Understanding "the beginning" and "the end"

BABerean2 said:

Rev 16:15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
Rev 16:16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.


Do you realize you are attempting to ignore or redefine the passage above in an effort to force the Book of Revelation to fit your chronology?

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Christ is only away for 42 months. You reject Christ already here, and then when He stays for 1000 years.

I never denied a coming at the battle of Armageddon. Christ is on earth and does not ever leave. Earth dissolves and a new one begins while Christ is on earth. Christ will watch the New Jerusalem come down.

I just don't label Armageddon as the Second Coming. The Second Coming happens over 4 years prior to Armageddon. You deny the full account of the Second Coming, not me. You limit it to an one hour event, that can not account for the other 6 Trumpets, much less 7 Seals and 7 Thunders. The 7th Trumpet itself covers days, not minutes.

If you deny that Satan gets 42 months, that would be nice. There would not be the 7 vials nor the battle of Armageddon. The 7th Trumpet would not have to include the 42 months. It would last 8 days, and then the millennium would start. There is a week of days that gets split. If you deny that, you deny Satan's 42 months that split that week. The 7th Trumpet is not a single blast. Revelation 10:7

7 "on the contrary, in the days of the sound from the seventh angel when he sounds his shofar, the hidden plan of God will be brought to completion, the Good News as he proclaimed it to his servants the prophets.”

Several things are set to happen, but some are not set, that may. Remember this:

But now your rage has come,
the time for the dead to be judged,
the time for rewarding your servants the prophets
and your holy people,
those who stand in awe of your name,
both small and great.
It is also the time for destroying
those who destroy the earth.”

How can this happen right away if Satan's 42 months extends the sound of the Trumpet?

7 it was allowed to make war on God’s holy people and to defeat them; and it was given authority over every tribe, people, language and nation.

This is the interruption. This is the 42 months. Christ leaves with those saints. Your verse in chapter 11, said those saints were there for the reward ceremony. Christ was to destroy those who destroy the earth, then during the 7th Trumpet, Satan was cast out and came to earth. Now the saints leave, and the FP and Satan have authority. That is John's words, not mine. That is John's chronology, not mine. God split this 7th Trumpet week in half, it was not finished. It is finished when the 2 witnesses lay dead in Jerusalem 3.5 days. The battle of Armageddon is on Sunday after the 6th and 7th vial. The 2 witnesses leave while the 10 kings are called to do battle at Armageddon. There is a reason Christ comes at Armageddon. He left in Revelation 13:7. The only holy people were the 144k. That is a considerable gathering in Jerusalem. Even Jesus spent time in Jerusalem with His disciples the week of the Cross. This is the Second Coming week of the 7th Trumpet. Jesus is with the 144k Revelation 14:1-5

Then I looked, and there was the Lamb standing on Mount Tziyon; and with him were 144,000 who had his name and his Father’s name written on their foreheads.
2 I heard a sound from heaven like the sound of rushing waters and like the sound of pealing thunder; the sound I heard was also like that of harpists playing on their harps.
3 They were singing a new song before the throne and before the four living beings and the elders, and no one could learn the song except the 144,000 who have been ransomed from the world.
4 These are the ones who have not defiled themselves with women, for they are virgins; they follow the Lamb wherever he goes; they have been ransomed from among humanity as firstfruits for God and the Lamb;
5 on their lips no lie was found — they are without defect.

We see them in 7, 9:4, and assuming 13:7. Since the Lamb is always with them and they with Him, the Second Coming was prior to the 144k being sealed. Since the Second Coming and the Lamb happened in the 6th Seal, the church already left. If you claim millions of people along with the 144k ascended to heaven 3+ days into the 7th Trumpet being sounded, that is not what Paul exactly claims. Paul does not say after the Second Coming and at the start of Satan’s rule of 42 months. Nor why would the Lamb leave with the 144k and leave the church behind?

Spiritual Jew said:

So, using your logic, I guess this means the events that occur with the sounding of the seventh trumpet, described in Revelation 11:15-18, happened before the birth and ascension of Christ which are mentioned in Revelation 12:5?

Yes, what can possibly be wrong with thinking that the seventh trumpet sounded before the birth and ascension of Christ? Because the entire book is chronological, right? It would be insane to think otherwise. Am I right or what?

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Is the birth of Christ an event of the Second Coming?

Are you saying the birth of Christ is the only chronological error in Revelation?

Why would a past event change the point I made that Revelation is chronologically correct?

Does John claim Jesus was born during the 7th Trumpet? If John does not make that claim, then nothing in Revelation is chronologically out of order. You and others force John to be "wrong" by being, what is the term, hyperliteral. John sees the event of the 7th Trumpet, but then points out in Symbolic terms a past event that ties into how Satan enters the Second Coming. One should know when John turns to strict symbols, he has left the narrative, and is giving an anecdotal picture. John describes Satan in a wide variety of unique descriptions. Do you think there is more than one Satan?

I would think not, and John also leaves the narrative and creates a "facebook" vision, that is not a separate dream, but an aside to describe a point in the actual narrative. Call them side notes or memes. The constellation of Joseph's dream in Chapter 12. The harlot in Chapters 17 and 18. These asides from the narrative hardly can be used in determining the timing of any of the narrative.

Is this really why some think Revelation is Chronologically off? Why use these asides to define the narrative. They are only character descriptions, not time stamps. Chapters 12, 17, and 18 are not part of the narrative at all. They explain the social and interactive ability of those characters in the narrative.

Timtofly said:

The Second Coming happens over 4 years prior to Armageddon.

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You often make claims like the above, with very little scripture to back it up.

I have never seen this claim from anyone else.

Are we supposed to take your word for it?


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Timtofly said:

The Second Coming happens over 4 years prior to Armageddon.

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What now? Are you saying you believe what is described in Revelation 19:11-21 happens 4 years prior to what is described in Revelation 16:12-16? How can that be?

Most would agree that those are describing the same battle and no one else besides you would try to say that Revelation 19:11-21 happens 4 years after Revelation 16:12-16.

Timtofly said:

Is the birth of Christ an event of the Second Coming?

Are you saying the birth of Christ is the only chronological error in Revelation?

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Error? Where did I say anything about an error? You are the one who accuses Paul of making mistakes in his writings and now you are saying John made an error in Revelation 12?

Why would a past event change the point I made that Revelation is chronologically correct?

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I was simply giving an example where the book is not chronological. It seems like that has upset you for some reason.

sovereigngrace said:

We have an explicit statement here that time is determined by the sun and the moon. This is what produces order and regularity. I do not believe the provisional order that governed the first 3 days negates the important and orderly role of the sun and moon in determining time.

This finishes when time shall be no more.

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We all know that time is the product of earth revolving around the sun and rotating around its own axis. But we don't know about that other provisional source of light or whether it is the same light described in Isa 60:19 and Rev 21:23.

Freedm said:

The resurrection of the dead did happen, there was a judgement at that time and the new heaven and earth have been ushered in,

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Freedm said:

Christ may have been reigning well before that, but the saints were not. The scripture is clear that those who refused the mark of the beast came to life and reigned with Christ.

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Mark of the beast, resurrection of the dead, a judgment, and new heaven and earth; would you explain how all this took place in 70 AD?

BABerean2 said:

You often make claims like the above, with very little scripture to back it up.

I have never seen this claim from anyone else.

Are we supposed to take your word for it?


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Take Revelation 6's Word for it. Stop listening to false theology that claims everything is parallel. Christ is on earth during the Trumpets. Christ is not on earth during the Seals (first 5). The 7th Seal is not the 7th Trumpet. Christ comes to earth and stays until the 7th Trumpet. Christ is here for the 7th Seal, 6 Trumpets, 7 Thunders, and then the 7th Trumpet. That is what John wrote.

Men in their theology is wrong, not John's chronology.

Spiritual Jew said:

What now? Are you saying you believe what is described in Revelation 19:11-21 happens 4 years prior to what is described in Revelation 16:12-16? How can that be?

Most would agree that those are describing the same battle and no one else besides you would try to say that Revelation 19:11-21 happens 4 years after Revelation 16:12-16.

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I am saying that Satan's 42 months interrupts the 7th Trumpet. 42 months is 3.5 years. The 5th Trumpet has a 5 month time frame. Revelation 9:10

10 They had tails like those of scorpions, with stings; and in their tails was their power to hurt people for five months.

Christ is on earth during the Trumpets. Between the 5 months and 3.5 years, it cannot be less than 3 years 11 months, thus 4 years. It is hopefully more, but may not be.

Revelation 16 and Revelation 19 is the same event, the battle of Armageddon at the end of the 42 months. The battle is for 60 minutes (Revelation 17:12 the length of the battle of Armageddon). The last 60 minutes of the sound of the 7th Trumpet (7th Trumpet cannot stop until God's plan is complete Revelation 10:7). After the 7th Trumpet stops sin will cease to exist. No more of Adam's flesh and blood can physically die, because no more of Adam's flesh and blood are alive. Christ killed every last human that moment prior to the end of the 7th Trumpet. Revelation 19:20

21 The rest were killed with the sword that goes out of the mouth of the rider on the horse, and all the birds gorged themselves on their flesh.

That is the end of Adam's punishment. The last of Adam to physically die.

The next event of humanity: Revelation 20:4

4 Then I saw thrones, and those seated on them received authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for testifying about Yeshua and proclaiming the Word of God, also those who had not worshipped the beast or its image and had not received the mark on their foreheads and on their hands. They came to life and ruled with the Messiah for a thousand years.

5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were over.)

The rest of what dead?

21 The rest were killed with the sword that goes out of the mouth of the rider on the horse, and all the birds gorged themselves on their flesh.

The rest of these dead, who had just been killed by Christ at the battle of Armageddon. Killing all of humanity is the subject at hand. The battle of Armageddon is the event. The 42 months defined the time Satan, the FP and the beast gathered all humanity together to worship Satan. Those beheaded were resurrected first. That is what John wrote between chapters 13 and 19. Some worshipped Satan, some were beheaded. Those beheaded had a resurrection. Those killed at Armageddon had to wait 1000 years.

John could not have been any more clearer than that.

Spiritual Jew said:

Error? Where did I say anything about an error? You are the one who accuses Paul of making mistakes in his writings and now you are saying John made an error in Revelation 12?

I was simply giving an example where the book is not chronological. It seems like that has upset you for some reason.

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It is your obsession with my posting style, as you misinterpret every post you keep bringing up. You think I misuse the word "mistake". I pointed out I did not originally even use the word mistake, which is now the only subject of your obsession. You introduced the word "mistake" and now pin it as a personal attack on how my posts are written.

No, Revelation 12 is not a mistake. It is not even part of the narrative, but an historical side note to introduce Satan into the narrative.

You get upset when I allegedly misinterpret amil. I have never defended that allegation to the point of obsession over your posting style.

Do you think you would get upset if I did?

sovereigngrace said:

Because you have no rebuttal to Baberean and the biblical reality of the recaps in Revelation, all you can do is throw out false charges. The 6th Seal relates to the 7th Trumpet. The 7th seal is the aftermath of the 7th trumpet.

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Agree. Premil doesn't have an answer for why there is silence in heaven after the opening of the 7th seal. Amil has an easy answer for that. It's when Jesus and His angels and the souls of the dead in Christ descend from heaven and His people are gathered to Him and He then proceeds to destroy His enemies and then resurrect and judge the dead and reward His own, just as described in Revelation 11:15-18 regarding what happens after the seventh trumpet sounds.

sovereigngrace said:

Because you have no rebuttal to Baberean and the biblical reality of the recaps in Revelation, all you can do is throw out false charges. The 6th Seal relates to the 7th Trumpet. The 7th seal is the aftermath of the 7th trumpet.

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There is the last Seal. Revelation 8:1-2 claims:

When the Lamb broke the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven for what seemed like half an hour.
2 Then I saw the seven angels who stand before God, and they were given seven shofars.

The 6th and 7th Seal have to happen before John even sees the 7 angels with the 7 Trumpets. Then the angels were given the 7 Trumpets.

Do you have a translation that says: "While all the seals are happening there are also 7 Trumpets in the background that have been sounding at the same time"?

In chapter 7, the 144k are sealed after the 6th Seal, to keep them from harm. They were not sealed before the first 6 Seals, but after.

"After this, I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding back the four winds of the earth, so that no wind would blow on the land, on the sea or on any tree.
2 I saw another angel coming up from the east with a seal from the living God, and he shouted to the four angels who had been given power to harm the land and the sea,
3 “Do not harm the land or the sea or the trees until we have sealed the servants of our God on their foreheads!”
4 I heard how many were sealed — 144,000 from every tribe of the people of Isra’el:

You all do not even mention the 7 Thunders:

Next I saw another mighty angel coming down from heaven. He was dressed in a cloud, with a rainbow over his head; his face was like the sun, his legs like columns of fire;
2 and he had a little scroll lying open in his hand. He planted his right foot on the sea and his left foot on the land,
3 and shouted in a voice as loud as the roar of a lion; and when he shouted, seven thunderclaps sounded with voices that spoke.
4 When the seven thunders spoke, I was about to write; but I heard a voice from heaven say,

“Seal up the things the seven thunders said,
do not write them down!”

Is your claim these do not happen, or we have to wait until they happen?

Would not these add an 8th recap, if recap is a thing, except it is not. John never says, "And to understand all I have written, view them as recaps and different angles of the same event." If we have to wait for 6 Trumpets, before we can even go through the 7 Thunders, how can they be a recap? Human interpretation can make for great sermons or Bible study, but changing the Word of God to "fit" one's theology does not make that theology true.

Many fail to even see, John is writing what he is seeing as he is seeing the events happen.

Spiritual Jew said:

Agree. Premil doesn't have an answer for why there is silence in heaven after the opening of the 7th seal. Amil has an easy answer for that. It's when Jesus and His angels descend from heaven and His people are gathered to Him and He then proceeds to destroy His enemies and then resurrect and judge the dead and reward His own, just as described in Revelation 11:15-18 regarding what happens after the seventh trumpet sounds.

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That is because the 6th Seal is the Second Coming, before any of the Trumpets. I have already said that in many post. Not only is the Second Coming pre-mill, it is pre-7th Seal. I have posted that a few times.

The 144k are sealed before the 7th Seal. I have posted that before. They are not the church, but sealed before the Lamb's book of life is unsealed. They are with the Lamb ON EARTH during the 7 Trumpets. Reality is not annihilated at the Second Coming. That is a false teaching not backed up in Revelation once. The Lamb and the 144k are on earth with the angels gathering the final harvest 3.5 years before the battle of Armageddon, because they are mentioned in chapter 13 as being defeated, so Satan is given authority for 3.5 years. How does this happen on earth, if amil think this is the NHNE? Is Satan given 3.5 years in the NHNE? Christ is on earth with the 144k prior to the control of Satan. They are not on earth after the battle of Armageddon, just to be removed 3.5 years earlier. You have time moving in reverse order. You have Armageddon followed by Satan's 3.5 years followed by the 144k and then they are sealed. And it happens in 60 seconds, or less.

sovereigngrace said:

Because you have no rebuttal to Baberean and the biblical reality of the recaps in Revelation, all you can do is throw out false charges. The 6th Seal relates to the 7th Trumpet. The 7th seal is the aftermath of the 7th trumpet.

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That is interesting, because your claim is heaven does not even exist for there to be a 7th Seal. How is there silence if there is nothing at all?

There is silence, because God and the Lamb are on the earth with humans still on the earth, and the Trumpets are about to sound.

sovereigngrace said:

Exactly. The glorified saints empty heaven and inhabit the new incorruptible new earth.

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This post made me realize that I forgot to mention the souls of the dead in Christ leaving heaven at that point as well. So, I edited my post to include them.