who neglected to feed, clothe etc on one or two occasions because they were in a hurry or were having a "bad hair day". These are people who continually reject doing the right thing for others and this is why they are sent to hell because they reject righteousness which means they reject God who is the only one 100% right, 100% of the time.

rturner76 said:

So it's faith that saves and not grace?

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No, it's grace through faith. The issue is you're using a "free unmerited favor" view of grace, when that's not actually what grace is. God is a judge, and judges prior to giving grace to those He deems worthy. The righteous will be saved, though who the righteous are is entirely the judgment of God.

rturner76 said:

Will people like Gandhi, Tha Dali Lama, and other people who live to serve in soup kitchens and homeless shelters dedicating their lives to peace be given eternal life?

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No.

[Matthew 7:21-23 NASB]
21 "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven [will enter.] 22 "Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?' 23 "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'

[Matthew 7:24-27 NASB]
24 "Therefore everyone who hears these words of Mine and acts on them, may be compared to a wise man who built his house on the rock. 25 "And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and [yet] it did not fall, for it had been founded on the rock. 26 "Everyone who hears these words of Mine and does not act on them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand. 27 "The rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and it fell--and great was its fall."

PS. "And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved." [Acts 4:12 NASB]

sawdust said:

To the best of my understanding the people in the Matthew passage are not ones who neglected to feed, clothe etc on one or two occasions because they were in a hurry or were having a "bad hair day".

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A bad hair day? - lol -- Seriously?

Saint Steven said:

A bad hair day? - lol -- Seriously?

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Do you not understand the expression? It's a day when nothing goes right and you're the one who needs help so helping others is not exactly on your priority list.

Of course, you might be yanking my chain and simply have nothing better to say. Honestly, I'm not even sure what the point of your discussion is?

Do you believe a person's actions are separate from who and what they are? A bad tree does not produce good fruit.

sawdust said:

Do you not understand the expression? It's a day when nothing goes right and you're the one who needs help so helping others is not exactly on your priority list.

Of course, you might be yanking my chain and simply have nothing better to say. Honestly, I'm not even sure what the point of your discussion is?

Do you believe a person's actions are separate from who and what they are? A bad tree does not produce good fruit.

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We were discussing the source of evil. (unrighteousness) You claim it is learned, I say we are born with it. (Adam's race) Sin entered the world through Adam. (Eve)

You provided a long and contradictory post with a humorous reference to a "bad hair day".

Saint Steven said: ↑
Evil is learned, never innate?
What did we inherit from Adam (Eve) if not innate evil? What the bible calls the natural, or carnal (sin) nature. Are we not all condemned from birth?

Saint Steven said:

We were discussing the source of evil. (unrighteousness) You claim it is learned, I say we are born with it. (Adam's race) Sin entered the world through Adam. (Eve)

You provided a long and contradictory post with a humorous reference to a "bad hair day".

Saint Steven said: ↑
Evil is learned, never innate?
What did we inherit from Adam (Eve) if not innate evil? What the bible calls the natural, or carnal (sin) nature. Are we not all condemned from birth?

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Paul said we were not Condemned from birth. He tells us why the penalty for rejecting God's instruction is so steep.

Rom. 7:11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.

12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.

13 Was then that which is good made death unto me?

This is your question, Yes? Did God knowingly create HIS Law to "condemn" me, a carnal creature that HE created? How does Paul answer.

God forbid. (That means NO!) But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.

God allowed us to "SIN" and become "Under the Law", dead in our trespasses, so that we might learn how "Exceedingly" Wicked, and how really, really evil it is to know what God's instructs, but then to blow it off with indifference and disrespect.

Eph. 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: (Children of SIN)

Eph. 4:22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;

23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;

24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

Can we not choose the Spiritual and "deny" our carnal self, as instructed?

Rom. 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

Didn't Paul choose the Spiritual?

Rom. 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Saint Steven said:

We were discussing the source of evil. (unrighteousness) You claim it is learned, I say we are born with it. (Adam's race) Sin entered the world through Adam. (Eve)

You provided a long and contradictory post with a humorous reference to a "bad hair day".

Saint Steven said: ↑
Evil is learned, never innate?
What did we inherit from Adam (Eve) if not innate evil? What the bible calls the natural, or carnal (sin) nature. Are we not all condemned from birth?

Click to expand...

There was nothing contradictory about my post and I went to lengths to try and explain. You most probably didn't understand because like most people you fail to recognise the difference between sin and evil hence you think being born a sinner must make us evil people. It is not so. As I said, Christ paid for our sins. What was the price? Think about it! He didn't go to hell, He died spiritually on the Cross for the "wages of sin is death".
Sin is lawlessness. Evil is rejecting the truth and replacing it with a lie. Sin is derived from evil, it is not the same thing.

James 1:14&15
14 but each person is tempted when they are dragged away by their own evil desire and enticed. 15 Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death.

If you look at Adam in the garden ... eating the fruit was the sin he committed but his evil was rejecting God's word and replacing it with the serpent's lie. We are not born filled with evil desires we learn them because we come into a world system built on lies with a genetic corruption (another law in the flesh) that prevents us being born spiritually alive and connected to God. It is inevitable we sin. It is not inevitable that we become evil but there are those who like evil, it's what they prefer. Go figure?!
The irony is that those who end up in the lake of fire are there because they want nothing to do with God whatsoever so God actually gives them exactly what they want ... an eternity without God. I love irony.

I believe the Bible clearly states, there are none righteous no not one. In a few cases God as taken faith and attributed it to that person as righteousness as is His prerogative as God. Our righteousness as a Child of God is imputed to us from Christ, not earned, not gained, not even possible to earn.

rturner76 said:

This is something I was not aware of. I always thought "Hades" was from Greek mythology where The God Hades ruled the land of the dead (or the Land of Hades) with his queen, Persephone aided by Cerberus. "Hades" must just be the Greek word for the land of the dead if the above is true. It kind of sounds like what we call Purgatory.

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There are 29 references in the NIV Bible for the phrase: "realm of the dead".

rturner76 said:

I was not aware of the difference between the realm of the dead and "hell." So is hell where souls are annihilated? Do souls suffer in lower hades? Is lower hades another word for purgatory?

A lower afterlife would fit perfectly with my view of purgatory. The question is, is the lake of fire where souls go to die or suffer eternal punishment?

Then back to the OP, will people who lived a good life (like Gandhi, Dali Lama, and those living a monastic Bhudist life etc.) be sent to lower hades or the lake of fire? Can we even know the answer?

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There are two references to the realm of the dead in the NT. Both in Acts chapter 2. They refer to Christ going there, but not being left there. And Matthew 12:40 refers to Christ being three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. Even though he was laid in an above ground tomb, not buried in the ground.

Acts 2:27
because you will not abandon me to the realm of the dead, you will not let your holy one see decay.

Acts 2:31
Seeing what was to come, he spoke of the resurrection of the Messiah, that he was not abandoned to the realm of the dead, nor did his body see decay.

rturner76 said:

So did Christ go to purgatory or hades to set souls free? Is purgatory lower hades?

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Two names for the same place. IMHO

rturner76 said:

So did Christ go to purgatory or hades to set souls free? Is purgatory lower hades?

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Purgatory is a purely Roman Catholic concept. Purgatory is believed to exist in order to purge the souls of those people who are bound for heaven of their unforgiven minor (venial) sins and the guilt of serious sins that have previously been forgiven.

This is not Paradise or the Bosom of Abraham to which Christ went after his crucifixion. That place was where the otherwise righteous people who lived before Christ's sacrifice on the cross paid the price for sin were sent. It is now said to be vacant, since the purpose has now been ended.

Albion said:

Purgatory is a purely Roman Catholic concept. Purgatory is believed to exist in order to purge the souls of those people who are bound for heaven of their unforgiven minor (venial) sins and the guilt of serious sins that have previously been forgiven.

This is not Paradise or the Bosom of Abraham to which Christ went after his crucifixion. That place was where the otherwise righteous people who lived before Christ's sacrifice on the cross paid the price for sin were sent. It is now said to be vacant, since the purpose has now been ended.

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Certainly the RCC gave it the name Purgatory. Notice the root word is purge. And they define it differently than the realm of the dead. But the principle is the same. A holding place before heaven can be entered. A place to purge in preparation.

Before Christ went to Paradise, he visited the realm of the dead where he made proclamation to "the imprisoned spirits— to those who were disobedient long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah..." - 1 Peter 3:18-20 see below.

Matthew 12:40
For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

Note: Christ was laid in an above ground tomb. Where is the heart of the earth?

1 Peter 3:18-20
For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive in the Spirit. 19 After being made alive, he went and made proclamation to the imprisoned spirits— 20 to those who were disobedient long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water,

Ephesians 4:8-10
This is why it says:
“When he ascended on high,
he took many captives
and gave gifts to his people.”
9 (What does “he ascended” mean except that he also
descended to the lower, earthly regions?
10 He who descended is the very one who ascended
higher than all the heavens,
in order to fill the whole universe.)

1 Peter 4:6
For this is the reason the gospel was preached even to those who are now dead, so that they might be judged according to human standards in regard to the body, but live according to God in regard to the spirit.

Romans 14:9
For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living.

Saint Steven said:

Certainly the RCC gave it the name Purgatory. Notice the root word is purge. And they define it differently than the realm of the dead. But the principle is the same.

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No, it isn't. There may be other concepts about an intermediate place in the afterlife, but Purgatory is a particular explanation with all sorts of specific functions and etc., and it was invented by a Roman Catholic council in the 15th century.

Before Christ went to Paradise, he visited the realm of the dead where he made proclamation to "the imprisoned spirits— to those who were disobedient long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah..."

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The belief is that this was Paradise, not Purgatory or Heaven or Hell.

rturner76 said:

I thought I posted some pretty compelling verses that did describe people at least having a chance a paradise even if they were not a specific Christian denomination. Like what you posted:
"the righteous into eternal life." In that context, the righteous seemed to be referring to those who feed the hungry, house the homeless, clothe the naked etc. In that particular context, Christ didn't seem to refer to belief making one righteous but "when you did it foe the least of these, you did it for me." This is really what I based the OP on. The universalist slant wasn't to proclaim that all souls go straight to heaven but that any soul may as God's sovereignty will determine.

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Matthew 25 doesn't imply that it is the actions that are salvific, but that is how the tares will be separated from the wheat. The goats and sheep are representative of Christ's followers, with the goats being those who claim to be followers and the sheep being the true followers. The full context of the passage makes it clear that it is addressed to his disciples who are represented by both sheep and goats, and extending that to all humanity is inappropriate.