Universal reconciliation

jerry kelso

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agallagher,

1. Traditional view is based upon Revelation 20:12-15.
All the wicked are judged for their wicked ways and thrown in the lake of fire forever alive with wailing and gnashing of teeth and never die.

2. They will will be thrown into the lake of fire alive and will completely die.
The thought is within Revelation 12-15.
Also the thought is a loving God would not prolong such uncivilized horror or be so harsh.
3. Universal Reconciliation deals with purgatory till eventually they learn their lesson and God will save everyone from sin based on 2 Corinthians 5:19 about reconciling the world to himself not imputing their trespasses unto them.
Personally, I don’t believe in UR personally according to the contexts scriptures.
What do you believe and we can get into the scriptures about the whys of this subject. Jerry Kelso
 
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agallagher,

1. Traditional view is based upon Revelation 20:12-15.
All the wicked are judged for their wicked ways and thrown in the lake of fire forever alive with wailing and gnashing of teeth and never die.

2. They will will be thrown into the lake of fire alive and will completely die.
The thought is within Revelation 12-15.
Also the thought is a loving God would not prolong such uncivilized horror or be so harsh.
3. Universal Reconciliation deals with purgatory till eventually they learn their lesson and God will save everyone from sin based on 2 Corinthians 5:19 about reconciling the world to himself not imputing their trespasses unto them.
Personally, I don’t believe in UR personally according to the contexts scriptures.
What do you believe and we can get into the scriptures about the whys of this subject. Jerry Kelso
This one makes a strong argument for UR. @Agallagher (just one from my long list)

Romans 5:18-19
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people,
so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.
19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners,
so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.
 
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jerry kelso

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This one makes a strong argument for UR. @Agallagher (just one from my long list)

Romans 5:18-19
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people,
so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.
19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners,
so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

saintsteven,

1. Sorry, but this is not a strong argument.

2. Verse 18 says that sin came upon men because of one man, the first Adam.
Verse 19 says that eternal life comes upon men because of Christ finished work because he was without sin. This is the way to keep the correct context consistent.

3. Verse 19, by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners. We know many is really every man in reality.
The obedience of one shall many be made righteous. In reality, all men do not choose God and die in sin.
This is where purgatory and UR come in.

4. The love of God is great and includes eternal justice whether eternal life or eternal damnation.

5. So what do you believe about purgatory and UR? Jerry Kelso
 
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Saint Steven

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saintsteven,

1. Sorry, but this is not a strong argument.

2. Verse 18 says that sin came upon men because of one man, the first Adam.
Verse 19 says that eternal life comes upon men because of Christ finished work because he was without sin. This is the way to keep the correct context consistent.

3. Verse 19, by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners. We know many is really every man in reality.
The obedience of one shall many be made righteous. In reality, all men do not choose God and die in sin.
This is where purgatory and UR come in.

4. The love of God is great and includes eternal justice whether eternal life or eternal damnation.

5. So what do you believe about purgatory and UR? Jerry Kelso
I completely disagree.
Your comments come from a Damnationist perspective. You are forcing your dogma on the scripture. What it says is very plain. This is a comparative of equals. The just as/so also statements make this clear. Claiming that it just can't be so ignores the clear declaration of scripture.

Romans 5:18-19
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people,
so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.
19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners,
so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.
 
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jerry kelso

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I completely disagree.
Your comments come from a Damnationist perspective. You are forcing your dogma on the scripture. What it says is very plain. This is a comparative of equals. The just as/so also statements make this clear. Claiming that it just can't be so ignores the clear declaration of scripture.

Romans 5:18-19
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people,
so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.
19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners,
so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

saint steven,

1. You have a right to your opinion but you are not dealing with reality and proper context that will not agree with other scriptures.

2. 2 Corinthians 5:14-19;
Vs 14; For the love of Christ constrains this is; because we thus judge that if one died for all the all were dead.
Vs 15; And that he died for all, that they that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves but unto him which died for them and rose again.
Vs 16; Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we know him no more.
Vs17; Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature, Old things are passed away; behold all things are passed away, behold all things are become new.
Vs 18; And all things are of God who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation
Vs19; To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world to himself not imputing their trespasses unto them and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
If you take the plain statement that Christ reconciled the world which would have been at the cross, and not charge their sins all men would automatically had been saved past, present and future.
Then we would not have to be given the ministry of reconciliation as ambassadors for Christ.
The prayer is to be reconciled to God but not all come to repentance.

3. Proper context across the board in scripture you can not prove your point. You have to isolate scripture and the end result is pulling it out of context.
You went straight to Romans 5 without understanding the context of 2 Corinthians 5. That is improper hermeneutics.
A text without a context is just a pre-text. Jerry kelso
 
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Saint Steven

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1. You have a right to your opinion but you are not dealing with reality and proper context that will not agree with other scriptures.
Are you claiming that your scriptures are correct and mine are not? What you call "proper context" is only a doctrinal bias.
 
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Saint Steven

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3. Proper context across the board in scripture you can not prove your point. You have to isolate scripture and the end result is pulling it out of context.
Hogwash. You do the same thing.
Except for a few Damnationist passages the whole Bible supports UR. Didn't Jesus teach us to love our enemies? What are you claiming God will do with his enemies? (incinerate them) Is that loving his enemies? (not in the least)
 
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Saint Steven" said:
Hogwash. You do the same thing.
Except for a few Damnationist passages the whole Bible supports UR. Didn't Jesus teach us to love our enemies? What are you claiming God will do with his enemies? (incinerate them) Is that loving his enemies? (not in the least)

UR-ites claim context is "doctrinal bias" because, observing proper context proves them wrong every time.
You might want to look up "context" and understand why it is improper exegesis.
What does God do with His enemies? Try reading your Bible.
Psalms 110:1

[1] 1 A Psalm of David. The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.
[2] Matthew 22:44
44 The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool?
[3] Mark 12:36
36 For David himself said by the Holy Ghost, The LORD said to my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool.
[4] Luke 20:42-43
42 And David himself saith in the book of Psalms, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
43 Till I make thine enemies thy footstool.
[5] Luke 20:42-43
42 And David himself saith in the book of Psalms, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
43 Till I make thine enemies thy footstool.
[6] Acts 2:34-35
34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool.
[7] Hebrews 1:13
13 But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?
This must be very important it is repeated seven times in scripture.
Now I want someone to show me one verse where God, Himself, or Jesus, Himself, unequivocally says that those enemies will become faithful followers.
One verse, two or more would be better.
Here are some examples of out-of-context.
1. This has been the best play I've seen all year! Of course, it is the only play I've seen all year.
2. This was a fantastic movie, as long as you aren't looking for plot or character development.
.....In both of these reviews, you start out with an ironic observation which is followed by an explanation that communicates that the foregoing was meant to be taken ironically rather than literally. This can be a dangerous tactic for reviewers to employ because unscrupulous promoters can do this:
3. John Smith calls this "the best play I've seen all year!"
4. "...a fantastic movie..." - Sandy Jones, Daily Herald.
.....In both cases, passage of the original material has been taken out of context and thereby given a meaning that is exactly the opposite of what was intended. Because these passages are being used in the implicit argument that others should come to see the play or movie, they qualify as fallacies, in addition to just being unethical.
Quoting Out of Context Fallacy (Changing Meaning)

 
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jerry kelso

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Hogwash. You do the same thing.
Except for a few Damnationist passages the whole Bible supports UR. Didn't Jesus teach us to love our enemies? What are you claiming God will do with his enemies? (incinerate them) Is that loving his enemies? (not in the least)

saintsteven,

1. I am not doing the same thing.
You can’t just take one scripture and think it is the whole context.
What if I did that to you and misrepresented what you said and meant in the whole context which meant something else.

2. John 3:16 is a plain statement of fact about how much God loved us so much that he gave his only begotten son t save the world from sin.
However, if you go to 1 Corinthians 15:31 I die daily one cannot understand just by reading that one verse. One has to read the whole context. And then you can go to another scripture to backup that truth. Can you do that?

3. Damnationists passages don’t prove UR.

3. Loving enemies has a context. Matthew 5:43-44.
In the Old Testament the Amakelites were enemies of God and they had to be done away with less they defile Israel. Israel was not to mix with other nations because of evil customs. Satan always has a scene to thwart God’s redemptive plan.
In Jesus day the Jews hated the Romans and that is why they were supposed to be a peacemaker in order to be in Covenant with God. They had 28 insurrection against the Romans. Read the Sermon on the Mount.
Those evil oppressors needed God and that is why they needed to love their enemies. The love of God leadeth sinners to repentance.
We can hate sin in people but we must show love to them to be a witness to them.

4. At the same time God is a God of Justice and the wages of sins death Romans 6:23.
You are conflating the two. Jerry Kelso
 
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jerry kelso

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UR-ites claim context is "doctrinal bias" because, observing proper context proves them wrong every time.
You might want to look up "context" and understand why it is improper exegesis.
What does God do with His enemies? Try reading your Bible.
Psalms 110:1

[1] 1 A Psalm of David. The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.
[2] Matthew 22:44
44 The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool?
[3] Mark 12:36
36 For David himself said by the Holy Ghost, The LORD said to my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool.
[4] Luke 20:42-43
42 And David himself saith in the book of Psalms, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
43 Till I make thine enemies thy footstool.
[5] Luke 20:42-43
42 And David himself saith in the book of Psalms, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
43 Till I make thine enemies thy footstool.
[6] Acts 2:34-35
34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool.
[7] Hebrews 1:13
13 But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?
This must be very important it is repeated seven times in scripture.
Now I want someone to show me one verse where God, Himself, or Jesus, Himself, unequivocally says that those enemies will become faithful followers.
One verse, two or more would be better.
Here are some examples of out-of-context.

1. This has been the best play I've seen all year! Of course, it is the only play I've seen all year.
2. This was a fantastic movie, as long as you aren't looking for plot or character development.
.....In both of these reviews, you start out with an ironic observation which is followed by an explanation that communicates that the foregoing was meant to be taken ironically rather than literally. This can be a dangerous tactic for reviewers to employ because unscrupulous promoters can do this:
3. John Smith calls this "the best play I've seen all year!"
4. "...a fantastic movie..." - Sandy Jones, Daily Herald.
.....In both cases, passage of the original material has been taken out of context and thereby given a meaning that is exactly the opposite of what was intended. Because these passages are being used in the implicit argument that others should come to see the play or movie, they qualify as fallacies, in addition to just being unethical.
Quoting Out of Context Fallacy (Changing Meaning)



der alte,

1. Doctrinal bias can seem bias as explains a statement away.
However, even plain statements have a context.
Do you think you can tell me what Paul meant when he said “I die daily” by that one verse?

2. God will make his enemies his footstool. There is nothing that says those enemies would become faithful followers including Hebrews 1:13. You also haven’t proved that is the context for the phrase making his enemies footstool has nothing to do with making a faithful follower.

3. Out of context fallacy is incorrect on number one. That is a true statement upon the information they had seen.

4. Number 2 is just an opinion on plot and character development.
That has nothing to do with taking out of context and definitely no comparison to the scriptures.
Critics may be right in certain circumstances but they still give their professional opinion.
You have proved nothing.
The only way you can prove UR you have to change the meaning of words and whole passages and that is not representing God as God of love or try to prove purgatory. So far you have not proved at all especially scripturally. Jerry Kelso
 
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@Saint Steven Just the last chapter alone in revelation is enough of a stand point to see that all people are resurrected, only some are on the outside of the kingdom of heaven while some are on the inside.

The only thing that is I can not figure out will be if people can come from outside to inside, on the other side/ Echo Side (After Life).
 
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Saint Steven

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@Saint Steven Just the last chapter alone in revelation is enough of a stand point to see that all people are resurrected, only some are on the outside of the kingdom of heaven while some are on the inside.

The only thing that is I can not figure out will be if people can come from outside to inside, on the other side/ Echo Side (After Life).
At some point I see this happening.

Anyone who has knees to bow and a tongue to speak, in heaven and on earth and under the earth (in the realm of the dead), will whole-heartedly, and without reservation, acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord. (Philippians 2:10-11) No one can say that “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit. (1 Corinthians 12:3) If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” you will be saved. (Romans 10:9) Christ died and returned to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living. (Romans 14:9)
 
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jerry kelso

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At some point I see this happening.

Anyone who has knees to bow and a tongue to speak, in heaven and on earth and under the earth (in the realm of the dead), will whole-heartedly, and without reservation, acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord. (Philippians 2:10-11) No one can say that “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit. (1 Corinthians 12:3) If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” you will be saved. (Romans 10:9) Christ died and returned to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living. (Romans 14:9)

saintsteven,

1. Sorry, but that is contradictory with Revelation 20:12-15 and many other passages and these are not in context. Jerry Kelso
 
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Saint Steven

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saintsteven,

1. Sorry, but that is contradictory with Revelation 20:12-15 and many other passages and these are not in context. Jerry Kelso
Seriously? Bible versus Bible? Who will win? (who will lose?)

1) Does Rev.20:12-15 prove that every knee will NOT bow and every tongue will NOT acknowledge Jesus Christ as Lord? Thus contradicting Philippians 2:10-11.

2) Does Rev.20:12-15 prove that one can say that “Jesus is Lord,” without the Holy Spirit? Thus contradicting 1 Corinthians 12:3.

3) Does Rev.20:12-15 prove that if anyone declares with their mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” they will NOT be saved. Thus contradicting Romans 10:9.

4) Does Rev.20:12-15 prove that Christ did NOT die and return to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living? Thus contradicting Romans 14:9.

5) If you claim that passages contradict one another, which ones do you throw out? (mine, obviously)

Saint Steven said:
At some point I see this happening.

Anyone who has knees to bow and a tongue to speak, in heaven and on earth and under the earth (in the realm of the dead), will whole-heartedly, and without reservation, acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord. (Philippians 2:10-11) No one can say that “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit. (1 Corinthians 12:3) If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” you will be saved. (Romans 10:9) Christ died and returned to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living. (Romans 14:9)
 
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God is the Savior of all people, especially of those who believe.

1 Timothy 4:10
That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God,
who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe.
 
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Der Alte

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der alte,
1. Doctrinal bias can seem bias as explains a statement away.
However, even plain statements have a context.
Do you think you can tell me what Paul meant when he said “I die daily” by that one verse?
Since Paul continued to write scripture it is quite obvious that he did not literally die each day, therefore he must have been speaking figuratively.
2. God will make his enemies his footstool. There is nothing that says those enemies would become faithful followers including Hebrews 1:13. You also haven’t proved that is the context for the phrase making his enemies footstool has nothing to do with making a faithful follower.
When read in context it does address UR. Earlier in this thread a UR-ite used a verse "love your enemies." Then asked "What does God do to His enemies?" Implying that God loves them and does not destroy them. The 7 vss. I quoted show what God does to His enemies. They don't jump up and instantly love God.

3. Out of context fallacy is incorrect on number one. That is a true statement upon the information they had seen.
You evidently did not read it thoroughly. If a movie reviewer says,"The best movie I have seen this year." "But I have only seen one."
The average person would assume 'Best of many" If the second clause is omitted. Not the best of only one.

4. Number 2 is just an opinion on plot and character development.
That has nothing to do with taking out of context and definitely no comparison to the scriptures.
Yes it is an opinion on plot and character development. That was the point.. The average person reading a movie review will tend to rely on the opinion of a reviewer. Reading only "Fantastic movie" is a far cry from "Fantastic movie if you are not looking for plot or character development." Implying the movie did not have a good plot or character development.
Critics may be right in certain circumstances but they still give their professional opinion.
You have proved nothing.
I gave examples of out-of-context quotes showing St. S how such quotes give a false view of what is actually printed/said and is not restricted to doctrinal bias as he claimed. It exists in virtually every area of writing.
The only way you can prove UR you have to change the meaning of words and whole passages and that is not representing God as God of love or try to prove purgatory. So far you have not proved at all especially scripturally. Jerry Kelso
I was not specifically addressing UR. I was informing someone who said "out-of-context" was "doctrinal bias" that he did not know what he is talking about.
I was not specifically addressing UR. I was not trying to prove UR.
 
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jerry kelso

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Have you looked at the last chapter? @jerry kelso

Last chapter of Revelation 20 is about the Great White Throne Judgement.
The wicked dead will be resurrected Acts 24:15 and judged for their wicked works.
Death and hell are cast into their lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. There is no UR in there.
 
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Last chapter of Revelation 20 is about the Great White Throne Judgement.
The wicked dead will be resurrected Acts 24:15 and judged for their wicked works.
Death and hell are cast into their lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. There is no UR in there.
Here's a newsflash. There are 21 chapters in Revelation. (not 20) No UR in Revelation? Look at this.

Revelation 21:5
He who was seated on the throne said, “I am making everything new!” Then he said, “Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true.”
 
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Since Paul continued to write scripture it is quite obvious that he did not literally die each day, therefore he must have been speaking figuratively.

When read in context it does address UR. Earlier in this thread a UR-ite used a verse "love your enemies." Then asked "What does God do to His enemies?" Implying that God loves them and does not destroy them. The 7 vss. I quoted show what God does to His enemies. They don't jump up and instantly love God.


You evidently did not read it thoroughly. If a movie reviewer says,"The best movie I have seen this year." "But I have only seen one."
The average person would assume 'Best of many" If the second clause is omitted. Not the best of only one.


Yes it is an opinion on plot and character development. That was the point.. The average person reading a movie review will tend to rely on the opinion of a reviewer. Reading only "Fantastic movie" is a far cry from "Fantastic movie if you are not looking for plot or character development." Implying the movie did not have a good plot or character development.

I gave examples of out-of-context quotes showing St. S how such quotes give a false view of what is actually printed/said and is not restricted to doctrinal bias as he claimed. It exists in virtually every area of writing.

I was not specifically addressing UR. I was informing someone who said "out-of-context" was "doctrinal bias" that he did not know what he is talking about.
I was not specifically addressing UR. I was not trying to prove UR.

der alte,

1. I was asking if you knew what he meant specifically concerning correct context. This concerns with rightly dividing the word.
Can you tell me?

2. These Jews were Old Testament because they were before the cross. They were to be light of the world and salt of the earth Matthews 5:13-16. The Jews were to be respectful to the stranger at the gate.
Loving your enemies in that context is so that the Jews would be like the Father in Heaven Matthew 5:45.
This is to show agape love 1 Corinthians 13 to be a witness to the world.
Vs 45 also says he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good and sense the rain on the just and unjust.
It’s easy to love someone that loves you but another thing to love one that doesn’t love you. Even the Old Testament Jews had to treat others with respect to the stranger at the gate.
God loves all his creation but that doesn’t mean he overlooked their sin. Remember he brought a flood to kill all the antediluvian sinners.
It is no different after the cross.
We are to hate sin and call it out but we are also to love in order to be a witness to the world with the gospel.
There’s nothing about UR to this passage as some think.

3. One’s opinion on a movie review is just what he believes because he hasn’t seen anything else is not doctrinal bias for taking anything out of context.
Now you can parallel it with doctrinal bias because you are looking through your own lenses.
The difference is that one’s opinion of scripture may not line up with biblical hermeneutics. You could have an opinion after reading the scripture when you really don’t know at first but you’re opinion guessing could turn out right.
The movie reviewer could change his opinion after watching more movies. That doesn’t mean he took anything out of context at first.
Relying on the movie reviewer about what the movie is about can be paralleled with those who believe one’s opinion about scripture. We are to be like the Bereans to see what they say is true and Paul said to study to show yourself approved.
In one post it seems you said you didn’t believe scripturally that you didn’t believe in UR.
The loving your enemies passage you agreed in context it did prove UR.
If that is true then you are not following context in that passage.
Then you said you were trying to explain out of context. I may need some clarification. Thanks. Jerry Kelso
 
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