BrotherJJ

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Below find : 5 Bible translations PRE 1611 KJV that ALL say departure not falling away.

A falling away/departure from what? The christian faith or the earth?

KJV Dictionary Definition: DEPARTURE, n.

1. The act of going away; a moving from or leaving a place; as a departure from London.

The time of my departure is at hand. 2 Tim. 4.

(MY NOTE: act of going away, leaving a place, departing from a place. Nothing about apostasy mentioned in KJ Bible Dictionary Definition for departure

1599 Geneva Bible
2 Thessalonians 2:
1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our assembling unto him,
(MY NOTE: Assembling/gathered up together UNTO him/Christ. The catching-up in 1 Thes 4:16-17 is the biggest single gathering at/to that point in time/history)

2 That ye be not suddenly moved from your mind, nor troubled neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter, as it were from us, as though the day of Christ were at hand.
(MY NOTE: John 14:1-3 Jesus while explaining His coming for the Church says be not troubled. 2nly the Day of the Lord lasts 1000 yrs. See 2 Pet 3:8 & Ps 90:4. The Day of the Lord starts with the 70th week of Daniel/7 years of tribulation. Thes 2:4-5 teach the departure/catching-up/rapture must come before the man of sin is revealed & the tribulation begins)

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a departing first, and that man of sin be disclosed, even the son of perdition.
(MY NOTE: I've posted here 4 Bibles written before 1611 KJV. They all say a departure (catching-up = rapture) comes first. Then the man of sin will be revealed)

4 Which is an adversary, and exalteth himself against all that is called God, or that is worshipped: so that he doth sit as God in the Temple of God, showing himself that he is God.
(MY NOTE: The revealing of the man of sin will happen after the Churches departure)

5 Remember ye not, that when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
(MY NOTE: Again read John 14:1-3)

6 And now ye know what withholdeth, that he might be revealed in his time.
(MY NOTE: The Holy Spirit of God is the only Person with the supernatural power/authority to do this restraining)

7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he which now withholdeth, shall let till he be taken out of the way.
(MY NOTE: It's the Holy Spirit Who lives/dwells within each believer that is withholding/restraining the son of perdition/man of sins arrival. When Christ's Holy Spirit filled Body of Christ/Church departs/is caught-up/raptured. Then no restraints for sin remain. The man of sin will simultaneously be cast out of heaven Rev 12:7 and hurled to earth)

Genesis 6:3 (A) The LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh:

Find 4 more pre 1611 Bible translations stating departure, not a falling away

1526 Tyndale Bible
2 Thessalonians 2:3 (B) ""the lorde commeth not excepte ther come a departynge fyrst"" and that that synfnll man be opened ye sonne of perdicion

1537 Matthews Bible
2 Thessalonians 2:3 (B) ""the Lord cometh not/except ther come a departure"" that the sinfull man opened/the son of perdition

Miles Coverdale Bible (1535)
2 Thes 2:3 Let noman disceaue you by eny meanes. For the LORD commeth not, ""except the departynge come 1st"" and that that Man of synne be opened, euen the sonne of perdicion,

1540 The Great Bible
2 Thessalonians 2:3 (B) ""the lord comes not except a departure first"", and the sinfull man be showed, son of perdition,

The great tribulation to come is called the time of Jacobs/Israels trouble Jer 30:7.

Find supporting scripture on Gods people (Body of Christ/Church) escaping wrath:

We see here the church escaping the wrath of the great tribulation soon to be poured out

1 Thes 1:10, And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even ""Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come""

Rom 5:9 being now justified by his blood ""we shall be saved from wrath"" through him

1 thes 5:9 ""God hath not appointed us to wrath"" but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ

The angels couldn’t destroy Sodom and Gomorrah until Lot and his family were clear

Noah and his family were delivered from wrath before the flood came

Isa 26:
20 "Come my people, enter our chambers & shut the door behind you, "hide yourself until the indignation is past"
(MY NOTE: God's people are to enter our chambers. Our bridal chambers? To hide from God's coming indignation/wrath/judgement on unbelievers)

21 For, behold, the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.
(MY NOTE: The LORD cometh out of his place to punish the Christ rejecting/unbelievers of the earth for their iniquity/sins)

MY NOTE: "Not" to punish believers/church, their iniquity/sins were forgiven & nailed to His Cross. The believers/church will be hidden away with their Bridegroom. Believers/The Bride/Body of Church have peace & reconciliation, via belief/FAITH placed in Christ's redemptive sin atoning sacrifice. Found in Christ's death, burial & resurrection 1 Cor 15:1-4.

At the physical return/2nd advent when Jesus returns & STANDS on MT. Olive. The caught-up/raptured saints are with the Lord.

Zec 14:
3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.

4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
(MY NOTE: When Jesus returns HIS FEET shall stand on Mt Olives (same place he ascended from Acts 1:9-11)

5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.
(MY NOTE: The LORD my God shall come & all the saints are with him).
 
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ewq1938

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Below find : 4 Bible translations PRE 1611 KJV that ALL say departure not falling away.

A falling away/departure from what? The christian faith or the earth?

The word "falling away" is apostasia from where we get the words Apostate and Apostasy. Obviously it means a moral and spiritual "departure" not a physical departure.

G646
ἀποστασία
apostasia
Thayer Definition:
1) a falling away, defection, apostasy
Part of Speech: noun feminine
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: feminine of the same as G647
Citing in TDNT: 1:513, 88
Total KJV occurrences: 2

The only other use of this word in the bible was people departing from the teachings of Moses. Neither use has anything to do with simply going somewhere physically.



Liddell & Scott


A defection, revolt, v.l. in D.H.7.1, J.Vit.10, Plu.Galb.1; esp. in religious sense, rebellion against God, apostasy, LXX Jo.22.22, 2 Ep.Th.2.3.
2 departure, disappearance, Olymp. in Mete.320.2.
3 distinguishing, c. gen., Elias in Cat.119.7.
4 distance, Archim.Aren.1.5.

2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

According to Liddell and Scott Greek, the word "apostasia" in 2Th 2:3 means, "revolt" especially "in religious sense, rebellion against God".

A second link is here:

LSJ
 
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Jamdoc

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Context solves the issue
2 Thessalonians 2:1 clarifies that what Paul is about to talk about, has to do with the rapture.
The fact that Paul equates the rapture to the coming of our Lord is important. The rapture IS a coming of Jesus you don't just disappear on a normal day just like that silently, the "silent rapture" idea.
1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 describes a noisy event and it describes Jesus descending from heaven.
The fact that in 2 Thessalonians 2:2 equates that coming down from heaven (into the clouds where we meet Him, so Jesus doesn't touch down on the mount of olives at this time), with the Day of Christ is also important. If you want to think of "the Day of Christ" as being different than "the Day of the Lord" okay fine, but if you equate them to be the same "Day" then it'd logically mean that the rapture happens and then is followed by the Day of the Lord and all of God's wrath. Not a gap between.
So what Paul teaches is Jesus comes in the clouds, rapture, then day of the Lord... unless you want to say the Day of Christ is different than the Day of the Lord to which I'll say, okay fine, Paul used a different term and it's making an assumption that they mean the same thing.
What you cannot do though, is say that 2 Thessalonians 2:1 and 2 Thessalonians 2:2 are talking about 2 separate, unconnected events. They have to be connected otherwise Paul wouldn't have said 2 Thessalonians 2:1
2 Thessalonians 2:3, makes 2 Thessalonians 2:1-2 conditional that is, they cannot happen until something else happens first.
So why would the rapture, be its own prerequisite condition?
It'd be like saying we're going on a trip, but we can't leave the airport until we arrive at our final destination. That's nonsensical.
Instead Paul tells us we're going on a trip, but can't leave the airport until our plane arrives at the gate and we've boarded.
Furthermore, in 2 Thessalonians 2:6-7 provides a prerequisite condition to one of the prerequisite conditions of the rapture.
What Paul has basically said, is that the rapture can't happen until there's a departing, and the antichrist arrives. Then he says the antichrist can't arrive until whoever is restraining him is taken out of the way.
First, the departure can't be the rapture itself, because like I said, an event can't be it's own prerequisite condition. So with that context, the departure has to be something else, that is why it is translated as falling away or apostasy or rebellion. It's a departure from faith, a departure from the church at the very least.
Second, most pretribulationalists assume that the restrainer is the church or holy spirit inside the church members. However, Paul already gave that the rapture can't take place until the antichrist is revealed. How then can the rapture be the prerequisite condition for the antichrist to be revealed? If the restrainer is the church/holy spirit, and the rapture is taking them out of the way so that antichrist rises, then Paul was in error for stating that the rapture has prerequisite conditions in 2 Thessalonians 2:1-3. The logic doesn't flow that the rapture is its own prerequisite condition fulfillment, or the fulfillment of one of its prerequisite condition's prerequisite conditions.
It's a multi dependency statement that Paul has made in 2 Thessalonians 2:1-7. He says A can't happen until B and C happen, then he says C can't happen until D happens. A can't be B, and A also can't be D.
So both B, and D, have to be different things.
B (the departure/apostasy/falling away/rebellion/revolt/apostasia) has to be a spiritual departure from faith.
D (the restrainer being moved out of the way) has to be someone other than the church/holy spirit, unless you believe that the Holy Spirit leaves the church before the rapture, which would be weird considering that Jesus will never leave us or forsake us.

So, who is the restrainer?
My theory is the Archangel Michael.
I say this because of Daniel 12:1, and Revelation 12:7-12
In both cases, Michael does something and then immediately following, is a time of troubles/Great Tribulations.
That's twice in the bible, in 2 "companion" prophetic books, that Michael is connected to the beginning of the Great Tribulations.
Not to mention, if Michael is able to cast Satan out of Heaven, then Michael is certainly capable of restraining Satan.
 
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Gregorikos

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Below find : 4 Bible translations PRE 1611 KJV that ALL say departure not falling away.

A falling away/departure from what? The christian faith or the earth?

KJV Dictionary Definition: DEPARTURE, n.

1. The act of going away; a moving from or leaving a place; as a departure from London.

The time of my departure is at hand. 2 Tim. 4.

(MY NOTE: act of going away, leaving a place, departing from a place. Nothing about apostasy mentioned in KJ Bible Dictionary Definition for departure

1599 Geneva Bible
2 Thessalonians 2:
1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our assembling unto him,
(MY NOTE: Assembling/gathered up together UNTO him/Christ. The catching-up in 1 Thes 4:16-17 is the biggest single gathering at/to that point in time/history)

2 That ye be not suddenly moved from your mind, nor troubled neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter, as it were from us, as though the day of Christ were at hand.
(MY NOTE: John 14:1-3 Jesus while explaining His coming for the Church says be not troubled. 2nly the Day of the Lord lasts 1000 yrs. See 2 Pet 3:8 & Ps 90:4. The Day of the Lord starts with the 70th week of Daniel/7 years of tribulation. Thes 2:4-5 teach the departure/catching-up/rapture must come before the man of sin is revealed & the tribulation begins)

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a departing first, and that man of sin be disclosed, even the son of perdition.
(MY NOTE: I've posted here 4 Bibles written before 1611 KJV. They all say a departure (catching-up = rapture) comes first. Then the man of sin will be revealed)

4 Which is an adversary, and exalteth himself against all that is called God, or that is worshipped: so that he doth sit as God in the Temple of God, showing himself that he is God.
(MY NOTE: The revealing of the man of sin will happen after the Churches departure)

5 Remember ye not, that when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
(MY NOTE: Again read John 14:1-3)

6 And now ye know what withholdeth, that he might be revealed in his time.
(MY NOTE: The Holy Spirit of God is the only Person with the supernatural power/authority to do this restraining)

7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he which now withholdeth, shall let till he be taken out of the way.
(MY NOTE: It's the Holy Spirit Who lives/dwells within each believer that is withholding/restraining the son of perdition/man of sins arrival. When Christ's Holy Spirit filled Body of Christ/Church departs/is caught-up/raptured. Then no restraints for sin remain. The man of sin will simultaneously be cast out of heaven Rev 12:7 and hurled to earth)

Genesis 6:3 (A) The LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh:

Find 4 more pre 1611 Bible translations stating departure, not a falling away

1526 Tyndale Bible
2 Thessalonians 2:3 (B) ""the lorde commeth not excepte ther come a departynge fyrst"" and that that synfnll man be opened ye sonne of perdicion

1537 Matthews Bible
2 Thessalonians 2:3 (B) ""the Lord cometh not/except ther come a departure"" that the sinfull man opened/the son of perdition

Miles Coverdale Bible (1535)
2 Thes 2:3 Let noman disceaue you by eny meanes. For the LORD commeth not, ""except the departynge come 1st"" and that that Man of synne be opened, euen the sonne of perdicion,

1540 The Great Bible
2 Thessalonians 2:3 (B) ""the lord comes not except a departure first"", and the sinfull man be showed, son of perdition,

The great tribulation to come is called the time of Jacobs/Israels trouble Jer 30:7.

Find supporting scripture on Gods people (Body of Christ/Church) escaping wrath:

We see here the church escaping the wrath of the great tribulation soon to be poured out

1 Thes 1:10, And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even ""Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come""

Rom 5:9 being now justified by his blood ""we shall be saved from wrath"" through him

1 thes 5:9 ""God hath not appointed us to wrath"" but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ

The angels couldn’t destroy Sodom and Gomorrah until Lot and his family were clear

Noah and his family were delivered from wrath before the flood came

Isa 26:
20 "Come my people, enter our chambers & shut the door behind you, "hide yourself until the indignation is past"
(MY NOTE: God's people are to enter our chambers. Our bridal chambers? To hide from God's coming indignation/wrath/judgement on unbelievers)

21 For, behold, the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.
(MY NOTE: The LORD cometh out of his place to punish the Christ rejecting/unbelievers of the earth for their iniquity/sins)

MY NOTE: "Not" to punish believers/church, their iniquity/sins were forgiven & nailed to His Cross. The believers/church will be hidden away with their Bridegroom. Believers/The Bride/Body of Church have peace & reconciliation, via belief/FAITH placed in Christ's redemptive sin atoning sacrifice. Found in Christ's death, burial & resurrection 1 Cor 15:1-4.

At the physical return/2nd advent when Jesus returns & STANDS on MT. Olive. The caught-up/raptured saints are with the Lord.

Zec 14:
3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.

4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
(MY NOTE: When Jesus returns HIS FEET shall stand on Mt Olives (same place he ascended from Acts 1:9-11)

5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.
(MY NOTE: The LORD my God shall come & all the saints are with him).

I don't know. But you post a bunch of the King Jive Version and my eyes glass over. Let's do it in English:

Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the  apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, 2 Thessalonians 2:3 (NASB)

Let no one deceive you in any way; for that day will not come unless the rebellion comes first and the lawless one is revealed, the one destined for destruction. 2 Thessalonians 2:3 (NRSV)

Yeah that's good enough for me. I get it now.
 
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Jamdoc

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Could we have a short summery of your point, please?
He wants to defend pretribulationalism and say that a definitive biblical proof of it being pretribulation is there by claiming that 2 Thessalonians 2:3 is referring to the rapture, rather than apostasy, rebellion, falling away.
 
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Jamdoc

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I don't know. But you post a bunch of the King Jive Version and my eyes glass over. Let's do it in English:

Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the  apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, 2 Thessalonians 2:3 (NASB)

Let no one deceive you in any way; for that day will not come unless the rebellion comes first and the lawless one is revealed, the one destined for destruction. 2 Thessalonians 2:3 (NRSV)

Yeah that's good enough for me. I get it now.

The King James is also easy to read here.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
 
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BrotherJJ

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I don't know. But you post a bunch of the King Jive Version and my eyes glass over. Let's do it in English:

Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the  apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, 2 Thessalonians 2:3 (NASB)

Let no one deceive you in any way; for that day will not come unless the rebellion comes first and the lawless one is revealed, the one destined for destruction. 2 Thessalonians 2:3 (NRSV)

Yeah that's good enough for me. I get it now.

I cited 5 bible versions written pre KJV, NSAB & NRSV that translated departure not falling away.
 
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ewq1938

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I cited 8 bible versions written pre KJV, NSAB & NRSV that translated departure not falling away.


Departure from God to a false god is still a falling away. Have you not studied what Apostasia, Apostate, Apostasy mean?
 
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BrotherJJ

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Departure from God to a false god is still a falling away. Have you not studied what Apostasia, Apostate, Apostasy mean?

Not according to the Bible dictionary definition I cited. Here's 2 more:

Strong's Greek: 1841. ἔξοδος (exodos) -- a departure
Strong's Greek: 1841. ἔξοδος (exodos) -- a departureTranslate this page
Original Word: ἔξοδος, ου, ἡ. Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine. Transliteration: exodos. Phonetic Spelling: (ex'-od-os) Definition: a departure. Usage: (a) an exit, going out, departure …

Dictionary of New Testament Words
Departing, Departure

[ 1,,G359, analusis ]
an unloosing" (as of things woven), "a dissolving into separate parts" (Eng., "analysis"), is once used of "departure from life," 2 Timothy 4:6, where the metaphor is either nautical, from loosing from moorings (thus used in Greek poetry), or military, from breaking up an encampment; cp. kataluo in 2 Corinthians 5:1 (cp. DEPART, No. 16).

[ 2,,G867, aphixis ]
most frequently "an arrival" (akin to aphikneomas, See COME), also signifies a "departure" (apo, "from," hikneomai, "to come:" etymologically, to come far enough, reach; cp. hikanos, "sufficient"), the "departure" being regarded in relation to the end in view. Thus Paul speaks of his "departing," Acts 20:29.
 
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Gregorikos

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I cited 5 bible versions written pre KJV, NSAB & NRSV that translated departure not falling away.

Well pre-KJV means it's so old you can't necessarily trust the English to mean the same thing you think it means. That's the problem with those ancient versions. They'll mislead you.

But since the word is basically "apostasy" - this isn't difficult. Notice what it means in Acts 21:21.

ἀποστασία apostasia 2x a falling away, a rebellion, apostasy, Acts 21:21; 2 Thess. 2:3* (Mounce's Expository Dictionary)
 
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BrotherJJ

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The word "falling away" is apostasia from where we get the words Apostate and Apostasy. Obviously it means a moral and spiritual "departure" not a physical departure.

G646
ἀποστασία
apostasia
Thayer Definition:
1) a falling away, defection, apostasy
Part of Speech: noun feminine
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: feminine of the same as G647
Citing in TDNT: 1:513, 88
Total KJV occurrences: 2

The only other use of this word in the bible was people departing from the teachings of Moses. Neither use has anything to do with simply going somewhere physically.



Liddell & Scott


A defection, revolt, v.l. in D.H.7.1, J.Vit.10, Plu.Galb.1; esp. in religious sense, rebellion against God, apostasy, LXX Jo.22.22, 2 Ep.Th.2.3.
2 departure, disappearance, Olymp. in Mete.320.2.
3 distinguishing, c. gen., Elias in Cat.119.7.
4 distance, Archim.Aren.1.5.

2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

According to Liddell and Scott Greek, the word "apostasia" in 2Th 2:3 means, "revolt" especially "in religious sense, rebellion against God".

A second link is here:

LSJ

Thanks for your input. I cited 5 Bible translations PRE 1611 KJV that ALL say departure or departing not falling away.
 
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BrotherJJ

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Well pre-KJV means it's so old you can't necessarily trust the English to mean the same thing you think it means. That's the problem with those ancient versions. They'll mislead you.

But since the word is basically "apostasy" - this isn't difficult. Notice what it means in Acts 21:21.

ἀποστασία apostasia 2x a falling away, a rebellion, apostasy, Acts 21:21; 2 Thess. 2:3* (Mounce's Expository Dictionary)

I'll go with departure as the correct translation. You're free to agree with the versions that translate falling away. We disagree, no harm no foul. Best wishes, JJ
 
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Gregorikos

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I'll go with departure as the correct translation. You're free to agree with the versions that translate falling away. We disagree, no harm no foul. Best wishes, JJ

Well best wishes to you too. But you're looking at the wrong Greek word. God bless.
 
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He wants to defend pretribulationalism and say that a definitive biblical proof of it being pretribulation is there by claiming that 2 Thessalonians 2:3 is referring to the rapture, rather than apostasy, rebellion, falling away.

Thank you, I would never have figured that out on my own.
 
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Jamdoc

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I'll go with departure as the correct translation. You're free to agree with the versions that translate falling away. We disagree, no harm no foul. Best wishes, JJ

actually there is a major harm and major foul.
if departure is interpreted as a departure from faith, then those other translations mean the same thing and the meaning of God's word is preserved across all languages and all time.

If however, the original meaning of apostasia was meaning the rapture, then the translations using rebellion, falling away, apostasy, or revolt have now NOT preserved the meaning of God's word, and how can we trust the bible in our hands, as the inspired revelation of God, if the meaning of His word has been changed over time? This would be incredibly damaging, if you can't have faith in the word of God, how can you have faith in anything? It makes every promise God makes subject to skepticism, because while the bible says this, well what if it's just a bad translation?

No instead I'll say
Your interpretation is wrong, not the word of God.
You are using eisegesis to read your personal Eschatological belief INTO scripture, rather than reading the Word of God and forming your Eschatalogical belief based on God's Word.
 
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BrotherJJ

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actually there is a major harm and major foul.
if departure is interpreted as a departure from faith, then those other translations mean the same thing and the meaning of God's word is preserved across all languages and all time.

If however, the original meaning of apostasia was meaning the rapture, then the translations using rebellion, falling away, apostasy, or revolt have now NOT preserved the meaning of God's word, and how can we trust the bible in our hands, as the inspired revelation of God, if the meaning of His word has been changed over time? This would be incredibly damaging, if you can't have faith in the word of God, how can you have faith in anything? It makes every promise God makes subject to skepticism, because while the bible says this, well what if it's just a bad translation?

No instead I'll say
Your interpretation is wrong, not the word of God.
You are using eisegesis to read your personal Eschatological belief INTO scripture, rather than reading the Word of God and forming your Eschatalogical belief based on God's Word.

Thanks for you're input. Fact is we have 2 words translated differently by several different translators. I didn't write any of the versions I posted. I copied & pasted them directly from each bible version. Thes scripture is loaded with eschatological verses.

My notes are just that, my notes. A personal opinion & they add nothing to scripture.

We all have only our own beliefs to answer for. I'm prepared to answer for mine one day soon.

I believe in a coming rapture, many on here don't. That's why I chose the controversial Christian theology forum.

I respect your opinions & wish you all the best. JJ
 
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BrotherJJ

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Context solves the issue
2 Thessalonians 2:1 clarifies that what Paul is about to talk about, has to do with the rapture.
The fact that Paul equates the rapture to the coming of our Lord is important. The rapture IS a coming of Jesus you don't just disappear on a normal day just like that silently, the "silent rapture" idea.
1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 describes a noisy event and it describes Jesus descending from heaven.
The fact that in 2 Thessalonians 2:2 equates that coming down from heaven (into the clouds where we meet Him, so Jesus doesn't touch down on the mount of olives at this time), with the Day of Christ is also important. If you want to think of "the Day of Christ" as being different than "the Day of the Lord" okay fine, but if you equate them to be the same "Day" then it'd logically mean that the rapture happens and then is followed by the Day of the Lord and all of God's wrath. Not a gap between.
So what Paul teaches is Jesus comes in the clouds, rapture, then day of the Lord... unless you want to say the Day of Christ is different than the Day of the Lord to which I'll say, okay fine, Paul used a different term and it's making an assumption that they mean the same thing.
What you cannot do though, is say that 2 Thessalonians 2:1 and 2 Thessalonians 2:2 are talking about 2 separate, unconnected events. They have to be connected otherwise Paul wouldn't have said 2 Thessalonians 2:1
2 Thessalonians 2:3, makes 2 Thessalonians 2:1-2 conditional that is, they cannot happen until something else happens first.
So why would the rapture, be its own prerequisite condition?
It'd be like saying we're going on a trip, but we can't leave the airport until we arrive at our final destination. That's nonsensical.
Instead Paul tells us we're going on a trip, but can't leave the airport until our plane arrives at the gate and we've boarded.
Furthermore, in 2 Thessalonians 2:6-7 provides a prerequisite condition to one of the prerequisite conditions of the rapture.
What Paul has basically said, is that the rapture can't happen until there's a departing, and the antichrist arrives. Then he says the antichrist can't arrive until whoever is restraining him is taken out of the way.
First, the departure can't be the rapture itself, because like I said, an event can't be it's own prerequisite condition. So with that context, the departure has to be something else, that is why it is translated as falling away or apostasy or rebellion. It's a departure from faith, a departure from the church at the very least.
Second, most pretribulationalists assume that the restrainer is the church or holy spirit inside the church members. However, Paul already gave that the rapture can't take place until the antichrist is revealed. How then can the rapture be the prerequisite condition for the antichrist to be revealed? If the restrainer is the church/holy spirit, and the rapture is taking them out of the way so that antichrist rises, then Paul was in error for stating that the rapture has prerequisite conditions in 2 Thessalonians 2:1-3. The logic doesn't flow that the rapture is its own prerequisite condition fulfillment, or the fulfillment of one of its prerequisite condition's prerequisite conditions.
It's a multi dependency statement that Paul has made in 2 Thessalonians 2:1-7. He says A can't happen until B and C happen, then he says C can't happen until D happens. A can't be B, and A also can't be D.
So both B, and D, have to be different things.
B (the departure/apostasy/falling away/rebellion/revolt/apostasia) has to be a spiritual departure from faith.
D (the restrainer being moved out of the way) has to be someone other than the church/holy spirit, unless you believe that the Holy Spirit leaves the church before the rapture, which would be weird considering that Jesus will never leave us or forsake us.

So, who is the restrainer?
My theory is the Archangel Michael.
I say this because of Daniel 12:1, and Revelation 12:7-12
In both cases, Michael does something and then immediately following, is a time of troubles/Great Tribulations.
That's twice in the bible, in 2 "companion" prophetic books, that Michael is connected to the beginning of the Great Tribulations.
Not to mention, if Michael is able to cast Satan out of Heaven, then Michael is certainly capable of restraining Satan.

How can a verse copied & pasted from a bible be out of context? If you're referencing my notes/my opinions. How are they of any less value then yours?

I believe the Day of Christ & the Day of the Lord are different. Find my parsing here from 2018:
Day of the Lord vs Day of Christ

At the catching-up saints meet the Lord in the air (Thes 4). At the physical return, Christ's feet touch Mt Olive & his saints are with him (Zec 14).

The apostles believed Christ's return was imminent. Yet, here we are 2k yrs later still waiting. Having said that, 2k yrs weighed against eternity is less then a drop in a huge bucket. My point, why not a frame of time between the rapture & Jesus physical return?

Thes 2:3 the departing/catching-up comes 1st then man of sin is revealed.

Michael is a powerful warrior angel. However, not as powerful as God the Holy Spirit. Who dwells in believers, leaving no one indwelt left when the Holy Spirit removes the Body of Christ/Church.
 
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Gregorikos

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Thanks for you're input. Fact is we have 2 words translated differently by several different translators.

I just wonder where you're getting the second word, STRONGS NT 359: ἀνάλυσις ?

It looks to me like that word only occurs in one verse of the Bible, 2 Timothy 4:6.
For I am already being poured out as a drink offering, and the time of my departure G359 has come.

The word in 2 Thes 2:3 is STRONGS NT 646: ἀποστασία in every text I can find.

Let no G3361 one G5100 in any G3367 way G5158 deceive G1818 you, for it will not come unless G1437 G3361 the apostasy G646 comes G2064 first, G4413 and the man G444 of lawlessness G458 is revealed, G601 the son G5207 of destruction, G684

I'm not trying to give you a hard time, just wondering where you're getting your word.
 
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