condition for people to be saved in their last moments

mikeforjesus · Dec 27, 2020

Loaves and Fishes said:
The first and foremost reason is that God commanded baptism and gave the example to do it. One of Christ's final commands to His apostles was, "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations,baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age"Matthew 28:19-20.
Second, there is a process surrounding baptism,repentance and acknowledgment of Jesus Christ as Savior, followed by baptism, after which a true minister of Jesus Christ lays hands on the baptized individual for God to impart His Holy Spirit.We need baptism because we need God's forgiveness, "for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God" Romans 3:23.
When we repent of sin, we are deeply sorry for having transgressed God's law. We no longer have a hostile attitude toward God and His law of liberty. We no longer have a carnal attitude that is enmity against the law of God. Romans 8:7. After repentance, we want to be in harmony with God's law of love, the Ten Commandments.
God will only give His special spiritual blessings to those who are willing to repent, to believe and to obey Him. As Peter wrote: "For the time has come for judgment to begin at the house of God; and if it begins with us first, what will be the end of those who do not obey the gospel of God? Now 'If the righteous one is scarcely saved, where will the ungodly and the sinner appear?' 1 Peter 4:17-18.
Jesus Christ is our living Savior. We will be saved by His life. Romans 5:10.

I did not say baptism is not essential to be saved but those who are not who are also sanctified but just don’t have forgiveness of sins and communion with God for such sins to be forgiven through it will be saved in the world to come on the very last day of judgement they will be saved because they also obey God and follow all His words. Without baptism you are not saved upon death and you have to be punished for all your sins which is very severe so it is very foolish not to be baptized. They are responsible for their own death but I think if they confessed Christ and prayed to have help to obey all His words they will still on the last day be resurrected. Jesus knows the heart of those who choose not to be baptized if they still love Him and try to obey Him so it may be all believers could still be baptised but He knows if person is still commited and loves Him if he is not
Jesus says he who believes in Me I will raise him up at the last day. He promises it for all believers but He promises those who commune whether it is spiritual or also in an ordinance will be made alive and also be raised on the last day with all believers

do you also say you need communion to be saved ?

John 6:54-57
54 Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.
55 For My flesh is food indeed, and My blood is drink indeed. 56 He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him. 57 As the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, so he who feeds on Me will live because of Me.

I believe those who commune have eternal life in them now if they are communing with God also but when He says He will raise them at the last day He says in addition to having eternal life now He will raise them at the last day so they should be glad with all believers. Or I believe as Jesus said later He was talking about communing spiritually because of belief in Him as one sacrifice that is how one feeds on Him. But in the ordinance He chooses to be present also and maybe with more appreciation for Him to thank Him or maybe for more to realise His presence to unite one it could also be to bring to life now those who will not die but He would always be present.

John 6:40 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”

He wills for all believers to be saved that is because He is able to save all who come to Him but they have to be living in Him He wills them all to partake of Him to have that life which is why I believe communion is first of all a spiritual thing but ordinance may be the only time one can fully commune with God to make one fully united to God but I don't know if that is the case but those who obey His commandments by communing with Him spiritually still commune with Him but He may have wanted the ordinance to fully unite one to God not just to be able to keep the commandments but to have grace to be able to unite one to God now by special communion and grace when you take it but otherwise you can still commune with God to obey His commandments but He wanted to be present when people come together

FutureAndAHope · Dec 27, 2020

We only have to look to the dying moments of Jesus on the cross to see a person can be saved in their dying moments, one of the thieves was genuinely repentant at his point of death. Jesus told him you will be with me in heaven.

It really comes down to the heart. The bible says with the "heart one believes", the confession of the mouth follows, where one declares Jesus to be LORD.

Loaves and Fishes · Dec 27, 2020

The first resurrection if the "better' resurrection. This cannot happen unless we totally repent, are baptized and receive the Holy spirit. God will bring those into a place of safety during the tribulation. All others who are "lukewarm" will be persecuted during the tribulation. They will take part in the second resurrection and judge by their works.

mikeforjesus · Dec 27, 2020

I disagree that other believers don’t have the Holy Spirit at all I do not agree they will be raised in the second resurrection to be judged eternally because if they follow Jesus and overcome they are just temporarily put in punishment to be punished for all their sins but afterwards they are to be restored they can’t pay for all their sins but they will still be temporarily punished for all of them and then given a chance to be united to God they may be there for a long time as a waiting place after they are punished for all their sins or maybe such length of time can be endured in a short time from our perspective but long with God in that place and be restored to heaven some time later but they will be raised on the last day

Loaves and Fishes · Dec 27, 2020

There is no eternal punishment. If you accept God and His Laws at the second resurrection you will be judged according to their works. Revelation 20:12. Scripture says that the first resurrection is the better because those will become spirit beings and reign with Christ a 1000 years as kings and Priests on earth.Revelation 20:4

mlepfitjw · Dec 27, 2020

You are welcome, Mike for Jesus, hope it helped.

mikeforjesus · Dec 27, 2020

Loaves and Fishes said:
There is no eternal punishment. If you accept God and His Laws at the second resurrection you will be judged according to their works. Revelation 20:12. Scripture says that the first resurrection is the better because those will become spirit beings and reign with Christ a 1000 years as kings and Priests on earth.Revelation 20:4

Do you mean not for the righteous believers who are not baptized ? I think the scriptures teach there is an eternal punishment even if one can misinterpret scripture because he wants to and not understand scripture in its proper context because the devil wants to deceive and cause many to perish to hinder one effectiveness for I think it may be required to believe it and preach it to stop preaching wrong if one is made aware his beliefs may be wrong but I don’t know the bible is clear that the punishment of the wicked is everlasting fire which is never quenched and John says he who believes not the Son shall not see life but the wrath of God abides on him that is it never leaves
God so loved the world that whoever believes should not perish but have everlasting life.

Loaves and Fishes · Dec 27, 2020

The immortal soul is not scriptural.One cannot be eternally punished if there is no immortal soul. Genesis 2:17,Ecclesiastes 9:5-6,Ezekiel 18:4,Ezekiel 18:20,Psalms 6:5,Ecclesiastes 12:7.
The punishment is everlasting meaning that when one dies the second death it is forever.Revelation 21:8. Righteousness can only be established by God. Romans 10:2-3

Rachel20 · Dec 27, 2020

mikeforjesus said:
if everyone can be saved in their last moments then what is the harm of delaying repentance?

Because no one knows when their last moments will be. Thus the saying "get saved some day before you die" really means don't delay.

mikeforjesus · Dec 27, 2020

The soul has eternal existence. When the bible says the dead know not anything I believe that just means they will not be the same people anymore with feelings to possibly change for good. Because they will not have opportunity to change their feelings

as Daniel says those who sleep in the dust will rise some to everlasting life and others to everlasting shame and contempt

Mark 9:43-44
43 If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter into life maimed, rather than having two hands, to go to hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched— 44 where
Their worm does not die
And the fire is not quenched

Clearly the fire is not quenched not only that they can not quench it

The bible says about Judas that it would have been good for him that he had never been born

the bible says those who worship the beast and it’s image shall have no rest day and night and tormented forever and ever

Teaching against the continued existence of the soul when it is possible that people shall remain in hell forever is dangerous and wrong

when John 3:16 says God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten son that whosoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life
Perish means to be separated from God and to die in one sins for God willed for them to be saved but as Matthew 25 says those who don’t repent will go to the same everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels though people will be punished according to their deeds

mikeforjesus · Dec 28, 2020

Even if I thought it is important to be baptized I wonder what excuse one could have not to join a church catholic or orthodox

How do we know Jesus did not found a church that is founded on the apostles and their successors ?

I would not follow the below though because Jesus wouldn’t want to allow things to be confusing but blesses those with faith because I am convinced the scripture also does not support that only those can be true ministers who are under a line of apostolic succession and that they are rulers of the faith to determine if one is following God or not to tell you if you are not following God or not and Jesus wouldn’t allow politics to potentially control others from knowing the truth with no one being able to stand against it. Since you can’t know the truth it seems only His word is true
Some may think it is not fair for those who allowed the church doctrines to stumble them if it is not fair but if anyone truly believed in the church he would have responsibility to join it but if you can clearly see it does not seem fair a person has responsibility to seek the truth and hope in God or join the church. It is true the truth does not change but I believe God truth is more just to include other believers

Jesus did teach baptism and potentially communion so we should do both because we do not know it is not essential but it could be baptism is not required I want to be convinced so but I have to be safe because why don’t people have to be baptized if baptism has advantages why don’t you have to be baptized

Do you think just because baptism takes away sins all the unbaptized are not pure and can not be saved because jesus said only the pure in heart shall see God that unbaptized people can not be saved if they are not hostile to Jesus and are truly seeking to be saved. A true follower of jesus that thinks baptism is essential would seek to be baptized it seems or I would doubt they are seriously seeking to be saved and not hostile to Jesus but we don't know. It all comes down to if one is genuinely seeking to be saved and repentant I don't think you can blame one who gives them the benefit of the doubt because it is still one decision if he is not really seeking to be saved and to please God. If one decides not to get baptised but he is and it is not essential he would not be losing.

I think I can answer that that it need not be considered essential just because it could have the purpose not to make you repent and to have a pure heart which I believe all who received the holy spirit have the ability to live holy lives without needing to sin if they obey God but when they sin God wanted to take away their sins through baptism to allow them to commune with God to take away those sins to be united to God now. One is considered pure if he lives a pure life without practicing sin even if he still is not washed because that just means he needs to be healed not that he makes the choice and that he does not have a new nature and heart that loves good though God wanted people to get baptized maybe so people know unity with God completely now is a gift of God.

I thought

I guess since we can’t know we should just obey the Lord and assume baptism and maybe even communion is necessary since we can’t know if it is not required because we are required to follow what we think could be required it is up to God if He accepts others but since we don’t know what is the true church I think we should just follow the bible not to cause divisions and seek to lead for it seems improper to have to support a denomination when you don’t know it is scriptural and which is true to mislead others. Because Paul said he who plants is not anything as in the cause of one salvation but it is God who causes the growth they are just ministers through whom is believed because they accurately teach what Jesus taught.

mikeforjesus · Dec 28, 2020

I watched a video salvation is not of works lest any should boast because it is obtained as a gift but those who truly received it would naturally work as evidence of it and my dad explained that to me also

Jesus said the way to life is difficult and few find it and this is the work of God to believe on Him whom He sent
That is to believe all He said about how to be saved when if you found salvation you would have a new heart to desire to work and you will know what you need to do

the reason few find it is because they are not looking Jesus said everyone who seeks can find it and this is promised to be found by asking jesus Himself for He said everyone who asks receives he who seeks finds and whoever knocks the door will be opened and He promised He is the way the truth and the life He is the door that you go to to find out the truth not another He said if you abide in My word you are My disciples indeed and you shall know the truth and the truth will set you free. So all the way of truth is contained in the scripture. He is the way the truth and the life so He is talking about those who don’t yet believe and there is no evidence of salvation in them that they are following His ways as Jesus is supposed to change one who has relation with Him for him to seek to obey Him. Some still think they have to earn salvation but it could really just to have evidence of salvation that Jesus changes the person

Loaves and Fishes · Dec 28, 2020

mikeforjesus said:
The soul is immortal. When the bible says the dead know not anything I believe that just means they will not be the same people anymore with feelings to possibly change for good. Because they will not have opportunity to change their feelings

as Daniel says those who sleep in the dust will rise some to everlasting life and others to everlasting shame and contempt

Mark 9:43-44
43 If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter into life maimed, rather than having two hands, to go to hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched— 44 where
Their worm does not die
And the fire is not quenched

Clearly the fire is not quenched not only that they can not quench it

The bible says about Judas that it would have been good for him that he had never been born

the bible says those who worship the beast and it’s image shall have no rest day and night and tormented forever and ever

Teaching against the immortality of the soul when it is possible that people shall remain in it forever is dangerous and wrong

when John 3:16 says God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten son that whosoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life
Perish means to be separated from God and to die in one sins for God willed for them to be saved but as Matthew 25 says those who don’t repent will go to the same everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels though people will be punished according to their deeds

The fire is forever and not quenched not the torment. Perish means to perish
to destroy ,to put out of the way entirely, abolish, put an end to ruin.
God says to "lean not on your own understanding." The Bible interprets itself. I have given you many scriptures that back up that the immortal soul is unscriptural.

Here is Genesis again and pick one of these which is correct and tell me who from these scriptures do you believe?

Genesis 2:16-17 And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, “Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat; 17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.”

Genesis 3:4 Then the serpent said to the woman, “You will not surely die.

mikeforjesus · Dec 29, 2020

If everyone has perished why is there still a fire? I have showed you clearly that the bible says people will be raised some to everlasting life and others to everlasting shame and contempt and that the bible says it would have been good for Judas to never been born and that those who worship the beast shall be tormented shall have no rest day and night and tormented forever and ever

jesus says the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness but makes one subject to eternal condemnation

For Jesus said you shall not get out until you pay the last penny if a man could pay the last penny Jesus did not have to come to forgive sin that is why St. John below says not to believe every spirit except those who confess Jesus has come in the flesh because they recognise He needed to come to save souls
Maybe that means Jesus to accept them in that regard but it may mean to accept them. I think we should assume one needs to be baptized and it is up to God if he saves others
Maybe if they confess He came and believe but don’t believe He will send those to hell because they don't understand He will or has to but that they understand He is necessary to save them or trust and believe in Him to save them as they believe He is necessary even if they have not thought about it if so maybe they can be saved but I don’t know it may be required to teach true teaching

1 John 4:1-3
1 Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world. 2 By this you know the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of God, 3 and every spirit that does not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not of God. And this is the spirit of the Antichrist, which you have heard was coming, and is now already in the world

And Matthew 25 says they shall go to everlasting punishment one can not conclude that punishment ends but lasts

Loaves and Fishes · Dec 29, 2020

Do you think that a merciful God would condemn His children the eternal torment?
Romans 6:23 clearly says that the Penalty for sin is death.

The fire is everlasting and the death is permanent or forever .The fire is reserved for Satan and his angels. Matthew 25:41..."Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels."
Job even asked why was he born.Job 3:11. One needs to have God's Holy spirit in order to sin against it and I have shown the scriptures that tell us how to obtain it.

The doctrine of the immortal soul is unscriptural and has been used by churches over the years to scare and control people.I have given many scriptures that say this. Here is one more...Acts 2:29."Fellow Israelites, I can tell you confidently that the patriarch David died and was buried, and his tomb is here to this day.
David is not in heaven or anywhere else but the grave awaiting the resurrection.

mikeforjesus · Dec 29, 2020

I have just shown you it is the reality I do believe we all deserve hell when we disobey Him if it is willingly or knowingly that we are not sorry for if we don’t repent we don’t deserve mercy and refusing to find out what you must know is a willful sin by not teaching it you are not helping more be saved im not sure one who refuses to accept the truth can be saved
Speaking for God is called adding to the word of God not being willing to change may harm oneself and one hearers. The bible says refuse one who teaches a false teaching after the first and second admonition that is I am not to accept to allow false teaching to be tolerated to allow it without a defense
I should try to prove it more that is why the bible says contend for the faith
Jesus says there is degrees of punishment no one would fear to be evil if there wasn’t. He said for those who try to hinder others from being saved they have greater condemnation. And those who had greater chances to be saved unlike others have greater condemnation like capernaum unlike sodom but all had a fair chance and everyone is given the chance they deserve. A preacher does not give others a better chance he just makes known to them what is offered to them. Sodom was never preached to by miracles but it still ought to have repented as they were preached to by Lot and maybe others before that died did so they knew before they knew before it was corrupt

BNR32FAN · Dec 29, 2020

mikeforjesus said:
if everyone can be saved in their last moments then what is the harm of delaying repentance?

I think there is no promise for sinners that they will live long and that the time they have remaining is easy to find oil though possible if they strive really hard. If God is patient it is because there are many righteous people praying but in the bible it says even if Job or Noah or Daniel were to pray He would not be patient to a people or person if He sees there is no hope
maybe if they are very wicked already having had many chances we do not know how many chances we had. I don't mean to say so to cause despair because it could be God is patient because we did not have many chances but I don't know if that is the case

The below may not be true because it it is best to assume it is very difficult to be saved at the end than from the beginning

if a person has no good works but then later puts his faith in Christ alone to save him now in this moment he can be saved because the work of God is to believe on Him whom He sent the oil of the wise virgins is to get the faith to put your trust in Christ for salvation to forgive all your previous sins but faith without works is dead so you need to confess to others you have put your trust in Christ and does what good you can do with remaining time as you read bible God will prepare good works for you to follow as you look for opportunities to follow the gospel

And about previous offenses you can confess all your sins to God and ask for opportunity to do good

No one knows when he will die and if he will find opportunity to repent

Personally I would remove works from the list and replace it with love. Some say that faith produces works but I disagree. James 2 makes it clear that faith does not always produce works and without works faith is useless. I believe faith + love = works. I also believe that in some cases the works might not even come into play like in the case of the thief on the cross. I think it’s likely that he had faith and love and that’s why he was accepted by Christ. The Pharisees had tons of faith and works but no love which is why they were constantly rebuked by Jesus. I often see in discussions between faith alone and faith with works that the mention of love is completely absent even tho love is something that Jesus emphasized on over and over throughout His ministry.

BNR32FAN · Dec 29, 2020

Goodhuman said:
I have read for man who did sin and then start repenting and because of this become monk and all his life go out from monastery to the woods and cry and after many years God forgive his sins, because he heard his voice, saying this. I have read for another monk who had life like angels without sins, but had one sin that must be punished and outside of the monastery wild animals killed him. So don't be so fast with sinning, repenting is hard, also God forgive but not leave without punishment. Also after repenting you must not do the same sin.

No, once our sin is forgiven there is no punishment for that person. The punishment was taken by Christ. God specifically said that once our sins are forgiven He will no longer remember them.

mikeforjesus · Dec 29, 2020

BNR32FAN said:
Personally I would remove works from the list and replace it with love. Some say that faith produces works but I disagree. James 2 makes it clear that faith does not always produce works and without works faith is useless. I believe faith + love = works. I also believe that in some cases the works might not even come into play like in the case of the thief on the cross. I think it’s likely that he had faith and love and that’s why he was accepted by Christ. The Pharisees had tons of faith and works but no love which is why they were constantly rebuked by Jesus. I often see in discussions between faith alone and faith with works that the mention of love is completely absent even tho love is something that Jesus emphasized on over and over throughout His ministry.

I see what you mean but Jesus said if you love me keep my commandments because by doing so you show love to God and others so such commandments are important. If one given a chance to repent and show love to God and others and do God will and continually chooses not to he may die without having gained a new heart that has repented that is shown by works God grants him to do because he has not seeked it because he does not know when he will die or if he will find God then if he does not seek God diligently before he dies

BNR32FAN · Dec 29, 2020

mikeforjesus said:
I think you are right Shane I just realised it is not of him who runs but God who shows mercy. That doesn't mean you don't have to strive but all good works should come from God grace which is our job to always pray for wisdom to only be led by the Spirit and not from ourselves

Do you realize that quote from Romans 9 was pertaining to the Jews & Gentiles not to individuals? That’s why Paul said that the Jews who had been seeking righteousness had not arrived at it because they were seeking it by works but the Gentiles who were not seeking it had arrived at righteousness because they perused it by faith. Hence not according to he who runs but according to God who shows mercy. What Paul is saying here is that the Gentiles would’ve never had any chance for salvation if it were by works, salvation is the result of God’s calling but even that’s not guaranteed because we still have to cooperate with His calling.

“What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, even the righteousness which is by faith; but Israel, pursuing a law of righteousness, did not arrive at that law. Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as though it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone, just as it is written, “BEHOLD, I LAY IN ZION A STONE OF STUMBLING AND A ROCK OF OFFENSE, AND HE WHO BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED.””
‭‭Romans‬ ‭9:30-33‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Paul is not saying that God chooses some to be saved and doesn’t allow others to repent and be saved.

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