Abomination of Desolation in Luke?

Spiritual Jew said:

The book of Revelation itself identifies the holy city as the new heavenly Jerusalem in Revelation 21.

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1.) Yes, revelation 21 calls the heavenly Jerusalem 'the holy city'.

Revelation 21:2 And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband

2.) The NT also calls the earthly Jerusalem the 'holy city'.

Matthew 4:5 Then the devil took Him to the holy city and set Him on the pinnacle of the temple.

Matthew 27:53 and coming out of the tombs after his resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many

3.) So which "holy city" is being referred to in revelation 11:2b?

revelation 11:2 but do not measure the court outside the temple; leave that out, for it is given over to the gentiles, and they will trample the holy city for forty-two months.

a.) John is instructed to measure the temple of God, just as the man of bronze measure the Ezekiel temple and the angel measured the new jerusalem. Thus, IMHO, this temple of God John is measuring in revelation 11:1 is likely the Church.

Revelation 11:1 Then I was given a measuring rod like a staff, and I was told, “Rise and measure the temple of God and the altar and those who worship there,

Ezekiel 40:3 When he brought me there, behold, there was a man whose appearance was like bronze, with a linen cord and a measuring reed in his hand. And he was standing in the gateway.

Revelation 21:15 And the one who spoke with me had a measuring rod of gold to measure the city and its gates and walls.

b.) however, John is specifically instructed NOT to measure the outer court for it is given over the gentiles and they are to trample Jerusalem for 42 months. This clearly sets a distinction between the temple of God in vs 1 and the outer court and city in vs 2.

revelation 11:2 but do not measure the court outside the temple; leave that out, for it is given over to the nations, and they will trample the holy city for forty-two months

c.) Jesus clearly indicates the earthly Jerusalem was to be trampled by Gentiles, thus more favorably demonstrating that the earthly Jerusalem of the olivet discourse is in view in revelation 11:2, and not the heavenly. Therefore, I interpret revelation on the clear words of Christ:

Luke 21:24 They will fall by the edge of the sword and be led captive among all nations, and Jerusalem will be trampled by the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

revelation 11:2 but do not measure the court outside the temple; leave that out, for it is given over to the gentiles, and they will trample the holy city for forty-two months.

Spiritual Jew said:

Once Christ railed against the religious Jews and rendered their house (temple) desolate (see Matthew 23), Jerusalem was no longer the holy city.

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Matthew was written after the cross, and even calls Jerusalem the holy city following Christ's death and resurrection.

Matthew 4:5 Then the devil took Him to the holy city and set Him on the pinnacle of the temple.

Matthew 27:53 and coming out of the tombs after his resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many

Spiritual Jew said:

I don't for a second think that John would have referred to the city that Jesus had condemned an foretold its pending destruction as "the holy city" at the time he wrote the book of Revelation.

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While you could be right and also possibly wrong, this is an assumption.

Spiritual Jew said:

Yes, because I see the heavenly Jerusalem, or the church, as becoming very weak by the time Satan's little season occurs because of a significant increase in wickedness and a mass falling away from the faith that will occur (2 Thess 2:1-12), so it will have been almost completely trampled by that time. Trampled to the point where Satan will be able to do his thing unrestrained (little to no resistance from a weakened, trampled upon church) at that point for a little season. But, Jesus Himself will put a stop to it by sending fire down upon the wicked when He returns (2 Peter 3:3-13, 2 Thess 1:7-10, Rev 20:9).

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1.) This is not meant to offend, just trying to understand. I grew up in the "Christian reformed Church (crc)" which is reformed Amil theology. I've come across multiple Amils on this platform that have similar eschatology as you, which is different from the eschatology I was raised in. These Amils, with similar eschatological beliefs to you, all have one thing in common, they used to be premil. Again not trying to offend, just trying to understand, but did you use to hold to premil beliefs or have you always been Amil?

2.) Is there any scripture that specifically states the "the heavenly Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles" in order to substantiate your claim that revelation 11:2 is about the heavenly and not earthly Jerusalem?

3.) Do you believe John being instructed to measure the temple but NOT the outer court is significant or no?

claninja said:

1.) Yes, revelation 21 calls the heavenly Jerusalem 'the holy city'.

Revelation 21:2 And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband

2.) The NT also calls the earthly Jerusalem the 'holy city'.

Matthew 4:5 Then the devil took Him to the holy city and set Him on the pinnacle of the temple.

Matthew 27:53 and coming out of the tombs after his resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many

3.) So which "holy city" is being referred to in revelation 11:2b?

revelation 11:2 but do not measure the court outside the temple; leave that out, for it is given over to the gentiles, and they will trample the holy city for forty-two months.

a.) John is instructed to measure the temple of God, just as the man of bronze measure the Ezekiel temple and the angel measured the new jerusalem. Thus, IMHO, this temple of God John is measuring in revelation 11:1 is likely the Church.

Revelation 11:1 Then I was given a measuring rod like a staff, and I was told, “Rise and measure the temple of God and the altar and those who worship there,

Ezekiel 40:3 When he brought me there, behold, there was a man whose appearance was like bronze, with a linen cord and a measuring reed in his hand. And he was standing in the gateway.

Revelation 21:15 And the one who spoke with me had a measuring rod of gold to measure the city and its gates and walls.

b.) however, John is specifically instructed NOT to measure the outer court for it is given over the gentiles and they are to trample Jerusalem for 42 months. This clearly sets a distinction between the temple of God in vs 1 and the outer court and city in vs 2.

revelation 11:2 but do not measure the court outside the temple; leave that out, for it is given over to the nations, and they will trample the holy city for forty-two months

c.) Jesus clearly indicates the earthly Jerusalem was to be trampled by Gentiles, thus more favorably demonstrating that the earthly Jerusalem of the olivet discourse is in view in revelation 11:2, and not the heavenly. Therefore, I interpret revelation on the clear words of Christ:

Luke 21:24 They will fall by the edge of the sword and be led captive among all nations, and Jerusalem will be trampled by the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

revelation 11:2 but do not measure the court outside the temple; leave that out, for it is given over to the gentiles, and they will trample the holy city for forty-two months.




Matthew was written after the cross, and even calls Jerusalem the holy city following Christ's death and resurrection.

Matthew 4:5 Then the devil took Him to the holy city and set Him on the pinnacle of the temple.

Matthew 27:53 and coming out of the tombs after his resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many

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I understand where you're coming from and how you are coming to your conclusions. You are trying to interpret scripture with scripture just like I am and I commend you for that. I still believe we should go with how "the holy city" is defined within the same book that Revelation 11:2 is found. I think that's the safest bet. And, I am not sure you are correct by equating the outer court with the holy city rather than the temple of God. I'll have to take a closer look to see if that could be the case. At least we agree that the temple of God is referring to the church, so that's good.

While you could be right and also possibly wrong, this is an assumption.

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That is correct. That's why I said I don't "think" John would call earthly Jersualem "the holy city" at that point, but I did not say that he actually said that he wouldn't.

1.) This is not meant to offend, just trying to understand. I grew up in the "Christian reformed Church (crc)" which is reformed Amil theology. I've come across multiple Amils on this platform that have similar eschatology as you, which is different from the eschatology I was raised in. These Amils, with similar eschatological beliefs to you, all have one thing in common, they used to be premil. Again not trying to offend, just trying to understand, but did you use to hold to premil beliefs or have you always been Amil?

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I used to be premil but never defended that doctrine and never really could understand what Revelation 20 was about and why it would occur after the second coming. But, I left it at that and didn't think much more about it.

Up to that point I never studied Revelation 20 in depth to see how it compared to other scripture. Like many premils, I just assumed what is described in Revelation 20 followed what is described in Revelation 19 and didn't give it much thought beyond that. That was until I came to a forum about 15 years ago where people were talking about Amillennialism and it almost immediately made a lot of sense to me and I wondered why I didn't believe it sooner.

But, what does it matter how one came to believe in Amil, though? Can you explain to me why exactly you are asking me this? I believe what I do mainly from my own studies. If you think I might have some residual beliefs from having believed premil in the past, then you would be mistaken because I never strongly believed in it to begin with.

I see that it was taught in your church, but it wasn't taught in any churches I've attended. It's not really a subject that has been brought up much at all in churches that I've attended. So, I discovered it from reading some things on a forum and then doing my own studies from there.

2.) Is there any scripture that specifically states the "the heavenly Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles" in order to substantiate your claim that revelation 11:2 is about the heavenly and not earthly Jerusalem?

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The book of Revelation itself speaks of the dragon and his beast and its followers, making war with the saints (the church). I see Revelation 11:2 as speaking of the same thing as that. I see the 42 months referenced in Revelation 11:2 as being the same 42 months referenced in Revelation 13:5, so that's why I see the reference to the trampling of the holy city as being the same as the reference to the beast and its followers making war with the saints.

I don't see it as being a literal 42 months as you do, though. Do you see the 42 months of Rev 13:5 as being the same as the 42 months of Rev 11:2?

3.) Do you believe John being instructed to measure the temple but NOT the outer court is significant or no?

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Of course it is or else it wouldn't have been mentioned. Every word in God's holy word is significant. I believe it simply refers to the world outside of the church. Only the church is being measured and everyone outside the church is not measured because they are not in the church. The point is to figuratively take an account of those who are in the church by measuring the temple of God.

Spiritual Jew said:

I understand where you're coming from and how you are coming to your conclusions. You are trying to interpret scripture with scripture just like I am and I commend you for that.

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I appreciate that.

Spiritual Jew said:

I still believe we should go with how "the holy city" is defined within the same book that Revelation 11:2 is found. I think that's the safest bet.

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And I think we'll have to just disagree here, as I think the safest bet is to rely on Jesus' words in the olivet discourse in order to interpret the revelation.

Spiritual Jew said:

And, I am not sure you are correct by equating the outer court with the holy city rather than the temple of God. I'll have to take a closer look to see if that could be the case.

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I'm not equating the outer court with the holy city. The outer court is not measured, and is given over to the gentiles, AND the city is trampled by these same gentiles.

Spiritual Jew said:

At least we agree that the temple of God is referring to the church, so that's good.

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It's always nice to find common ground

Spiritual Jew said:

I used to be premil but never defended that doctrine and never really could understand what Revelation 20 was about and why it would occur after the second coming. But, I left it at that and didn't think much more about it.

Up to that point I never studied Revelation 20 in depth to see how it compared to other scripture. Like many premils, I just assumed what is described in Revelation 20 followed what is described in Revelation 19 and didn't give it much thought beyond that. That was until I came to a forum about 15 years ago where people were talking about Amillennialism and it almost immediately made a lot of sense to me and I wondered why I didn't believe it sooner.

But, what does it matter how one came to believe in Amil, though?

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No, doesn't matter how one get's to Amil, as long as it get's them off the premil train.

Spiritual Jew said:

But, what does it matter how one came to believe in Amil, though? Can you explain to me why exactly you are asking me this? I believe what I do mainly from my own studies. If you think I might have some residual beliefs from having believed premil in the past, then you would be mistaken because I never strongly believed in it to begin with.

I see that it was taught in your church, but it wasn't taught in any churches I've attended. It's not really a subject that has been brought up much at all in churches that I've attended. So, I discovered it from reading some things on a forum and then doing my own studies from there.

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Just curious. Many whom I have encountered, who have come to Amil from Premil, typically hold to the pessimistic view of Amil, that the world will get worse culminating the antichrist just prior to Christ's coming. I was taught the "optimistic" view of Amil, which is closer to postmil. the world is and always has been sinful following the fall of Adam, and The signs of the "antichrist" and "falling away" are primarily fulfilled in the 1st century, but have been occurring since the 1st century, and thus Chris could return at any moment.

from my experience, as well as discussion with others, the progression seems to go (not always) Premil to Amil and/or Amil to Preterist. Just as you were premil and began studying, which led you to Amil. I was Amil, and when I began studying, it led me to a more preterist position (not full, but definitely more of an "extreme" partial preterist.

Spiritual Jew said:

The book of Revelation itself speaks of the dragon and his beast and its followers, making war with the saints (the church). I see Revelation 11:2 as speaking of the same thing as that. I see the 42 months referenced in Revelation 11:2 as being the same 42 months referenced in Revelation 13:5, so that's why I see the reference to the trampling of the holy city as being the same as the reference to the beast and its followers making war with the saints.

I don't see it as being a literal 42 months as you do, though. Do you see the 42 months of Rev 13:5 as being the same as the 42 months of Rev 11:2?

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1.) Yes, I believe the 42 month authority of the beast to act refers to the authority to trample earthly Jerusalem for 42 months, which is, I believe associated with tribulation of Jerusalem as found in the olivet discourse


Revelation 13:5 The beast was given a mouth to speak arrogant and blasphemous words, and authority to act for 42 months.

Revelation 11:2 But exclude the courtyard outside the temple. Do not measure it, because it has been given over to the gentiles, and they will trample the holy city for 42 months

Luke 21:24 hey will fall by the edge of the sword and be led captive among all nations, and Jerusalem will be trampled underfoot by the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

2.) I believe the beast of revelation is the little horn of daniel, as both speak against God, persecute the saints, and have authority for a time, times, and half a time (42 months)

Daniel 7:25 (ylt) and words as an adversary of the Most High it doth speak, and the saints of the Most High it doth wear out, and it hopeth to change seasons and law; and they are given into its hand, till a time, and times, and a division of a time.

Revelation 13:5-8 And the beast was given a mouth uttering haughty and blasphemous words, and it was allowed to exercise authority for forty-two months. It opened its mouth to utter blasphemies against God, blaspheming his name and his dwelling,a that is, those who dwell in heaven. 7Also it was allowed to make war on the saints and to conquer them.b And authority was given it over every tribe and people and language and nation, and all who dwell on earth will worship it, everyone whose name has not been written before the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who was slain.

3.) I believe the 42 months of the beast's authority to trample the holy city is a reference to the time, times, and half a time of Daniel

Daniel 7:25 (ylt) and words as an adversary of the Most High it doth speak, and the saints of the Most High it doth wear out, and it hopeth to change seasons and law; and they are given into its hand, till a time, and times, and a division of a time.

Daniel 12:7 (ylt) And I hear the one clothed in linen, who [is] upon the waters of the flood, and he doth lift up his right hand and his left unto the heavens, and sweareth by Him who is living to the age, that, ‘After a time, times, and a half, and at the completion of the scattering of the power of the holy people, finished are all these.’

4.) However, based on the grammar in Daniel 7:25, I don't believe the time, times, and half a time refers to the persecutions of the saints. I believe the persecution of the saints refers to the time BEFORE the "time, times and half a time" or "42 months" for the following reasons:

a.) the hebrew word for "till" is ad, which means "until". Therefore, I am of the position that the persecution of the saints is "until" the time, times, and half a time.

Daniel 7:25 (ylt) and words as an adversary of the Most High it doth speak, and the saints of the Most High it doth wear out, and it hopeth to change seasons and law; and they are given into its hand, till a time, and times, and a division of a time.

b.) the greek septuagint, has the verb "shall be given" as singular, while the word for saints is plural. Therefore, I would argue the "shall be given" for a time, times, and half a time does not refer to the saints.

Daniel 7:25 (lxx) And he shall speak words against the Most High, and shall wear out the saints of the Most High, and shall think to change times and law: and shall be given into his hand for a time and times and half a time

5.) Revelation never states the beast persecutes the saints for 42 months. It only states it has authority for 42 months. In fact, revelation 7a ( it shall make war with the saints) is not found in some of the manuscripts of revelation.

Revelation 13:5-8 And the beast was given a mouth uttering haughty and blasphemous words, and it was allowed to exercise authority for forty-two months. It opened its mouth to utter blasphemies against God, blaspheming his name and his dwelling,a that is, those who dwell in heaven. Also it was allowed to make war on the saints and to conquer them.b And authority was given it over every tribe and people and language and nation, and all who dwell on earth will worship it, everyone whose name has not been written before the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who was slain.

6.) I believe "times of gentiles" refers to the 4 earthly gentile kingdoms (Babylon, Persia/media, Greece, Rome), leading up to the time the saints would inherit the kingdom.

Luke 21:24 They will fall by the edge of the sword and be led captive among all nations, and Jerusalem will be trampled underfoot by the Gentiles, until times of Gentiles are fulfilled.

Daniel 7:17-18 These four great beasts are four kings who shall arise out of the earth. But the saints of the Most High shall receive the kingdom and possess the kingdom forever, forever and ever.’

7.) it is during the 1st 10 kings of the 4th kingdom (rome) that the little horn would rise to persecute the saints. Again, I believe this to occur PRIOR to the time, times, and half a time. Such is consistent with Jesus' words that they would be persecuted PRIOR to the tribulation of Jerusalem.

Daniel 7:23-25 Thus he said: ‘As for the fourth beast, there shall be a fourth kingdom on earth,
which shall be different from all the kingdoms, and it shall devour the whole earth,
and trample it down, and break it to pieces.As for the ten horns, out of this kingdom ten kings shall arise, and another shall arise after them; he shall be different from the former ones, and shall put down three kings. He shall speak words against the Most High,and shall wear out the saints of the Most High, and shall think to change the times and the law;

Luke 21:12-19 But before all this they will lay their hands on you and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues and prisons, and you will be brought before kings and governors for my name’s sake. This will be your opportunity to bear witness. Settle it therefore in your minds not to meditate beforehand how to answer, for I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which none of your adversaries will be able to withstand or contradict. You will be delivered up even by parents and brothersc and relatives and friends, and some of you they will put to death. You will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But not a hair of your head will perish. By your endurance you will gain your lives.

To sum it up.

I believe the beast/little horn rose during the first 10 kings of 4th empire (rome) and persecuted the saints leading up to its 42 month authority to trample earthly Jerusalem in the great tribulation of 66-70ad.

Spiritual Jew said:

Of course it is or else it wouldn't have been mentioned. Every word in God's holy word is significant. I believe it simply refers to the world outside of the church. Only the church is being measured and everyone outside the church is not measured because they are not in the church. The point is to figuratively take an account of those who are in the church by measuring the temple of God.

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This final answer confuses me. Maybe you can clarify?

I thought you believed the outer court, which was NOT measured, and city being given over to the gentiles and trampled by the gentiles, refers to the church being persecuted by pagan powers. But now you say it refers to the world outside of the church?

I mean, I agree it refers to the world outside of the church, specifically, the earthly jerusalem to be trampled by the gentiles, as specifically stated by Jesus in the olivet discours.

claninja said:

Yes, I would apply Luke 21:24 to the events of Luke 21:20-23.

If you agree that revelation 11:2 is pointing to the olivet discourse, what is your position on the 42 months of Revelation 11:2? Literal or symbolic?

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Luke 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.
24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

Verse 24 says---and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

Revelation 11:2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

If a literal temple is meant here, and assuming this involved what happened in 70 AD, one is to then believe that the Gentiles stayed completely away from the inner temple area and only tread under foot the court which is without the temple? How is that the entire temple got destroyed if they are only treading under foot the outer court? This leads to a nonsensical conclusion if we take verse 2 in the literal sense, and then apply that to the events involving 70 AD.

In 70 AD there was a temple involved, yet you have verse 1 not even meaning the temple in in the first century, but have that likely meaning the church, that according to another post you submitted, post #281. In verse 2 how can the temple mentioned not be meaning the same temple mentioned in verse 1? How could it be a different temple altogether? Does not verse 2 begin with a 'But'? Shouldn't that mean it is connected with verse 1? How can that verse begin with 'But, and that the court that is without is not meaning the court without the temple in verse 1, but is meaning another temple instead? You are not being consistent here if you are applying the temple meant in verse 1 in one manner, then the temple mentioned in verse 2 in another manner, when they are obviously referring to the very same temple in both verses.

And if we go back to verse 24 in Luke 21, to then apply this how you are applying it , one then has to conclude the times of the Gentiles are already fulfilled, that none of the times of the Gentiles involve anything post 70 AD.

To answer what you asked me, first of all I agree with you in post #281 where you indicated verse 1 is likely meaning the church, therefore that's how verse 2 should be understood as well, that it involves the church and not a temple and outer court in the first century. In Luke 21 verse 20 is undoubtedly meaning what happened in 70 AD. In verse 24 that is meaning the result of verse 20, where many were killed, others went into captivity, and that until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled, Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles until that time.

DavidPT said:

If a literal temple is meant here, and assuming this involved what happened in 70 AD, one is to then believe that the Gentiles stayed completely away from the inner temple area and only tread under foot the court which is without the temple? How is that the entire temple got destroyed if they are only treading under foot the outer court? This leads to a nonsensical conclusion if we take verse 2 in the literal sense, and then apply that to the events involving 70 AD.

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Just a thought (I'm still processing this):

Revelation is mostly symbolic poetry.
This passage seems to be about a distinction being made within the Israelites. ISTM that the distinction is between the faithful ancient Israelites - the remnant (those who worship in the Temple of God....not meaning the physical Temple...but those Israelites who were Jesus followers - the True Church/Body of Christ) and the zealots that served a false god of nationalism. It makes sense to me that - just as they (apostate Israelites) desired to separate the Gentiles from their worship of God with the literal wall of separation in the physical Temple in Jerusalem as they clung to their identity with the Israelites as their salvation and protection - this measuring seems to draw new lines of distinction.

IOW....those apostate Israelites that believed their identity of belonging to the group of circumcision (the Mosaic Covenant) was no longer their protection. Unless they worship in the True Temple, not made of human hands, they will be on the outside and void of God's protection. I believe this is a bit of allegory mixed with literal fulfillment.

**That's probably not clear at all....sorry. I don't know if this helps....but this is what I'm reading that brought me to this (partial) conclusion:

The Gentiles Trampled Jerusalem for 42 Months (Revelation 11:1-2)

DavidPT said:

If a literal temple is meant here, and assuming this involved what happened in 70 AD, one is to then believe that the Gentiles stayed completely away from the inner temple area and only tread under foot the court which is without the temple? How is that the entire temple got destroyed if they are only treading under foot the outer court? This leads to a nonsensical conclusion if we take verse 2 in the literal sense, and then apply that to the events involving 70 AD.

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Revelation makes a distinction between the "temple of God" in vs 1 and the outer court and city which is given over to the gentiles in vs 2. John is instructed to measure the temple of God but NOT instructed to measure the outer court for it is given to the gentiles and they will trample Jerusalem.

Revelation 11:1-2 Then I was given a measuring rod like a staff, and I was told, “Rise and measure the temple of God and the altar and those who worship there, BUT DO NOT MEASURE the court outside the temple; leave that out, for it is given over to the nations, and they will trample the holy city for forty-two months.

Therefore, I make a distinction between the temple of God in vs 1 and the outer court and city in vs 2.


1.) the temple of God is "measured" in verse 1. Therefore I believe it refers the body of Christ, which is the temple of God.

Ezekiel 40:3 When he brought me there, behold, there was a man whose appearance was like bronze, with a linen cord and a measuring reed in his hand. And he was standing in the gateway.

revelation 21:15 And the one who spoke with me had a measuring rod of gold to measure the city and its gates and walls.

2 corinthians 6:16 What agreement has the temple of God with idols? For we are the temple of the living God; as God said, “I will make my dwelling among them and walk among them,
and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

2.) the outer court, WHICH IS NOT MEASURED AND THEFORE DISTINCT FROM THE MEASURED TEMPLE OF GOD IN VS 1, is given over to the gentiles and they trample the holy city for 42 months. I believe this is a reference to the olivet discourse and destruction of Jerusalem.

Luke 21:24 They will fall by the edge of the sword and be led captive among all nations, and Jerusalem will be trampled underfoot by the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

DavidPT said:

In 70 AD there was a temple involved, yet you have verse 1 not even meaning the temple in in the first century, but have that likely meaning the church, that according to another post you submitted, post #281

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Correct, I'm inclined to believe the temple of God in vs one is the body of Christ.

DavidPT said:

In verse 2 how can the temple mentioned not be meaning the same temple mentioned in verse 1? How could it be a different temple altogether? Does not verse 2 begin with a 'But'? Shouldn't that mean it is connected with verse 1? How can that verse begin with 'But, and that the court that is without is not meaning the court without the temple in verse 1, but is meaning another temple instead? You are not being consistent here if you are applying the temple meant in verse 1 in one manner, then the temple mentioned in verse 2 in another manner, when they are obviously referring to the very same temple in both verses.

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A distinction is made between the temple of God and the court that is without, because John is instructed to measure the temple BUT NOT to measure the outside court. The Bible itself makes a distinction between the two by the "measuring" of one and NOT the other. Therefore, it is not inconsistent to differentiate between the 2 if revelation 11:1-2 does.

DavidPT said:

And if we go back to verse 24 in Luke 21, to then apply this how you are applying it , one then has to conclude the times of the Gentiles are already fulfilled, that none of the times of the Gentiles involve anything post 70 AD.

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Correct, I believe the "times of gentiles" fulfilled

I believe the "times of gentiles" refers to the 4 gentiles (babylon, persia, greece, rome) kingdoms leading up to the saints possessing the kingdom.

Daniel 7:17-18 ‘These four great beasts are four kings who shall arise out of the earth. But the saints of the Most High shall receive the kingdom and possess the kingdom forever, forever and ever.’

I believe the "times of gentiles" culminated in the trampling of Jerusalem for 42 months in 66-70ad.

Luke 21:24 They will fall by the edge of the sword and be led captive among all nations, and Jerusalem will be trampled underfoot by the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

Revelation 11:2 but do not measure the court outside the temple; leave that out, for it is given over to the gentiles, and they will trample the holy city for forty-two months.

Additionally, The parallel accounts of the olivet discourse have the "signs in the sky" and the coming of the son of man as occurring "immediately" and in the "days after" the tribulation. Therefore, I believe it consistent that the "times of gentiles" be fulfilled around the days of the tribulation of Jerusalem, and not a long period (2,000 plus years) following the destruction of Jerusalem.


Matthew 24:29-30 Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Mark 13:24-26 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, 25and the stars will be falling from heaven, and the powers in the heavens will be shaken. 26And then they will see the Son of Man coming in clouds with great power and glory

Luke 21:24-28 They will fall by the edge of the sword and be led captive among all nations, and Jerusalem will be trampled underfoot by the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled. “And there will be signs in sun and moon and stars, and on the earth distress of nations in perplexity because of the roaring of the sea and the waves, people fainting with fear and with foreboding of what is coming on the world. For the powers of the heavens will be shaken. And then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. Now when these things begin to take place, straighten up and raise your heads, because your redemption is drawing near.”

DavidPT said:

To answer what you asked me, first of all I agree with you in post #281 where you indicated verse 1 is likely meaning the church, therefore that's how verse 2 should be understood as well, that it involves the church and not a temple and outer court in the first century. In Luke 21 verse 20 is undoubtedly meaning what happened in 70 AD.

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I would disagree the outer court and city of revelation 11:2 are a part of the church because 1.) John is specifically instructed NOT to measure it and 2.) it's clearly a reference to Luke 21:24, which is about the physical earthly city.

DavidPT said:

In verse 24 that is meaning the result of verse 20, where many were killed, others went into captivity, and that until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled, Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles until that time.

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So then you believe the 42 months gentiles trampling jerusalem in revelation 11:2 is a different event than the gentiles trampling jerusalem in luke 21:24, then correct?

Davy said:

The only comparison I see about a temple to Christ is about His claim to resurrect after three days. The Hebrews 8 comparison is actually about the whole system of the old covenant which required a tabernacle or temple. Yet the fact that the Church does not require that old covenant temple today does not omit what God declared through Ezekiel that is for the future after Jesus returns...

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And I would disagree the Ezekiel temple points to another future physical temple building because:

1.) God specifically stated He would speak to the prophets of Israel in parables, dreams, and visions, UNLIKE how he spoke to Moses. Therefore, I would interpret Ezekiel as a parable pointing to Christ and His body.

Numbers 12:6-8 And he said, “Hear my words: If there is a prophet among you, I the LORD make myself known to him in a vision; I speak with him in a dream. Not so with my servant Moses. He is faithful in all my house. With him I speak mouth to mouth, clearly, and not in riddles, and he beholds the form of the LORD. Why then were you not afraid to speak against my servant Moses?

Hosea 12:10 I spoke to the prophets it was I who multiplied visions, and through the prophets gave parables.

2.) Paul quotes from Ezkekiel 37 as being fulfilled in the body of Christ, for we are temple.

2 corinthians 6:16 For we are the temple of the living God; as God said, “I will make my dwelling among them and walk among them, and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Ezekiel 37:26-28 I will make a covenant of peace with them. It shall be an everlasting covenant with them. And I will set them in their landg and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in their midst forevermore. My dwelling place shall be with them, and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

3.) The ezekiel temple = the new jerusalem

a.) Both have water flowing from them

Ezekiel 47:1 Then he brought me back to the door of the temple, and behold, water was issuing from below the threshold of the temple toward the east (for the temple faced east). The water was flowing down from below the south end of the threshold of the temple, south of the altar

Revelation 22:1 Then the angela showed me the river of the water of life, bright as crystal, flowing from the throne of God and of the Lamb

b.) both have fruit produced each month and leaves for healing

Ezekiel 47:12 And on the banks, on both sides of the river, there will grow all kinds of trees for food. Their leaves will not wither, nor their fruit fail, but they will bear fresh fruit every month, because the water for them flows from the sanctuary. Their fruit will be for food, and their leaves for healing.”

Revelation 22:2 through the middle of the street of the city; also, on either side of the river, the tree of lifeb with its twelve kinds of fruit, yielding its fruit each month. The leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

c.) The gates have the names of the 12 tribes of Israel on them

Ezekiel 48:30-35 These shall be the exits of the city: On the north side, which is to be 4,500 cubits by measure, 31three gates, the gate of Reuben, the gate of Judah, and the gate of Levi, the gates of the city being named after the tribes of Israel. 32On the east side, which is to be 4,500 cubits, three gates, the gate of Joseph, the gate of Benjamin, and the gate of Dan. 33On the south side, which is to be 4,500 cubits by measure, three gates, the gate of Simeon, the gate of Issachar, and the gate of Zebulun. 34On the west side, which is to be 4,500 cubits, three gates,h the gate of Gad, the gate of Asher, and the gate of Naphtali. 35The circumference of the city shall be 18,000 cubits. And the name of the city from that time on shall be, The LORD Is There.

Revelation 21:12 It had a great, high wall, with twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and on the gates the names of the twelve tribes of the sons of Israel were inscribed—

c.) it is where God dwells with His people forever.

Ezekiel 43:6-7 While the man was standing beside me, I heard one speaking to me out of the temple, 7and he said to me, “Son of man, this is the place of my throne and the place of the soles of my feet, where I will dwell in the midst of the people of Israel forever.

Revelation 21:3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Behold, the dwelling placea of God is with man. He will dwell with them, and they will be his people,b and God himself will be with them as their God.

claninja said:

I'm not equating the outer court with the holy city. The outer court is not measured, and is given over to the gentiles, AND the city is trampled by these same gentiles.

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Okay, I agree with that. I just disagree with you on the identity of the holy city.

Just curious. Many whom I have encountered, who have come to Amil from Premil, typically hold to the pessimistic view of Amil, that the world will get worse culminating the antichrist just prior to Christ's coming. I was taught the "optimistic" view of Amil, which is closer to postmil. the world is and always has been sinful following the fall of Adam, and The signs of the "antichrist" and "falling away" are primarily fulfilled in the 1st century, but have been occurring since the 1st century, and thus Chris could return at any moment.

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As an Amil, you believe that Satan's little season precedes the second coming of Christ, don't you (Rev 20:7-9)? Is a description of a number of people "as the sand on the seashore" opposing "the camp of the saints" (the church) something to be optimistic about? I'm optimistic about Christ's return itself, but not about the world getting better. Do you think the world is getting better? I think it clearly is not. I equate the time of the falling away from the faith that Paul talked about with Satan's little season, so it's clear to me that the world gets worse before Christ returns. Christ Himself compared how things would be in the days before His return to the days of Noah.

from my experience, as well as discussion with others, the progression seems to go (not always) Premil to Amil and/or Amil to Preterist. Just as you were premil and began studying, which led you to Amil. I was Amil, and when I began studying, it led me to a more preterist position (not full, but definitely more of an "extreme" partial preterist.

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That is not going to be my experience, my friend. I see a lot of flaws in preterism. I have studied these things for a long time now and I am solidly in the Idealist Amil camp.

I have to go and don't have time to go over the rest of your post now, but I appreciate you taking the time to explain your beliefs.

Spiritual Jew said:

Okay, I agree with that. I just disagree with you on the identity of the holy city.

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No problem, we will just have to disagree. At least we agree on the important fundamentals of Christ's 1st advent.

Spiritual Jew said:

As an Amil, you believe that Satan's little season precedes the second coming of Christ, don't you (Rev 20:7-9)?

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I'm Amil only in the sense of the literal definition of Amil. I am not Amil in the traditional sense that it refers to the time period of the church age between the 1st and 2nd advents.

But yes, I believe satan's little season occurs prior to the parousia. In fact, I believe it began when Christ ascended to heaven and cast satan out.

Spiritual Jew said:

Is a description of a number of people "as the sand on the seashore" opposing "the camp of the saints" (the church) something to be optimistic about?

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Yes, there is reason to be "optimistic". We are God's, and there is nothing to fear. We need not be like the other 10 spies.

Numbers 14:24 But my servant Caleb, because he has a different spirit and has followed me fully, I will bring into the land into which he went, and his descendants shall possess it.

Spiritual Jew said:

I'm optimistic about Christ's return itself, but not about the world getting better. Do you think the world is getting better? I think it clearly is not.

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Yes, I believe the kingdom of God is growing and conquering to this day.

Spiritual Jew said:

I equate the time of the falling away from the faith that Paul talked about with Satan's little season, so it's clear to me that the world gets worse before Christ returns. Christ Himself compared how things would be in the days before His return to the days of Noah.

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The falling away is something in regards to the 1st century prior to the destruction of the temple and was already occurring in the 1st century, that is how they knew it was the last hour.

Matthew 24:10 And then many will fall away and betray one another and hate one another

1 john 2:18-19 children, it is the last hour, and as you have heard that antichrist is coming, so now many antichrists have come. Therefore we know that it is the last hour. They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us.

Spiritual Jew said:

That is not going to be my experience, my friend. I see a lot of flaws in preterism. I have studied these things for a long time now and I am solidly in the Idealist Amil camp.

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No worries. All eschatological beliefs have flaws. For me it was the flaws in premil and traditional amil that led to preterism.

Spiritual Jew said:

but I appreciate you taking the time to explain your beliefs.

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right back at you

Spiritual Jew said:

As an Amil, you believe that Satan's little season precedes the second coming of Christ, don't you (Rev 20:7-9)? Is a description of a number of people "as the sand on the seashore" opposing "the camp of the saints" (the church) something to be optimistic about?

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I think this is what's optimistic about that (this quote from Andy Stanley):

mkgal1 said:

I think this is what's optimistic about that (this quote from Andy Stanley):

View attachment 291167

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What does that mean? How does it relate to Revelation 20:7-9?

claninja said:

So then you believe the 42 months gentiles trampling jerusalem in revelation 11:2 is a different event than the gentiles trampling jerusalem in luke 21:24, then correct?

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I tend to think they are referring to the same events, except I don't take either to be meaning Luke 21:20. That would already be in the past when the 42 months recorded in Revelation 11:2 is being fulfilled, where I take that to be meaning Revelation 13:5. Nothing in Revelation 13 even remotely gives me the impression that events concerning the first century are in view, such as what happened in 70 AD. If that is true, who or what explains the false prophet in Revelation 13? According to that chapter, one can't have a first beast without there also being a 2nd beast involved. The 2nd beast is involved with performing false miracles. What does any of that have to do with what happened in 70 AD? Any miracles happening in the first century were of God, not of satan.

2 Thessalonians 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders---this is referring to all of the following and is something that is fulfilled during the 42 months recorded in Revelation 11:2 and Revelation 13:5, IMO.


Matthew 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

Revelation 13:11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.
12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.
13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.

Some wrongly place the time of Matthew 24:24 during the first century, ignoring the fact that is meaning the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, which is something that happens in the end of this age, and not something that happened in the first century instead. Any miracles taking place in the first century were of God, not of satan. But I already said that.

DavidPT said:

I tend to think they are referring to the same events,

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Agreed.

DavidPT said:

except I don't take either to be meaning Luke 21:20.

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Disagreed.

The conjunction kai (and) is present between vs 23 and 24. It does not say "then" they will fall by the edge of the sword.....but instead, says "and" they will fall by the edge of the sword.

Therefore, I would argue there is more evidence that Luke 21:24 is in regards to luke 21:20-23.

Luke 21:20-24 “But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation has come near. Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, and let those who are inside the city depart, and let not those who are out in the country enter it, for these are days of vengeance, to fulfill all that is written. Alas for women who are pregnant and for those who are nursing infants in those days! For there will be great distress upon the earth and wrath against this people And they will fall by the edge of the sword and be led captive among all nations, and Jerusalem will be trampled underfoot by the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

When do you believe Luke 21:24 takes place if not in association with the events of 66-70ad?

DavidPT said:

That would already be in the past when the 42 months recorded in Revelation 11:2 is being fulfilled, where I take that to be meaning Revelation 13:5.

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I agree that the 42 months of trampling Jerusalem by gentiles = 42 month authority of the beast

revelation 11:2 do not measure the court outside the temple; leave that out, for it is given over to the gentiles, and they will trample the holy city for forty-two months

Revelation 13:5 And the beast was given a mouth uttering haughty and blasphemous words, and it was allowed to exercise authority for forty-two months.

Do you believe the 42 month time period is literal or symbolic?

DavidPT said:

Nothing in Revelation 13 even remotely gives me the impression that events concerning the first century are in view, such as what happened in 70 AD.

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I would agree that revelation 13 does not give an impression of 66-70ad. However, revelation 11 and 17 do.

DavidPT said:

Some wrongly place the time of Matthew 24:24 during the first century, ignoring the fact that is meaning the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, which is something that happens in the end of this age, and not something that happened in the first century instead. Any miracles taking place in the first century were of God, not of satan. But I already said that.

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No where in the scriptures does it ever say that the false prophets/christs perform miracles.

IMHO, the "signs" and "wonders" done by false prophets are similar to that of Simon, for people believed the magic performed by Simon was of "the power of God".

Acts 8:9-11 But there was a man named Simon, who had previously practiced magic in the city and amazed the people of Samaria, saying that he himself was somebody great. They all paid attention to him, from the least to the greatest, saying, “This man is the power of God that is called Great.” And they paid attention to him because for a long time he had amazed them with his magic.

grafted branch said:

Matthew 24 and Mark 13 both use the term abomination of desolation; however that specific term isn’t used in Luke 21. Trying to harmonize these chapters by equating Jerusalem surrounded by armies with the abomination of desolation presents some issues.

Points that support AOD and JSA (Jerusalem surrounded by armies) being the same event are

1. Matthew and Mark were written for a Jewish audience while Luke was written mainly to Gentiles.
   
   
2. The description and instructions on fleeing is nearly identical for both AOD and JSA.
   
   
3. There can be little doubt that the questions asked and the answer given by Jesus in the 3 gospels prior to the phrases AOD and JSA are to be viewed as the same question/answer session.

Points that don’t support AOD and JSA being the same event are

1. The Jews would have certainly been aware of Antiochus Epiphanies sacrifice and wouldn’t necessarily associate armies surrounding Jerusalem as the abomination spoken of in Daniel.
   
   
2. If the Jews would have waited until the armies were standing in the holy place (Jerusalem) it surely would’ve been too late to escape. If the holy place is outside of Jerusalem then it doesn’t seem likely that the Jews would’ve understood the warning written for them.
   
   
3. Matthew and Mark both have the phrase AOD and the days being shortened, Luke has neither phrase.
   
   
4. It wouldn’t seem to matter whether the days of vengeance were shortened or not after the believing Jews fled, their flesh would still be saved.

These are just some points that I can think of, I would like to hear from others if they have additional points to make on either side.

I made this chart to show my current view of how I deal with some of the issues.


View attachment 289557


This chart might be difficult to read and I couldn’t fit all my thoughst on it; so I have each time period listed below (I’m not very good at making charts, this is my first attempt at it).

1. Daily sacrifice is taken away. In Daniel 12:11 the daily sacrifice shall be taken away and Hebrews 7:27 shows that the high priests offered up daily sacrifice, first for their own sins, and then for the peoples. The necessity to provide the daily sacrifices was taken away because God will provide the sacrifice. The point at which this occurs is in John 1:29 where Jesus is declared to be the Lamb of God that takes away the sins of the world. Hebrews 10:9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second. Jesus has power to forgive sins prior to the cross (Matthew 9:2-6) proving that the high priests sacrifices were no longer necessary. The sacrifices were allowed to continue in the temple even though the shadow they were portraying was presently with them because the second (in Hebrews 10:9) was not yet established. Hebrew 9:17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.
   
   
2. Jesus’s ministry starts. In Matthew 4:12-17, after He heard that John the Baptist was cast into prison … from that time Jesus began to preach, and say, repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.
   
   
3. The cross (30 A.D.)

1. Abomination of Desolation. The first sacrifice made after the veil was torn is an abomination that makes those who perform it desolate. It’s an abomination because it denies that Jesus was the Lamb and the sacrifices they are making can’t forgive sins so they are now desolate. Fleeing didn’t happen here because the days of vengeance were shortened. The first part of “the days of vengeance” was truncated, so the sign to flee is now Jerusalem surrounded by armies.
   
   
2. Pentecost. This event would be in doubt if the days of vengeance weren’t shortened.
   
   
3. Jerusalem surrounded by armies. Daniel 9:27 and that determined shall be poured out upon the desolate. The fleeing happens here because these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
   
   
4. 70 A.D.

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It's the Dome of the Rock, this I know.

grafted branch said:

Matthew 24 and Mark 13 both use the term abomination of desolation; however that specific term isn’t used in Luke 21. Trying to harmonize these chapters by equating Jerusalem surrounded by armies with the abomination of desolation presents some issues.

Points that support AOD and JSA (Jerusalem surrounded by armies) being the same event are

1. Matthew and Mark were written for a Jewish audience while Luke was written mainly to Gentiles.
   
   
2. The description and instructions on fleeing is nearly identical for both AOD and JSA.
   
   
3. There can be little doubt that the questions asked and the answer given by Jesus in the 3 gospels prior to the phrases AOD and JSA are to be viewed as the same question/answer session.

Points that don’t support AOD and JSA being the same event are

1. The Jews would have certainly been aware of Antiochus Epiphanies sacrifice and wouldn’t necessarily associate armies surrounding Jerusalem as the abomination spoken of in Daniel.
   
   
2. If the Jews would have waited until the armies were standing in the holy place (Jerusalem) it surely would’ve been too late to escape. If the holy place is outside of Jerusalem then it doesn’t seem likely that the Jews would’ve understood the warning written for them.
   
   
3. Matthew and Mark both have the phrase AOD and the days being shortened, Luke has neither phrase.
   
   
4. It wouldn’t seem to matter whether the days of vengeance were shortened or not after the believing Jews fled, their flesh would still be saved.

These are just some points that I can think of, I would like to hear from others if they have additional points to make on either side.

I made this chart to show my current view of how I deal with some of the issues.


View attachment 289557


This chart might be difficult to read and I couldn’t fit all my thoughst on it; so I have each time period listed below (I’m not very good at making charts, this is my first attempt at it).

1. Daily sacrifice is taken away. In Daniel 12:11 the daily sacrifice shall be taken away and Hebrews 7:27 shows that the high priests offered up daily sacrifice, first for their own sins, and then for the peoples. The necessity to provide the daily sacrifices was taken away because God will provide the sacrifice. The point at which this occurs is in John 1:29 where Jesus is declared to be the Lamb of God that takes away the sins of the world. Hebrews 10:9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second. Jesus has power to forgive sins prior to the cross (Matthew 9:2-6) proving that the high priests sacrifices were no longer necessary. The sacrifices were allowed to continue in the temple even though the shadow they were portraying was presently with them because the second (in Hebrews 10:9) was not yet established. Hebrew 9:17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.
   
   
2. Jesus’s ministry starts. In Matthew 4:12-17, after He heard that John the Baptist was cast into prison … from that time Jesus began to preach, and say, repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.
   
   
3. The cross (30 A.D.)

1. Abomination of Desolation. The first sacrifice made after the veil was torn is an abomination that makes those who perform it desolate. It’s an abomination because it denies that Jesus was the Lamb and the sacrifices they are making can’t forgive sins so they are now desolate. Fleeing didn’t happen here because the days of vengeance were shortened. The first part of “the days of vengeance” was truncated, so the sign to flee is now Jerusalem surrounded by armies.
   
   
2. Pentecost. This event would be in doubt if the days of vengeance weren’t shortened.
   
   
3. Jerusalem surrounded by armies. Daniel 9:27 and that determined shall be poured out upon the desolate. The fleeing happens here because these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
   
   
4. 70 A.D.

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I view Daniel 9:26-27 as "Hebrew Parallelism". In other words, verse 27 is just another way of saying verse 26.

Therefore, IMHO:

And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off = And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease

and

and he shall destroy the city and the sanctuary with the prince that is coming = and on the temple [shall be] the abomination of desolations;

Daniel 9:26-27(kjv)And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Daniel 9:26-27 (greek septuagint) And after the sixty-two weeks, the anointed one shall be destroyed, and there is no judgment in him: and he shall destroy the city and the sanctuary with the prince that is coming: they shall be cut off with a flood, and to the end of the war which is rapidly completed he shall appoint [the city] to desolations. And one week shall establish the covenant with many: and in the midst of the week my sacrifice and drink-offering shall be taken away: and on the temple [shall be] the abomination of desolations; and at the end of time an end shall be put to the desolation.

So If:

and he shall destroy the city and the sanctuary with the prince that is coming = and on the temple [shall be] the abomination of desolations;

Then it is not unreasonable for:

Luke 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh = Matthew 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand).

ISTM, that Luke 21:20 is pulling from Daniel 9:26b, While Matthew 24:15 is pulling from Daniel 9:27b, but both are about the same thing, if one agrees that Daniel 9:26-27 is hebrew parallelism.

grafted branch said:

Thanks for that explanation; I hadn’t considered the “Hebrew Parallelism” before, and it does make sense.

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No problem

grafted branch said:

One of the main reasons I separated the abomination of desolation and Jerusalem surrounded by armies is found in Daniel 12:11-12. The 1290 and 1335 days doesn’t seem to fit with what Antiochus did, and I also couldn’t see how it would fit with the 66-70 A.D. period. What is your view on the 1290 and 1335 days?

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The difficulty with Daniel 12:11-12 is fourfold:

1.) While we know the starting point (removing of sacrifice and setting up of AOD), The verses don't tell us a specific historical event that is to occur after the 1290/1335 days, other than "being blessed".
2.) These verses are not expounded upon in the new testament, as a result, any positive claim as to what the 1290/1335 days mean is pure speculation.
3.) Daniel 10-12 is one long vision, so are the 1290/1335 days pointing to the great tribulation in chapter 12 or are they a call back to the work of Antiochus in chapter 11?
4.) are the 1290/1335 days literal or symbolic?

IMHO there are 2 removal of sacrifice events and 2 AOD events mentioned in Daniel:
1.) Antiochus Epiphanes (daniel 11:31, Daniel 8:11-14) = type/shadow
2.) Christ's death in ~30-33ad, and destruction of Jerusalem in 66-70ad (daniel 9:26-27) = antitype/reality

IMHO, in Matthew 24:15, in regards to the AOD, Jesus is pointing to the antitype/reality (daniel 9:26-27) and not the type/shadow in daniel 11:31.

With that being said, I tend to lean toward the 1290/1335 days as being in regards Daniel 11:31, the type/shadow, but also symbolically pointing to Christ's 1st advent (ministry, death, resurrection, ascension, and sending of spirit), the anitype/reality.

grafted branch said:

Also can I get your thoughts on Revelation 20:9? I’m studying this as possibly referring to the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D., with the rest of the dead (Revelation 20:5) not living again till the 1,000 years are over = Israel being blind in part till the fullness of the Gentiles comes in. So do you see Revelation 20:9 having a connection with Jerusalem being destroyed in 70 A.D.?

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I view satan's release from the pit, for a little while, in revelation 20:7-9, as a reference to Satan's casting out of heaven at Christ's ascension to deceive and persecute.

revelation 20:3,7-9 and threw him into the pit, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he might not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were ended. After that he must be released for a little while. And when the thousand years are ended, Satan will be released from his prison and will come out to deceive the nations that are at the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them for battle; their number is like the sand of the sea. And they marched up over the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, but fire came down from heavenb and consumed them

revelation 12:12 Therefore, rejoice, O heavens and you who dwell in them! But woe to you, O earth and sea, for the devil has come down to you in great wrath, because he knows that his time is short!”

John 12:31 Now is the judgment of this world; now will the ruler of this world be cast out.

John 14:30 I will no longer talk much with you, for the ruler of this world is coming. He has no claim on me,

Satan was deceiving and persecuting, in the 1st century, after his casting out of heaven.

ephesians 2:1-2 And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience—

2 corinthians 11:13-15 For such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ. And no wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. So it is no surprise if his servants, also, disguise themselves as servants of righteousness. Their end will correspond to their deeds.

1 thessalonians 2:14-18 For you suffered the same things from your own countrymen as they did from the Jews, who killed both the Lord Jesus and the prophets, and drove us out, and displease God and oppose all mankind by hindering us from speaking to the Gentiles that they might be saved—so as always to fill up the measure of their sins. But wrath has come upon them at last!g But since we were torn away from you, brothers, for a short time, in person not in heart, we endeavored the more eagerly and with great desire to see you face to face, because we wanted to come to you—I, Paul, again and again—but Satan hindered us.

revelation 2:13 “‘I know where you dwell, where Satan’s throne is. Yet you hold fast my name, and you did not deny my faithb even in the days of Antipas my faithful witness, who was killed among you, where Satan dwells.

1 peter 5:8 Be sober-minded; be watchful. Your adversary the devil prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour.

1 timothy 5:15 For some have already strayed after Satan.

Galatians 4:29 But just as at that time he who was born according to the flesh persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, so also it is now.

But Paul said that satan was soon to be crushed under the feet of the saints

Romans 16:20 The God of peace will soon crush Satan under your feet. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you.

Revelation 20:10 nd the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Therefore, I view the little horn's persecution of the saints and attempts to change the time and law, during the 10 kings of the 4th empire (rome), as at least in part related to satan's casting out of heaven to persecute the saints through apostate Israel, judiazers, and gentiles, leading up to the 42 months/time, times, half a time (66-70ad) destruction of apostate Israel, after which the saints would inherit the kingdom.

Daniel 7:26-27 But the court shall sit in judgment, and his dominion shall be taken away,
to be consumed and destroyed to the end. And the kingdom and the dominion
and the greatness of the kingdoms under the whole heaven shall be given to the people of the saints of the Most High; his kingdom shall be an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him

Matthew 21:43 Therefore I tell you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people producing its fruits.

claninja said:

Therefore, I view the little horn's persecution of the saints and attempts to change the time and law, during the 10 kings of the 4th empire (rome), as at least in part related to satan's casting out of heaven to persecute the saints through apostate Israel, judiazers, and gentiles, leading up to the 42 months/time, times, half a time (66-70ad) destruction of apostate Israel, after which the saints would inherit the kingdom.

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If Satan and the wicked angels who followed Him were still in heaven during Christ's earthly ministry, how do you explain the "devils" which Christ cast out of people?


Mat_9:32 As they went out, behold, they brought to him a dumb man possessed with a devil.
Mat_9:33 And when the devil was cast out, the dumb spake: and the multitudes marvelled, saying, It was never so seen in Israel.


Mar 5:1 And they came over unto the other side of the sea, into the country of the Gadarenes.
Mar 5:2 And when he was come out of the ship, immediately there met him out of the tombs a man with an unclean spirit,
Mar 5:3 Who had his dwelling among the tombs; and no man could bind him, no, not with chains:
Mar 5:4 Because that he had been often bound with fetters and chains, and the chains had been plucked asunder by him, and the fetters broken in pieces: neither could any man tame him.
Mar 5:5 And always, night and day, he was in the mountains, and in the tombs, crying, and cutting himself with stones.
Mar 5:6 But when he saw Jesus afar off, he ran and worshipped him,
Mar 5:7 And cried with a loud voice, and said, What have I to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of the most high God? I adjure thee by God, that thou torment me not.
Mar 5:8 For he said unto him, Come out of the man, thou unclean spirit.
Mar 5:9 And he asked him, What is thy name? And he answered, saying, My name is Legion: for we are many.
Mar 5:10 And he besought him much that he would not send them away out of the country.
Mar 5:11 Now there was there nigh unto the mountains a great herd of swine feeding.
Mar 5:12 And all the devils besought him, saying, Send us into the swine, that we may enter into them.
Mar 5:13 And forthwith Jesus gave them leave. And the unclean spirits went out, and entered into the swine: and the herd ran violently down a steep place into the sea, (they were about two thousand and were choked in the sea.
Mar 5:14 And they that fed the swine fled, and told it in the city, and in the country. And they went out to see what it was that was done.
Mar 5:15 And they come to Jesus, and see him that was possessed with the devil, and had the legion, sitting, and clothed, and in his right mind: and they were afraid.
Mar 5:16 And they that saw it told them how it befell to him that was possessed with the devil, and also concerning the swine.
Mar 5:17 And they began to pray him to depart out of their coasts.
Mar 5:18 And when he was come into the ship, he that had been possessed with the devil prayed him that he might be with him.
Mar 5:19 Howbeit Jesus suffered him not, but saith unto him, Go home to thy friends, and tell them how great things the Lord hath done for thee, and hath had compassion on thee.
Mar 5:20 And he departed, and began to publish in Decapolis how great things Jesus had done for him: and all men did marvel.

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Devil is the goat, adversarial position of Satan. Demons and devils are spiritually dead human spirits, from those considered goats by God. Humans that God claims, "Depart from Me, I never knew you." Definitely those who will be removed from the Lamb's book of life at the GWT. Totally reprobate, fully rejecting the Atonement. Their spirit knows God, but God literally forgets them at some point. Those with the mark 666 will definitely be demonic and considered devils. It will be a conscious choice to become that way. It is not forced on them.

BABerean2 said:

If Satan and the wicked angels who followed Him were still in heaven during Christ's earthly ministry, how do you explain the "devils" which Christ cast out of people?

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I'm working under the assumption that satan, as a spiritual entity, had access to both heaven and earth. This spiritual entity's "roaming the earth" and being able to "present himself before the Lord", allowed him to deceive and accuse those who broke God's commands.

Job 1:6-7 One day the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satana also came with them. “Where have you come from?” said the LORD to Satan. “From roaming through the earth,” he replied, “and walking back and forth in it.”

Zechariah 3:1 Then the angel showed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angela of the LORD, with Satan standing at his right hand to accuse him.

But when Christ ascended to the Father, I believe satan was cast out, no longer having authority or a "standing in heaven" to accuse the elect because of the cross.

Revelation 12:9-10 and the great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him. And I heard a loud voice in heaven saying: “Now have come the salvation and the power
and the kingdom of our God, and the authority of His Christ. For the accuser of our brothers has been thrown down—he who accuses them day and night before our God.

John 12:31-33 Now judgment is upon this world; now the prince of this world will be cast out. And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw everyone to Myself.” He said this to indicate the kind of death He was going to die.

Romans 8:33-34 Who will bring any charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies. Who is there to condemn us? For Christ Jesus, who died, and more than that was raised to life, is at the right hand of God—and He is interceding for us.