The Day of the Lord is at Hand for all the Nations

eclipsenow said:

I think the language there shows how ridiculous it is to try and hide from God. Remember Job? He lamented that he couldn't hide from God. Remember Jonah in the whale? God was with him in the pit. You can't hide from God - what are you reducing God to - a surface level nuke?
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I mean, if the entire world's biodiversity were melted down after this event - what are the survivors - your play actors playing out the rest of your literalistic Revelation drama - even eating?

No, but as every other verse in the New testament says - when the Lord returns, it's the end of the world. It all comes down to getting your guidance from the clearer bits of scripture first, then the more metaphorical bits as a secondary guide. If any book in the bible has metaphors it's the one that makes Jesus out to look like this!

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As an Amil friend posted recently... it all happens when God returns!

Repeated Scripture locates the replacement of the current heavens and earth with the new heavens and earth and incorruption at the second coming. Job 14:12-14, Isaiah 13:9-11, Isaiah 34:1-4, 8, Isaiah 65:17-21, Isaiah 66:22-24, Joel 2:3, Joel 2:10-11, Malachi 4:1-3, Matthew 24:29-30, Matthew 24:35-44, Mark 13:24-26, Luke 21:25-27, Romans 8:18-23, 1 Corinthians 15:23-24, 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10, 2 Peter 3:10-13, Hebrews 1:10-12, Revelation 6:13-17, Revelation 16:15-20, Revelation 19:11-16 and Revelation 20:11-15 shows us that this occurs at the second coming. This is indeed the end of time, the end of corruption, the end of the wicked, the end of sin, the end of death, the end for the devil. It is the beginning of eternity. It is the beginning of perfection. It is the beginning of incorruption. It is the beginning of a new arrangement.​

The 6th seal is God returning. So why is there so much more of Revelation 'after' this event? Because it's a sermon, not a timetable, that at this point reminded us of our gospel hope. How does this sermon work? What's the outline?

As Bishop Paul Barnett explains, the 1000 years we are in (long period of time between Jesus resurrection and return) have the following cycles described all in parallel - along side each other - not to be read sequentially like some sort of future timeline.
HUMAN HISTORY: THE 1000 YEARS:-
Seven seals depicting TYRANNY (then the end and back to the beginning to describe)...
Seven trumpets depicting CHAOS in nature (then back to the beginning to describe)...
Seven signs depicting PERSECUTION (then back to the beginning to describe)...
Seven plagues depicting DESTRUCTION.
These episodes are concurrent, not consecutive.
https://www.amazon.com/Apocalypse-Now-Then-Revelation-Commentaries/dp/1875861416

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You have free will to believe and accept man's theology. You paint a fairly well dire picture of your own figurative imagination like the friendly amil poster you referenced.

I will stick with John and God's Word as written in Revelation and leave theology for the skeptics.

Timtofly said:

You have free will to believe and accept man's theology.

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So do you - and if you're not going to study God's word with all the resources of the last few thousand years of Christian thinking you know what you're doing? Creating your own theology - based on your own cognitive biases, and your own traditions and desires.

You paint a fairly well dire picture of your own figurative imagination like the friendly amil poster you referenced.

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Futurists are on their own high horse as they tell everyone off - even other futurists - and shout "Only I know the truth! Listen to ME! Me me me me me!" It's kind of sad how quickly this leads to cults like Jonestown or Waco, Texas - and sad how arrogant it makes the proponent sound.

Only THEY have understood God's word!
Only THEY have the end-times-table right!
Do I listen to YOU who claims to be the only one that can read the bible right?
Or do I listen to KERAS with his specific version?
Can't you see that you're doing exactly what the church has tried to do for 2000 years - only with more study and history and hermeneutics and academic excellence than you?

I will stick with John and God's Word as written in Revelation and leave theology for the skeptics.

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Skeptics? Dude - you futurists and all your failed 'prophecies' and 'timetables' that all come to naught are the ones that create skeptics.

Also, I note you haven't answered the main point? Where does your precious Return of the Lord happen in the actual Millennium verses? The thrones are the same thrones we saw earlier in Revelation as John's vision of the authorities in heaven ruling. The saints are martyred, and come to life in heaven. There's just no mention of Jesus returning to earth! You're making that bit up!


EVERY TIME the New Testament discusses the Return of the Lord it's either Judgement Day when the dead are raised and 'sorted' (saved or judged), OR it's the end of the world, OR it's the New Heavens and New Earth, or it's a mix of all 3.

While there was some futurism in the early church, their silly end-times 'prophecies' failed to come to pass. They were in trouble with the Roman empire and often carried out little terrorist attacks and committed crimes against the state. But St Augustine analysed all this and recognised what was there all along. Metaphor. Symbolism. A separation of the trials and tribulations in this 'city', and the triumph of the 'city of heaven'. The two cities. Amillennialism had come into church thinking, and would be the predominant safe harbour of theology for thousands of years.

eclipsenow said:

So do you - and if you're not going to study God's word with all the resources of the last few thousand years of Christian thinking you know what you're doing? Creating your own theology - based on your own cognitive biases, and your own traditions and desires.


Futurists are on their own high horse as they tell everyone off - even other futurists - and shout "Only I know the truth! Listen to ME! Me me me me me!" It's kind of sad how quickly this leads to cults like Jonestown or Waco, Texas - and sad how arrogant it makes the proponent sound.

Only THEY have understood God's word!
Only THEY have the end-times-table right!
Do I listen to YOU who claims to be the only one that can read the bible right?
Or do I listen to KERAS with his specific version?
Can't you see that you're doing exactly what the church has tried to do for 2000 years - only with more study and history and hermeneutics and academic excellence than you?
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Skeptics? Dude - you futurists and all your failed 'prophecies' and 'timetables' that all come to naught are the ones that create skeptics.

Also, I note you haven't answered the main point? Where does your precious Return of the Lord happen in the actual Millennium verses? The thrones are the same thrones we saw earlier in Revelation as John's vision of the authorities in heaven ruling. The saints are martyred, and come to life in heaven. There's just no mention of Jesus returning to earth! You're making that bit up!

4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.​

EVERY TIME the New Testament discusses the Return of the Lord it's either Judgement Day when the dead are raised and 'sorted' (saved or judged), OR it's the end of the world, OR it's the New Heavens and New Earth, or it's a mix of all 3.

While there was some futurism in the early church, their silly end-times 'prophecies' failed to come to pass. They were in trouble with the Roman empire and often carried out little terrorist attacks and committed crimes against the state. But St Augustine analysed all this and recognised what was there all along. Metaphor. Symbolism. A separation of the trials and tribulations in this 'city', and the triumph of the 'city of heaven'. The two cities. Amillennialism had come into church thinking, and would be the predominant safe harbour of theology for thousands of years.

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11 Next I saw heaven opened, and there before me was a white horse. Sitting on it was the one called Faithful and True, and it is in righteousness that he passes judgment and goes to battle.
12 His eyes were like a fiery flame, and on his head were many royal crowns. And he had a name written which no one knew but himself.
13 He was wearing a robe that had been soaked in blood, and the name by which he is called is, “THE WORD OF GOD.”
14 The armies of heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and pure, were following him on white horses.
15 And out of his mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down nations — “He will rule them with a staff of iron.” It is he who treads the winepress from which flows the wine of the furious rage of Adonai, God of heaven’s armies.
16 And on his robe and on his thigh he has a name written:

KING OF KINGS

AND

LORD OF LORDS.

17 Then I saw an angel standing in the sun, and he cried out in a loud voice to all the birds that fly about in mid-heaven, “Come, gather together for the great feast God is giving,
18 to eat the flesh of kings, the flesh of generals, the flesh of important men, the flesh of horses and their riders and the flesh of all kinds of people, free and slave, small and great!”
19 I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies gathered together to do battle with the rider of the horse and his army.
20 But the beast was taken captive, and with it the false prophet who, in its presence, had done the miracles which he had used to deceive those who had received the mark of the beast and those who had worshipped his image. The beast and the false prophet were both thrown alive into the lake of fire that burns with sulfur.
21 The rest were killed with the sword that goes out of the mouth of the rider on the horse, and all the birds gorged themselves on their flesh.
1 Next I saw an angel coming down from heaven, who had the key to the Abyss and a great chain in his hand.
2 He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the Devil and Satan [the Adversary], and chained him up for a thousand years.
3 He threw him into the Abyss, locked it and sealed it over him; so that he could not deceive the nations any more until the thousand years were over. After that, he has to be set free for a little while.
4 Then I saw thrones, and those seated on them received authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for testifying about Yeshua and proclaiming the Word of God, also those who had not worshipped the beast or its image and had not received the mark on their foreheads and on their hands. They came to life and ruled with the Messiah for a thousand years.
5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were over.) This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is anyone who has a part in the first resurrection; over him the second death has no power. On the contrary, they will be cohanim of God and of the Messiah, and they will rule with him for the thousand years.
7 When the thousand years are over, the Adversary will be set free from his prison.

Timtofly said:

11 Next I saw heaven opened, and there before me was a white horse. Sitting on it was the one called Faithful and True, and it is in righteousness that he passes judgment and goes to battle.
12 His eyes were like a fiery flame, and on his head were many royal crowns. And he had a name written which no one knew but himself.
13 He was wearing a robe that had been soaked in blood, and the name by which he is called is, “THE WORD OF GOD.”
14 The armies of heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and pure, were following him on white horses.
15 And out of his mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down nations — “He will rule them with a staff of iron.” It is he who treads the winepress from which flows the wine of the furious rage of Adonai, God of heaven’s armies.
16 And on his robe and on his thigh he has a name written:

KING OF KINGS

AND

LORD OF LORDS.

17 Then I saw an angel standing in the sun, and he cried out in a loud voice to all the birds that fly about in mid-heaven, “Come, gather together for the great feast God is giving,
18 to eat the flesh of kings, the flesh of generals, the flesh of important men, the flesh of horses and their riders and the flesh of all kinds of people, free and slave, small and great!”
19 I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies gathered together to do battle with the rider of the horse and his army.
20 But the beast was taken captive, and with it the false prophet who, in its presence, had done the miracles which he had used to deceive those who had received the mark of the beast and those who had worshipped his image. The beast and the false prophet were both thrown alive into the lake of fire that burns with sulfur.
21 The rest were killed with the sword that goes out of the mouth of the rider on the horse, and all the birds gorged themselves on their flesh.
1 Next I saw an angel coming down from heaven, who had the key to the Abyss and a great chain in his hand.
2 He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the Devil and Satan [the Adversary], and chained him up for a thousand years.
3 He threw him into the Abyss, locked it and sealed it over him; so that he could not deceive the nations any more until the thousand years were over. After that, he has to be set free for a little while.
4 Then I saw thrones, and those seated on them received authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for testifying about Yeshua and proclaiming the Word of God, also those who had not worshipped the beast or its image and had not received the mark on their foreheads and on their hands. They came to life and ruled with the Messiah for a thousand years.
5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were over.) This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is anyone who has a part in the first resurrection; over him the second death has no power. On the contrary, they will be cohanim of God and of the Messiah, and they will rule with him for the thousand years.
7 When the thousand years are over, the Adversary will be set free from his prison.

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I don't think you understand the question - try again!
See, I asked what made you think Jesus returned to RULE DURING the Millennium, but you sure know how to highlight verses that accompany his judgement at the end of the millennium.

eclipsenow said:

I don't think you understand the question - try again!
See, I asked what made you think Jesus returned to RULE DURING the Millennium, but you sure know how to highlight verses that accompany his judgement at the end of the millennium.

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Is not the end also during? You seem to be reading the verses in the wrong order. Start at the top of the post instead of the bottom?

What are you even talking about?
Prove to me that the Lord returns with the martyrs during the millennium. It's just not in the passage from 4-6 which actually describe the millennium. The stuff you're quoting happens AFTER the millennium - if we're to read this book literally. But if not, then you're an amil and just don't know it yet.

eclipsenow said:

What are you even talking about?
Prove to me that the Lord returns with the martyrs during the millennium. It's just not in the passage from 4-6 which actually describe the millennium. The stuff you're quoting happens AFTER the millennium - if we're to read this book literally. But if not, then you're an amil and just don't know it yet.

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If you read Revelations literally as the post gives John's message, Christ fights in the battle of Armageddon alone killing all on the battlefield. Then hours later, it is 6pm and getting dark, as the morning approaches, there are people sitting on thrones and Christ is still on the earth and His voice brings to life those harvested in the Trumpets and Thunders, and those beheaded for not worshipping Satan. Why does this resurrection happen? Why do you claim it cannot happen, after Christ just killed off all of humanity? It clearly says the rest of the dead have to wait 1000 years. Satan is bound at the battle of Armageddon. The FP and beast are cast into the Lake of Fire at the battle of Armageddon. There can only be a resurrection for Christ to now reign a thousand years as the text claims. Christ never leaves earth at the battle of Armageddon. Christ is the only ruler alive. Where does it say any other ruler rules with these people other than Christ?

"They came to life and ruled with the Messiah for a thousand years."

Only Christ standing on earth can call the dead, who hear His voice and come to life.

This is not the Cross. They would be alive today. They literally rule for 1000 years.

Who has covered up the history of 1030 AD when Christ ruling people who have lived in Jerusalem with Him for 1000 years? They covered up Satan's army of billions of humans (billions in 1030AD?), and the fire from heaven that consumed them?

If this is figurative or in heaven, how did fire from heaven consume billions in heaven?

Timtofly said:

If you read Revelations literally as the post gives John's message, Christ fights in the battle of Armageddon alone killing all on the battlefield. Then hours later, it is 6pm and getting dark, as the morning approaches, there are people sitting on thrones

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Ah, I see. What almost all theologians read as judgement day and the end of the world order - you split away! See, when the Lord comes back it IS judgement day and the end of this world order, the end of this universe, the dead are raised, the evil judged, friends of God saved, and we live for eternity. There's no more falling away, no more sadness, no more rebellions to come and no more war. At least, that's according to every other verse in the New Testament that talks about judgement day.

But you read Revelation literally - which makes it utterly incompatible with the rest of the New Testament! Whereas Amils see Revelation as being written to John's generation to warn them about what was coming under Roman persecution which:-

• makes sense of chapter 1 where John says he is writing to them, shares their tribulations, and wants them to obey him (which is impossible if most of the book is set 2000 years later)
• makes sense of how the church should read it in the 2000 years after as it's not just to them, but to us as well - just like 1 Corinthians was written to a specific church having specific problems but written for our benefit.
• means it isn't some silly end-times-table people can guess at and squabble over for all time
• means it IS a sermon of encouragement for Christians living in times of natural disaster and PANDEMIC (hello!), under persecuting governments, under times of peace and prosperity when people are tempted to trust in wealth and the might of the state (Babylon = Rome = worldly power instead of God's power), etc.

So we see Judgement Day in a number of chapters, and then John discusses a new theme and runs that theme up to Judgement Day again. It's concurrent, not consecutive. Thematic, not time-tables.

So we see Judgement Day and then John wants to remind us of what's happened to all the saints martyred. How are they doing? They're safe in heaven! It's that simple.

I hope you enjoy this article - it's relevant to figuring out the setting in Rev 20.

eclipsenow said:

Ah, I see. What almost all theologians read as judgement day and the end of the world order - you split away! See, when the Lord comes back it IS judgement day and the end of this world order, the end of this universe, the dead are raised, the evil judged, friends of God saved, and we live for eternity. There's no more falling away, no more sadness, no more rebellions to come and no more war. At least, that's according to every other verse in the New Testament that talks about judgement day.

But you read Revelation literally - which makes it utterly incompatible with the rest of the New Testament! Whereas Amils see Revelation as being written to John's generation to warn them about what was coming under Roman persecution which:-

• makes sense of chapter 1 where John says he is writing to them, shares their tribulations, and wants them to obey him (which is impossible if most of the book is set 2000 years later)
• makes sense of how the church should read it in the 2000 years after as it's not just to them, but to us as well - just like 1 Corinthians was written to a specific church having specific problems but written for our benefit.
• means it isn't some silly end-times-table people can guess at and squabble over for all time
• means it IS a sermon of encouragement for Christians living in times of natural disaster and PANDEMIC (hello!), under persecuting governments, under times of peace and prosperity when people are tempted to trust in wealth and the might of the state (Babylon = Rome = worldly power instead of God's power), etc.

So we see Judgement Day in a number of chapters, and then John discusses a new theme and runs that theme up to Judgement Day again. It's concurrent, not consecutive. Thematic, not time-tables.

So we see Judgement Day and then John wants to remind us of what's happened to all the saints martyred. How are they doing? They're safe in heaven! It's that simple.

I hope you enjoy this article - it's relevant to figuring out the setting in Rev 20.

“Thrones” in Revelation 20 and the Millennial Debate

John could hardly have been more explicit concerning the location, and therefore the nature, of the millennial rule of the saints when he said that he saw “thrones” (thronous). Where are these thrones upon which the saints sit, which is also to ask, what is the nature of their millennial rule? Let’s begin with several observations about the use of the word “throne” (thronos) in the book of Revelation.

The word thronos appears 62x in the New Testament, 47 of which are in the book of Revelation. Twice (Rev. 2:13; 13:2) it refers to Satan’s throne (being synonymous with his authority or power) and once to the throne of the beast (Rev. 16:10). On four occasions it refers to God’s throne on the new earth in consequence of its having come down from heaven (Rev. 21:3, 5; 22:1,3). In every other instance (40x) thronos refers to a throne in heaven, either that of God the Father, of Christ, of the 24 elders, etc.

Why, then, does the Premillennialist argue that anastasis (“resurrection”) must mean physical resurrection, although it occurs nowhere in Revelation outside chapter 20, but ignores thronos which never in Revelation refers to anything other than a heavenly throne (and that, in 40 texts!)?

Consider the use of thronos in the rest of the NT. Of the fifteen occurrences of thronos outside Revelation, seven are explicitly heavenly. In Luke 1:52 it refers figuratively to the power and authority of earthly rulers. In Col. 1:16 it refers to angelic (demonic?) beings. In Luke 1:32 the angel Gabriel refers to the “throne” of David on which the coming Messiah will sit in fulfillment of the divine promise, to which Peter makes explicit reference in Acts 2:30. In the verses which follow it is clear that Peter envisioned Christ’s resurrection and exaltation to have resulted in his enthronement at the right hand of the Father in fulfillment of Gabriel’s declaration.

There are four additional usages of thronos (Matt. 19:28 [twice]; 25:31; and Luke 22:30), each of which falls in the same category as Rev. 20:4. In other words, whether the “thrones” in these texts are earthly or heavenly is the very point that stands to be proven. Therefore, one cannot appeal to these passages in support of either view. Otherwise one would be guilty of begging the question.

In summary, when we look at all other relevant occurrences of thronos, whether inside or outside the book of Revelation, they are without exception heavenly. There is nothing to suggest that they pertain to a millennial earth, either in location or character.
JUSTIN TAYLOR | OCTOBER 7, 2009
"Thrones" in Revelation​

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I never said the thrones were physically on earth. They are visible from earth. Where they exactly are is not told. Those resurrected do not sit on these thrones. I thought that was understood? These souls are judged presumably by the church, those sitting on the thrones. Pre-judging (prejudice) seems to be what many posters here, are doing, claiming this never even happens.

I thought that you are claiming this is the church being resurrected and sitting on spiritual thrones as all amil claim this verse spiritually signifies? That is what the Cross represents kingdom wise.

Nope! Those resurrected are not sitting on the thrones. They are being judged and given a physical incorruptible body. Christ reigns on earth with these people, who can never die ever.

That does not contradict Jesus' promise that many will hear his voice and have eternal life. In fact Revelation 20:4 is the fulfillment of that promise. I guess amil do not agree with Jesus. Cause the only difference between them and John over Revelation 20 are those 6 times the simple number 1000 is found. Wow, it happens just as Jesus claims, but the rest of the dead get to wait, until Christ hands over the earth as complete and restored.

Why would Jesus offer up to God a burnt sacrifice?

25 For he has to rule until he puts all his enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy to be done away with will be death,
27 for “He put everything in subjection under his feet.” But when it says that “everything” has been subjected, obviously the word does not include God, who is himself the one subjecting everything to the Messiah.
28 Now when everything has been subjected to the Son, then he will subject himself to God, who subjected everything to him; so that God may be everything in everyone.

Where is burnt sacrifice found here? It says rule until the last enemy, Death.

That is Revelation 20. The rule to subject a perfect earth and a perfect people, up until the GWT. The reason Satan is loosed is to weed out even perfect people who may have thoughts detrimental to life in the NE. Even perfect people can think about rebellion. Satan, Eve, Adam to name a few.

What is with this burnt up earth ceasing to exist as a premature birth pang? Paul says this earth groans ready to give birth. Sorry but this creation does not dissappear in order to give birth. The baby is born and lives for 1000 years, then Death is defeated.

Timtofly said:

I never said the thrones were physically on earth.

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Then why are you disagreeing with me? Go back and check the posts up thread - you started this exchange.

They are visible from earth.

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Unless you're talking about John's particular vision and theme - that's unbiblical. The heavens open up when we see the Lord return, and as per the rest of the New Testament - that's Judgement Day.

Now you're splitting off viewing bits of heaven from Judgement Day?

Where they exactly are is not told.

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Yes it is - you are asserting this uncertainty in the face of the article I submitted which argues for certainty. They're in heaven - as are the "Millennial Saints".

Those resurrected do not sit on these thrones. I thought that was understood?

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So did I. But still they reign with Christ.

I thought that you are claiming this is the church being resurrected and sitting on spiritual thrones as all amil claim this verse spiritually signifies? That is what the Cross represents kingdom wise.

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Just that it's a picture of the safety of the saints who have died in Christ. That's all. The thrones are the same thrones we saw earlier in Revelation - in heaven.

Nope! Those resurrected are not sitting on the thrones.

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I don't know how I miscommunicated this - but if I did I apologise. But the martyred Christians DO reign with Christ for that 1000 years - did my use of the word 'reign' somehow convey they were sitting on the thrones? Sorry - the 24 elders sit on the thrones - but that's metaphorical anyway.

Amils are saying ALL of this happens in heaven.

They are being judged and given a physical incorruptible body. Christ reigns on earth with these people, who can never die ever.

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It doesn't say that here does it! You're reading the END OF THE WORLD from the previous chapter and then just making up a literal reign on earth when the saints came to life in heaven - they're still dead - they're spared HELL which is the second death. But this is the first resurrection! It's a picture of their safety.

That does not contradict Jesus' promise that many will hear his voice and have eternal life. In fact Revelation 20:4 is the fulfillment of that promise.

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You are twisting what I'm saying.
I'm saying the rest of the New Testament presents a SOLID argument that everything happens at once. The dead are ALL raised together, ALL judged at the SAME TIME, Jesus saves his people and the New Heavens and new earth all happens pretty much together. There's no part-resurrection into a part-heaven, part-hell where a whole bunch of Saints suddenly have to FALL to go fight the last battle with Satan. I mean, as if!

Go read the rest of the New Testament. Here are the key verses again! You are making Revelation disagree profoundly with all these verses.

eclipsenow said:

Then why are you disagreeing with me? Go back and check the posts up thread - you started this exchange.


Unless you're talking about John's particular vision and theme - that's unbiblical. The heavens open up when we see the Lord return, and as per the rest of the New Testament - that's Judgement Day.

Now you're splitting off viewing bits of heaven from Judgement Day?



Yes it is - you are asserting this uncertainty in the face of the article I submitted which argues for certainty. They're in heaven - as are the "Millennial Saints".


So did I. But still they reign with Christ.


Just that it's a picture of the safety of the saints who have died in Christ. That's all. The thrones are the same thrones we saw earlier in Revelation - in heaven.


I don't know how I miscommunicated this - but if I did I apologise. But the martyred Christians DO reign with Christ for that 1000 years - did my use of the word 'reign' somehow convey they were sitting on the thrones? Sorry - the 24 elders sit on the thrones - but that's metaphorical anyway.

Amils are saying ALL of this happens in heaven.

Rev 20
I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.​

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The battle of Armageddon is not in heaven.
The dead at the battle of Armageddon are not in heaven.
Christ at the battle of Armageddon is not in heaven.

The earth is not destroyed at the battle of Armageddon.
The Second Coming is not at the battle of Armageddon.
The 6th Seal is not the battle of Armageddon. The 6th Seal is the Second Coming.
Heaven becomes physical at the 6th Seal. The universe is destroyed because it never was a thing to begin with.
Humanity sees the spiritual as the original physical creation. They are both literal not different dimensions or realms. We are just spiritually blind. That is why heaven is dissolved. The blindness is gone.

eclipsenow said:

It doesn't say that here does it! You're reading the END OF THE WORLD from the previous chapter and then just making up a literal reign on earth when the saints came to life in heaven - they're still dead - they're spared HELL which is the second death. But this is the first resurrection! It's a picture of their safety.


You are twisting what I'm saying.
I'm saying the rest of the New Testament presents a SOLID argument that everything happens at once. The dead are ALL raised together, ALL judged at the SAME TIME, Jesus saves his people and the New Heavens and new earth all happens pretty much together. There's no part-resurrection into a part-heaven, part-hell where a whole bunch of Saints suddenly have to FALL to go fight the last battle with Satan. I mean, as if!

Go read the rest of the New Testament. Here are the key verses again! You are making Revelation disagree profoundly with all these verses.

Repeated Scripture locates the replacement of the current heavens and earth with the new heavens and earth and incorruption at the second coming. Job 14:12-14, Isaiah 13:9-11, Isaiah 34:1-4, 8, Isaiah 65:17-21, Isaiah 66:22-24, Joel 2:3, Joel 2:10-11, Malachi 4:1-3, Matthew 24:29-30, Matthew 24:35-44, Mark 13:24-26, Luke 21:25-27, Romans 8:18-23, 1 Corinthians 15:23-24, 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10, 2 Peter 3:10-13, Hebrews 1:10-12, Revelation 6:13-17, Revelation 16:15-20, Revelation 19:11-16 and Revelation 20:11-15 shows us that this occurs at the second coming. This is indeed the end of time, the end of corruption, the end of the wicked, the end of sin, the end of death, the end for the devil. It is the beginning of eternity. It is the beginning of perfection. It is the beginning of incorruption. It is the beginning of a new arrangement.​

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Revelation 19:15

15 And out of his mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down nations — “He will rule them with a staff of iron.”


Chapter 19 does not say END OF THE WORLD. You are just making that up to deny a 1000 year reign in Revelation 20. Christ is on earth for the battle of Armageddon not the destruction of a planet. Verse 15 points out He is coming to rule. Earth is not even a planet.

Take that as you may. I have already looked these verses up. If you want to comment on them individually and post them that is fine. Already done it in other threads and just posting references is not proof of anything.

The Lamb is going to come to earth at the 6th Seal and stay for more than 24 hours. So destroying His creation at that second is not part of the plan. Amil want each event to be the mirror and parallel view or claim the wrong chronology to get their theology to work. I am not here to defend some human's pre-mill theology or debate why pre-trib is better than post trib. Showing people Revelation just happens the way John naturally wrote it, not some way theologians think it should sound like.

The Seals, the Trumpets, and the Thunders have to be rightly divided. They are not the same series of events from different angles. God deals with 3 types of people and gives each type their own time, and judgment. The church existed from Abel to this moment. Nations, Jews, the nation of Israel, and Gentiles make up this group as individuals. They are complete, changed, and glorified at the Second Coming in the 6th Seal. Done, and in the Temple of God forever.

The Trumpets are the chosen seed of Jacob. How God deals with them is none of the church's business.

The Thunders are the Nations the harvest after the church and Israel has been taken away.

Revelation 20 is about any who are not in the church. Bad theology wants to view all as in the church or not. That only is true when it comes to the restoration of a son of God, glorified, and no longer about earth one iota. Except they live in the New Jerusalem which will one day return to earth.

Why anybody in the church is acting like the jealous older brother that God would forgive the prodigal Jew is beyond comprehension. When did the Gentiles ever leave the Father's house and return? That parable was not for the 1st century, it does not fit. It is the Nation of Israel who is the prodigal son, who returns very soon. Is the church that jealous that the nation of Israel gets to rule the earth for 1000 years? Why would they claim Israel's inherentence as their own over the last 1990 abominable years? Do posters here really not grasp what their eschatology represents?

What is the rush to destroy the earth immediately after the church is complete? The church did a bang up job pretending they did not even live here, nor needed to control their society. Oh, wait she did just the opposite, intermingled in every government she could get her hands on. Seems there are a few chapters in the last book of the Bible about this church. They are not as kind as the first 7 messages to 7 churches.

Then she denies the judgments of Revelation and claims them as her own judgment. Well perhaps if she is that dogmatic, she will be chanting with the 10 kings at Armageddon waiting for Christ to destroy them and the whole world in an instant? She really thinks the Jews do not deserve a thing?

What happened to Hebrews and this world is not my home, but I want to take all the credit for destroying the earth while I stayed here? Or at least the second I leave?

Timtofly said:

The battle of Armageddon is not in heaven.
The dead at the battle of Armageddon are not in heaven.
Christ at the battle of Armageddon is not in heaven.

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That's a different subject, and your other ones are all other mixed up timetables and junk.

The reality is the rest of the New Testament shows that when Jesus returns it all happens. Not bits and pieces. All of it. You want to split it up, and that's just wrong. Go read the verses my Amil friends and I have already highlighted for all Millennials of all types and persuasions - whether premil pretrib or posttrib postmil or prehokey or hokey pokey.

It all. Happens. Together.
So sayeth the rest of the bible.
Revelation is a metaphor with Jesus looking like this...

eclipsenow said:

That's a different subject, and your other ones are all other mixed up timetables and junk.

The reality is the rest of the New Testament shows that when Jesus returns it all happens. Not bits and pieces. All of it. You want to split it up, and that's just wrong. Go read the verses my Amil friends and I have already highlighted for all Millennials of all types and persuasions - whether premil pretrib or posttrib postmil or prehokey or hokey pokey.

It all. Happens. Together.
So sayeth the rest of the bible.
Revelation is a metaphor with Jesus looking like this...

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I agree even the 1000 years happens together with the Second Coming. The length does not matter, but it does not happen prior to the Second Coming. 1000 years and all of Revelation, all fits into your last Day.

You do not get to arbitrarily decide the length. When you do, you change God's Word into your private interpretation.

Scripture agrees with Scripture, not your own interpretation of what the intent is. It will all happen, just as Paul, Peter, the Gospels, and John wrote it. No need to piece together a conspiracy that some NT authors need to conform to your last days, eschatology. They did not conspire to point out your error. Why do you insist they wrote to your own specific understanding?

When Amil's read the rest of the New Testament we see that the Return of the Lord Jesus is Judgment Day. It means:-
* ALL the dead are raised
* ALL the dead are judged - some for eternal life, some for eternal punishment.
* It will be a surprise - utterly unpredictable. (Which does not work if the Lord has already reigned on earth for 1000 years in a literal millennium and then there's a rebellion and final judgement. It would be kind of obvious!)
* It happens instantaneously, not over a thousand years
* It ushers in a New Heavens and New Earth.
* It all happens together, and cannot be separated out into Pre-Trib PreMill or Post-Trip PreMill or PostMill or a dozen other timetables.
* It moves us from a world of corruption and entropy to perfection and eternity.
* There is only "this age" and "The age to come" not some in-between state.
Mt 12:32; Lk 18:30; 20:34-35; Eph 1:21

THIS AGE looks like this:-
“homes, brothers, sisters, mothers, children, and fields — and with them persecutions” (Mk 10:30); “The people of this age marry and are given in marriage” (Lk 20:34); the scholar, philosopher and such wisdom are of this age (1 Cor 1:20); secular and religious rulers dominate (1 Cor 2:6-8); “the god of this age [Satan] has blinded the minds of unbelievers” (2 Cor 4:4); this age is explicitly called “the present evil age” (Gal 1:4); ungodliness and worldly passions are typical of it (Titus 2:12). All of these qualities are temporal, and are certainly destined to pass away with the return of our Lord. “This age” is the age in which we live, and is the age in which we struggle as we long for the coming of Christ and the better things of the age to come.

THE AGE TO COME looks like this:-
it is characterized by eternal life (Mk 10:30; Lk 18:30); is also denoted as a time when there is no marriage or giving in marriage (Lk 20:35); and it is which is characterized by “life that is truly life” (I Tim 6:19). These qualities are all eternal, and are indicative of the state of affairs and quality of life after the return of Christ. In other words, these two ages, the present (“this age”) and the future (the “age to come”) stand in diametrical opposition to one another. One age is temporal; the other is eternal. One age is characterized by unbelief and ends in judgement; the other is the age of the faithful and is home to the redeemed. It is this conception of biblical history that dominates the New Testament.



THE RETURN OF THE LORD LOOKS LIKE THIS

MATTHEW 13
The harvest is the end of the age, and the harvesters are angels. 40 “As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age. 41 The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil. 42 They will throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Whoever has ears, let them hear.

MATTHEW 24:29-31
“Immediately after the distress of those days

“‘the sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
the stars will fall from the sky,
and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’

30 “Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory. 31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

MATTHEW 24:35-44
“But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. 37 As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 38 For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; 39 and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 40 Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left. 41 Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and the other left.

42 “Therefore keep watch, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come. 43 But understand this: If the owner of the house had known at what time of night the thief was coming, he would have kept watch and would not have let his house be broken into. 44 So you also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him.

45 “Who then is the faithful and wise servant, whom the master has put in charge of the servants in his household to give them their food at the proper time? 46 It will be good for that servant whose master finds him doing so when he returns. 47 Truly I tell you, he will put him in charge of all his possessions. 48 But suppose that servant is wicked and says to himself, ‘My master is staying away a long time,’ 49 and he then begins to beat his fellow servants and to eat and drink with drunkards. 50 The master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he is not aware of. 51 He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.


MARK 13:24-26
“But in those days, following that distress,

“‘the sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
25 the stars will fall from the sky,
and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’

26 “At that time people will see the Son of Man coming in clouds with great power and glory.


LUKE 21:25-27
25 “There will be signs in the sun, moon and stars. On the earth, nations will be in anguish and perplexity at the roaring and tossing of the sea. 26 People will faint from terror, apprehensive of what is coming on the world, for the heavenly bodies will be shaken. 27 At that time they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.

Jesus expressly states that he will raise believers up on the “last day” (Jn 6:39, 40, 44, 54; 11:24)

“There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; that very word which I spoke will condemn him at the last day” (John 12:48)

The return of Christ will occur “in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed” (1 Co. 15:52; cf. 1 Thess 4:16). Notice that there are no gaps of time indicated between the resurrection and the judgement. These texts collectively speak of the resurrection, the judgment, and the return of Christ as distinct aspects of but one event, occurring at precisely the same time (cf. Mt 25:31-46). Premillennialists, who often chide amillennialists for not taking the Bible “literally” and who champion what they call the “literal” interpretation of Scripture, must now insert a thousand-year gap between the Second Coming of Christ (and the resurrection) and the Final Judgment to make room for the supposed future millennial reign of Christ! And this, ironically, when the clear declarations of Scripture do not allow for such gaps.

IT ALL HAPPENS TOGETHER!
2 Thessalonians 1:7-10
and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels. 8 He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might 10 on the day he comes to be glorified in his holy people and to be marveled at among all those who have believed. This includes you, because you believed our testimony to you.

2 Peter 3:10-13
10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything done in it will be laid bare. 11 Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives 12 as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming. That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat. 13 But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, where righteousness dwells.

(Much of the material here adapted from the following source.)
A Present or Future Millennium? by Kim Riddlebarger

eclipsenow said:

ALL the dead are raised

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There is no reference given for this point, but a snide comment about "inserting" a thousand years in between, which John "does". Revelation 20 is the only Scripture given for the "resurrection" of the lost. Was John wrong in "inserting" these 1000 years and why did he?

Do you think the dead sinners are raised from sheol and changed from their sin and given a heavenly body in 1 Corinthians 15 or 1 Thessalonians 4?

Normally most interpret these passages as for believers only.

Revelation 20:4 according to amil cannot exist. It happened in 30AD. They separate this resurrection from the Second Coming by now 1990 years and counting. They literally inserted 990 more years in than John allegedly did. John only wrote 1000.

Timtofly said:

There is no reference given for this point, but a snide comment about "inserting" a thousand years in between, which John "does". Revelation 20 is the only Scripture given for the "resurrection" of the lost. Was John wrong in "inserting" these 1000 years and why did he?

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He didn't as the martyred saints 'came to life' in heaven. Rev 20's millennium verses are a picture of the saint's safety and security even if martyred. Where does ANY other verse in the rest of the New Testament say there will be a separate resurrection for the martyred Christians only? Answer? It doesn't.

Do you think the dead sinners are raised from sheol and changed from their sin and given a heavenly body in 1 Corinthians 15 or 1 Thessalonians 4?

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Ah, yes.
1 Cor 15 is interesting as it says "But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him." Not "Some of those who belong to him." Not "Those martyred saints will return with him to rule for 1000 years, then all other believers will rise on the last day." No. Simply all Christians will return with him! The passage of 1 Cor 15 is directed to believers and to be read as explaining what happens to all believers. So while other things ARE going on with unbelievers at the Return of the Lord - that's simply not the focus of this passage. How we Christians are to think of death is the focus.

Normally most interpret these passages as for believers only.

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That's because they are written to believers about the hope we believers have. But they focus on our hope for when the Lord returns - not the unbeliever's dread. The other verses I showed you above focus on how salvation for the believer happens at the same time as judgement of the unbeliever.


What happens to those left behind? This is not talking about some kind of mythical rapture where the Godly escape 'tribulations' - Noah's generation didn't go through 7 years of troubles. Instead, inescapable judgement came on them. They were wiped out - except those saved on the Ark.

Again 2 Thessalonians 1 shows how salvation and judgement happen at the same time as the Lord returns. This is just SO CLEAR!

eclipsenow said:

He didn't as the martyred saints 'came to life' in heaven. Rev 20's millennium verses are a picture of the saint's safety and security even if martyred. Where does ANY other verse in the rest of the New Testament say there will be a separate resurrection for the martyred Christians only? Answer? It doesn't.


Ah, yes.
1 Cor 15 is interesting as it says "But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him." Not "Some of those who belong to him." Not "Those martyred saints will return with him to rule for 1000 years, then all other believers will rise on the last day." No. Simply all Christians will return with him! The passage of 1 Cor 15 is directed to believers and to be read as explaining what happens to all believers. So while other things ARE going on with unbelievers at the Return of the Lord - that's simply not the focus of this passage. How we Christians are to think of death is the focus.

Now, brothers and sisters, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand. 2 By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain....​

...I declare to you, brothers and sisters, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54 When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.”​

That's because they are written to believers about the hope we believers have. But they focus on our hope for when the Lord returns - not the unbeliever's dread. The other verses I showed you above focus on how salvation for the believer happens at the same time as judgement of the unbeliever.

“But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. 37 As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 38 For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; 39 and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 40 Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left. 41 Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and the other left.​

What happens to those left behind? This is not talking about some kind of mythical rapture where the Godly escape 'tribulations' - Noah's generation didn't go through 7 years of troubles. Instead, inescapable judgement came on them. They were wiped out - except those saved on the Ark.

Again 2 Thessalonians 1 shows how salvation and judgement happen at the same time as the Lord returns. This is just SO CLEAR!

All this is evidence that God’s judgment is right, and as a result you will be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are suffering. 6 God is just: He will pay back trouble to those who trouble you 7 and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels. 8 He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might 10 on the day he comes to be glorified in his holy people and to be marveled at among all those who have believed. This includes you, because you believed our testimony to you.​

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So still nothing on dead people being raised who are not in Christ.

Revelation 20 is not even symbolic of heaven, much more so not literally in heaven. You fail to point out where Christ leaves earth at the battle of Armageddon. Is Armageddon in heaven?

Timtofly said:

So still nothing on dead people being raised who are not in Christ.

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RESURRECTION IS ON THE LAST DAY
JUDGEMENT IS ON THE LAST DAY

IT'S THE SAME AUTHOR - JOHN - DESCRIBING THE LAST DAY

John 6
39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day.

43 “Stop grumbling among yourselves,” Jesus answered. 44 “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day

John 12
47 “If anyone hears my words but does not keep them, I do not judge that person. For I did not come to judge the world, but to save the world. 48 There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; the very words I have spoken will condemn them at the last day.

This is what is happening in Matthew 25, when all the nations are before the GWT in Rev 20

IT ALL HAPPENS TOGETHER - compare the below. Different metaphors, same message.

(So the Millennium MUST be figurative!)


Matthew 25
“When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

REV 20
2 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.

eclipsenow said:

RESURRECTION IS ON THE LAST DAY
JUDGEMENT IS ON THE LAST DAY

IT'S THE SAME AUTHOR - JOHN - DESCRIBING THE LAST DAY

John 6
39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day.

43 “Stop grumbling among yourselves,” Jesus answered. 44 “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day

John 12
47 “If anyone hears my words but does not keep them, I do not judge that person. For I did not come to judge the world, but to save the world. 48 There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; the very words I have spoken will condemn them at the last day.

This is what is happening in Matthew 25, when all the nations are before the GWT in Rev 20

IT ALL HAPPENS TOGETHER - compare the below. Different metaphors, same message.

(So the Millennium MUST be figurative!)


Matthew 25
“When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

REV 20
2 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.

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Or the "last day" is figurative. 2 Peter 3:8

8 Moreover, dear friends, do not ignore this: with the Lord, one day is like a thousand years and a thousand years like one day.

Why do you keep ignoring Peter?