20 major reasons to reject the Premillennial doctrine

sovereigngrace said:

Anyone who contends that 2 Peter 3 supports the Premillennial theory that the day of the Lord lasts a literal 1,000 years after the second coming must surely see the absolute absurdity of their notion in the light of the destructive nature of the passage. This vivid account of complete devastation and utter destruction that occurs in this final day totally destroys any credence for the advancement of the Premillennial supposition. If this day lasts 1,000 years, as the Premillennialist passionately argues, then it is unquestionably a thousand years of awful and continuous judgment, which is in stark contradiction to the peaceful (albeit goat-infested) millennium that Premillennialists try to portray in their literature.

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Do you purposefully avoid that a Day with the Lord is separated and set apart as Holy? Was the Garden of Eden on earth prior to sin a constant judgment?

Why are you so hyperliteral? Even Noah's Flood did not last as long as the 6 more years of God's tribulation. Was Noah supposed to spend 1000 years with the Lord in the ark? God allowed Noah to leave the ark and promised his offspring would once again populate the earth. So the type does not just point to humanity prior to the Flood, the destruction of the Flood, it also types the period after the Flood. This time, Christ is in control.

sovereigngrace said:

The Premillennialial paradigm again collapses on the flawed notions that “the day of the Lord” lasts a literal 1,000 years, and that the destruction predicted in the narrative only occurs at the very end of this day, 1,000 years after the second coming of Christ. Notwithstanding, this undoubted forced interpretation of “the day of the Lord” is totally demolished when one realises that the world must therefore be completely destroyed before Satan has his opportunity to “deceive the nations” for “a little season” at the end, after the millennium. There will manifestly be no world or wicked left for Satan to gather Gog and Magog “as the sand of the sea” against “the camp of the saints.” This again only serves to support the belief that this passage can only be fully and completely realised at the second coming of the Lord, and in the Amillennial position. For them to take 2 Peter 3 as it reads (and means) would totally destroy their beloved doctrine.

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The Second Coming clears the earth by fire all that humanity and sin left as a reminder since Noah's Flood. Your twisted narrative does not make sense. Stick to Scripture at least? Your total annihilation theory does not even support the sounding of the 7 Trumpets nor does it leave any 42 months. So placing the 1000 years after the 42 months does not violate any Scripture. In fact, that is exactly where and when John himself declares a 1000 year period.

sovereigngrace said:

Placing the destruction of the world 1,000 years after the second coming of Christ, totally nullifies the whole import of this reading, ignoring the plain warning of the text, the undoubted unexpected all-consummating earth-destroying nature of this judgment and its unquestionable focus upon them that are caught unprepared. 2 Peter 3:10 succinctly says, “the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.”

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The whole reading is about waiting for thousands of years. They happen prior to the end of all things. Only the little detail of scoffers claiming it is pointless to wait for thousands of years seems to point out God is still longsuffering despite the scoffers abounding in the last days. The last days of sin. Sin will be gone, and yet being with the Lord is still a thousand year experience. So the end is only according to God's longsuffering, not any human longsuffering. Are you against Christ spending a thousand years enjoying His creation? Or just whining that John wrote about a future 1000 years?

sovereigngrace said:

The Premillennialist totally ignores the fact that the solemn message embodied within this reading is solely directed towards the “scoffers” in “the last days” that foolishly question the reality of the impending return of Christ. It is not in any way concentrated upon a supposed group of ‘millennial scoffers’ 1,000 years later. If this is supposed to be a collection of ‘millennial scoffers’ 1,000 years after the second coming, why would they be saying, “Where is the promise of his coming? For since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation”? Such a notion is a complete absurdity as Christ’s coming (or parousia) is long past.

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Why do "scoffers" at the end claim Christ is not present? They seem to want to get rid of Christ and His iron rule. Scoffer no, but stupid followers of Satan, yes. What about that earth consuming fire devouring them? It does not stop, and that is the end. What is the hurry to rush things along? 2 Peter 3 is about long periods of time and the longsuffering nature of God. The end and total annihilation is just a side note, not the main topic.

sovereigngrace said:

To take the day of the Lord as a literal 1000 years and to apply the destructive detail outlined in 2 Peter 3 to that same 1000-years-day-of-the-Lord would logically prevent Satan’s little season from occurring after the 1000 years, as the wholesale destruction described in 2 Peter 3 must occur on the day of the Lord, which means there are no wicked to be deceived and no corrupt earth for Satan to operate on. After all, the destruction occurred at the end of their thousand years and before Satan's little season.

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When it comes to endings, you have a weird way of explaining them. Do all your 24 hour days end at 12:01am? How do you even exist? Most of us do not end the day until the whole 24 hours later at 12:00 am. Nor does God seem to hold time in the strictest of 1000 year time frames. About the only one that was perfect was from 3BC to 30AD, and then some human tried changing the human calendar, and still botched the job of aligning human time with God’s time.

sovereigngrace said:

Your response totally ignores what I stated to you. You are clearly avoiding the issue. Your rebuttal shows that it is Amils who take Scripture literal, not Premils.

Anyone who contends that 2 Peter 3 supports the Premillennial theory that the day of the Lord lasts a literal 1,000 years after the second coming must surely see the absolute absurdity of their notion in the light of the destructive nature of the passage. This vivid account of complete devastation and utter destruction that occurs in this final day totally destroys any credence for the advancement of the Premillennial supposition. If this day lasts 1,000 years, as the Premillennialist passionately argues, then it is unquestionably a thousand years of awful and continuous judgment, which is in stark contradiction to the peaceful (albeit goat-infested) millennium that Premillennialists try to portray in their literature.



You are not getting what I am saying. If “the day of the Lord” lasts a literal 1,000 years, and that the destruction predicted in the narrative only occurs at the very end of this day, 1,000 years after the second coming of Christ then the earth is destroyed before Satan has his opportunity to “deceive the nations” for “a little season” at the end, after the millennium. This negates your whole thesis.



Again, you are totally ducking around this Premil contradiction. Placing the destruction of the world 1,000 years after the second coming of Christ, totally nullifies the whole import of this reading, ignoring the plain warning of the text, the undoubted unexpected all-consummating earth-destroying nature of this judgment and its unquestionable focus upon them that are caught unprepared. 2 Peter 3:10 succinctly says, “the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.”



No. They are not mocking at the end of the 1000 years and before Satan's little season as you suppose. If this is supposed to be a collection of ‘millennial scoffers’ 1,000 years after the second coming, why would they be saying, “Where is the promise of his coming? For since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation”? Such a notion is a complete absurdity as Christ’s coming (or parousia) is long past.



To take the day of the Lord as a literal 1000 years and to apply the destructive detail outlined in 2 Peter 3 to that same 1000-years-day-of-the-Lord would logically prevent Satan’s little season from occurring after the 1000 years, as the wholesale destruction described in 2 Peter 3 must occur on the day of the Lord, which means there are no wicked to be deceived and no corrupt earth for Satan to operate on. After all, the destruction occurred at the end of their thousand years and before Satan's little season.

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So you get to tell God how to define this day with the Lord. And no, Satan is loosed and when fire comes out of heaven is the end of the day.

The warning of the text tells us to be patient for this or any 1000 year period. Peter points out the patience not only covering the period since the Cross but goes all the way back to Genesis 1. That is the context of having a Day with the Lord. When Peter wrote this chapter it was over 1900 years ago, and these last day scoffers claimed nothing has changed since the beginning of time. They were non-dispensational complaining about the total absence of God and asking why nothing has changed. Peter then points out the Flood. The destruction of water was change, but the Flood was not long lasting. We know that the next judgment will be with fire and the refining power of fire. We also know that this Day with the Lord is not going to be fire the whole time. Why make up something, just to prove an inconsistency? John says reality does not end until the GWT event. When fire comes down out of heaven it does not last for the whole 1000 years. That is your absurd definition not found in Scripture.

"That Day will bring on the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt from the heat; but we, following along with his promise, wait"

The 6th Seal removes the heavens, yet that is still not the end, but we still wait. How long do we wait? However long it takes with patience. What are we still waiting for?

"new heavens and a new earth, in which righteousness will be at home."

This has to be reconciled with, not change, what Paul and John writes.

25 For he has to rule until he puts all his enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy to be done away with will be death,
27 for “He put everything in subjection under his feet.” But when it says that “everything” has been subjected, obviously the word does not include God, who is himself the one subjecting everything to the Messiah.

7 When the thousand years are over, the Adversary will be set free from his prison...,
But fire came down from heaven and consumed them.
10 The Adversary who had deceived them was hurled into the lake of fire and sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet were; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
11 Next I saw a great white throne and the One sitting on it. Earth and heaven fled from his presence, and no place was found for them.
14 Then Death and Sh’ol were hurled into the lake of fire. This is the second death — the lake of fire.


You cannot declare a constant state of death, just because this 1000 years presupposes the current state. That is the whole point. The millennium IS NOT THE CURRENT STATE!!

Simply accept the Lord is here and in control. It really does not have to fulfill any past prophecy period, because that is not the point that it fulfills prophecy. That it does is besides the point. The millennium is not even about conquering death, because Death is still the last enemy. That Satan is released is the end of the 1000 years. Not that the 1000 years has to end, that is being hyperliteral. You refuse it happens at all, what is the point of how it ends being an issue? At the battle of Armageddon, Satan is not destroyed by fire and cast into the Lake of fire. There is no Scriptural proof of your theory that happens.

At the battle of Armageddon Christ is riding a horse from heaven, whether figurative or literal, does not matter. It is from the sky. The battle is in the valley of Megiddo. That is totally different than Satan gathering an army from the ends of the earth and marching towards the ME. Now you can deny the point it is as Peter put it WITH THE LORD. You can deny the fact as John put it RULE WITH CHRIST A THOUSAND YEARS. You can deny it as Paul put it CHRIST RULES UNTIL GOD PUTS ALL THINGS UNDER HIS FEET.

But you cannot deny there is no Scripture. The GWT is mentioned by John as the end of Death, thus Paul is correct that rule occurs until that point. Peter says to keep waiting until that time, not that the NHNE can supersede both John and Paul. You claim Satan is bound now, but that is hardly the end of death, because death is still a reality. Satan does not have to be bound to actually prevent deception, because you claim he is on a long leash. What is the point? Why Satan still deceives many is not an issue at any time. He deceived Eve in the Garden prior to the existence of sin. Sin does not have anything to do with Satan deceiving us now. Sin is not a factor in deception by Satan one iota.

Your claim that Jesus was amil is certainly more outrageous than the plain reading of Revelation 19 and 20. Jesus claims he does not even know the day or hour of his return. Extending that to not even knowing that another 1000 years exist seems a tad contrived. That fact is not written down at all. Presupposition only. Jesus did not tell them the church would extend 2000 more years and just be patient either. That is why scoffers abound today, and their answer; preterism. Shall we coin a new term for amil and call it peterism, that declares no millennium? Does it make a difference if there is another 1000 years to the saying, "last days"? Last days does not indicate an unending indefinite period of time. Last is specific not indefinite. The Cross was a last day event ending the OT economy, despite the fact the Jews refused to give it up.

Now are the last days of the church. It is also the last days of Adam's punishment. Sin was not going to last on earth to the very end. The church was not going to last on earth to the very end. The OT Law of Moses did not last until the end of time. Just because how God deals with us has a defined beginning and end, does not mean God is finished with all His plans. There is still the subjection of earth and Death itself. The destruction of earth to the point it does not exist is not subjection. The non-existent condition happens after Death, as declared by the GWT event. The rule of the Kingdom is subjected before Death.

Your declaration claims that Jesus hands God a sin infested non-existent earth, and Death at the same instant. Even Peter says we still wait after heaven is dissolved, meaning the fire that leaves earth desolate is not the end. Christ will restore the earth and reign for a full Lord's Day, 1000 years with the Lord. This 1000 years starts the next minute after the battle of Armageddon ends. 6pm according the God's evening as the start of a new day in Genesis 1. John claims every second of that time is realized, and then Satan is released to give those people at the end of the 1000 years a chance to reject God. Do I have an explanation why Satan gets to deceive people? Not really, I have read Job, and there is still not a definite reason. The ability for independent thought with freedom from being only controlled by God, is a start. If Adam could only think what God told him to think, he would never have eaten, no matter what. God's will was to never eat. Nor was it a temptation, to trick Adam to stop thinking and/or accidentally eat. What if the fruit had accidentally got mixed in and unnoticed with other fruit? That is overthinking the situation and placing an undue expectation on the command. We are never told if Adam had an extra burden placed on the details. Eve claimed she was not supposed to touch it is the only hint we are given.

"God said, ‘You are neither to eat from it nor touch it, or you will die.’”

God never said a word about touching it, but we assume Adam may have told her not to touch it, so there would not be an accident. That is part of the rationalization process of one being able to freely think about a phenomenon. The Cross moved sin from being an outward action that is punishable, to now God holds those responsible for what one thinks in their heart and minds. Adam's command was the deliberate willful conscious act of eating directly from the tree. That is the condition of the rule in the millennium of the kingdom that Christ makes subject and hands to God. The last act of Satan removes any living humans who would rather, than accept God, would rather reject God on the basis that is how they think in their heart and minds. God does not transport us into the NHNE against our will, nor does He change the brain to conform it to only think the way God thinks.

Being conformed to God's will is of our own doing, even if we feel lazy and want God to do it for us. Neither does God force us to be who we are not. Satan just seems to have turned out, as a created being that would never understand God, nor would ever want to understand God. Many humans have been that way as well. Not because God forced them that way. That is the freedom of independent thought. That is why there is free will and not determinism, even though God knew how it all would turn out. And being omnipotent does not mean God has the power or ability to change what God knows. What God knows is independent of what God does, while they do blend well together, this does not set limits on God. Just being omnipotent sets limits in it's own definition.

So, yes, I over think it. Obviously you have 20 of your own over thought objections. There is really no Biblical reason why one should think the Lord's Day for both Peter and John was the 1st century. When they wrote, is was years after the Cross and the new church had begun. They were not talking about the Greek and Roman occupation of the last days of the OT, as defined as the last decade of BC leading up to the birth of Jesus Christ. Did they know they were talking about us 1900+ years later? Why not? Just like their original readers who thought they were in the last days, twice even, you can claim this is it, and the world is going to end now. Does not make it true, just like time proved the 1st century readers of the NT, were not in the last days (of earth) either.

sovereigngrace said:

Here is the core of the problem. Because 2 Peter 3 and numerous other Scripture exposes your faulty view of Revelation 20 you are forced to explain away and dismiss text after text in Scripture. You are totally preoccupied with, and dependent upon, one chapter in the Bible – Revelation 20. You interpret the rest of Scripture in the light of your opinion of one lone highly-debated chapter located in the most figurative and obscure book in the Bible. All end-time Scripture is viewed through the lens of Revelation 20. This is not a very wise way to establish any truth or doctrine. Take this passage out of the equation and Premillennialism has nothing in the inspired pages to support their main tenets.



The sixth seal totally demolishers the Premillennial scheme. It shows the conflagration and the destruction of all the wicked. This relays the Amil position. Let us look at the text in Revelation 6:12-17, says, “And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; and the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?”

This is the time of God's final wrath upon the earth. The wicked are so afraid of their impending doom that they want the mountains and rocks to fall on them. Think about this: being crushed by mountains and rocks appeals more to them than facing God's wrath. No wicked will survive this.

Once again, this text finishes with a rhetorical question. The obvious answer (to those who do not have their own theological agenda) is that no one will survive this climatic event.

Revelation 6:12-17 depicts the conflagration that accompanies the return of Christ. It sees the regeneration of this earth and the destruction of all the wicked. This agrees with multiple Scripture.

Creation

· The sun became black
· The moon became as blood
· The stars of heaven fell unto the earth,
· The heaven departs like a scroll
· Every mountain and island are moved out of their places

This is talking about the topography of the physical earth and starry host being totally transformed. This occurs at the climactic return of Christ.

Scripture shows Jesus one and only coming to be totally climactic. When Jesus comes that is it - caught up or caught on, saved or lost, eternal bliss or eternal torment. It is the end. No one survives (see above).



The Premil new earth is a bipolar age of justice and injustice, deliverance and bondage, light and darkness, righteousness and unrighteousness, perfection and sin, glorification and corruption, sin and sinlessness, immortality and mortality, peace and harmony and war and terror.

That would mean we have “this present evil age” and also ‘the future evil age to come’. However, the age to come is never depicted as that. Moreover, whilst the “children of this age marry, and are given in marriage” (according to Christ in Luke 20:34-36), the Lord presents the future age as a glorified place that is earned by those alone who are “accounted worthy to obtain that age.” These people are shown to be the glorified saints alone because Jesus says they “neither marry, nor are given in marriage: Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.”

Premil has countless heathens populating the new earth in their corrupt mortal bodies. These, they say, “marry, and are given in marriage” – just like “the children of this age.” Countless millions of unregenerate unsaved are shown to be “accounted worthy to obtain that age.” The words of Christ negate this. The reality is, biblically, those that are worthy to obtain the age to come are neither mortals nor sinners; they are glorified saints.

Man, in his sinful corruptible state, cannot inherit an incorruptible regenerated earth. Nothing could be plainer!

Deception is rampant in the Premil millennium because there are countless people that reject Christ in their heart and are forced to give feigned worship in Jerusalem to Christ or they will be swiped with Christ's rod of iron? You have the greatest battle in history at the end of the pre-millennial millennium, when the wicked under the command of Satan surround Christ and the glorified saints as a sand of the sea. Your millennium of bliss is a total bust! It is a sham. I am glad it will never occur.



Jesus is king now. Repeated Scripture shows that Christ is reigning now! He is reigning upon high now! He is King! He is Lord. All power and authority belongs to Him now. Your false teaching causes you to dethrone Christ from His sovereign place reigning over His enemies today.

He testified after His resurrection: “All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth” (Matthew 28:18). This is sovereign kingship! He holds this today upon His Father's throne. Him and the Father are one spiritually in authority.

How much more power than “all power ... in heaven and in earth” does He need to exercise power and authority over His enemies?

This proves that Christ has already come and now exercises all power and authority today over all mankind. It means: He carries the Father's divine authority. He is currently enthroned. This is Sovereign kingship! He holds this today upon His Father's throne as God and upon David's throne as Messiah. Him and the Father are one spiritually in authority.

John says in Revelation 3:7, “These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath (present active particle) the key (or authority) of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth.”

He holds all power (without qualification). After all, He is God! God either causes or permits - as He is God and He is sovereign. Simple! That is an explicit biblical truth and a Christian fundamental. The powerful language that accompanies the mention of Christ holding the key of David proves that this is referring to His majestic power and might. It says, “he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth.” This speaks of spiritual power. The key allows Christ to sovereignly open and shut in a way that no man can thwart or override.

He reigns today over the seen and the unseen world making every power and every authority “subject unto him.”

Heaven’s authority is bestowed upon Christ. He is God! Colossians 2:9-10, 14-15 confirms: "For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power … Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; And having spoiled (or divested or disarmed) principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.”

He rules intimately over His spiritual kingdom as Messiah and sovereignly over the physical kingdoms of the world and over all mankind as God.

He rules intimately over His spiritual kingdom as Saviour and sovereignly over the physical kingdoms of the world and over all mankind as Lord.

1 Peter 3:22 says, that Christ, “who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God (now!!!); angels and authorities and powers being (currently!!!) made subject unto him.”

Without a doubt Christ is reigning over His enemies since the resurrection, waiting for their final predetermined put down. Those who question Christ’s current reign do great assault upon the truth of God’s Word and undermine the current sovereign kingly position that He now assuredly holds. They also circumvent clear New Testament writings that teach Christ is reigning now.

1 Timothy 6:13-16 says, “I give thee charge in the sight of God, who quickeneth all things, and before Christ Jesus, who before Pontius Pilate witnessed a good confession; That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ: Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate (dunastes or ruler, great authority or mighty), the King of kings, and Lord of lords; Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.”

He is going to reveal to mankind, time, and to the natural, what He is now in heaven, the invisible realm and in eternity. He "is (indeed) the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords.”

This all confirms my previous contention after years of debating this matter in my 13 major reasons why I abandoned the Premil doctrine: Premil is constantly exalting the power and influence of Satan and diluting the sovereign power and influence of Christ. That is nowhere more evident than in their constant rubbishing of Christ’s current kingship over His enemies at the right hand of majesty on high. Whether they mean to or not, Premils are always highlighting what Satan is doing in our day instead of what Christ is doing. Premil portrays a BIG devil and a small god, Amil has a small devil and a BIG God. In Premil, Satan seems sovereign in this age and God is curtailed. Premils are always lauding the ability of Satan since the cross. In Amil, Christ is sovereign and Satan is curtailed. Amils are always lauding the ability of Christ since the cross. As a consequence, Premil portrays an impotent beat-down New Testament Church, whereas Amil sees a victorious potent New Testament Church invading the nations with the good news of Christ and subjugating the powers of darkness as they do so. In Amil Christ reigns over all creation as God and His new creation as Saviour.

If Christ is not already King of kings, then neither is He already Lord of lords. But Revelation 17:14 tell us: "These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful."

This doesn't say He will eventually become Lord of lords and King of kings. It rather says that He is already that.

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Do you just see what you want in these verses to prove your point?

I gave all the points in 2 Peter 3 which is my proof text. I do not use Revelation 20 to interpret 2 Peter 3. It is Peter who claims it is a Day with the Lord.

You are not addressing my points, but once again taking Scripture out of context to point out your view.

Revelation 6:12-17 makes no claim these human die that day. That is your biased interpretation to prove your point. A rhetorical question is not a statement of fact. Revelation 16:15 is the rhetorical answer, and not a statement of fact. Revelation 19 at the the battle of Armageddon is when those same humans get their answer and it was years after Revelation 6.

You have the burden of proof that these two separate events are the same event. John declares other wise. That is not my private interpretation. Does anyone accept Revelation 6 as the Second Coming? If these humans literally see God on the throne and the Lamb on earth, what is this event? Why does no one even use this verse as the rapture? Does John literally have to label and explain everything?

As for explaining your point of view, you keep doing that and then dismiss anything I post in avoidance. I understand your argument. I do not accept any arguments as being a reason to deny Revelation 20 as being anything other than a literal event, and not some theologians imagination. Yes, spiritually the spiritual side of Adam's disobedience is subjected. But you all have a weird definition of this current sin infested, goat ridden, Satan worshipping, wicked ungodly earth as being holy sanctified and subjected to God. Yes your same excuses why the millennium cannot be a thing is the very reasons why it is not now. You refute your own theology.

sovereigngrace said:

Revelation 20 shows us what every other passage in Scripture teaches us - that the second coming see the general resurrection of all the dead and the general judgment. Look at what is highlighted in green.

The third parallel in Revelation 11:15 makes reference to the seventh angel with the last trump, again being in complete agreement with consistent New Testament teaching (including the conclusion of the second parallel in Revelation 10) on this single, final, all-consummating nature of the Second Advent, saying, “And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.”

The next verse, verse 18 then reveals how the Second Advent ushers in the general judgment, saying, “And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest (1) give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest (2) destroy them which destroy the earth. And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.”

One cannot help but note the finality attached to the sounding of the seventh trumpet. This is particularly striking when you then compare this to the trumpet passages that connect to the second coming of the Lord. The link is unquestionable.

Whichever way you look at it, there is an unquestionable finality surrounding the echo of the seventh trumpet. This corresponds with the conclusiveness associated with Second Coming passages elsewhere in Scripture. Let us look at some of the all-consummating detail.

1 Corinthians 15:20-28 says: “now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. For (or gar or seeing) since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For (or gar or seeing) as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. Then cometh the end, when ‘he shall have delivered up’ (present active subjunctive) the kingdom to God, even the Father; when ‘he shall have put down’ (aorist active subjunctive) all rule and all authority and power. For (or gar or seeing) he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. For (or gar or seeing) ‘he hath put’ (aorist active indicative) all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. And when all things shall be subdued unto him (speaking of the second coming), then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all” (1 Corinthians 15:25-28).

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Paul does not know about the Second Coming the same as John. If Paul is interpreting John's Revelation Paul never corrects John about the Millennium. Paul if the Millennium was wrong as John wrote it would have been used by the Holy Spirit to correct John. Paul said it would happen in his lifetime. Did the Holy Spirit correct that point?

You do not even accept the chronology of John. Sorry, but Paul does not back your claim. Paul shows the same chronology, except Paul cannot say it will be in 2021 and last until 3021.

Besides, we can clearly see in Paul's writings, only after the Second Coming will all things be subjected, and you claim they were before any of the NT was even written. Paul states at Christ's coming. You have it in blue. That was not the Cross, Paul says the next coming, the second coming. Paul says Christ will still reign after the Second Coming.

sovereigngrace said:

Death is destroyed at the second coming, the time here denoted as “the end.” As Jesus comes and rescues ‘the just’ in the twinkling of an eye He also destroys ‘the unjust’. This passage is distinctly a description of the end. Those “in Adam all die.” The second coming is shown to be termination of all rebellion. It is the time “when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power." But equally, “in Christ shall all be made alive.” This is the time “when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father.” It is clear that everything is tied up at the end (“His Coming”).

The usage of the word “for” in this reading simply tells us that what follows is a deduction drawn from what has previously been stated. The 4 uses of the word “for” (or gar or seeing) in this reading demonstrates (in all cases) what is being spoken of is an inference to what has just been stated. In this particular passage, the Greek word gar links and then further expands upon the fact that the Second Advent is the time “when he (Christ) shall have (finally) put down all rule and all authority and power.” The Greek word ‘gar’, which interprets and carries the same meaning as our English word “for” is used as a key constituent part of the previous statement or subject matter, to simply allocate a fuller enlargement or reinforcement of the matter just mentioned. The word is mainly used for the purpose of argument, explanation or intensification.

In the case of this passage, the four references to gar connect and further develop the solemn truth of the fall of man and the blessed truth and present reality of Christ’s current heavenly reign over every enemy. Moreover, after clearly telling us that the parousia is “the end” and that it unquestionably corresponds with the all-consummating delivering up of “the kingdom to God,” and with the point “when he shall have (finally) put down all rule and all authority and power” the Holy Spirit simply explains that “he (Christ) must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.” Of course, Scripture makes it abundantly clear that Christ’s rule over His enemies is a present reality that will be finally concluded at the appearance of Christ.

As you well know: there is no 1,000 yrs mentioned (or recognized) in this passage. You have to force it into the sacred text. It rather demonstrates (like the rest of Scripture) that the end is the end and that it comes at the return of Christ.

1 Corinthians 15:50-55 declares, “flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption (phthora or decay) inherit incorruption (aphthrsia or unending existence). Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?”

This passage closely mirrors Romans 8, confirming that the last enemy is demolished at “the last trump.” Corruption finds it end when Christ comes in all His glory. This corroborates what Paul was teaching about “the bondage of corruption” being terminated when the elect are redeemed at Christ’s appearing. No one can deny the correlation between the glorification of the elect and the glorification of the earth. God’s people cannot populate an incorrupt earth. They need their bodies suitably attired in perfection to be able to enjoy that eternal state.

In Luke 20:34-36 Jesus basically compares the temporal imperfect state of this present age/world to the glory of the age/world to come. Jesus says: “The children of this world (or aion or age) marry, and are given in marriage: But they which shall be accounted worthy (or kataxioō) to obtain that world (or aion or age), and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage: Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.”

This couldn’t be any clearer. It is “the children of God” alone that are glorified and therefore past from life unto death. It is “they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world (or aion or age).” This privileged group no longer engage in temporal earthly relationships “Neither can they die any more.” First, we see it is only the elect that are worthy of inheriting the age to come, secondly, according to Jesus, death is not possible in the next age (i.e., “that age”). This favoured group cannot die because they possess eternal glorified bodies. This totally negates the Premil paradigm.

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Sorry, but you insert too much into the text.
Paul never states the Second Coming ends the rule of Christ. You are placing the end of Death before the reign of Christ.

sovereigngrace said:

We cannot overlook the clear teaching that one must be “accounted worthy to obtain” the “world (or age)” to come. This is a very definite precondition for entering the new earth. That worthiness is obviously found in Christ. All that are saved when the Master returns will immediately be glorified, thus perfectly qualifying them to inhabit the newly regenerated earth. We see this mentioned in this reading. It is only those deemed fully justified that make it. There is only a certain type of person therefore that Christ counts worthy to “obtain” or tugchano meaning ‘to attain or secure an object or end’. It is a personal relation with Christ. There is no other ticket into the eternal state.

The children of the wicked one are not worthy to populate the new regenerated earth. As we have highlighted, the phrase “to obtain that world” is taken from the single Greek word kataxioo which means ‘to deem entirely deserving’. It plainly requires special merit to inherit the age to come.

Premil has countless heathens populating the new earth in their corrupt mortal bodies. They have all the vice of our day prospering in their millennial age. They have all the sin and debauchery and rebellion of our day continuing in that day. Contrary to what Jesus says, Premil has millennial mortals continuing to “marry, and are given in marriage” – just like “the children of this age.” They render millions of unregenerate unsaved worthy to inherit the new earth. They are “accounted worthy to obtain that age.” However, the words of Christ negate such a belief.

Revelation 20:11-15 – 21:1-5: “And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away (or departed). And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new.”

Revelation 22:3 tells us that when the new heavens and new earth arrive: “there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him.”

Revelation 20:11-15, 21:1-5 and Revelation 22:3 describe the perfect conditions that are introduced when Jesus Christ returns. No one with any sanity could say that such a state exists today. It doesn’t! This only accompanies the glorification of this sin-cursed world, because justice has finally been executed upon sin. It is then and only then that there will be:

· No more dying.
· No more crying.
· No more pain.
· No more sorrow.
· No more curse.

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You are pushing works here. I never claimed what you are saying and you keep denying that the millennium is without sin, because it starts after the 7th Trumpet which does end sin. A resurrection into a sin free incorruptible body is not part of the church and glorification. What it is, is the restoration of an incorruptible body. The millennium is a time where humanity will prosper without a sin nature. That is why the millennium is NOT NOW. John gave us God's plan, and for some reason amil and post mil refuse to see the millennium God's way. It starts at the end of the battle of Armageddon, and all humanity are dead. Then there is a bodily resurrection. That is the text. Any other explanation is private theology even if every human on earth believes that theology.

sovereigngrace said:

Conclusion

The disturbing mantra you make is: "what saith your private interpretation Rev 20 - even if it contradicts numerous other Scripture." Like Paul the Apostle, the Amil belief is based upon: "what saith Scripture." It is here where Premil hits the rocks. This is why we disagree!

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You still fail to address my points but preach your own. Then you use colorful words (not colored text) to avoid the topic. Saying the same post a thousand times will not prove a belief system. Since when is pointing out the literal text a private opinion? Sorry, but all post online is considered some one's opinion. Your scoffing pre-mil is a private opinion. If we did not use our thoughts, communication would cease to exist. Does the Holy Spirit teach you to make fun of the body of Christ?

sovereigngrace said:

You did not address any of my previous points or posts. You ducked around them. That is what you do. You explain away any Scripture that exposes your opinion of Revelation20. 2 Peter 3 and Revelation 6:12-17 are just 2 of many Scriptures that forbid your beliefs.

Once again you have ignored every point i made regarding 2 Peter 3. You have to. It is a plainly climactic Scripture.

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Well I did but you keep doing the same thing you accuse me of. One day you may actually address them instead of just repeating the same walls of text.

sovereigngrace said:

The same Holy Spirit within Paul was also within Peter and John. Not sure how you do not see that. They all describe the exact same climactic coming of Christ at the end of the world. This demolished the Premil paradigm.

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Seems you avoid their actual words. John says there is a 1000 year rule. You deny the Kingship of Christ.

sovereigngrace said:

Your Dispy teachers have taught you wrong. Revelation is not chronological.

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I read the Bible. It is my "Dispy" teacher.

See, "not Chronological" is code for "John got it wrong and only I know the truth." Your code breakers taught you wrong.

Is it out of order or parallel views that are out of order? Why do you really think John made it so hard for 1st century readers?

sovereigngrace said:

Your denial of the kingship, authority and rule of Christ causes you to promote sin, sinners, death, disease, war and terror, and Satan and his minions on your supposed future millennial earth.

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So claiming Christ rules on earth is denying the Kingship of Christ? Your denial of Revelation 20 puts you on John's naughty list:

"I warn everyone hearing the words of the prophecy in this book that if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues written in this book. And if anyone takes anything away from the words in the book of this prophecy, God will take away his share in the Tree of Life and the holy city, as described in this book."

sovereigngrace said:

I refer you back to multiple posts that you have avoided.

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The Walls of text, or can you address one "topic" at a time?

sovereigngrace said:

There is a reason why Pretrib and Premil are on the ropes on forums like this. (1) They are clearly unbiblical and (2) have no answer to the Amil position. The impartial observe will note your continual avoidance of the core arguments presented. That is your MO.

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Do you realize this is a cut and paste answer found many times in this thread alone?

I have posted God's Word and your reply is:

"There is a reason why Pretrib and Premil are on the ropes on forums like this. (1) They are clearly unbiblical and (2) have no answer to the Amil position. The impartial observe will note your continual avoidance of the core arguments presented. That is your MO."

Why is this your answer to use to avoid the posts I have used Scripture?

keras said:

The attempt by some here to make the thousand years, as stated six times in Revelation 20; into an allegorical time period, is a blatant attempt to deny and reject the plain prophesies of the Bible.
In this case; the Words of Jesus to His servants.

People who do this, incur the curse of Revelation 22:18-19

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To suggest that Revelation 22:18-19 applies to someone who interprets something differently than you do is utter nonsense. Stop judging others or you will be judged yourself.

How much time do you believe Daniel's 70 weeks represent?

Do you believe the "one hour" mentioned in the following verse is referring to a literal sixty minute time period?

Revelation 17:12 “The ten horns you saw are ten kings who have not yet received a kingdom, but who for one hour will receive authority as kings along with the beast.

sovereigngrace said:

The kingdom that you anticipate is a sin-curse, goat-infested, death blighted fiasco. We have the biggest religious turn-around in history: from a millennial kingdom where the nations wholesale supposedly submit to Christ in righteousness (as Premils portray) to a mass revival of Satanism as "the sand of the sea." Sadly, this is all done with Christ at the helm. The Premillennial millennium culminates in the greatest global uprising in history from the four corners of the earth as “the sand of the sea” against the “camp of the saints.”

This has to be the greatest falling away in history. It is the biggest religious deception in history. It is the most pronounced religious circus in history. It makes Christ out to be deceived - believing He had mass allegiance when in fact he had a millennium full of phonies. His outreach to the nations is a complete bust. It makes His efforts out to be a failure. His attempt to reign in righteousness, glory and power is an unmitigated mess.

So much for the perfect pristine paradise of unparalleled, historic and wholesale submission to the authority of the Lord Jesus Christ Premil millennium!!!

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Absolutely true. How exactly a thousand year time period full of bliss and perfect peace under the rule of Jesus Christ in all His glory could suddenly all fall apart so quickly to the point where "a number as the sand of the sea" would rebel against Christ and His followers soon afterwards is beyond reason.

Premil makes this future thousand years of Christ's rule on earth completely ineffective and pointless. It also makes Satan more powerful than Christ because Satan would be able to attract more loyal followers in a short period of time than Christ would be able to in 1000 years despite being on the earth in all His glory during a time of perfect peace. Somehow, Satan would be able to offer people something more attractive than the thousand years of peace they had just experienced with Christ in all His glory?

keras said:

Your lengthy post fails to prove Amill.

And rants like this show how wrong and confused you are.
Jesus will reign and the world will be in peace and prosperity. ONLY at the end of the 1000 year, will Satan be released for a short time. He will deceive many, they will go to destruction for changing their allegiance.

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You say he will deceive many as if it won't be a tremendously large number. It says the number will be "as the sand of the sea". Please explain how Satan would be able to deceive that many people in a short amount of time after they had just experienced 1000 years of peace and prosperity while seeing Jesus in all His glory? How does that make any sense? What would Satan have to offer that would even compare to what they had just experienced for the past 1000 years?

Timtofly said:

Why would I assume John is lying? Did you assume that when you started at Revelation 1:1 that John may being lying at certain points? John gave us no reason to take this chapter symbolically.

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Was my question too difficult or did you somehow miss it?

Do you believe Daniel's prophecy in Daniel 9:24 was for a literal 70 weeks (490 days) or was it 490 years? If it was 490 years does that mean Daniel was lying and that it was supposed to be 70 literal 7-day weeks instead?

Timtofly said:

Paul does not know about the Second Coming the same as John. If Paul is interpreting John's Revelation Paul never corrects John about the Millennium. Paul if the Millennium was wrong as John wrote it would have been used by the Holy Spirit to correct John. Paul said it would happen in his lifetime. Did the Holy Spirit correct that point?

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Here you are again, as you've done before, claiming that Paul made a mistake in something he wrote. What is wrong with you? Do you not understand that the Holy Spirit inspired Paul to write everything he wrote just the same as He inspired John to write everything he wrote? To suggest that Paul made a mistake is shameful!

Also, where are you getting the idea that Paul said the second coming would happen in his lifetime? He never said that. He believed it could, but he never said that it would. He knew that Jesus said no one knows the day or hour of His coming (Matt 24:36). That's why, in 1 Thessalonians 5:1, Paul said "But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you".