When is the beast destroyed and thrown into the fire ?

ewq1938 · Dec 26, 2020

Spiritual Jew said:
You'd also have to show how passages like Matthew 24:35-39, 1 Thess 5:1-6 and 2 Peter 3:3-13 allow for any mortal survivors of His return. Can you do that?

Mat 24:37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Mat 24:38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
Mat 24:39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Luk 17:26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.
Luk 17:27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.
Luk 17:28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;
Luk 17:29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
Luk 17:30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

Matthew 24:35-39 has at least 8 mortal survivors of the flood. Some believe the flood was not global so that would result in a lot more mortal survivors. Keep in mind the gospel of Luke includes the story of Lot as a sister story to the flood and that was not a global slaughter so that is another example of people not being killed globally.

1Th 5:1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
1Th 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
1Th 5:3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
1Th 5:4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
1Th 5:5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
1Th 5:6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.

1 Thess 5:1-6 speaks of "sudden destruction" but does not say all mortal humans are killed globally. Revelation 2 and 19 assure us that there will be nations ruled over by a rod of iron after the slayings of the second coming.

2Pe 3:3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,
2Pe 3:4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.
2Pe 3:5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
2Pe 3:6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
2Pe 3:7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
2Pe 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
2Pe 3:11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
2Pe 3:12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
2Pe 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

2 Peter 3:3-13 speaks of "the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men" which happens at the GWTJ not at the second coming.

In no second coming passage is there a global slaughter of mortal people. Again, Revelation 2 and 19 are clear that there is smiting and killings written with present tense verbs but both speak of a rule over the nations using a future tense verb which proves after the slaying and killing of the second coming, there is a peaceful rule over mortals not targeted for death at the second coming:

Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite(AORIST tense verb with PRESENT tense meaning) the nations: and he shall rule(FUTURE tense verb) them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth(PRESENT tense verb) the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

Here rule/poimaino is in the FUTURE tense meaning it will happen at some point AFTER the second coming and battle of Armageddon while treadeth/pateo is written in the PRESENT tense meaning it is happening during this second coming and slaying. This proves the Premill position because indeed there is a future rule of people who were not slain during the second coming that Christ and his saints will rule over.

A second witness to this:

Rev 2:25 But that which ye have already hold fast till I come.

That is the second coming. Everything we read of next comes after the second coming:

Rev 2:26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:

After "the end" comes, there is given power over the nations to those that are overcomers which naturally includes those who "are alive and remain" at the second coming. They will be given power over the nations after Christ has returned not before it.

Rev 2:27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.

After the second coming and after "the end" will the overcomers be given power over the nations, ruling them with a rod of iron. That proves the rod of iron rule over the nations for a thousand years does not even start until Christ has returned and has given overcomers this power to rule over the nations.

ewq1938 · Dec 26, 2020

Verb tenses are very important and should never be ignored. If I said, "I'm at the store buying (present tense verb) the ingredients for Spaghetti so I can cook (future tense verb) Spaghetti for you." No one should think I was cooking Spaghetti in the store. Clearly the buying is at a different time than the cooking. It's the same with the events of Revelation 19. There are verbs there in the present tense regarding smiting and treading which are violent actions and they take place during that battle. There is another event mentioned there about ruling over people but it is written in the future tense proving it happens AFTER the violent events. The ruling is not happening during the violent events of the second coming and the battle of Armageddon. Furthermore the Greek word for "rule" means to take care as a Shepherd would so the rule is peaceful which makes sense. There is a battle and a lot of killing, then non-military/civilian survivors are cared for in a Shepherding sense. That happened in wars the United States were in where after WW2 was over, we actually helped Germany and Japan rebuild.

Zao is life · Dec 26, 2020

jeffweedaman said:
Do we all agree that this happens at the Lords second coming?

If so , what happens to those who have followed him at this time?

Scripture in Rev states....,

All who dwell on the earth will worship him, everyone whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who has been slain.

And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

“The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to come up out of the abyss and go to destruction. And those who dwell on the earth, whose name has not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, will wonder when they see the beast, that he was and is not and will come.

Rev 14
9 Then another angel, a third one, followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.
11 And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”

Those not in the book of life from the foundation of the world , will follow the beast, and those who follow the beast are thrown into the fire....at his coming.

So who could possibily populate a future millennial reign when Jesus comes again a second time to destroy the beast?

All whose names are not in the book of life from the foundation of the world right up until his coming will have their part in the LOF that was prepared for the devil and his beast angels.

How can one possibly introduce a third group , (who never had their names written in the book of life from the foundation of the world , and avoided the mark of the beast ) , that survives to populate a future period of time after the Lord comes again??

No one has answered the questions yet.

jeffweedaman said:
1. All who dwell on the earth will worship him, everyone whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who has been slain.

The Revelation frequently makes a distinction between the earth and the sea:

"Therefore rejoice, O heavens, and those tabernacling in them. Woe to the inhabitants of the earth and in the sea! For the Devil came down to you, having great wrath, knowing that he has but a little time." Revelation 12:12

"And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God. And he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea," Revelation 7:2

"and I saw a beast coming up out of the sea" Revelation 13:1

"And I saw another beast coming up out of the earth." Revelation 13:11

"And it (the beast coming up out of the earth) deceives those dwelling on the earth, because of the miracles which were given to it to do before the beast, saying to those dwelling on the earth that they should make an image to the beast who had the wound by a sword and lived.
And there was given to it to give a spirit to the image of the beast, so that the image of the beast might both speak, and might cause as many as would not worship the image of the beast to be killed." Revelation 13:14-15

"And all dwelling on the earth will worship it, those whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain, from the foundation of the world." (Revelation 13:8)

I'm not totally satisfied with the assumption that "all who dwell on the earth" in the Revelation is a reference to all those who dwell in the world. What if... (I'm speculating) "the sea" = "the nations" and "the earth" = those dwelling in the land where the image is erected, and what if the image is a temple?

jeffweedaman said:
2. So who could possibily populate a future millennial reign when Jesus comes again a second time to destroy the beast?

The answer could be all those who do not worship the image of the beast because they were not dwelling in the kingdom of the beast that ascended from out of the earth, and were therefore not required to.

Whatever the case may be, I'm not totally satisfied with the assumption that "all who dwell on the earth" in the Revelation is a reference to all those who dwell in the world.

ewq1938 · Dec 26, 2020

Spiritual Jew said:
The seals, trumpets and vials are parallel to each other. The trumpets don't follow the seventh seal.

Yes they do in fact no trumpet is even given to an angel until after the 7th seal was opened:

Rev 8:1 And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour.
Rev 8:2 And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets.

These two verses are in chronological order.

How could that be when the wrath of the Lamb is already at hand after the opening of the sixth seal?

You answered it yourself: The book of Revelation is not all chronological.

None of the seals are action happening when a seal is opened. All the seals do is show things that are going to happen during the trumps. Jesus doesn't return to Earth after opening the 6th seal. He is still in heaven opening the 7th seal. It is the trumps that sound for actions to take place. That's the historic use of trumpets in battle. The seals are more like pre-war battle plans while the trumps actually cause things to happen.

Spiritual Jew · Dec 26, 2020

ewq1938 said:
Mat 24:37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Mat 24:38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
Mat 24:39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Luk 17:26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.
Luk 17:27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.
Luk 17:28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;
Luk 17:29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
Luk 17:30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

Matthew 24:35-39 has at least 8 mortal survivors of the flood. Some believe the flood was not global so that would result in a lot more mortal survivors.

And those people would be wrong. Are you among those who believe that lie?

Keep in mind the gospel of Luke includes the story of Lot as a sister story to the flood and that was not a global slaughter so that is another example of people not being killed globally.

What do you mean "another example"? So, you don't believe the flood was global even though scripture makes it very clear that it was? Christ's second coming is clearly a global event. Peter makes that abundantly clear in 2 Peter 3:3-13 where he describes the destruction that will occur at Christ's second coming to what happened in the flood (just like Jesus did) and he describes the burning up of the heavens and the earth. But, it's also clear from this passage:

Luke 21:25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; 26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken. 27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

Please explain how the above is not speaking of things coming upon the entire earth.

Also, in passages like 1 Thess 4:13-17 and 1 Corinthians 15:50-54, it's clear that literally all of the dead in Christ and all who are alive and remain on the earth when Christ comes will be caught up to Him. To deny that His coming is a global event contradicts all of these passages that I've mentioned.

1Th 5:1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
1Th 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
1Th 5:3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
1Th 5:4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
1Th 5:5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
1Th 5:6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.

1 Thess 5:1-6 speaks of "sudden destruction" but does not say all mortal humans are killed globally.

Paul is speaking of the same event that Peter talks about in 2 Peter 3:3-13. Why else would Paul say that "they shall not escape" except for the fact that the entire earth will be burned up as Peter indicates in 2 Peter 3:7,10-12?

Revelation 2 and 19 assure us that there will be nations ruled over by a rod of iron after the slayings of the second coming.

No, they do not. You seem to ignore the fact that Revelation 19:15 says that He will smite those nations and tread them in the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. How can they survive that? Look at the description of Him treading the winepress of the wrath of God here:

Revelation 14:19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God. 20 And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.

How is this a description of anything but complete destruction? It makes no sense to think that anyone would survive this to be ruled over.

2Pe 3:3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,
2Pe 3:4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.
2Pe 3:5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
2Pe 3:6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
2Pe 3:7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
2Pe 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
2Pe 3:11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
2Pe 3:12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
2Pe 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

2 Peter 3:3-13 speaks of "the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men" which happens at the GWTJ not at the second coming.

It's quite interesting that out of all Peter said there, that's all you have to say about it? No mention of the burning up of the heavens and the earth which occur at His coming? Did you somehow miss that part?

Anyway, the judgment does occur at the second coming and it's described in Matthew 25:31-46. How can the following not be a description of "the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men"?

Matthew 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: 32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: 33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:...41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:...46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

How can the above be any different than this:

Revelation 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

In no second coming passage is there a global slaughter of mortal people.

How can you say that about 2 Peter 3:3-13 when Peter talks about scoffers scoffing at the promise of His coming and then describing the heavens and the earth being burned up? The earth will be burned up because that will be the Lord's wrath against those scoffers and all "who do not know God, and that obey not the gospel of Jesus Christ" (2 Thess 1:7-8). That will be the "sudden destruction" from which "they shall not escape" that Paul wrote about in 1 Thessalonians 5:2-3.

Again, Revelation 2 and 19 are clear that there is smiting and killings written with present tense verbs but both speak of a rule over the nations using a future tense verb which proves after the slaying and killing of the second coming, there is a peaceful rule over mortals not targeted for death at the second coming:

Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite(AORIST tense verb with PRESENT tense meaning) the nations: and he shall rule(FUTURE tense verb) them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth(PRESENT tense verb) the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

Here rule/poimaino is in the FUTURE tense meaning it will happen at some point AFTER the second coming and battle of Armageddon while treadeth/pateo is written in the PRESENT tense meaning it is happening during this second coming and slaying. This proves the Premill position because indeed there is a future rule of people who were not slain during the second coming that Christ and his saints will rule over.

A second witness to this:

Rev 2:25 But that which ye have already hold fast till I come.

That is the second coming. Everything we read of next comes after the second coming:

Rev 2:26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:

After "the end" comes, there is given power over the nations to those that are overcomers which naturally includes those who "are alive and remain" at the second coming. They will be given power over the nations after Christ has returned not before it.

Rev 2:27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.

After the second coming and after "the end" will the overcomers be given power over the nations, ruling them with a rod of iron. That proves the rod of iron rule over the nations for a thousand years does not even start until Christ has returned and has given overcomers this power to rule over the nations.

You're not recognizing that the way He will rule over them is by breaking/destroying them. Give me even one reason why Jesus should not destroy all of His enemies when He returns. What basis is there for Him to spare any of their lives and rule over them instead of destroying them?

ewq1938 · Dec 26, 2020

Spiritual Jew said:
What do you mean "another example"? So, you don't believe the flood was global even though scripture makes it very clear that it was?

It wasn't global but this isn't the right thread to debate that. Both the flood and Lot's story are compared to the second coming and there is no doubt there was no global killing in the story of Lot.

To deny that His coming is a global event contradicts all of these passages that I've mentioned.

But the killing of human beings is not global. You are avoiding the verb tenses in Revelation 19. The nations will be future tense ruled after the events of the second coming. That cannot be denied nor will those verb tenses disappear.

You seem to ignore the fact that Revelation 19:15 says that He will smite those nations and tread them in the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. How can they survive that?

That doesn't kill everyone. The rule is future tense to that winepress so it is undeniable that people are alive to be ruled over.

It makes no sense to think that anyone would survive this to be ruled over.

Christ said there would be a future tense rule of the nations. It makes no sense to deny his words.

Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule(FUTURE tense verb) them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth(PRESENT tense verb) the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

Here rule/poimaino is in the FUTURE tense(verb tense: future indicative active.) meaning it will happen at some point AFTER the second coming and battle of Armageddon while treadeth/pateo is written in the PRESENT tense meaning it is happening during this second coming and slaying. This proves the Premill position because indeed there is a future rule of people who were not slain during the second coming that Christ and his saints will rule over.

What's your response to that?

You're not recognizing that the way He will rule over them is by breaking/destroying them.

You have that incorrect. The ruling comes AFTER the breaking/destroying. That is when he breaks up their governments and leadership and destroy their army. With no army and no beast kingdom and no AC the nations are helpless and unable fight back which is perfect for a strict rod of iron rule over them promised by Christ to happen in the future tense after the breaking/destroying.

You are also wrong that to rule is violent. It's not.

G4165
poimaino
poy-mah'ee-no
From G4166; to tend as a shepherd (or figuratively superviser): - feed (cattle), rule.

To tend is to take care of! A supervisor watches over his employees, not kill them! A shepherd controls and protects his flock and that is the type of rule that shall be not the judgment and destruction of the wicked. They are protected from the deceptions of satan for the entire thousand years. It is clear error to mix the concept of shepherding with judging and punishing and killing. In addition, they will have no way to group and form together to rebel during this time which is expressed by the vessels being broken up. The pieces are individuals and the vessels represented the previous way they had been grouped together in evil armies and kingdoms and governments etc. in opposition to Christ.

Spiritual Jew · Dec 26, 2020

ewq1938 said:
Yes they do in fact no trumpet is even given to an angel until after the 7th seal was opened:

Rev 8:1 And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour.
Rev 8:2 And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets.

These two verses are in chronological order.

He sees a new vision in Revelation 8:2. That doesn't mean what he saw has to chronologically follow what he saw before that. That would be like saying that what he saw in Revelation 12 has to follow what he saw in Revelation 11 chronologically which would place His birth after the seventh trumpet.

You answered it yourself: The book of Revelation is not all chronological.

Okay, so with that in mind, why do you insist that all of the trumpets have to follow the seventh seal?

None of the seals are action happening when a seal is opened. All the seals do is show things that are going to happen during the trumps. Jesus doesn't return to Earth after opening the 6th seal. He is still in heaven opening the 7th seal. It is the trumps that sound for actions to take place. That's the historic use of trumpets in battle. The seals are more like pre-war battle plans while the trumps actually cause things to happen.

I'm saying that He and His angels descend from heaven after He opens the seventh seal and that is why there is silence in heaven at that point.

Look, here's the bottom line. You keep saying He's going to rule over people on the earth without being able to explain who they would be and why He would rule over them and why they would be allowed to survive His coming.

So, can you explain which of His mortal enemies would be allowed to survive His return and why they would be allowed to survive and not the rest?

ewq1938 · Dec 26, 2020

Spiritual Jew said:
Okay, so with that in mind, why do you insist that all of the trumpets have to follow the seventh seal?

Because it is written they do. Chronology didn't change between verse 1 and 2. All the seals are opened before the trumpets sound. All the trumpets sound before any vials are poured. Certain parts of Revelation are in chronological order, some parts are not.

Spiritual Jew · Dec 26, 2020

ewq1938 said:
Because it is written they do. Chronology didn't change between verse 1 and 2. All the seals are opened before the trumpets sound. All the trumpets sound before any vials are poured. Certain parts of Revelation are in chronological order, some parts are not.

There is nothing that specifically says all of the seals are opened first before any of the trumpets sound. Can you acknowledge that? That is your assumption. How can the wrath of the Lamb be at hand after the opening of the sixth seal if none of the trumpets have sounded yet at that point?

Just because the description of the trumpets follows the description of the seals in the book doesn't mean all of the trumpets sound after the seventh seal is opened. Christ's birth and ascension is described in Revelation 12 after the seventh trumpet sounds in Revelation 11. But, you wouldn't try to insist that His birth and ascension occurred after the seventh trumpet.

ewq1938 · Dec 26, 2020

Spiritual Jew said:
There is nothing that specifically says all of the seals are opened first before any of the trumpets sound. Can you acknowledge that? That is your assumption.

I don't believe it is assumption. Christ comes and takes the book and opens all 7 seals. That doesn't take long to do and would have been fully completed.

Just because the description of the trumpets follows the description of the seals in the book doesn't mean all of the trumpets sound after the seventh seal is opened.

It's the natural reading of the text. It also follows the way battle plans were opened and read before trumpets were used to signal what the troops were to do. You can't signal with trumps before knowing what was ordered.

Christ's birth and ascension is described in Revelation 12 after the seventh trumpet sounds in Revelation 11. But, you wouldn't try to insist that His birth and ascension occurred after the seventh trumpet.

That is an obvious break in Chronology. There is nothing of the sort between verse 1 and 2 in Revelation 8.

Spiritual Jew · Dec 26, 2020

ewq1938 said:
I don't believe it is assumption. Christ comes and takes the book and opens all 7 seals. That doesn't take long to do and would have been fully completed.

It's the natural reading of the text. It also follows the way battle plans were opened and read before trumpets were used to signal what the troops were to do. You can't signal with trumps before knowing what was ordered.

That is an obvious break in Chronology. There is nothing of the sort between verse 1 and 2 in Revelation 8.

Nothing you said here even comes close to proving that all of the seals are opened before any of the trumpets sound.

You also are not explaining how the time for the wrath of the Lamb has come after the opening of the sixth seal and yet you still have all of the trumpets yet to sound and all of the vials yet to be poured out after that. How can that be possible unless the events described with the trumpets and vials all occurred in very rapid succession?

ewq1938 · Dec 26, 2020

Spiritual Jew said:
Nothing you said here even comes close to proving that all of the seals are opened before any of the trumpets sound.

You also are not explaining how the time for the wrath of the Lamb has come after the opening of the sixth seal and yet you still have all of the trumpets yet to sound and all of the vials yet to be poured out after that. How can that be possible unless the events described with the trumpets and vials all occurred in very rapid succession?

The 6th seal is only a vision of 7th trump events. Christ is not actually returning yet when the 6th seal is opened. He remains in heaven and opens the 7th seal then waits in heaven until the 7th trump sounds which is the sound that tells him it's time to go. That's what trumps do, cause actions to happen. The seals don't do that.

DavidPT · Dec 26, 2020

Spiritual Jew said:
The seals, trumpets and vials are parallel to each other. The trumpets don't follow the seventh seal. How could that be when the wrath of the Lamb is already at hand after the opening of the sixth seal? The book of Revelation is not all chronological.

While I do agree that the trumpets don't follow the 7th seal, I disagree that the trumpets and vials are running in parallel.

While it's true that Revelation is not chronological from start to finish, still things have to be logical. For example, if we have the first trumpet paralleling the first vial, this requires that everything recorded in Revelation 13 has to already be in progress before the first trumpet even sounds. Why? Does not what is recorded in the 1st vial inform us that when that is poured upon the earth, there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image?

That means we need to place every event recorded in Revelation 13 as already in progress when the first trumpet sounds, since it would be silly to be pouring out the first vial on the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image, unless the events recorded in Revelation 13 have already been in progress first. Which then means the beast needs to ascend out of the pit prior to the first trumpet, and another out of the earth, also prior to the first trumpet, and already be fully operational, so that when the first trumpet sounds, assuming it were to parallel the first vial, in order to punish those upon the earth who had the mark of the beast, and which worshipped his image.

According to Revelation 13 there is no mark to take nor an image to worship until the following is fulfilled first.

Revelation 13:11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.
12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.
13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.
15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.
16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

How is it even remotely possible for the first vial to be being poured out before what I have underlined has already come to pass first? What I have underlined obviously can't come to pass until the first beast has ascended out of the pit first. Which then would mean that the beast ascends out of the pit sometime prior to the first trumpet. Yet, I don't know of anyone that would conclude that the beast ascends out of the pit prior to the sounding of the first trumpet. But that is what it would have to mean if the trumpets and vials are running in parallel, where I take you to mean that the 1st trumpet parallels the 1st vial, the 2nd trumpet parallels the 2nd vial, so on and so on.

The fact the 6th seal leads to the 2nd coming, and not the first trumpet, yet it could lead to the first vial though, the fact the 6th seal involves the wrath of God, and so does the 7 last vials, and not only them, but also the 7th trumpet.

Revelation 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

My translation says---in the days of the voice of the seventh angel--giving the impression that the the 7th trumpet involves an era of time, like the first 6 trumpets do, therefore not meaning a 24 hour period or less. Which then could mean, though I'm not saying it means that for certain, since I'm not entirely sure, that it is during these days when the last 7 vials are fulfilled.

Spiritual Jew · Dec 26, 2020

ewq1938 said:
The 6th seal is only a vision of 7th trump events. Christ is not actually returning yet when the 6th seal is opened. He remains in heaven and opens the 7th seal then waits in heaven until the 7th trump sounds which is the sound that tells him it's time to go. That's what trumps do, cause actions to happen. The seals don't do that.

I already said that He and His angels descend from heaven after He opens the seventh seal. So, I'm not saying He descended yet when the sixth seal is opened. But, clearly, His time to descend is at hand when the sixth seal is opened or else it wouldn't make sense for it to describe the wrath of the Lamb being at hand in Revelation 6:12-17.

What is your explanation for the silence in heaven after the opening of the seventh seal? I think it makes a lot of sense that there is silence because Jesus and His angels won't be there anymore after the seventh seal is opened.

Spiritual Jew · Dec 26, 2020

DavidPT said:
While I do agree that the trumpets don't follow the 7th seal, I disagree that the trumpets and vials are running in parallel.

While it's true that Revelation is not chronological from start to finish, still things have to be logical. For example, if we have the first trumpet paralleling the first vial, this requires that everything recorded in Revelation 13 has to already be in progress before the first trumpet even sounds. Why? Does not what is recorded in the 1st vial inform us that when that is poured upon the earth, there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image?

That means we need to place every event recorded in Revelation 13 as already in progress when the first trumpet sounds, since it would be silly to be pouring out the first vial on the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image, unless the events recorded in Revelation 13 have already been in progress first. Which then means the beast needs to ascend out of the pit prior to the first trumpet, and another out of the earth, also prior to the first trumpet, and already be fully operational, so that when the first trumpet sounds, assuming it were to parallel the first vial, in order to punish those upon the earth who had the mark of the beast, and which worshipped his image.

According to Revelation 13 there is no mark to take nor an image to worship until the following is fulfilled first.

Revelation 13:11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.
12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.
13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.
15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.
16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

How is it even remotely possible for the first vial to be being poured out before what I have underlined has already come to pass first? What I have underlined obviously can't come to pass until the first beast has ascended out of the pit first. Which then would mean that the beast ascends out of the pit sometime prior to the first trumpet. Yet, I don't know of anyone that would conclude that the beast ascends out of the pit prior to the sounding of the first trumpet. But that is what it would have to mean if the trumpets and vials are running in parallel, where I take you to mean that the 1st trumpet parallels the 1st vial, the 2nd trumpet parallels the 2nd vial, so on and so on.

The fact the 6th seal leads to the 2nd coming, and not the first trumpet, yet it could lead to the first vial though, the fact the 6th seal involves the wrath of God, and so does the 7 last vials, and not only them, but also the 7th trumpet.

Revelation 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

My translation says---in the days of the voice of the seventh angel--giving the impression that the the 7th trumpet involves an era of time, like the first 6 trumpets do, therefore not meaning a 24 hour period or less. Which then could mean, though I'm not saying it means that for certain, since I'm not entirely sure, that it is during these days when the last 7 vials are fulfilled.

David, sometimes you are very hard to follow. This is one of those times. I'm not even sure how to respond because I can't make much sense of what you're saying here. I suppose part of the reason for that is because our understanding of the beast and of the timing of Revelation 13 is very different.

But, how can all of the vials follow the seventh trumpet when at the seventh trumpet God's wrath will have come, the time of the judgment of the dead will have arrived along with the rewards for believers? Not to mention that "the mystery of God should be finished" (Rev 10:7) at that point. What is left to occur after the judgment of the dead (see Rev 20:11-15) and rewards for believers (see Rev 21:1-4) except for eternity?

jeffweedaman · Dec 27, 2020

Fullness of the Gentiles said:
Whatever the case may be, I'm not totally satisfied with the assumption that "all who dwell on the earth" in the Revelation is a reference to all those who dwell in the world.

Hi
What satisfies me is the fact that all not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world will follow the beast.

All who dwell on the earth will worship him, everyone whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who has been slain.

“The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to come up out of the abyss and go to destruction. And those who dwell on the earth, whose name has not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, will wonder when they see the beast, that he was and is not and will come.

And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

Not seeing any exceptions to this.

Maria Billingsley · Dec 27, 2020

jeffweedaman said:
Do we all agree that this happens at the Lords second coming?

If so , what happens to those who have followed him at this time?

Scripture in Rev states....,

All who dwell on the earth will worship him, everyone whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who has been slain.

And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

“The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to come up out of the abyss and go to destruction. And those who dwell on the earth, whose name has not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, will wonder when they see the beast, that he was and is not and will come.

Rev 14
9 Then another angel, a third one, followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.
11 And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”

Those not in the book of life from the foundation of the world , will follow the beast, and those who follow the beast are thrown into the fire....at his coming.

So who could possibily populate a future millennial reign when Jesus comes again a second time to destroy the beast?

All whose names are not in the book of life from the foundation of the world right up until his coming will have their part in the LOF that was prepared for the devil and his beast angels.

How can one possibly introduce a third group , (who never had their names written in the book of life from the foundation of the world , and avoided the mark of the beast ) , that survives to populate a future period of time after the Lord comes again??

You are taking Dispensational Futurusm to its logical conclusion, confusion.That's refreshing. There are no answers to your questions because the questions themselves are using a paradigm that is not quite right. Blessings

DavidPT · Dec 27, 2020

Spiritual Jew said:
David, sometimes you are very hard to follow. This is one of those times. I'm not even sure how to respond because I can't make much sense of what you're saying here. I suppose part of the reason for that is because our understanding of the beast and of the timing of Revelation 13 is very different.

But, how can all of the vials follow the seventh trumpet when at the seventh trumpet God's wrath will have come, the time of the judgment of the dead will have arrived along with the rewards for believers? Not to mention that "the mystery of God should be finished" (Rev 10:7) at that point. What is left to occur after the judgment of the dead (see Rev 20:11-15) and rewards for believers (see Rev 21:1-4) except for eternity?

As to the beast in question, according to John, at the time of the visions the beast is not, where I take that to mean the beast is in the pit at the time. Also according to John this same beast shall ascend out of the pit at some point. If the first vial indicates that when it is poured upon the earth, and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image---this can't be meaning during a time when the beast is not, but has to be meaning during a time after the beast has already ascended out of the pit. Why would this logic be difficult to follow? It just seems like plain common sense to me, that in order for the first vial to be poured out on those with the mark, that this indicates that the beast has to already be out of the pit and fully operational first. By placing the 1st trumpet and first vial in parallel, this indicates that the beast has to ascend out of the pit and already be fully operational before the first trumpet even sounds.

IOW, all of Revelation 13 followed by the 1st trumpet. Which means a beast first rises out of the sea, another one out of the earth, where this eventually leads to receiving it's mark, and worshiping it's image, followed by the first trumpet if this is supposed to be parallel with the first vial. Yet, it seems to me, that when the first trumpet sounds, the beast hasn't even ascended out of the pit yet. So, how can the first vial parallel the first trumpet when the first vial requires that the beast has already ascended out of the pit and is fully operational in the earth at the time?

Something else to take into consideration is the following.

Revelation 11:9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.

This has to fit somewhere. As to verse 10, does that look like something that might be taking place during the last 7 vials of wrath? Of course not. The vials of wrath have to follow the events recorded in verse 10, not parallel them.

Spiritual Jew · Dec 27, 2020

DavidPT said:
As to the beast in question, according to John, at the time of the visions the beast is not, where I take that to mean the beast is in the pit at the time. Also according to John this same beast shall ascend out of the pit at some point. If the first vial indicates that when it is poured upon the earth, and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image---this can't be meaning during a time when the beast is not, but has to be meaning during a time after the beast has already ascended out of the pit. Why would this logic be difficult to follow? It just seems like plain common sense to me, that in order for the first vial to be poured out on those with the mark, that this indicates that the beast has to already be out of the pit and fully operational first. By placing the 1st trumpet and first vial in parallel, this indicates that the beast has to ascend out of the pit and already be fully operational before the first trumpet even sounds.

IOW, all of Revelation 13 followed by the 1st trumpet. Which means a beast first rises out of the sea, another one out of the earth, where this eventually leads to receiving it's mark, and worshiping it's image, followed by the first trumpet if this is supposed to be parallel with the first vial. Yet, it seems to me, that when the first trumpet sounds, the beast hasn't even ascended out of the pit yet. So, how can the first vial parallel the first trumpet when the first vial requires that the beast has already ascended out of the pit and is fully operational in the earth at the time?

Something else to take into consideration is the following.

Revelation 11:9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.

This has to fit somewhere. As to verse 10, does that look like something that might be taking place during the last 7 vials of wrath? Of course not. The vials of wrath have to follow the events recorded in verse 10, not parallel them.

This didn't make any more sense to me than your other post. The reason for that is because our understanding of the beast is very different. And our understanding of what it means for the beast and for the dragon, Satan, to be in the pit is very different, also. So, we're just not on the same page regarding these things at all.

Neogaia777 · Dec 27, 2020

jeffweedaman said:
How can one possibly introduce a third group , (who never had their names written in the book of life from the foundation of the world , and avoided the mark of the beast ) , that survives to populate a future period of time after the Lord comes again??

Some say that there will be a surviving third group of the "remnant" that will rejoin with those raptured and/or resurrected, when Christ finally returns and just doesn't only just appear to at first to only just resurrect and rapture at first, etc, but that who did not ever take the mark of the beast, etc, who will be rejoining them all at that time, when Christ sets up His rule and reign on earth after all the mass devastation and death and destruction is pretty much over-with, etc, which doesn't take all that long of a time after His first appearing and resurrecting/rapturing at first, etc...

And some say that last part causes it, etc... But that there will be a surviving "remnant", that were not immediately raptured along with the others at first, etc...

"Some say", etc...

And I don't know if they are right, but I got to tell you, I'm making contingency plans for either, or both, or all three, etc...

God Bless!

When is the beast destroyed and thrown into the fire ?

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