Lets talk about the New Testament commandments (No Sabbath Talk Please)...

Bible Highlighter · Dec 25, 2020

fhansen said:
My concern though is that virtually all of Jesus’ commands could still be attempted to be fulfilled legalistically, by the letter, trying to earn salvation.

You mean we should not legalistically obey God's laws like this one (as a part of salvation)?

“And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.” (1 John 3:23).

You said:
So in my understanding regardless of the source of the law (Paul affirms in Rom 7 that the old law was still holy, right, good, and spiritual), there’s a new way to fulfill any valid commands now, and that is by love. And this is how it’s possible to fulfill the moral law, at least, without even hearing it (Rom 2:13).

In Romans 7:12 (in regards to the commandment being holy, just, and good): Well, in this verse, Paul was referring to the Moral aspect of the Old Law (i.e. the righteousness of the Law), and not the whole of the 613 Laws of Moses (Note: Moral laws are any laws that you know to do good without a specific command telling you to do them; For it is a logical conclusion that the Moral Law is the Law that the Gentiles kept without having the Law - See: Romans 2:14; These would be things like: Do not murder, do not steal, do not covet, etc.; And the Moral Law would not be ceremonial laws like the Saturday Sabbath, dietary laws, circumcision, and animal sacrifices, etc.).

So how can Paul be referring to the Moral Law in Romans 7:12?

Paul says,

“That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.” (Romans 8:4).

For if we love our neighbor, we will automatically fulfill the requirements of the Old Law.

“Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law” (Romans 13:8).

Therefore...

“For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.” (Romans 13:9-10).

This is the righteous aspect or part of the Old Law. Loving our neighbor.

For even if you were to take a legalistic approach to God's laws, you will discover that we are commanded to love. For are you not aware that the two greatest commandments is focused on love?

You said:
I really think Paul was condemning fulfilling any law merely by the letter while using the ceremonial law of circumcision to highlight that a mere outward sign of holiness is not necessarily any real holiness at all. Circumcision could be fulfilled by the spirit, within the heart, as could the moral laws when fulfilled by love. There’s still a division in Paul’s mind, though. Ceremonial laws need no longer be actually accomplished while the moral laws as defined in the Ten Commandments must still be actually, physically fulfilled, but motivated by love now as one is under grace, and not under the law.

I believe Jesus is our Sabbath rest now, and it is no longer a literal day of rest that we have to keep.

You said:
And that same love also accomplishes other acts or works, such as those mentioned in Eph 2:10 or those things done “for the least of these” which Jesus uses as a criteria for separating the sheep from the goats in Matt 25.

Yes, we have to love our neighbor (Which is helping the poor and or helping the poor beat up guy laying on the side of the road).

klutedavid · Dec 25, 2020

Bible Highlighter said:
First, the Trinity (or Godhead) at first glance appears to be a paradox because 1 John 5:7 teaches that God is three and yet one, but if one fully understands the Trinity, it is not a paradox. The same is true in regards to understanding the different processes of salvation (i.e. Justification vs. Sanctification). Even the word “all” does not always mean “all” in the Bible. John 8:2 says, “And early in the morning he came again into the temple, and ALL the people came unto him; and he sat down, and taught them.” Did all the people in existence at that time came to Jesus in that moment? No. But if one wanted to create a contradiction or paradox, I suppose they could do that with this verse.

Second, in order for your version on the gospel to be true, then certain verses in the Bible would not exist. For if your version of the gospel was true, there should be no teachings on holy living as a part of eternal life after we are saved by God's grace. For the Bible makes it clear that...

After we are saved by God's grace,
God’s works (done through us) are also required as a part of the Salvation Process:

(Here are a List of Verses):

#1. “Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only." (James 2:24).

#2. "Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.” (James 2:17-18).

#3. "They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate." (Titus 1:16).

#4. "If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; He is proud, knowing nothing," (1 Timothy 6:3-4).

Supplemental verse:

"...God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble." (James 4:6).

#5. "And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him." (Hebrews 5:9).

#6. "Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord" (Hebrews 12:14).

#7. “...God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth” (2 Thessalonians 2:13).

Supplemental verses:

(a) “That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.” (2 Thessalonians 2:12).

(b) “...and hath given us everlasting consolation and good hope through grace, Comfort your hearts, and establish you in every good word and work.” (2 Thessalonians 2:16-17).

#8. “There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.” (Romans 8:1).

Supplemental verse:

“For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.” (Romans 8:13).

#9. "If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be Anathema [accursed] Maranatha."(1 Corinthians 16:22).

Supplemental verses:

(a) "If ye love me, keep my commandments." (John 14:15).

(b) “If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.” (John 15:10).

#10. ”And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou? And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself. And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.” (Luke 10:25-28).

#11. “...if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.” (Matthew 19:17-19).

#12. "And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me." (Matthew 10:38). ”If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it. For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? (Matthew 16:24-26).

#13. "...No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God." (Luke 9:62) (cf. Luke 8:11-15, 1 Corinthians 4:15).

#14. "But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: For there is no respect of persons with God." (Romans 2:8-11).

Supplemental verses:

(a) "Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls." (James 1:21).

(b) “Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.” (James 1:12).

(c) "For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved." (John 3:20).

#15. “And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.” (John 5:29).

#16. ”And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.” (Revelation 22:12-15).

#17. “For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.” (Romans 11:21-22).

#18. “Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.” (Philippians 2:12-13).

#19. ”Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.” (Matthew 25:34-40).
“Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.” (Matthew 25:41-46).

#20. ”His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.” (Matthew 25:21).
”And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” (Matthew 25:30).

#21. “In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.” (1 John 3:10).

#22. “He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God” (John 8:47).

#23. “But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.” (1 John 1:7) (cf. 1 John 2:9-11).

#24. “For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.” (Matthew 5:20).

#25. “Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock. And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.” (Matthew 7:24-27).

#26. “Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.” (Matthew 7:21).

Supplementary verse:

“For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication” (1 Thessalonians 4:3).

#27. “And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet [Jesus], shall be destroyed from among the people.” (Acts of the Apostles 3:23).

#28. “I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.’ (John 15:5-6).

Supplementary verses:

(a) “Bring forth therefore fruits befitting for repentance” (Matthew 3:8).

(b) “And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.” (Matthew 3:10).

#29. “And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear? Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator.” (1 Peter 4:18-19).

#30. “For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting. And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.” (Galatians 6:8-9).

Hello BH.

Now that is one hefty post to read and far too large to attempt any reply. As the reply would be two or three times larger still. Perhaps HB, you can shorten your replies somewhat.

Do you believe that you are saved by grace or not?

Either HB, you are saved by grace or you are not saved by grace. Keep the reply simple and brief.

If say, your works somehow justify you before Almighty God, please tell me which one of these works. Is the work that actually grants that justification. Remember, keep it simple (kiss principle).

I will not reply to the additional giant posts that you added.

Bible Highlighter · Dec 25, 2020

klutedavid said:
Hello BH.

Now that is one hefty post to read and far too large to attempt any reply. As the reply would be two or three times larger still. Perhaps HB, you can shorten your replies somewhat.

Do you believe that you are saved by grace or not?

Either HB, you are saved by grace or you are not saved by grace. Keep the reply simple and brief.

If say, your works somehow justify you before Almighty God, please tell me which one of these works. Is the work that actually grants that justification. Remember, keep it simple (kiss principle).

I will not reply to the additional giant posts that you added.

Here is an attempt to shorten one of my major posts so as to help you understand where I am coming from.

Is God three or is He one? So which is it?
It is both. Sounds like a contradiction but it isn’t. Salvation can also be viewed as a contradiction at first glance, as well. But we know God’s Word does not contradict itself.

So what’s the solution?

Grace:

1. We are saved by God’s grace initially and foundationally.
2. Being saved by God’s grace is the 1st aspect in God’s plan of salvation.
3. We are not saved by Man Directed Works.
4. We are not saved by “Works ALONE Salvationism.”

Sanctification:

1. After we are saved by God’s grace, we then continue in the Sanctification Process.
2. Being saved in the Sanctification Process is the 2nd aspect in God’s plan of salvation.
3. We are saved by God Directed Works done through us believers under our free will cooperation with God.
4. Being saved by “God’s grace + Sanctification” does not = “Works ALONE Salvationism.”

In other words, Paul was arguing against “Works ALONE Salvationism” without God’s grace via by man’s rules and efforts. Paul was not arguing against the Sanctification Process that involves God doing the good work through you to live a holy life. God’s will is for us to be holy (Sanctification) (1 Thessalonians 4:3).

Side Note:

Most in your camp believe that Paul was referring to any kind of works, but this is not the case. For if such were the case, you would have to take a black magic marker and start to blot out tons of verses that teach Sanctification as a part of God’s plan of salvation (after we are saved by God’s grace).

For starters try reading and believing plainly Matthew 25:21, and Matthew 25:30.

klutedavid · Dec 25, 2020

Bible Highlighter said:
Here is an attempt to shorten one of my major posts so as to help you understand where I am coming from.

I appreciate that.

Is God three or is He one? So which is it?
It is both. Sounds like a contradiction but it isn’t. Salvation can also be viewed as a contradiction at first glance, as well. But we know God’s Word does not contradict itself.

The trinity is far beyond the understanding of mortal man. Hence, the trinity could very well be a paradox.

Grace:
1. We are saved by God’s grace initially and foundationally.
2. Being saved by God’s grace is the 1st aspect in God’s plan of salvation.
3. We are not saved by Man Directed Works.
4. We are not saved by “Works ALONE Salvationism.”

I disagree most strongly.

The gospel of Jesus Christ is the gospel of grace. Salvation, justification, sanctification, righteousness, are all free gifts. Given to those who believe in Jesus Christ.

Acts 2:21
And it shall be that everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.

So you obviously don't believe that anyone who calls on the name of the Lord, will be saved.

Sanctification:

1. After we are saved by God’s grace, we then continue in the Sanctification Process.
2. Being saved in the Sanctification Process is the 2nd aspect in God’s plan of salvation.
3. We are saved by God Directed Works done through us believers under our free will cooperation with God.
4. Being saved by “God’s grace + Sanctification” does not = “Works ALONE Salvationism.”

In other words, Paul was arguing against “Works ALONE Salvationism” without God’s grace via by man’s rules and efforts. Paul was not arguing against the Sanctification Process that involves God doing the good work through you to live a holy life. God’s will is for us to be holy (Sanctification) (1 Thessalonians 4:3).

Side Note:

Most in your camp believe that Paul was referring to any kind of works, but this is not the case. For if such were the case, you would have to take a black magic marker and start to blot out tons of verses that teach Sanctification as a part of God’s plan of salvation (after we are saved by God’s grace).

For starters try reading and believing plainly Matthew 25:21, and Matthew 25:30.

Without the belief in the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ, there can be no salvation. One must establish the first cause, the primary doctrine, Jesus Christ. Then after an eternal pause, we can stoop to discuss your works. Whatever works they might be.

You honestly think that your sanctification is a product of your own endeavor?

You scare me.

fhansen · Dec 25, 2020

Bible Highlighter said:
You mean we should not legalistically obey God's laws like this one (as a part of salvation)?

“And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.” (1 John 3:23).

Yes, I’m saying that they cannot be legalistically fulfilled, because faith and love are both gifts of grace, indicators of changed hearts. I cannot decide to believe or to love; I can only receive them, or seek them, or more of them, from God. Legalism implies a merely external show of obedience.

Bible Highlighter said:
Yes, we have to love our neighbor (Which is helping the poor and or helping the poor beat up guy laying on the side of the road).

Yes, in fact all of man’s obligation to be righteous is fulfilled by love, by the greatest commandments IOW.

Bible Highlighter · Dec 25, 2020

klutedavid said:
I appreciate that.The trinity is far beyond the understanding of mortal man. Hence, the trinity could very well be a paradox.

While we look through a glass darkly, the concept of the Trinity is reallly not that hard to figure out.

The Godhead (i.e. Trinity) is stating that God is one and yet He is also three distinct persons, too. Ever see those paper chain cutouts of people before in your school? Imagine three persons in that chain. They are connected as one God and yet they are also three. While God is not exactly like Siamese twins, Siamese twins gives us an idea that two or more distinct people can exist in the form of one, as well. Granted, these are crude examples, but they should help give you the basic idea of the Godhead (i.e. Trinity).

You said:
I disagree most strongly.

You are not disagreeing with me, but you are disagreeing with Scripture.

You said:
The gospel of Jesus Christ is the gospel of grace.

Right, and that's why I quoted you the verse on that fact. Did you ignore the verse reference?

You said:
Salvation, justification, sanctification, righteousness, are all free gifts. Given to those who believe in Jesus Christ.

Then why are we told to work out our salvation with fear and trembling? (See: Philippians 2:12).

In 2 Corinthians 7:1, Paul says, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

We are told:

“...We are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end.” (Hebrews 3:13-14).

"Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life." (Jude 1:21).

"...be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life." (Revelation 2:10).

We are told to:

Continue in the grace of God (Acts of the Apostles 13:43).
Continue in the faith (Acts of the Apostles 14:22) (Colossians 1:23).
Continue in his goodness, otherwise we can be cut off (just like the Jews were cut off) (Romans 11:21-22).

So yeah, things are not exactly as you say. Yes, God's grace is a free gift, but we also have to work out our salvation with fear and trembling, too.

You said:
Acts 2:21
And it shall be that everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.

When you read Acts of the Apostles 2:21, you also have to read Acts of the Apostles 3:23 which says that every soul who will not hear (obeys) that prophet (i.e. JESUS) shall be destroyed from among the people. Matthew 7:26-27 says a similiar thing. It basically says that everyone who does not do what Jesus says is like a fool who built his house upon the sand, and when a storm came, great was the fall of that house. So you cannot just read verses in a vacuum and isolate them from the rest of Scripture.
For if all you read in a story was about how Rick entered the house, and you ignored the rest of the story about how he left the house, you could erroneously think that Rick never left his house.

So you obviously don't believe that anyone who calls on the name of the Lord, will be saved.

I do. But that is one moment in time.
I mean, do you actually believe Matthew 24:13 when it says the following?
“But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.”

You said:
In other words, we have to look at the whole counsel of God's Word.

Without the belief in the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ, there can be no salvation. One must establish the first cause, the primary doctrine, Jesus Christ. Then after an eternal pause, we can stoop to discuss your works. Whatever works they might be.

Are you really that unaware of what God's Word says?
The only works are the works of God as written in God's Holy Word.
Have you not read about the two greatest commandments?
Have you not read about the command to preach the gospel?
Have you not read about helping the poor?
Have you not read about loving the brethren in the way that Jesus loved them?

You said:
You honestly think that your sanctification is a product of your own endeavor?

You scare me.

You are not reading what I had written too well. I said very clearly that Sanctification involves God directed works done through the believer under our free will cooperation (See point #3 in my Sanctification section in my previous post to you). God does not force us to live a holy life. Granted, you don't believe it is possible to live a holy life because you think mind sins makes it impossible for anyone to obey God. But Jesus did not make this conclusion as you have done. Jesus said to, “sin no more.” (John 5:14) (John 8:11).

Side Note:

Please keep in mind that I am referring to overcoming mortal sin for the sake of this section of the forums.

Bible Highlighter · Dec 25, 2020

fhansen said:
Yes, I’m saying that they cannot be legalistically fulfilled, because faith and love are both gifts of grace, indicators of changed hearts. I cannot decide to believe or to love; I can only receive them, or seek them, or more of them, from God. Legalism implies a merely external show of obedience.

I totally believe in having a changed heart, but did you know that to be born again is a command in John 3? God commands us to be born again. God commands us to believe in Jesus. God commands us to repent. So if a man obeys God's commands legalistically in repenting, to be born again, and to believe in Jesus, you are saying that nothing will happen for that person? Jesus says if you love me, keep my commandments (John 14:15). Is Jesus being legalistic by saying this?

You said:
Yes, in fact all of man’s obligation to be righteous is fulfilled by love, by the greatest commandments IOW.

Your not getting it. Love involves a form of legalism because it is embodied as being the two greatest commandments. Commandments are laws. We are commanded to love. If you were to follow legally the two greatest commandments, you would do well in loving correctly. Legalism merely gets a bad name because of men. But there is nothing wrong with strictly following God's laws. This will lead to having love and a right relationship with God. Try reading John 14 through John 15 again. Try reading again Luke 10:25-28, and Matthew 19:17.

Why do you think we are in the mess that we are in (i.e. the Fall of mankind)?
It's because Adam had disobeyed God's law.

Bible Highlighter · Dec 25, 2020

klutedavid said:
You scare me.

Right, I do not hold to Easy Believism that can easily lead people to treat God's grace as a license for immorality (Jude 1:4). George Sodini killed a bunch of people and then he took his own life. He professed in his own suicide letter that all his future sins were paid for by Jesus christ. Meaning, he set out to do evil and he thought he was saved by Jesus Christ. John MacArthur's church teaches that suicide does not lead to spiritual death and Kenneth Nally committed suicide as a part of this teaching. You cannot repent or confess to the Lord of self murder.

I mean, why do you think there are so many commands in the New Tesament that are unique and detailed if we cannot obey them? It makes no sense to have that many instructions if the point of them was to not keep them.

Bible Highlighter · Dec 25, 2020

@klutedavid

You also did not address Matthew 25:21, and Matthew 25:30, either.

Bible Highlighter · Dec 26, 2020

Jesus commands us in Matthew to:

“Enter in at the narrow gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and many there be who go in there: Because narrow is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leads unto life, and few there be that find it (Matthew 7:13-14)

Yet in Luke 13:24, Jesus commands us to,

“strive to enter in at the strait gate.”

Bible Highlighter · Dec 26, 2020

Are you striving to enter the strait gate?
We all should be doing so.

GDL · Dec 26, 2020

Bible Highlighter said:
What do I mean by non-explicit commands?

I am saying that the language is speaking more from a third person perspective. Matthew 4:4 falls into this category. It says, “Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.” (Matthew 4:4). The language here is not directly telling me the reader to do something, but it is speaking more in a non-direct way by mentioning the word “man” instead of “you” or “us” or, “we.”

The bold highlighting in your quote is mine, so I can be reminded of what you mean by "non-explicit"

Bible Highlighter said:
Matthew 19 non-explicit commands:

What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder (Matthew 19:6) (Translation: Let us not put asunder (separate) what God has joined together).

Whoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, commits adultery: (Matthew 19:9) (Translation: You shall not put away your wife, except it be for fornication, and neither shall you put away your wife to marry another).

Whoever marries her who is put away does commit adultery (Matthew 19:9) (Translation: Do not marry her who is put away (divorced)).

He that is able to receive it, let him receive it (Matthew 19:12) (Translation: You who are capable to receive it [i.e. the law or laws on marriage], allow yourself to receive it (or them) - See Matthew 19:10-11).

#1 seems to fit your explanation of non-explicit - Matt19:6 has an actual imperative command. #4 is similar as it also has an imperative.

#2 & #3 have no commands language. What you're calling "translation" might be better labeled "interpretation" in order to consider them as commands.

Your "translation" of #2 seems redundant & not correctly interpreting the instruction. Also, there is no command to divorce, just a possibility of divorce.

Are you sure about #4? If you want to call them laws on marriage, is Jesus still allowing what Moses allowed? Or is Jesus addressing the disciples' statement about it being better not to marry?

GDL · Dec 26, 2020

Bible Highlighter said:
Jesus commands us in Matthew to:

“Enter in at the narrow gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and many there be who go in there: Because narrow is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leads unto life, and few there be that find it (Matthew 7:13-14)

Yet in Luke 13:24, Jesus commands us to,

“strive to enter in at the strait gate.”

Bible Highlighter said:
Are you striving to enter the strait gate?
We all should be doing so.

What exactly is the entrance Jesus is commanding here? At what point of salvation does this apply?

Bible Highlighter said:
Finis Jennings Dake leaves out certain commands, like:

Do not make my Father's house a house of merchandise (John 2:16).

You must be born again (John 3:7).

You ought to wash one another's feet. I [Jesus] have given you an example that you should do as I have done to you (John 13:14-15).

To be clear, are you making #2 & #3 into your non-explicit commands?

#2 is not a command. It is literally saying something like, "it is necessary for you to be born again/from above." When I told you that the more I studied commands, the more I included other forms of grammar into my lists, this is one of the forms I include (although I have made such forms identifiable since they are not really commands). Same goes for #3 (although a different word than #2).

Bible Highlighter · Dec 28, 2020

GDL said:
What exactly is the entrance Jesus is commanding here? At what point of salvation does this apply?

Luke says STRIVE to enter the straight gate. This means we have to strive to enter God's kingdom.
This relates to not justifying sin or iniquity. For it is written:

“Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them, Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are: Then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets. But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity.” (Matthew Luke 13:23-27).

Many will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. Jesus will say to many that He does not know certain believers and He will tell them to depart from Him because they worked iniquity (i.e. they worked sin). Meaning, these believers did not truly know Jesus because they justified sin in this life. They thought they could commit mortal unrepentant sin and still be saved. The same truth is expressed in Matthew 7. In fact, in Matthew 7:13-14 we are commanded to enter the narrow gate. Then in Matthew 7:23 we are told that there are certain believers who did wonderful works in Christ's name and then Christ told them to depart from Him because He did not know them on account that they worked iniquity. This makes sense because 1 John 2:3 teaches us that we can have an assurance that we know the Lord if we find that we are keeping His commandments (Note: 1 John 2:4 basically says that the person who says they know the Lord and they do not keep His commandments is liar and the truth is not in them). Matthew 7:26-27 double confirms the truth in Matthew 7:23. Jesus essentially says that everyone who does not do what He says is like a fool who has built His house upon the sand, and when a storm came, great was the fall of that house.

You said:
To be clear, are you making #2 & #3 into your non-explicit commands?

No. I believe they are explicit commands.

You said:
#2 is not a command. It is literally saying something like, "it is necessary for you to be born again/from above." When I told you that the more I studied commands, the more I included other forms of grammar into my lists, this is one of the forms I include (although I have made such forms identifiable since they are not really commands). Same goes for #3 (although a different word than #2).

You have to remember that I believe the KJB is my final word of authority.
The word “must” includes a necessity and the imperative language used, “Ye” (You-all) must be born again."

“Marvel not that I said unto thee [you-all], Ye [You-all] must be born again.” (John 3:7) (KJB).

Note: The words in blue and in brackets is my commentary to the text above.

The New King James says,
“Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’”

It's clearly was a command not only to Nicodemus but to all men. So we can read these words, “You” as in reference to us. For without being born again, we cannot be saved. You MUST be born again. It's not, if you feel like being born again, you should try it out. The word “must” does not sound like an option but an imperative. I know. You think you know Biblical Greek, but I am pretty sure you did not grow up in Biblical times to truly know this language like Paul did. I am pretty sure you don't know more than the KJB translators. I just simply trust God's Word was preserved for our day today based on believing Psalms 12:6-7 (Which is altered in Modern Translations). God does not require me to know a dead language that is nearly impossible to know in order to understand what He says in His Word.

“Seek ye out of the book of the LORD, and read: no one of these shall fail, none shall want her mate: for my mouth it hath commanded, and his spirit it hath gathered them.” (Isaiah 34:16).

We are told to seek out the book of the LORD. Yet, if one believes that we do not have the original autographs, then there is no real book of the LORD in existence today. I don't have this problem. I can have the book of the LORD in my hands and teach it with authority (i.e. the KJB). But men do not like being under an authority. They want to be the authority, and make God's Word say what they want it to say. I just read and believe my Bible. There is no need to jump through hoops to understand God's Word.

The other command I have listed also has words like “OUGHT” which suggests an imperative. Jesus says He has given us an example that you “SHOULD” (not if you feel like it).... that you SHOULD DO as I have done to you.

You ought to wash one another's feet. I have given you an example that you should do as I have done to you (John 13:14-15).

So John 3:7 and John 3:14-15 does not sound like an option to me. They sound like clearly directives or commands. But we can agree to disagree. I just read my Bible and if it sounds like it is a command based on the grammar in the English used in the KJB, then it is a command.

Bible Highlighter · Dec 28, 2020

GDL said:
The bold highlighting in your quote is mine, so I can be reminded of what you mean by "non-explicit"

Right, God's Word is commanding “man” and not “you” the reader. This is why I labeled it as a non-explicit command.

You said:
#2 & #3 have no commands language. What you're calling "translation" might be better labeled "interpretation" in order to consider them as commands.

#2 and #3 in my non-explicit commands list mention adultery. I originally made these non-explicit commands because adultery is clearly commanded against by the Lord Jesus Christ Himself (Matthew 19:17-18). But I know what you are saying. The language itself does not sound like this is a command. There is no “ought,” or “must” or “should.” But seeing these actions leads to something that is commanded against, it does not sound like something optional. But I will pray and think more on these two.

Your "translation" of #2 seems redundant & not correctly interpreting the instruction. Also, there is no command to divorce, just a possibility of divorce.

Whether it's a command or not, the translation is correct. God does not want us to divorce unless it be for fornication.

You said:
Are you sure about #4? If you want to call them laws on marriage, is Jesus still allowing what Moses allowed? Or is Jesus addressing the disciples' statement about it being better not to marry?

In context: Jesus is saying that there are some who cannot receive the laws on marriage because they are enuchs, etc.; Jesus is commanding that those who are able to receive the laws on marriage to receive such laws (i.e. the laws on marriage that He was teaching).

GDL · Dec 28, 2020

Bible Highlighter said:
Luke says STRIVE to enter the straight gate. This means we have to strive to enter God's kingdom.
This relates to not justifying sin or iniquity. For it is written:

“Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them, Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are: Then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets. But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity.” (Matthew 7:23-27).

A little housecleaning first: You have this labeled as Matt7, but it's Luke13.

Knowing your thinking on what salvation is - it being a process - and being mostly in agreement with you (apart from a few differences in choices of terminology), I think we're pretty much in agreement here also.

Knowing your KJB reliance, do you see "enter in" in the following verse to be speaking of eactly the same thing?:

KJV Luke 13:24 Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.

I'm going to piecemeal responses to keep them shorter and separate.

GDL · Dec 28, 2020

Bible Highlighter said:
No. I believe they are explicit commands.

Hopefully we can find agreement somewhere in this. Just because we believe something doesn't make it true.

The fact is that this is language of instruction, not command. To "believe" this is an "explicit" command is really not correct, because to be "explicit" basically means there is nothing being implied. But you are taking an implication and turning it into an "explicit" command. This is interpretation, not translation.

For common ground, as I've said a few times now, I too identify such language (specific Greek words) and have added them into my commands list, but I identify the language as not being explicitly a command, because it is not. There is implied command in the instruction, but not explicit command.

Again, we end up in a very similar place, but not using the same language. This is why I've been careful to ask you to clarify your use of "explicit" and "non-explicit."

Bible Highlighter said:
You have to remember that I believe the KJB is my final word of authority.
The word “must” includes a necessity and the imperative language used, “Ye” (You-all) must be born again."

“Marvel not that I said unto thee [you-all], Ye [You-all] must be born again.” (John 3:7) (KJB).
Note: The words in blue and in brackets is my commentary to the text above.

The New King James says,
“Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’”

I agree that the KJV handles some things like plurals better than other English translations. When translating I normally identify singular & plural & I normally have 9 or 10 English versions, 2-3 Greek versions, a couple LXX versions, and a Hebrew version on screen when working in Scripture. I post with different translations at times, but mainly use the NKJ because I got very used to its wording and doing searches in it. At times I simply supply my own translation. I appreciate your pointing out the differences in plural in the KJV & NKJ here, but you're preaching to the choir, as they say.

Since I'm on this topic, I'm going to jump ahead and deal with something else you said. My intent is to put it to rest, so we can deal with commands. Is this not the point of your thread?

Bible Highlighter said:
I know. You think you know Biblical Greek, but I am pretty sure you did not grow up in Biblical times to truly know this language like Paul did. I am pretty sure you don't know more than the KJB translators. I just simply trust God's Word was preserved for our day today based on believing Psalms 12:6-7 (Which is altered in Modern Translations). God does not require me to know a dead language that is nearly impossible to know in order to understand what He says in His Word.

I don't think I know Biblical Greek, but know I know it to some fairly decent degree. I use this terminology ("fairly decent degree") to defer to your comparing me to Paul & the KJB translators and dumb remark about when I grew up. All such knowledge is certainly relative. But, frankly speaking, you don't have the knowledge or capacity to judge what I know or don't know about the languages. Those that do have some level of capacity gave me high grades throughout my years of sitting under their instruction and testing. So, I'd ask you to stop this line of discussion.

As for your KJB preference. I'm aware of those who have such preference, have discoursed with more than a few over the years, have read a fair amount of research on the matter, and have compared English & Greek & Hebrew translations for about 3 decades now. I'm also aware that you consider yourself as not the normal KJB user. Good enough. I can deal with your preference, but IMO opinion, which is all you also have at the end of the discussion, the KJB debate has been dealt with and its areas of lack are well documented.

No, you don't need to know Greek or Hebrew if you don't want to. It's not always just about the language, but many times it can be.

IMO we've come to agreements that I do not have with others who also know the languages. Assuming what we agree upon is correct, this just tells me you're a serious student who God is treating as such. I've known others like you who do well with the English, and not just the KJB. But my call was different and my favorite readings have ultimately been in exegetical works detailing specifics from the actual original languages of Scripture.

Please redirect yourself from this KJB preaching. I understand your preference. If you think I say something wrong from looking into Greek or Hebrew, please feel free to identify it. I'll do the same from whatever resources I use to explain my reasoning. If you conclude that the KJB is the only acceptable authority on the matter, I'll likely just move on and leave you to yourself as I was doing up to this point before your latest remarks.

Was trying to keep brief before this response. Sorry for the failure.

Bible Highlighter · Dec 28, 2020

GDL said:
A little housecleaning first: You have this labeled as Matt7, but it's Luke13.

Yes, I said it was Luke 13 initially, and mistakenly put the wrong book and chapter quotation in (Which is from the parallel passage). I also got the verse numbers correct. In other words, it was a typo and not intentional. I just fixed the problem in my original post.

You said:
Knowing your thinking on what salvation is - it being a process - and being mostly in agreement with you (apart from a few differences in choices of terminology), I think we're pretty much in agreement here also.

I am glad to hear that, brother.

You said:
Knowing your KJB reliance, do you see "enter in" in the following verse to be speaking of eactly the same thing?:

KJV Luke 13:24 Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.

The parallel verse of Luke 13:24 is Matthew 7:13. Matthew 7:13 says, “Enter ye in at the strait gate”
In this case, I see Luke 13:24 as providing the full version of this command whereas Matthew 7:13 is merely given us the more simpler or less complete version of it.

You said:
I'm going to piecemeal responses to keep them shorter and separate.

Sounds good.

GDL · Dec 28, 2020

Bible Highlighter said:
Whether it's a command or not, the translation is correct. God does not want us to divorce unless it be for fornication.

Here's the verse and your translation (interpretation):

Bible Highlighter said:
Whoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, commits adultery: (Matthew 19:9) (Translation: You shall not put away your wife, except it be for fornication, and neither shall you put away your wife to marry another).

Some observations & thoughts:

KJV Matthew 19:9 And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery.

NAS Matthew 19:9 "And I say to you, whoever divorces his wife, except for immorality, and marries another woman commits adultery."

- Firstly, what KJB are you using and why are you not posting from it? Here's the one in my software system I'm using: KJA, KJG Authorized Version (KJV) - 1769 Blayney Edition of the 1611 King James Version of the English Bible - with Larry Pierce's Englishman's-Strong's Numbering System, ASCII version. Copyright © 1988-1997 by the Online Bible Foundation and Woodside Fellowship of Ontario, Canada. Licensed from the Institute for Creation Research. Used by permission.

- Next, there is a variant in manuscripts in this verse, as can be seen between the more lengthy KJV translation vs. the NAS translation shown above.

- Using what you stated in the part you quoted, here's what's stated (paraphrased):

- Unless your wife has fornicated, if you put her away (divorce her) and marry another, then you commit adultery

- There is really just one situation stated here as it relates to his adultery (which is all you quoted):

- A man puts his wife away and marries another

- There are 2 potentials in his divorcing his wife & remarrying:

- His wife had fornicated, so he is not guilty of adultery
- His wife had not fornicated, so he is guilty of adultery

- If you're changing this into commands, then there is only one specific command here related to his potential of being adulterous:

- Do not put away your wife and marry another if your wife has not fornicated (the implication seems to be he divorced to remarry another)

- There are also some implied allowances (not commands):

- You may put away your wife and remain single if she has fornicated

- You may put away your wife and marry another if your wife has fornicated

- There is no command to put away your wife if she has fornicated

- Your "translation": "You shall not put away your wife, except it be for fornication, and neither shall you put away your wife to marry another.":

- Your wording shows 2 commands, which may not be an issue in itself, but they seem redundant, assuming the fornication condition for both:

- You shall not put away your wife except it be for fornication

- You shall not put away your wife and marry another except it be for fornication

- The second point seems pretty much a given based upon the first point - thus the redundancy.

- There are a few more issues that hit me when I first read your "translation":

- You shall not put away your wife unless she fornicates

- Seems OK, but could also be turned into a command to put her away if she does fornicate, which is not commanded here.

- You shall not put away your wife to marry another

- It's probably clear to you that fornication is still involved, but it's not absolutely clear to me in reading what you wrote

- As stated, yours is not a translation, but an interpretative choice to state a couple words (Greek and/or English) as commands rather than as necessity or obligation as they are actually stated.

And here are my points:

- Precision, just as you said you're striving for.

- If we're going to interpret/change verses like these into commands, then I could argue that it's even more imperative to stay consistent with Scripture and to be absolutely clear. For example: if someone takes your language and thinks he must obey God and divorces his wife because she has fornicated, then you have just put a condition on someone that our Lord did not.

- Welcome to the history of the church as it sorts out and/or abuses His Word and authority.

- KJV James 3:1 My brethren, be not many masters, knowing that we shall receive the greater condemnation. vs. NKJ James 3:1 My brethren, let not many of you become teachers, knowing that we shall receive a stricter judgment.

Whether one favors "masters" or "teachers" as the translation (8 English translation on screen favor "teachers" and only the KJV uses "masters") - the point is clear: Be cautious in speaking for God and presenting His Word to others.

GDL · Dec 28, 2020

Bible Highlighter said:
The parallel verse of Luke 13:24 is Matthew 7:13. Matthew 7:13 says, “Enter ye in at the strait gate”
In this case, I see Luke 13:24 as providing the full version of this command whereas Matthew 7:13 is merely given us the more simpler or less complete version of it.

Thanks. This doesn't answer my question. I'll try to clarify:

KJV Luke 13:24 Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.

Do you see the 2 statements of "enter in" to be speaking of the same thing - meaning does "many...will seek to enter in" refer back to "Strive to enter in"?

Lets talk about the New Testament commandments (No Sabbath Talk Please)...

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

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Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

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Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

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Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

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Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

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