Why is torment the just punishment for sin?

aiki

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It's interesting to note that Scripture never says sinners will be tortured. It says only that they will be in torment. Such torment may come from within a person, from their own fallen psychology, and evil character (or lack thereof) and wicked imagination.

No one, I think, will be racking sinners, or pulling out their toenails, or boiling them in oil in Hell. Rather, it will be the total isolation, the utter absence of all good and pleasant things (that come ultimately from God) from whom the unrepentant sinner is forever separated, and the harsh environment of Hell that will be the source of the torment the sinner will endure.
 
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Mark Quayle

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There is no such thing as an event with no time. When there is no time there are no thoughts, no events, no discovery, no reaction to an event... The entire idea is not sustainable.
Don't know if it hasn't occurred to you or what, but taken to its logical extrapolation, you are saying that God is subject to a principle from outside himself: Time.

Not so.

But if it will help, try to eliminate some facts from the notion of "event", and just think of them as facts. Like the existence of God. Or his invention of time. Or his plan for the ages.
 
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zoidar

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There is no such thing as an event with no time. When there is no time there are no thoughts, no events, no discovery, no reaction to an event... The entire idea is not sustainable.

Luke 12:44-49 some get "many stripes" and others "few". that requires events... the passing of time.

There is no construct in scripture without it.

And the lake of fire is an event that takes place in time - after the 1000 years of Rev 20 and it takes place with Earth as its location according to Rev 20. And it over by the time you get to Rev 21:1-2

Your proposal that what starts in Rev 20 after the 1000 years as the lake of fire "never comes to an end" is a discussion about duration... which is also a concept specific to time.

Infinite torture for all is not the way Christ defines it - rather according to Christ Luke 12:44-49 some get "many stripes" and others "few"



It would be like saying that Christ is not the Messiah or not the Son of God - we only think it because the Bible speaks of it that way and "our mind is trapped within that mindset".


What I am showing is that the Bible details support this obvious logic regarding the basic definition of "event" and that you must have the passing of time to have "a before" and then "an after" and a response of the form "I learned something" or "I observed something and then responded with praise to God".

This is "the basics" of all reality.

Notice in Daniel 9 the angel ALSO shows that in heaven there is the elapse of time.

"In the first year of Darius the son of Ahasuerus, of Median descent, who was made king over the kingdom of the Chaldeans— 2 in the first year of his reign, I, Daniel, observed in the books the number of the years which was revealed as the word of the Lord to Jeremiah the prophet for the completion of the desolations of Jerusalem, namely, seventy years. 3 So I gave my attention to the Lord God, to seek Him by prayer and pleading, with fasting, sackcloth, and ashes. 4 I prayed to the Lord my God and confessed, and said, ...
20 While I was still speaking and praying, and confessing my sin and the sin of my people Israel, and presenting my plea before the Lord my God in behalf of the holy mountain of my God, 21 while I was still speaking in prayer, the man Gabriel, whom I had seen in the vision previously, came to me in my extreme weariness about the time of the evening offering. 22 And he instructed me and talked with me and said, “Daniel, I have come now to give you insight with understanding. 23 At the beginning of your pleas the command was issued, and I have come to tell you, because you are highly esteemed; so pay attention to the message and gain understanding of the vision."



We are not talking about "What is it like to be GOD during the time when the lake of fire is burning"... we are talking about what the created beings will be experiencing.

I never say what it is like "to be God" our focus is on the people that go to the lake of fire and the duration of that event, from the stand point of finite created beings that all experience the passing of time in true "non-god" fashion. And the bazillions of texts that enforce this concept.

You are pointing to texts that speak about how God relates to time - and that is "undefined by definition" so it is off limits since no one proposes that either angels or men turn into God at the lake of fire event.

But if that slave says in his heart, ‘My master will be a long time in coming,’ and begins to beat the slaves, both men and women, and to eat and drink and get drunk; the master of that slave will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he does not know, and will cut him in pieces, and assign him a place with the unbelievers.
— Luke 12:45-46

Cut into pieces doesn't sound like you will make it out alive. A believer that misuse what God has given him will have his share among unbelievers.
 
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martymonster

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But if that slave says in his heart, ‘My master will be a long time in coming,’ and begins to beat the slaves, both men and women, and to eat and drink and get drunk; the master of that slave will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he does not know, and will cut him in pieces, and assign him a place with the unbelievers.
— Luke 12:45-46

Cut into pieces doesn't sound like you will make it out alive. A believer that misuse what God has given him will have his share among unbelievers.

I don't know if it occurred to you, but "cut to pieces" isn't literal.

Rev 1:16 And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength.

Rev 2:16 Repent; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth.

Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

Heb 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Etc, etc, etc...
 
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BobRyan

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But if that slave says in his heart, ‘My master will be a long time in coming,’ and begins to beat the slaves, both men and women, and to eat and drink and get drunk; the master of that slave will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he does not know, and will cut him in pieces, and assign him a place with the unbelievers.
— Luke 12:45-46

Cut into pieces doesn't sound like you will make it out alive. A believer that misuse what God has given him will have his share among unbelievers.

True. It is not about "surviving" it -- it is about the amount of suffering debt owed. Some will be tormented more then others before they are "destroyed both body and soul" Matt 10:28
 
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BobRyan

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There is no such thing as an event with no time. When there is no time there are no thoughts, no events, no discovery, no reaction to an event... The entire idea is not sustainable.

Luke 12:44-49 some get "many stripes" and others "few". that requires events... the passing of time.

There is no construct in scripture without it.

And the lake of fire is an event that takes place in time - after the 1000 years of Rev 20 and it takes place with Earth as its location according to Rev 20. And it over by the time you get to Rev 21:1-2

Your proposal that what starts in Rev 20 after the 1000 years as the lake of fire "never comes to an end" is a discussion about duration... which is also a concept specific to time.

Infinite torture for all is not the way Christ defines it - rather according to Christ Luke 12:44-49 some get "many stripes" and others "few"



It would be like saying that Christ is not the Messiah or not the Son of God - we only think it because the Bible speaks of it that way and "our mind is trapped within that mindset".


What I am showing is that the Bible details support this obvious logic regarding the basic definition of "event" and that you must have the passing of time to have "a before" and then "an after" and a response of the form "I learned something" or "I observed something and then responded with praise to God".

This is "the basics" of all reality.

Notice in Daniel 9 the angel ALSO shows that in heaven there is the elapse of time.

"In the first year of Darius the son of Ahasuerus, of Median descent, who was made king over the kingdom of the Chaldeans— 2 in the first year of his reign, I, Daniel, observed in the books the number of the years which was revealed as the word of the Lord to Jeremiah the prophet for the completion of the desolations of Jerusalem, namely, seventy years. 3 So I gave my attention to the Lord God, to seek Him by prayer and pleading, with fasting, sackcloth, and ashes. 4 I prayed to the Lord my God and confessed, and said, ...
20 While I was still speaking and praying, and confessing my sin and the sin of my people Israel, and presenting my plea before the Lord my God in behalf of the holy mountain of my God, 21 while I was still speaking in prayer, the man Gabriel, whom I had seen in the vision previously, came to me in my extreme weariness about the time of the evening offering. 22 And he instructed me and talked with me and said, “Daniel, I have come now to give you insight with understanding. 23 At the beginning of your pleas the command was issued, and I have come to tell you, because you are highly esteemed; so pay attention to the message and gain understanding of the vision."



We are not talking about "What is it like to be GOD during the time when the lake of fire is burning"... we are talking about what the created beings will be experiencing.

I never say what it is like "to be God" our focus is on the people that go to the lake of fire and the duration of that event, from the stand point of finite created beings that all experience the passing of time in true "non-god" fashion. And the bazillions of texts that enforce this concept.

You are pointing to texts that speak about how God relates to time - and that is "undefined by definition" so it is off limits since no one proposes that either angels or men turn into God at the lake of fire event.


Don't know if it hasn't occurred to you or what, but taken to its logical extrapolation, you are saying that God is subject to a principle from outside himself: Time.

Not so.

As already noted in my post above -----------

We are not talking about "What is it like to be GOD during the time when the lake of fire is burning"... we are talking about what the created beings will be experiencing.

I never say what it is like "to be God" our focus is on the people that go to the lake of fire and the duration of that event, from the stand point of finite created beings that all experience the passing of time in true "non-god" fashion. And the bazillions of texts that enforce this concept.

You are pointing to texts that speak about how God relates to time - and that is "undefined" by definition of who/what God is -- so it is outside the scope of discussion -- since no one proposes that either angels or men turn into God at the lake of fire event.

---------- end
 
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Neogaia777

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It's interesting to note that Scripture never says sinners will be tortured. It says only that they will be in torment. Such torment may come from within a person, from their own fallen psychology, and evil character (or lack thereof) and wicked imagination.

No one, I think, will be racking sinners, or pulling out their toenails, or boiling them in oil in Hell. Rather, it will be the total isolation, the utter absence of all good and pleasant things (that come ultimately from God) from whom the unrepentant sinner is forever separated, and the harsh environment of Hell that will be the source of the torment the sinner will endure.
And are you going to be one of the ones not ever harmed or negatively affected by that...?

Just asking/saying...

God Bless!
 
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Mark Quayle

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As already noted in my post above -----------

We are not talking about "What is it like to be GOD during the time when the lake of fire is burning"... we are talking about what the created beings will be experiencing.

I never say what it is like "to be God" our focus is on the people that go to the lake of fire and the duration of that event, from the stand point of finite created beings that all experience the passing of time in true "non-god" fashion. And the bazillions of texts that enforce this concept.

You are pointing to texts that speak about how God relates to time - and that is "undefined" by definition of who/what God is -- so it is outside the scope of discussion -- since no one proposes that either angels or men turn into God at the lake of fire event.

---------- end
So, your notion of the application time is altogether valid, since you refuse to consider how God might see things? How God sees things is not at all outside the scope of discussion, (but you move the goalposts from saying, "There is no such thing as an event with no time.", to "it is outside the scope of discussion, how God sees things, since it is undefined through the meaning of the word, 'God'.).

If, as you say, the verses I quoted speak about how God relates to time, it is by no means irrelevant. It is more relevant than our notions, certainly, since God went to the trouble to tell us about how he relates to time....
 
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Neogaia777

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You guys are hilarious!

Can't see the forest for the trees, can't smell their own "stuff" on their knees, etc, etc, etc.

Cracks me up royally.

And then there's the hypocrisy...

And also the great lack of knowledge or not at all accurately knowing at all, etc...

Oh, and the great, great lack of any kind of "experience" with anything also, etc...

Oh, and the arrogance, etc...

Oh and also, then all the contradictions also, etc...

And also then the summary judgements of inferior beings who don't even have the capacity to make or conclude anything even remotely close to truly just, let alone very well-informed judgements or decisions, etc...

Absolutely hilarious!

Keep it up guys, make yourselves twice as much deserving for "you know where" than you already are now...

I'm very sorry that I'm just dying of laughter right now, but thanks for it though, I really needed it right now...

Merry Christmas!

God Bless!
 
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aiki

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And are you going to be one of the ones not ever harmed or negatively affected by that...?

Just asking/saying...

God Bless!

I'm not sure what you're asking. I'm not going to hell, if this is what you're getting at.
 
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aiki

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You're last post here does the very things that it condemns and ridicules. Funny, that. Ad hominem usually backfires in this way. People are quickest to condemn in others the things of which they are themselves most guilty. Anyway, ad hominem doesn't offer any reasoned argument defeating what others have put forward. It's just empty rhetoric, however amused you feel.


Merry Christmas!
 
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Mark Quayle

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You guys are hilarious!

Can't see the forest for the trees, can't smell their own "stuff" on their knees, etc, etc, etc.

Cracks me up royally.

And then there's the hypocrisy...

And also the great lack of knowledge or not at all accurately knowing at all, etc...

Oh, and the great, great lack of any kind of "experience" with anything also, etc...

Oh, and the arrogance, etc...

Oh and also, then all the contradictions also, etc...

And also then the summary judgements of inferior beings who don't even have the capacity to make or conclude anything even remotely close to truly just, let alone very well-informed judgements or decisions, etc...

Absolutely hilarious!

Keep it up guys, make yourselves twice as much deserving for "you know where" than you already are now...

I'm very sorry that I'm just dying of laughter right now, but thanks for it though, I really needed it right now...

Merry Christmas!

God Bless!
Now THERE'S a good solid argument! Your debate skills have me speechless!

Or, wait a minute! Did you just hurt my feelings? Because if you hurt my feelings, and *I* find out about it.......!
 
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bling

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Please don't use this thread to discuss (or prove) whether annihilation or eternal torment, or for that sake universialism is true.

Let's just say the wicked will be tormented. Why is torment the correct punishment for sin? I don't fully get that. Even in our society we lock in our criminals, we don't torment them. I know the Bible uses language as flames and brimstone, yet it's hard for me to understand why torment is the right punishment for sin. Is there any good, if possible biblical explanation for this? What good comes from the wicked being tormented?
Nothing good come to those who are being tormented, but good did come to me with unrepentant sinners going to a place I did not want to go to.
The only way I can obtain Godly type Love (which really makes me like God Himself) is through what Jesus taught: "...he that is forgiven much will Love much...". To understand I have been forgiven of an unbelievable huge debt created by sin, I need to realize the penalty for sin is huge. The only way people know how great their crime was, is by knowing the penalty for the offence.
Individuals who have continued to refuse God's charity to the point there is nothing more God can do to help them, they take on a lesser objective of helping those still able to chose to accept God's help/charity.
 
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Mark Quayle

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Nothing good come to those who are being tormented, but good did come to me with unrepentant sinners going to a place I did not want to go to.
The only way I can obtain Godly type Love (which really makes me like God Himself) is through what Jesus taught: "...he that is forgiven much will Love much...". To understand I have been forgiven of an unbelievable huge debt created by sin, I need to realize the penalty for sin is huge. The only way people know how great their crime was, is by knowing the penalty for the offence.
Individuals who have continued to refuse God's charity to the point there is nothing more God can do to help them, they take on a lesser objective of helping those still able to chose to accept God's help/charity.
I like this very much, right up until you say, "...there is nothing more God can do...". There is no such point. There is a point where there is nothing God will do to bring them to himself, but I don't think there is a soul on this earth that is a bad as he would be but for God's restraints, even if God has the restraints there for the sake of others and not for that soul's sake.

There is certainly no soul that God is unable to save. But he is the one to say who receives mercy and who does not. And nobody deserves mercy.
 
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Neogaia777

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Now THERE'S a good solid argument! Your debate skills have me speechless!

Or, wait a minute! Did you just hurt my feelings? Because if you hurt my feelings, and *I* find out about it.......!
Merry Christmas Man, lol.

It's never my true intent to hurt peoples feelings, but it does happen sometimes :(

But, May God Richly Bless and Bless You All Very Greatly this Holiday Season, and into the New Year!

And I do mean that.

God Bless!
 
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Please don't use this thread to discuss (or prove) whether annihilation or eternal torment, or for that sake universialism is true... ...What good comes from the wicked being tormented?

The punishment is the fire lake. And torment means that what is in the lake burns. The fire burns everything in the lake and it is called tormenting. I don’t think it means torturing. I think it is the same as if fire burns wooden log. The log doesn’t suffer, even though the flames torment it.

…Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. If anyone was not found written in the book of life, he was cast into the lake of fire.
Revelation 20:12-15
 
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Mark Quayle

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The punishment is the fire lake. And torment means that what is in the lake burns. The fire burns everything in the lake and it is called tormenting. I don’t think it means torturing. I think it is the same as if fire burns wooden log. The log doesn’t suffer, even though the flames torment it.

…Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. If anyone was not found written in the book of life, he was cast into the lake of fire.
Revelation 20:12-15
There will be weeping, and gnashing of teeth, no?
 
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BobRyan

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BobRyan said:
As already noted in my post above -----------

We are not talking about "What is it like to be GOD during the time when the lake of fire is burning"... we are talking about what the created beings will be experiencing.

I never say what it is like "to be God" our focus is on the people that go to the lake of fire and the duration of that event, from the stand point of finite created beings that all experience the passing of time in true "non-god" fashion. And the bazillions of texts that enforce this concept.

You are pointing to texts that speak about how God relates to time - and that is "undefined" by definition of who/what God is -- so it is outside the scope of discussion -- since no one proposes that either angels or men turn into God at the lake of fire event.

---------- end

So, your notion of the application time is altogether valid, since you refuse to consider how God might see things?

Indeed "being God" is not an option.

Matt 10:28 God destroys "BOTH body AND soul in fiery hell" - is not about God BEING destroyed it is about non-God being experiencing real physical fire and brimstone and destroyed in real body and real soul.

How God sees things is not at all outside the scope of discussion,

It is if you are not infinite God operating outside of time.

(but you move the goalposts from saying, "There is no such thing as an event with no time.",

That is a fact of existence for finite beings in the universe. (so that is everybody)

to "it is outside the scope of discussion, how God sees things, since it is undefined through the meaning of the word, 'God'.).

Indeed "Being God" and viewing finite begins suffering INSIDE the scope of time -- yet BEING an eternal being that views it from outside the limits of time - is not an option for those of us who are not God.

If, as you say, the verses I quoted speak about how God relates to time, it is by no means irrelevant.

You don't quote any verse that says "this is the way God sees the length of time that someone spends in the lake of fire".


It is more relevant than our notions, certainly, since God went to the trouble to tell us about how he relates to time....

God tells us what He sees as too little time or plenty of time "a day is as a 1000 years AND a 1000 years is as a day" to show us that no time is too short for God and no time is too long to wait. But that is not our experience... for us there is a huge difference between a day and a 1000 years.[/QUOTE]
 
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