Answer me this question.

Clare73 · Dec 27, 2020

disciple Clint said:
What would you consider the ministry of Paul?

I'm not sure what you are asking.

The Church was commissioned to take the gospel to Israel (Jews) and to all nations (Gentiles).
(Lk 24:47)
The apostles were to take it to the Jews, and Paul was to take it to the Gentiles.

In addition, Paul was given NT revelation, by Jesus personally (v.1) in the third heaven (2Co 12:1-5), of things that were not revealed to the apostles, because there was no context in which to understand this revelation before Jesus' death.

Paul's revelation is authoritative, and the plumb line by which all personal interpretations of prophecy must be measured.

Is that what you are asking?

Clare73 · Dec 27, 2020

disciple Clint said:
But it did happen, remember Ruth was a Moabite, there are other examples

Yes, and they were proselytes, they followed the Law of Moses, they did not remain pagan Gentiles.

It's the pagans they were not to mix it up with, so they would not be influenced by them and their idolatry, a real problem in Israel before the exile.

1213 · Dec 27, 2020

Neostarwcc said:
Question, if God promised Abraham (let's just forget that God had to bring Abraham out of unbelief to begin with) descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky how did he acckmplish his election based on forseen belief?....

I think the election is based on is person righteous or not, because:

These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.
Mat. 25:46

For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Romans 6:23

Abraham was counted righteous, because he was loyal (=faithful) to God.

Same way, also “Christian” is counted righteous, if he is loyal to God.

But the righteous will live by faith. If he shrinks back, my soul has no pleasure in him.
Hebrews 10:38

atpollard · Dec 27, 2020

Eilat said:
You need to understand that the bible is written down by writers who are led of the Holy Spirit.
The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God.
So, God's Spirit is on the page........
Think of it like this...... The bible is Spiritual Dictation.......God giving it, and men writing it down.

So, in John 3:16, it says that God gave Jesus to "whosoever"....that is a universal offer, to the WORLD.
"for God so loved the WORLD"..

= ALL

" ALL who call on the Name of Jesus , shall be saved".

All means All.

All does mean all, however here is John 3:16

[NASB] "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
[KJV] “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.”
[NIV] “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”
[YLT] “for God did so love the world, that His Son -- the only begotten -- He gave, that every one who is believing in him may not perish, but may have life age-during.”

... and the word “all” never appears. What it does say is:

God loves the world
He gave His Son that whosoever (whosoever = whoever = the person that) believes shall not perish

Loaves and Fishes · Dec 27, 2020

Neostarwcc said:
Question, if God promised Abraham (let's just forget that God had to bring Abraham out of unbelief to begin with) descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky how did he acckmplish his election based on forseen belief?

Why didn't he choose Israel this way? Because God said "You are my chosen people not due to any characteristics or qualifications of your own. You are mine" in fact most of Israel doesn't believe in or follow God. So how can God save a people as vast as the stars in the sky if it is based on forseen belief? Do we honestly think billions of people believe on their own after hearing the gospel? Do we honestly think that there isn't some kind of unconditional election going on here? Since God chose Israel unconditonally? Why did God's method of Election change for the gentiles? Please explain.

The house of Israel consists of 12 tribes(sons). Only one ,Judah became the Jewish nation, of course along with the Levites.

atpollard · Dec 27, 2020

Loaves and Fishes said:
The house of Israel consists of 12 tribes(sons). Only one ,Judah became the Jewish nation, of course along with the Levites.

And Benjamin (like Saul/Paul)

Romans 11:1
Philippians 3:5

The unity of Judah and Benjamin:

[1Ki 12:21, 23 NASB] 21 Now when Rehoboam had come to Jerusalem, he assembled all the house of Judah and the tribe of Benjamin, 180,000 chosen men who were warriors, to fight against the house of Israel to restore the kingdom to Rehoboam the son of Solomon. ... 23 "Speak to Rehoboam the son of Solomon, king of Judah, and to all the house of Judah and Benjamin and to the rest of the people, saying,
[1Ch 12:16 NASB] 16 Then some of the sons of Benjamin and Judah came to the stronghold to David.
[2Ch 11:1, 12, 23 NASB] 1 Now when Rehoboam had come to Jerusalem, he assembled the house of Judah and Benjamin, 180,000 chosen men who were warriors, to fight against Israel to restore the kingdom to Rehoboam. ... 12 [He put] shields and spears in every city and strengthened them greatly. So he held Judah and Benjamin. ... 23 He acted wisely and distributed some of his sons through all the territories of Judah and Benjamin to all the fortified cities, and he gave them food in abundance. And he sought many wives [for them.]
[2Ch 14:8 NASB] 8 Now Asa had an army of 300,000 from Judah, bearing large shields and spears, and 280,000 from Benjamin, bearing shields and wielding bows; all of them were valiant warriors.
[2Ch 15:2, 8 NASB] 2 and he went out to meet Asa and said to him, "Listen to me, Asa, and all Judah and Benjamin: the LORD is with you when you are with Him. And if you seek Him, He will let you find Him; but if you forsake Him, He will forsake you. ... 8 Now when Asa heard these words and the prophecy which Azariah the son of Oded the prophet spoke, he took courage and removed the abominable idols from all the land of Judah and Benjamin and from the cities which he had captured in the hill country of Ephraim. He then restored the altar of the LORD which was in front of the porch of the LORD.
[Ezr 1:5 NASB] 5 Then the heads of fathers' [households] of Judah and Benjamin and the priests and the Levites arose, even everyone whose spirit God had stirred to go up and rebuild the house of the LORD which is in Jerusalem.
[Ezr 4:1 NASB] 1 Now when the enemies of Judah and Benjamin heard that the people of the exile were building a temple to the LORD God of Israel,
[Ezr 10:9 NASB] 9 So all the men of Judah and Benjamin assembled at Jerusalem within the three days. It was the ninth month on the twentieth of the month, and all the people sat in the open square [before] the house of God, trembling because of this matter and the heavy rain.
[Neh 11:4 NASB] 4 Some of the sons of Judah and some of the sons of Benjamin lived in Jerusalem. From the sons of Judah: Athaiah the son of Uzziah, the son of Zechariah, the son of Amariah, the son of Shephatiah, the son of Mahalalel, of the sons of Perez;

Guojing · Dec 27, 2020

Clare73 said:
That is confusing to me. If the plan was for
1) Israel to accept Christ,
2) Christ to forgive their sins and live with them in the promised land, and
3) the Jews would bring the world to God,
and none of that happened, but a whole other plan was put into place,
why is that not Plan A and Plan B?

In Ac 3:19-21, Peter exhorts them to repent (v.19) and tells them what they can expect if they do:
1) pardon of their sins (v.19) and
2) the comfort of Christ's coming (vv. 20-21); i.e.,
God will send at the end of this age the same Jesus that was preached to them (v.20), and they crucified,
they are not to wait for another time and another Messiah to be sent to them, this is the time.
There is no sending Jesus a second time, to the Jews or anyone else.
Rather, Jesus must remain in heaven until the time to restore everything (v.21).

That will be at the resurrection (at the redemption of our bodies, Ro 8:23) at the end of time, when everything is restored in the new creation (2Co 5:17; Gal 6:15), for which the whole creation, as well as those who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, have been groaning (Ro 8:22-23) in longing.

I don't see a time frame stated in Mt 19:28.
I see it as the renewal in the new creation (2Co 5:17; Gal 6:15) at the end of time, for which the whole creation and the redeemed have been groaning (Ro 8:22-23).

I do know that it will have its complete fulfillment at the second coming, when the saints in general, especially the 12 apostles, will judge the world as assistants with Christ in the judgment of the great day.

God foresaw Israel would reject him in Acts 7, and planned that thru their fall, gentiles would come to salvation (Romans 11:11).

This is a mystery hidden in God since the foundation of the world, Ephesians 3:9

During the 1000 year millennial reign, there will be mortal humans living on Earth who will need to accept Jesus as their Messiah. That is when Zechariah 8:23 will happen.

Clare73 · Dec 27, 2020

Guojing said:
God foresaw Israel would reject him in Acts 7, and planned that thru their fall, gentiles would come to salvation (Romans 11:11).

This is a mystery hidden in God since the foundation of the world, Ephesians 3:9

During the 1000 year millennial reign, there will be mortal humans living on Earth who will need to accept Jesus as their Messiah. That is when Zechariah 8:23 will happen.

Thanks. . .so you see it as happening in the future and I see it as having already happened, in the return from exile some 400 years before the birth of Christ.

Now it is clear to me.

Guojing · Dec 27, 2020

Clare73 said:
Thanks. . .so you see it as happening in the future and I see it as having already happened, in the return from exile some 400 years before the birth of Christ.

Now it is clear to me.

You mean God actually dwell with them in Jerusalem 400 years before the birth of Christ?

I thought those 400 years were years of complete silence from God?

Loaves and Fishes · Dec 27, 2020

atpollard said:
And Benjamin (like Saul/Paul)

Romans 11:1

Philippians 3:5

The unity of Judah and Benjamin:

[1Ki 12:21, 23 NASB] 21 Now when Rehoboam had come to Jerusalem, he assembled all the house of Judah and the tribe of Benjamin, 180,000 chosen men who were warriors, to fight against the house of Israel to restore the kingdom to Rehoboam the son of Solomon. ... 23 "Speak to Rehoboam the son of Solomon, king of Judah, and to all the house of Judah and Benjamin and to the rest of the people, saying,

[1Ch 12:16 NASB] 16 Then some of the sons of Benjamin and Judah came to the stronghold to David.

[2Ch 11:1, 12, 23 NASB] 1 Now when Rehoboam had come to Jerusalem, he assembled the house of Judah and Benjamin, 180,000 chosen men who were warriors, to fight against Israel to restore the kingdom to Rehoboam. ... 12 [He put] shields and spears in every city and strengthened them greatly. So he held Judah and Benjamin. ... 23 He acted wisely and distributed some of his sons through all the territories of Judah and Benjamin to all the fortified cities, and he gave them food in abundance. And he sought many wives [for them.]

[2Ch 14:8 NASB] 8 Now Asa had an army of 300,000 from Judah, bearing large shields and spears, and 280,000 from Benjamin, bearing shields and wielding bows; all of them were valiant warriors.

[2Ch 15:2, 8 NASB] 2 and he went out to meet Asa and said to him, "Listen to me, Asa, and all Judah and Benjamin: the LORD is with you when you are with Him. And if you seek Him, He will let you find Him; but if you forsake Him, He will forsake you. ... 8 Now when Asa heard these words and the prophecy which Azariah the son of Oded the prophet spoke, he took courage and removed the abominable idols from all the land of Judah and Benjamin and from the cities which he had captured in the hill country of Ephraim. He then restored the altar of the LORD which was in front of the porch of the LORD.

[Ezr 1:5 NASB] 5 Then the heads of fathers' [households] of Judah and Benjamin and the priests and the Levites arose, even everyone whose spirit God had stirred to go up and rebuild the house of the LORD which is in Jerusalem.

[Ezr 4:1 NASB] 1 Now when the enemies of Judah and Benjamin heard that the people of the exile were building a temple to the LORD God of Israel,

[Ezr 10:9 NASB] 9 So all the men of Judah and Benjamin assembled at Jerusalem within the three days. It was the ninth month on the twentieth of the month, and all the people sat in the open square [before] the house of God, trembling because of this matter and the heavy rain.

[Neh 11:4 NASB] 4 Some of the sons of Judah and some of the sons of Benjamin lived in Jerusalem. From the sons of Judah: Athaiah the son of Uzziah, the son of Zechariah, the son of Amariah, the son of Shephatiah, the son of Mahalalel, of the sons of Perez;

The so-called "lost" tribes have not always been lost. Jesus told His 12 disciples to go "to the lost sheep of the house of Israel" Matthew 10:6. To fulfill that mission, the location of the Israelite tribes had to be known The book of James is addressed to "the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad" James 1:1. James was writing to a known audience. Josephus, a Jew, records that in the 1st century ad, "the ten tribes are beyond the Euphrates till now, and are an immense multitude" (Antiquities of the Jews, 11:5:2). They were in Parthia,the area south of the Caspian Sea,where Israelites had gone into captivity centuries earlier.

Loaves and Fishes · Dec 27, 2020

disciple Clint said:
But it did happen, remember Ruth was a Moabite, there are other examples

Ruth was in fact an Israelite living in the land of Moab so called a Moabite. Her lineage would not have been allowed in the assembly of the LORD. Deuteronomy 23:3

Clare73 · Dec 27, 2020

Guojing said:
You mean God actually dwell with them in Jerusalem 400 years before the birth of Christ?

I thought those 400 years were years of complete silence from God?

God dwelt in the Most Holy Place in the Temple after the return from exile.

See Nehemiah 12:27-47, note v. 43 in relation to Zec 8:3-23.

The first group returned from exile in 538 BC, and the last group returned in 432 BC under Nehemiah.

And "complete silence" meaning no writings during that 400 years are part of the Hebrew or Protestant Canon (Word of God).

Guojing · Dec 27, 2020

Clare73 said:
In the Most Holy Place in the Temple in the return from exile.

See Nehemiah 12:27-47, note v. 43 in relation to Zec 8:3-23.

The first group returned from exile in 538 BC, and the last group returned in 432 BC under Nehemiah.

"Complete silence" meaning no writings during that time are part of the Hebrew or Protestant Canon (Word of God).

Yes, but you actually believed that Zechariah 8 took place during that time? Was God dwelling with them then? Which part of Nehemiah actually mentioned that?

And in those 400 years of silence, not only did God not talk to Israel at all, God also did nothing when Jerusalem was conquered by the Romans and General Pompey actually entered the Holy of Holies, defiling it.

So its definitely more than just no writings.

Guojing · Dec 27, 2020

Clare73 said:
The promises of the unconditional Abrahamic Covenant were spoken to Abraham and to his seed (singular), Christ (Gal 3:16).

The unconditional promises to them were two:

to Abraham:
1) seed as numerous as the stars in the sky (Ge 15:5)--fulfilled in Christ (Gal 3:16) and in all the OT and NT saints who who are in Christ, through faith in the Promise (Christ);

2) everlasting inheritance (land) (Ge 17:8)--fulfilled in heavenly land, country, city (Heb 11:13-16).
Abraham, Isaac and Jacob never possessed a foot of ground there (Ac 7:5) in Canaan.

to his Seed, Christ (Gal 3:16):
1) seed as numerous as stars in the sky (Ge15:5)--fulfilled in the OT and NT saints,
whom he ransomed (Isa 53:10) from violations of Mosaic law (Heb 9:15; Ro 3:25),
and from slavery to sin and death (Mk 10:45);

2) everlasting inheritance--fulfilled in OT and NT saints whom he bought back with his blood,
the Church (Heb 11:22-24), the one olive tree (Ro 11:27, 23), going back to Abraham (Gal 3:29), and
who are God's/Christ's inheritance
(Eph 1:18; Ex 34:9; Dt 9:26, 29, 32:9; Ps 33:12, 28:9, 74:2, 94:14, 106:5, 40; Zeph 3:17).

The Covenant promises to Abraham have all been fulfilled.

what about the current nation of Israel we see on the map?

atpollard · Dec 27, 2020

[Ezra 3:10-13 NASB]
10 Now when the builders had laid the foundation of the temple of the LORD, the priests stood in their apparel with trumpets, and the Levites, the sons of Asaph, with cymbals, to praise the LORD according to the directions of King David of Israel. 11 They sang, praising and giving thanks to the LORD, [saying,] "For He is good, for His lovingkindness is upon Israel forever." And all the people shouted with a great shout when they praised the LORD because the foundation of the house of the LORD was laid. 12 Yet many of the priests and Levites and heads of fathers' [households,] the old men who had seen the first temple, wept with a loud voice when the foundation of this house was laid before their eyes, while many shouted aloud for joy, 13 so that the people could not distinguish the sound of the shout of joy from the sound of the weeping of the people, for the people shouted with a loud shout, and the sound was heard far away.

Were they weeping because the new temple was not as beautiful as the old temple, or because the Ark of the Covenant and the Glory of the Lord never returned to the Holy of Holies?

The Ark and the Glory are not mentioned again in Scripture after the destruction of the temple and the exile.

Loaves and Fishes · Dec 27, 2020

Guojing said:
what about the current nation of Israel we see on the map?

Genesis 49:9-10

Loaves and Fishes · Dec 27, 2020

atpollard said:
[Ezra 3:10-13 NASB]
10 Now when the builders had laid the foundation of the temple of the LORD, the priests stood in their apparel with trumpets, and the Levites, the sons of Asaph, with cymbals, to praise the LORD according to the directions of King David of Israel. 11 They sang, praising and giving thanks to the LORD, [saying,] "For He is good, for His lovingkindness is upon Israel forever." And all the people shouted with a great shout when they praised the LORD because the foundation of the house of the LORD was laid. 12 Yet many of the priests and Levites and heads of fathers' [households,] the old men who had seen the first temple, wept with a loud voice when the foundation of this house was laid before their eyes, while many shouted aloud for joy, 13 so that the people could not distinguish the sound of the shout of joy from the sound of the weeping of the people, for the people shouted with a loud shout, and the sound was heard far away.

Were they weeping because the new temple was not as beautiful as the old temple, or because the Ark of the Covenant and the Glory of the Lord never returned to the Holy of Holies?

The Ark and the Glory are not mentioned again in Scripture after the destruction of the temple and the exile.

The ark is mentioned once more...Revelation 11:19..Then the temple of God was opened in heaven, and the ark of His covenant was seen in His temple. And there were lightnings, noises, thunderings, an earthquake, and great hail.

Guojing · Dec 27, 2020

Loaves and Fishes said:
Genesis 49:9-10

What are you trying to say with that scripture?

Loaves and Fishes · Dec 27, 2020

Guojing said:
What are you trying to say with that scripture?

You ask about the promises and about the country of Israel and the Jews I assumed?
This scripture is the prophecies of blessings to the 12 tribes.Verses 9-10 are for Judah, the Jews.

Guojing · Dec 27, 2020

Loaves and Fishes said:
You ask about the promises and about the country of Israel and the Jews I assumed?
This scripture is the prophecies of blessings to the 12 tribes.Verses 9-10 are for Judah, the Jews.

So the current nation of Israel on the map is....?

Answer me this question.

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