Lordship Salvation

Lordship salvation attempts to mix law and grace. Law and grace have to be rightly divided.

MMXX said:

I'm struggling to understand this concept. Basically as I understand it so far, salvation entails commitment, obedience and perseverance. But it has been criticized as teaching works based / performance based salvation.
And it's hard for me to get how one can describe it in a plain concise way that excludes performance. One of it's best known teachers, has said point blank that if his salvation was up to him in any way, he would not have it. So it's basically at this time clear as mud to me.

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Salvation is not what you do for God, but rather, its what God did for you, as a GIFT.
And what is that?
Well, MMXX.... You understand enough to know that you have sinned.
Yet, God hasn't.

You live here, down here, where sinners live.
God does not.. He lives where sin does not exist.

So, what is salvation? What is "Being Saved"? What is : 'Jesus SAVES"?

Its this:

Its Jesus Saving you....by taking the punishment for your sin, and giving you eternal life in place of your sin.
ITs that simple.

Sinners down here......are ALL offered by God a WAY to become a part of God's family up there.
And you can become a part of it, down here, and in fact, you have to, if you are to become a part of it at all.
So, what is keeping you out of "up there.....out of God's Family?
Why are you not a part of God's family, right now?
Its because of your SIN.

MMXX.... unforgiven Sin keeps you out of God's family, until your sin is resolved by being forgiven and forgotten.
You can't resolve it, as you have commited it.... you've sinned.
You're a sinner.
So, God has resolved it, and offers this eternal resolution as a GIFT to you. A Love Gift.
If you take God's Gift, your sin is resolved as if you've never sinned, and you are kept this way, BY God's solution.

What is that solution?
Its the CROSS.
The Cross is the bridge that God Built, between you and Himself, using Jesus's Blood and that Cross.
Its literally an eternal bridge that reconnects you to GOD, if you will go there and get on it.
How do you get on it?
By Trusting in Christ to save you.
By taking Jesus into your heart, by FAITH, by BELIEVING in Jesus.
If you take Jesus, God takes you.

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So, did you notice that all that is God doing something for you?
Its all OF GOD, given, given, given, as THE GIFT of Love. = The GIFT of Salvation.
Its a GIFT.

Christ on the Cross is God's Love Gift to this world........to you.

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Ok,
you have to see the GIFT of Salvation, that its a GIFT.... to see what is wrong with "lordship" salvation,... this wrong theology.
In other words, you have to know what is right, to see what is wrong.

Now, "lordship salvation", is a twisted idea that tries to replace God's Love GIFT... with your self effort.....They call it "lordship salvation".
Those who teach this false theology, are trying to put the Christian on the Cross, as a "lordship" obedience type of self effort.
So, that takes the Gift of LOVE away from God's Salvation and flips it into a "do this to keep it".... self effort situation, called "lordship".

MMXX, something to remember....>Jesus is LORD....>He is Lord of All. He is always THE LORD, of all, no matter if a person trusts Him or hates Him.
Jesus becomes our personal savior when we Trust Him, but his Lordship, is universal, its eternal.
This world does not make Jesus Lord, as He is already Lord of All.

MMXX.....Remember that bridge between you and God? That is the Cross.
That Cross is a GIFT from God to the World, to everyone.
That Cross is God saying......"COME HOME".....
There is no other bridge, and there is no other WAY you can become a part of God's family.

Lordship salvation is a teaching that is false, that tries to subvert this Gift....this Bridge, with the idea that you are the bridge, and this bridge is your effort and your lifestyle.

There are many false teachings that try to take God's Gift away, by replacing it with self effort, and Lordship Salvation is just one more on that pile of darkness.
Its a subverted and twisted teaching because it pretends to be "christian", but its really a rejection of God's love and mercy and Grace..... by trying to replace those with your self effort to get God to keep you after all of this is already resolved, once and for all, by being SAVED.

MMXX said:

I'm struggling to understand this concept. Basically as I understand it so far, salvation entails commitment, obedience and perseverance. But it has been criticized as teaching works based / performance based salvation.

And it's hard for me to get how one can describe it in a plain concise way that excludes performance. One of it's best known teachers, has said point blank that if his salvation was up to him in any way, he would not have it. So it's basically at this time clear as mud to me.

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There can be a variety of reasons for doing good works, so there is a huge difference between these two statements:

1.) We are required to do good works, but for the purpose of earning our salvation

2.) We are required to do good works for the purpose of earning our salvation.

Promoting (2) would be promoting a works based salvation while promoting (1) is not, however the issue is generally that proponents of Lordship salvation are promoting (1), but not (2), while opponents of Lordship salvation are arguing against (2) in order to argue against (1). God's law straightforwardly does what it was given to do and does not do what it was not given to do, so the fact that we don't need to obey it for the purpose of earning our salvation does not mean that we are not required to obey it for the purposes for which it was given. In Romans 3:31, Paul did not want us to conclude from the preceding verses that our faith abolishes our need to obey God's law, but rather he concluded by saying that our faith upholds God's law, so speaking against obeying God's law for incorrect reasons is not speaking against obeying it for the correct reasons.

If our obedience to God's law were for God's good, then it would have been about trying to earn our salvation, however, God's law was given for our own good (Deuteronomy 6:24, 10:12-13), so our obedience is instead about putting our faith in God to guide us in how to rightly live, and it is by that same faith that we are saved. In Matthew 11:28-30 and Jeremiah 6:16-19, the Mosaic Law is described as the good way where we will find rest for our souls, however, thinking that our obedience to it is about needing to have a good enough performance instead of being about putting our faith in God to rightly guide us robs our souls of the rest that it was intended to give.

MMXX said:

I'm struggling to understand this concept. Basically as I understand it so far, salvation entails commitment, obedience and perseverance. But it has been criticized as teaching works based / performance based salvation.

And it's hard for me to get how one can describe it in a plain concise way that excludes performance. One of it's best known teachers, has said point blank that if his salvation was up to him in any way, he would not have it. So it's basically at this time clear as mud to me.

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Yes, you should be struggling. Salvation doesn't entail "commitment, obedience, and perseverance" in the sense of obeying laws, commands, rules, precepts, sacraments, etc., that are designed to modify our behavior. Obedience is believing God. Believing God in that you are no longer under the law, that you have every spiritual blessing in Christ, and have been given everything you need for a godly life. The Christian life, therefore, is not one of getting your flesh in line (which you will never completely do), it is about trusting in and depending on the indwelling Holy Spirit to live His life in and through you. There is no rest in concepts like "Lordship Salvation" because the work is never done. There is always a sin to overcome, work needing your attention, and some fellow Christian to appease. Jesus said His burden is light and His yoke is easy. The sin issue is over between you and God, and now He does His work through you. Therefore, if your burden is heavy and your yoke unbearable, there is something you are believing that is incorrect. Merry Christmas.

MMXX said:

I'm struggling to understand this concept. Basically as I understand it so far, salvation entails commitment, obedience and perseverance. But it has been criticized as teaching works based / performance based salvation....

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But, what do you think salvation means?

I have understood it means, sins are forgiven and so you are saved from the judgment that would come because of sin.

For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Romans 6:23

These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.
Mat. 25:46

Person can’t do anything to make the judge to forgive. Forgiveness is a free gift. But, eternal life is promised only for righteous. So, to get the life, person must be or become righteous. And, if person is righteous, it will come visible in his actions, because righteous person does righteous things. It is like a good tree that produces good fruit.

let no one lead you astray. He who does righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. To this end the Son of God was revealed, that he might destroy the works of the devil. Whoever is born of God doesn't commit sin, because his seed remains in him; and he can't sin, because he is born of God. In this the children of God are revealed, and the children of the devil. Whoever doesn't do righteousness is not of God, neither is he who doesn't love his brother.
1 John 3:7-10

MMXX said:

I'm struggling to understand this concept. Basically as I understand it so far, salvation entails commitment, obedience and perseverance. But it has been criticized as teaching works based / performance based salvation.

And it's hard for me to get how one can describe it in a plain concise way that excludes performance. One of it's best known teachers, has said point blank that if his salvation was up to him in any way, he would not have it. So it's basically at this time clear as mud to me.

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I tell you "i am your friend." You point out that I never call, never check in, never see you except in passing.
That's saying you are Christian, but having no works. You have to ask yourself why call yourself Christian if you don't want to love your neighbor as yourself?

I tell you that you have to call me your best friend. I helped you move. I'm always asking you to do stuff, I listened to you cry about your annoying girlfriend for an hour...i made a list, let me get it. You OWE me this. You think I wanted to help you move??
.
Thinking works saves you.

I like you. I'm there for you, and you are there for me. I loaned you $100 once, knowing you were having a hard time and wouldn't be able to pay me back. I did it because you are my bro. I'm honored to call you my friend. We don't have to keep tallies on who paid last, who owes whom. We just value each other.
That's saved through salvation and the works being the natural fruit you bear as a result of your relationship with Christ.

Because I'm gay, someone angrily said, "When you stand before the Father and he asks why you deserve to enter heaven, what are you going to say???"
I said, "I don't deserve it, Father," and smile and bow my head

He didn't know how to respond. My guess is he will tell the Father he has kept all the commandments. He earned his way in, It negates the mercy of God forgiving us, and Christ's crucifixion.

MMXX said:

"Lordship Salvation" is a very specific laid out theological viewpoint. I'm hoping to talk with those already familiar with it. Anyone who's unfamiliar with it, I'd say to look it up. There's many articles about it on the internet, but I don't know the best one to post. In my opinion it can't really be properly spoken about without being familiar with it.

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When Jesus carried His cross up Golgotha to be crucified, no one was thinking of the cross as symbolic of a burden to carry. To a person in the first-century, the cross meant one thing and one thing only: death by the most painful and humiliating means human beings could develop.

Two thousand years later, Christians view the cross as a cherished symbol of atonement, forgiveness, grace, and love. But in Jesus’ day, the cross represented nothing but torturous death. Because the Romans forced convicted criminals to carry their own crosses to the place of crucifixion, bearing a cross meant carrying their own execution device while facing ridicule along the way to death.

Therefore, “Take up your cross and follow Me” means being willing to die in order to follow Jesus. This is called “dying to self.” It’s a call to absolute surrender. After each time Jesus commanded cross bearing, He said, “For whoever wants to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for me will save it. What good is it for a man to gain the whole world, and yet lose or forfeit his very self?” (Luke 9:24-25). Although the call is tough, the reward is matchless.

When Jesus began teaching that He was going to die at the hands of the Jewish leaders and their Gentile overlords (Luke 9:22), His popularity sank. Many of the shocked followers rejected Him. Truly, they were not able to put to death their own ideas, plans, and desires, and exchange them for His.

Following Jesus is easy when life runs smoothly; our true commitment to Him is revealed during trials. Jesus assured us that trials will come to His followers (John 16:33). Discipleship demands sacrifice, and Jesus never hid that cost.

In Luke 9:57-62, three people seemed willing to follow Jesus. When Jesus questioned them further, their commitment was half-hearted at best. They failed to count the cost of following Him. None was willing to take up his cross and crucify upon it his own interests.

Therefore, Jesus appeared to dissuade them. How different from the typical Gospel presentation! How many people would respond to an altar call that went, “Come follow Jesus, and you may face the loss of friends, family, reputation, career, and possibly even your life”? The number of false converts would likely decrease! Such a call is what Jesus meant when He said, “Take up your cross and follow Me.”

If you wonder if you are ready to take up your cross, consider these questions:

• Are you willing to follow Jesus if it means losing some of your closest friends?
• Are you willing to follow Jesus if it means alienation from your family?
• Are you willing to follow Jesus if it means the loss of your reputation?
• Are you willing to follow Jesus if it means losing your job?
• Are you willing to follow Jesus if it means losing your life?

In some places of the world, these consequences are reality. But notice the questions are phrased, “Are you willing?” Following Jesus doesn’t necessarily mean all these things will happen to you, but are you willing to take up your cross? If there comes a point in your life where you are faced with a choice—Jesus or the comforts of this life—which will you choose?

Commitment to Christ means taking up your cross daily, giving up your hopes, dreams, possessions, even your very life if need be for the cause of Christ. Only if you willingly take up your cross may you be called His disciple (Luke 14:27). The reward is worth the price. Jesus followed His call of death to self (“Take up your cross and follow Me”) with the gift of life in Christ: “For whoever wants to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for me will find it” (Matthew 16:25-26).got?


The Great Commission

16 But the eleven disciples proceeded to Galilee, to the mountain which Jesus had designated. 17 When they saw Him, they worshiped Him; but some were doubtful. 18 And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.”

So being a disciple is not an option its the beginning point in the great commission. One cannot be a follower of Jesus without being His Disciple. A Disciple is the starting point of a believer, a christian.


Who is the Lord ?

Thomas said to him, ‘My Lord and my God!’” (John 20:28). From then on, the apostles’ message was that Jesus is Lord, meaning “Jesus is God.” Peter’s sermon on the Day of Pentecost contained that theme: “Let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Messiah” (Acts 2:36). Later, in Cornelius’s house, Peter declared that Jesus is “Lord of all” (Acts 10:36). Note how in Romans 10:9 Jesus’ lordship is linked to His resurrection: “If you declare with your mouth, ‘Jesus is Lord,’ and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”

The statement “Jesus is Lord” means that Jesus is God. Jesus has “all authority in heaven and on earth” (Matthew 28:18). He is Lord of the Sabbath (Luke 6:5). He is “our only Sovereign and Lord” (Jude 1:4). He is, in fact, the Lord of lords (Revelation 17:14).

Jesus referred to Himself as “Lord” many times (e.g., Luke 19:31; John 13:13). And when we compare the Old Testament with the New, we find several times when the “LORD” (Yahweh) of the Hebrew Bible is equated with the “Lord Jesus” by the apostles. For example, Psalm 34:8 says, “Taste and see that the LORD is good,” and that passage is alluded to in 1 Peter 2:3, except there Jesus is the “Lord” who is good. Isaiah 8:13 says that “the LORD Almighty is the one you are to regard as holy”; in 1 Peter 3:15 we are commanded, “In your hearts honor Christ the Lord as holy” (ESV).

Amazingly, the Lord Jesus left His exalted position in heaven and came to earth to save us. In His Incarnation, He showed us what true meekness looks like (see Matthew 11:29). Just before His arrest, Jesus used His power and authority to teach us humility: “Now that I, your Lord and Teacher, have washed your feet, you also should wash one another’s feet” (John 13:14). The last will be first, according to our Lord (Matthew 19:30).

In saying, “Jesus is Lord,” we commit ourselves to obey Him. Jesus asked, “Why do you call me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ and do not do what I say?” (Luke 6:46). An acknowledgement of Jesus’ lordship is logically accompanied by a submission to Jesus’ authority. If Jesus is Lord, then He owns us; He has the right to tell us what to do.

A person who says, “Jesus is Lord,” with a full understanding of what that means (Jesus is God and has supreme authority over all things) has been divinely enlightened: “No one can say, ‘Jesus is Lord,’ except by the Holy Spirit” (1 Corinthians 12:3). Faith in the Lord Jesus is required for salvation (Acts 16:31).

Jesus is Lord. It’s the truth, whether or not people acknowledge the fact. He is more than the Messiah, more than the Savior; He is the Lord of all. Someday, all will submit to that truth: “God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father” (Philippians 2:9–11).got?


Cheap Grace !

The term “cheap grace” can be traced back to a book written by German theologian, Dietrich Bonhoeffer, called The Cost of Discipleship, published in 1937. In that book, Bonhoeffer defined “cheap grace” as “the preaching of forgiveness without requiring repentance, baptism without church discipline. Communion without confession. Cheap grace is grace without discipleship, grace without the cross, grace without Jesus Christ.” Notice what is emphasized in Bonhoeffer’s definition of cheap grace and what is de-emphasized. The emphasis is on the benefits of Christianity without the costs involved; hence, the adjective cheap to describe it.

Jesus, in His Great Commission to the 11 remaining disciples, commanded them to go into all the world and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them and teaching them to observe all that He had commanded them (Matthew 28:19-20). Evangelism and discipleship go hand in hand. A disciple is one who observes (keeps, obeys) all that Jesus has commanded. There is no two-stage process in Christianity—first, be saved; then become a disciple. This arbitrary distinction is foreign to the New Testament and therefore foreign to Christianity.

To play off the title of Bonhoeffer’s book, let’s look at what Jesus said to His disciples about discipleship in Luke 14:25-33. In that passage, Jesus says to the crowds that no one can be His disciple unless they first hate their family (v. 26). Furthermore, the one who cannot bear his own cross cannot be His disciple (v. 27). Two conditions are given by Jesus in order to be His disciple. The first is to be willing to renounce family in order to follow Jesus. The second is to be willing to die, both literally and metaphorically (“die to self”) in order to follow Jesus. Jesus then gives two examples of “counting the cost.” The first is an example of a man who desires to build a tower without first counting the cost of building the tower. After realizing he cannot complete it, he gives up in shame and embarrassment. The second is that of a king preparing to go to battle and making sure he can defend against the superior foe. The point Jesus is making is that discipleship has a cost.

Furthermore, discipleship requires repentance and obedience. At the beginning of Jesus’ ministry, the message He preached was a message of repentance (Matthew 4:17). The message of the apostles after Jesus’ resurrection and ascension was also one of repentance (Acts 2:38). Along with repentance comes obedience. Jesus told a crowd of listeners that salvation and obedience go hand in hand: “Why do you call me ‘Lord, Lord,’ and not do what I tell you?” (Luke 6:46). Jesus then goes on to differentiate the one who builds his house on the sand from the one who builds his house on the rock, that is, the man who not only hears the words of Jesus, but does them, too.

Cheap grace seeks to hide the cost of discipleship from people. It seeks to claim that as long as we make a profession of faith, we are saved. God’s grace covers all our sins. Again, that is a wonderful truth! The apostle Paul says as much when he writes, “Now the law came in to increase the trespass, but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more, so that, as sin reigned in death, grace also might reign through righteousness leading to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord” (Romans 5:20-21). Yet, right after writing that, Paul follows it with this: “What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it?” (Romans 6:1-2). Salvation by grace alone through faith alone is so much more than simply mouthing the words “Jesus is Lord.” We are not saved by a profession of faith. We are not saved by praying the Sinner’s Prayer. We are not saved by signing a card or walking an aisle. We are saved by a living and active faith (James 2:14-26), a faith that manifests itself in repentance, obedience and love of God and our neighbor. Salvation is not a transaction; it’s a transformation. Paul says it best when he says we are “new creations” in Christ (2 Corinthians 5:17). There is nothing “cheap” about grace! got?



Matthew 10:24-39

The Meaning of Discipleship

24 “A disciple is not above his teacher, nor a slave above his master. 25 It is enough for the disciple that he become like his teacher, and the slave like his master. If they have called the head of the house Beelzebul, how much more will they malign the members of his household!

26 “Therefore do not fear them, for there is nothing concealed that will not be revealed, or hidden that will not be known. 27 What I tell you in the darkness, speak in the light; and what you hear whispered in your ear, proclaim upon the housetops. 28 Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. 29 Are not two sparrows sold for a cent? And yet not one of them will fall to the ground apart from your Father. 30 But the very hairs of your head are all numbered. 31 So do not fear; you are more valuable than many sparrows.

32 “Therefore everyone who confesses Me before men, I will also confess him before My Father who is in heaven. 33 But whoever denies Me before men, I will also deny him before My Father who is in heaven.

34 “Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35 For I came to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law; 36 and a man’s enemies will be the members of his household.

37 “He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me; and he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me. 38 And he who does not take his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me. 39 He who has found his life will lose it, and he who has lost his life for My sake will find it.


That’s what the majority of churches teach that all one has to do is "accept Jesus" and you will experience the abundant life and everything will be great and God will bless you with the desires of your heart. And we wonder why the " church" in America has no influence in our culture. The fact is Jesus made it hard to follow Him and said it might very well cost you your life, family, friends etc..... He said to count the cost before attempting to follow Him and many turned away from Him. In fact, Jesus said if the hate Me they will hate you and you will suffer persecution on My behalf. God’s word promises believers that they will face various trials but God will be there will you so that you might stand up under those trials. This easy believism in our culture has no effect on it whatsoever but those who count the cost and Jesus is their Lord will endure under hardship and He will sustain you. Most want to go to a church that makes them feel good, build up their self-esteem with the prosperity gospel, heath and wealth, name it and claim it false teaching that are prevalent on TV and many churches not only in the US but abroad. It’s a sad case how those teachers are leading people away from the Living God with their heresies.

hope this helps !!!

It really is as simple as my tag line. The act of Salvation or redemption is all of God and none of man. A person who is redeemed by God will begin to act like Christ as the person is changed by the power of the Holy Spirit and in that process the person will commit acts or works that display the change. Yes it is a bit more complicated but the act or process of redemption is not at all of man.

MMXX said:

I think Lordship Salvation is the answer to the question; "Okay I'm saved, now what?"

I would imagine and hope that most people who become a believer in salvation in Christ, want to know where they are supposed to go from there.

I'd say salvation isn't supposed to be like getting a flu shot, where one takes a couple of minutes out to get inoculated and then resumes the same exact life as usual.

Q: "Okay, I'm saved now, right?"
A: "Yes that's right"
Q: "Okay, so where do I go from here?"
A: "You work on being committed and obedient and stick to it"

I think that's what Philippians 2:12 means by working out your salvation. Not working for your salvation, because you've already been saved, but working on being committed and obedient to Christ and sticking to it.

Q: "So now that I'm saved that means I'm now a Christian, right?"
A: "Yes that's right"
Q: "Okay, so what does a Christian do?"

I think what's being called Lordship Salvation just means doing what a Christian is supposed to do.

I would think and hope that when one asks a Christian, "what's a Christian supposed to do?", their answer wouldn't be "absolutely nothing". Not what does a Christian have to do, but simply what's a Christian supposed to do.

Even a hobby which is something someone does just for entertainment, means doing something.

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What is important to understand is the primary reason for our salvation.

Our salvation is by grace, a gift, freely offered to all. This salvation by grace, is granted purely through that belief in the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

Now that we have locked the gospel into place as the primary doctrine of Christianity. We can discuss other topics such as; do works perfect your faith or is faith without works even possible?

MMXX said:

I think Lordship Salvation is the answer to the question; "Okay I'm saved, now what?"

I would imagine and hope that most people who become a believer in salvation in Christ, want to know where they are supposed to go from there.

I'd say salvation isn't supposed to be like getting a flu shot, where one takes a couple of minutes out to get inoculated and then resumes the same exact life as usual.

Q: "Okay, I'm saved now, right?"
A: "Yes that's right"
Q: "Okay, so where do I go from here?"
A: "You work on being committed and obedient and stick to it"

I think that's what Philippians 2:12 means by working out your salvation. Not working for your salvation, because you've already been saved, but working on being committed and obedient to Christ and sticking to it.

Q: "So now that I'm saved that means I'm now a Christian, right?"
A: "Yes that's right"
Q: "Okay, so what does a Christian do?"

I think what's being called Lordship Salvation just means doing what a Christian is supposed to do.

I would think and hope that when one asks a Christian, "what's a Christian supposed to do?", their answer wouldn't be "absolutely nothing". Not what does a Christian have to do, but simply what's a Christian supposed to do.

Even a hobby which is something someone does just for entertainment, means doing something.

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The Bible describes our salvation in the past, present, and future tenses, so it is all-encompassing in that we have been saved from the penalty of our sin (Ephesians 2:8), we are being saving from continuing to practice sin (Philippians 2:12), and we will be saved from God's wrath on the day of the Lord (Romans 5:9-10). In Titus 2:11-14, our salvation is described as being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good, and to renounce doing what is ungodly. Furthermore verse 14 says that Jesus gave himself to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works, so Titus 2:11-14 is describing both past and present aspects of our salvation. So being trained by grace to do what a Christian is supposed to do through faith is inherently part of Jesus saving us from doing what a Christian is not supposed to do. This is not working for our salvation, but rather it is part of the content of what salvation is.

well said

Tree of Life said:

Lordship salvation is meant to correct the idea that a person can knowingly and unrepentantly continue in sin while at the same time having an absolute assurance of their salvation.

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I don't understand the practicality of this.

For example, I live a life of not loving others as myself. I rob from people, lie often, etc. Then I decide to follow Jesus - only I still want to act selfishly, lying, stealing, etc.

Why would such a person worry about salvation? For when they die? Why would they care? Would they pray, and say, "meh, I'm forgiven, so, I do what I want"? I have yet to meet one person that has said, "yeah, i am saved so I can sin." If you are that excited about sinning, especially things you admit are wrong, you don't care about your walk with Jesus.

I have met people that focus on the sins of others because they love condemning others, but are only condemning themselves. I have met Christians that demand you follow their understanding of what is a sin, rather than following Christ and the HS. I have met Christians who love being right to prove someone else wrong, not to edify. I have met Christians, believing they have authority to decide whether or not I am saved, and deciding I wasn't, demanded I follow the bible, while they themselves were not held to the law of the very book they said was the word of God. I have had Christians tell me God hated me, wanted me dead, that the country should execute gays if we really followed God (wrong on so many levels), even those who suppressed HIV prevention.

But not one person i've ever met has said, "I'm going to have Jesus as my savior and be saved so I can do whatever I want." Not one.



I am less concerned about my eternal life than I am for how I can love others as Christ teaches. I give without asking for anything in return, but do it in secret, pray in secret bc I don't care about others thinking I'm holy. I pray for love, especially for my enemies, because I often don't have it, pray for the ability to forgive those who harmed me the deepest bc I don't have it. I keep no record of these things, but allow myself to be Christ's servant, to reach out to those who need him the most.

Where this gets tricky is with the Christian that equates love only with obedience. They say they keep the commandments. You didn't kill any one today. You didn't steal anything. The big ones. Like obeying the law. But if we could live lives that were sinless, there would be no need for Christ, no need to learn humility and ask forgiveness, no need to learn mercy and grant forgiveness.

And that is usually how it plays out - people with planks in their eye pointing to the speck in their brother's eye to feel morally superior and self righteous.

Whether it was was Simon judging the woman washing Jesus' feet with her tears, the Pharisees judging Christ for not obeying the Sabbath for healing someone, the story of the Good Samaritan who showed live for his neighbor, while the priest and levite obeyed the law but did not love their neighbor and missed the whole point, the message is spoken about repeatedly.

MMXX said:

Basically a saved person will desire a wholesome lifestyle and consider a hedonistic lifestyle repugnant.

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Define that.

Will a saved person with wealth indulge themselves in expensive clothes, lavish vacations, large mansions, ie hedonism?

Will a saved person eat to excess, ie hedonism?

Will a saved person be vain, spending a lot of time on their appearance over their character?

Beanieboy said:

I have yet to meet one person that has said, "yeah, i am saved so I can sin."

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I haven't heard one saying it, but I have met a prison chaplain who I was told (from unrelated sources) has said that. It happens, and by people of some influence.

Also, and maybe more importantly, certainly more commonly, certain theologies, particularly Reformed / Calvinist, are accused of it via OSAS and other misuses of their teachings (by others). 'Lordship Salvation', as I understand it, is intended to counter what others say about Reformed / Calvinist teachings.

MMXX said:

Sorry, not meaning at all to be obstinate, but that still doesn't register. It still sounds like whether a person is saved or not depends on how good they do. As for works piling up as merit, I've been taught that's exactly what works do and are the basis of what heavenly rewards we receive as described in 1 Corinthians 3:12-15

"Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, 13 each one’s work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one’s work, of what sort it is. 14 If anyone’s work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. 15 If anyone’s work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire."

That seems to me to indicate that one can be saved without producing acceptable works, but at great loss.

For me personally the loss of reward wouldn't be as bad as having disappointed my Lord.

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In regards to the parable of the building,
and it's materials in 1 Corinthians 3:

Paul says before the parable, "you are God's building."

So we are the materials that make up the building.

The work is not referring to just any kind of general actions of a believer like good fruit (any kind of good fruit) and evil fruit (sin). The work is referring to those believers we bring to the faith and their eternal status with God (i.e. what kind of building materials are they made up of). The Parable is talking about Paul's work (Which is the Corinthians in this instance).

I believe Paul and the other apostles are a part of the foundation with Christ being the chief cornerstone or the ultimate baseline foundation (Ephesians 2:20), and that Paul's work in the gospel are the result of the Corinthians being initially saved by the gospel. However, Paul is now concerned that his labor in the gospel (concerning them) is now in vain because the Corinthians are now working the sins of strife and envying (Note: Paul condemns the sins of strife and envying when writing to the Galatians (Galatians 5:19-21). Paul says that they which do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God). In Galatians 4:11, Paul was concerned for the Galatians in that they were going back to the Old Law so as to be justified or saved. He was concerned that his labor for the gospel was in vain for the Galatians.

So the parable speaks of how his labor for the gospel (concerning the Corinthians) was now possibly in vain for them, too.


This is what I believe the parable is saying. The works of Paul that will be burned are the Corinthians if they do not repent of their sins of strife and envy (1 Corinthians 3:3). The Corinthians at this point in time are not saved and they will be burned up in the fire and destroyed by God if they don't seek forgiveness with the Lord and turn from their sins of strife and envy. Paul, the apostles, or the gospel preacher is the one who will be saved through fire if his work (the Corinthians) is burned up (on the account of their justifying sin). The parable is not talking about how a believer can sin and still be saved as long as they have a belief on Jesus. It's actually teaching the exact opposite of that. One cannot build sin as a work upon the foundation of Jesus Christ. Jesus did not advocate sin, and neither did He teach that a person can continue to sin and still be saved.

Yes, we are initially and foundationally saved by God's grace, but believers cannot justify sin, and they have to be fruitful for their Lord and live holy as a part of the Sanctification Process.

For Hebrews 12:14-15 says,

“14 Follow peace with all men, and holiness,
without which no man shall see the Lord:
15 Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled;”

MMXX said:

I'm struggling to understand this concept. Basically as I understand it so far, salvation entails commitment, obedience and perseverance. But it has been criticized as teaching works based / performance based salvation.

And it's hard for me to get how one can describe it in a plain concise way that excludes performance. One of it's best known teachers, has said point blank that if his salvation was up to him in any way, he would not have it. So it's basically at this time clear as mud to me.

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Gotquestions has an article on Lordship Salvation here:

What is lordship salvation? | GotQuestions.org

While Gotquestions has some good articles, they are 4 point Calvinists last I recall. Thus, their view of sin and salvation is unbiblical. In fact, all 5 points of Calvinism is not biblical.
Many Non-Calvinist Protestants hold to OSAS or Eternal Security (which is similar or identical to the one point in Calvinism called “Perseverance of the Saints.”).

Anyways, Gotquestions breaks down Lordship Salvation from a Calvinistic perspective. They appear to get it right overall (except towards the end where they imply a true believer will always automatically obey - suggesting that believers do not have to endure to the end and or keep themselves in the love of God). They also mention John MacArthur’s book on Lordship Salvation. However, what the author of the article did not mention in his write up is that MacArthur coincidentally wrote his Lordship Salvation book after the lawsuit upon his church in teaching that a believer who commits suicide is saved (Which led to the suicide of Kenneth Nally). In other words, MacArthur’s teachings on Lordship Salvation is a Trojan horse.

The original teaching of Lordship Salvation is correct in that we must obey and or be loyal to our Lord in order to be truly saved. But can a believer justify the idea that they can also abide in grievous sin (on some level), and still be saved in addition to their Lordship Salvation teaching? Surely not. For Jesus said we cannot serve two masters. Also, neither is Lordship Salvation something that God alone does in us to make us to live a holy life (against our free will), either. God does not force salvation upon anyone. We have to work out our salvation with fear and trembling. Easy Believism and or Christian Uncondtional Election does not sound like Philippians 2:12.

MMXX said:

I think Lordship Salvation is the answer to the question; "Okay I'm saved, now what?"

I would imagine and hope that most people who become a believer in salvation in Christ, want to know where they are supposed to go from there.

I'd say salvation isn't supposed to be like getting a flu shot, where one takes a couple of minutes out to get inoculated and then resumes the same exact life as usual.

Q: "Okay, I'm saved now, right?"
A: "Yes that's right"
Q: "Okay, so where do I go from here?"
A: "You work on being committed and obedient and stick to it"

I think that's what Philippians 2:12 means by working out your salvation. Not working for your salvation, because you've already been saved, but working on being committed and obedient to Christ and sticking to it.

Q: "So now that I'm saved that means I'm now a Christian, right?"
A: "Yes that's right"
Q: "Okay, so what does a Christian do?"

I think what's being called Lordship Salvation just means doing what a Christian is supposed to do.

I would think and hope that when one asks a Christian, "what's a Christian supposed to do?", their answer wouldn't be "absolutely nothing". Not what does a Christian have to do, but simply what's a Christian supposed to do.

Even a hobby which is something someone does just for entertainment, means doing something.

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Looking at Philippians 2:12 itself and the context shows that obedience is in view and the verse is not talking about how the believer is trying to figure out if one has been saved by God's grace.


Notice the words in red above. This is the context of the words in blue. It's obedience and not a person trying to figure out if they are saved by God's grace or not.

Also, many in the sin and still be saved camp will say that the word “fear” is not in reference to “fear” but it is in reference to “holy respect or reverence” or something along those lines. But why is the word “trembling” mentioned in verse 12 if it is not talking about “fear”? See, folks are just not reading and believing this passage at face value because they don't like what it says. We actually do have to fear the Lord and put away grievous sin (i.e. sins in the Bible that are attached with warnings of hellfire and condemnation) out of our lives.