LDS Priesthoods Not Found In The Writings Of The Early Church Fathers

ViaCrucis

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Henry George Liddell, Robert Scott, A Greek-English Lexicon, μορφ-ή

An example provided for one of the various meanings applied to the word given comes to us from one of Euripides' plays, Ion, in which the chorus leader says,

"There are many misfortunes for many mortals, and their shapes are various. One could scarcely ever find one piece of good fortune in man's life."

That word "shapes" is the word μορφή, or it's plural anyway.

The meaning here means closer to "sort" or "kind"; the misfortunes of men are diverse, and come in many "shapes". That does not mean literal shapes, or literal forms; but rather a diversity of expression. Thus insisting that it can only mean a material, visible, external, form or shape ignores how the word itself gets used. And it ignores the vibrancy and nuances that exist in language as a general feature of language itself.

If I were to say, "Love comes in many shapes and sizes" does that mean that love is a material, tangible, physical thing with concrete, corporeal form that can be touched and seen? Of course not. You'd know exactly what I mean; that love can be expressed in many different ways, and that there are many different kinds of love.

When St. Paul says that Christ, though in the "form" of God did not exploit His Divinity, He means nothing other than that Christ before the Incarnation was Divine, it is the emptying of Himself in humility in the Incarnation that is being sung out in praise here. He who being God from all eternity, has become man.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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He is the way

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I'm sorry, is Hebrews 1:1-3 now Philippians 2:6? This is not what I asked for.

And the word used in Hebrews 1:3 is χαρακτὴρ, from which we get the English word 'character' (so it's different than what we've been discussing). I'm a bit surprised you'd like this one so much, though, as it touches upon a point of Trinitarian theology that is affirmed in the Creed that you guys hate so much in exactly this language: the word that is translated in verse three as 'person' is of course the Greek hypostaseos (ὑποστάσεως), more recognizable in English as hypostasis, which was included in the original Nicene Creed of 325 (before its revision and expansion to include belief in the divinity of the Holy Spirit, to fight against the heresy of the Pneumatomachi, in 381 at the Council of Constantinople) in the following clause:

[Τοὺς δὲ λέγοντας, Ἦν ποτε ὅτε οὐκ ἦν, καὶ Πρὶν γεννηθῆναι οὐκ ἦν, καὶ ὅτι Ἐξ οὐκ ὄντων εγένετο, ἢ Ἐξ ἑτέρας ὑποστάσεως ἢ οὐσίας φάσκοντας εἶναι, ἢ κτιστόν, ἢ τρεπτόν, ἢ ἀλλοιωτὸν τὸν Υἱὸν τοῦ Θεοῦ, τούτους ἀναθεματίζει ἡ ἁγία καθολικὴ καὶ ἀποστολικὴ ἐκκλησία].

[But those who say: 'There was a time when he was not;' and 'He was not before he was made;' and 'He was made out of nothing,' or 'He is of another substance' or 'essence,' or 'The Son of God is created,' or 'changeable,' or 'alterable'— they are condemned by the holy catholic and apostolic Church.]
Image, person, and shape are all about an entity. We will be in that form eventually:

(New Testament | 1 Corinthians 15:35 - 47)

35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?
36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:
37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:
38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.
39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.
40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.
 
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He is the way

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Hi Thanks for the reply, much information and thanks for sharing different ways of how we say we hear what our father in heaven is saying . Again I would offer God is not a man as us and neither is there any fleshly infallible umpire set between God who is Spirit not seen, and mankind seen called a daysman . Even Jesus when accused of being the one Good teaching Master as Lord (a fleshly daysman Job 9:33) denied not having any part in it. When a person bowed down to what the eyes see flesh and blood .Jesus gave glory to the father saying on God not sen is good . Good is his signature (let there be and it was good. The good and perfect seal confirming the labor of his love or work of his faith that does work in us with us who do have faith.

Mark 10:16-18 King James Version (KJV)16 And he took them up in his arms, put his hands upon them, and blessed them.And when he was gone forth into the way, there came one running, and kneeled to him, and asked him, Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life? And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.

The Son of man Jesus refused to stand in the holy unseen place of God as Good Master Lord. (the abomination of desolation) But rather gave glory to the unseen father . In that way only God is the Good teaching master).One is our teaching master. Christ in us. Emanuel God with us.

We understand who he is by the temporal things made. But again he is the Faithfull Creator not a creation natural (a beginning) But rather supernatural the Faithfull Creator of beginnings

Those who do try and make the Son of man into a god it would seem they bypass the wrath that is being revealed daily .A corrupted dying creation.

Note... (purple in parenthesis) below my added opinion to what i beleive the Holy Spirit is teaching.

Romans1;18-23 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, (they glorified his flesh) neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. (They imagined he was a man) Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, And changed the (unseen) glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man,(the Son of man Jesus) and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

Image is likeness. He created a community of two like a father and son. Humanity. Seeing God is not a man as us he has no DNA to give birth to a offspring. He is attributed as a father and Son to teach us of peace of God. Two working as one a loving authority with another a willing sufferer. The peace that comes from God's understanding as it is written . I would call it the government or gospel of peace, the peace he works in all Christians making our burden lighter giving us a living hope beyond our own hope .

Mankind is one creation to represent the work or ministry of two . Male he made mankind in his image. Mankind is one creation of flesh and bone the whole whole person not female formed after a bone . But of the same flesh and bone whole person . Not separate . Love as the marriage. I would think Gods Love working in us waiting for the promise (Hebrew 11:40)

Mankind as one creation. It fell and the glory of God departed exposing the nakedness' of mankind without the presence of the glory of God God is Light the very essence of His Spirit . Mankind now knowing they were naked literally seen by their differences, the eye witness. Their oneness or community was cut off the load was made greater the suffering increased the gospel gave them the direction to go as a light unto the path believers yoked with Christs t have their burden lighter For instance when two or three, a family a tribe, a nation of people gather together under the hearing of His faithful gospel as it is written he promises he is there working with them.

Man in our image . . . . imagine two are one? One is literally one. Not our image flesh, give birth to flesh But his spiritual unseen image


Genesis 1:26-27 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. So God created man (mankind) in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them

Male and female he made mankind the rest of the creation two separate creations . Men and woman as sons of God which we are, in the new order will literally be one new creation .Neither male nor female, Jew nor gentile.

Remember children are gift from the lord. Not a gift of a that which is born of the flesh lifeless (still born) ; But a gift which is born of the Spirit the life of the flesh.it has no life

John 3:3-7Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born? Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
Romans 1:18-23 is about man made idols such as the golden calf. It does not mean that God has no image.
 
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natitude

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With the death of the apostles, the surviving apostles didn't choose anyone to replace them. Instead the apostles ordained bishops to succeed them in shepherding the churches.

Regarding this commonly accepted notion you put forward, Francis Sullivan writes the following:

"No doubt proving that bishops were the successors of the apostles by divine institution would be easier if the New Testament clearly stated that before they died the apostles had appointed a single bishop to lead each of the churches they had founded. Likewise, it would have been very helpful had Clement, in writing to the Corinthians, said that the apostles had put one bishop in charge of each church and had arranged for a regular succession in that office. We would also be grateful to Ignatius of Antioch if he had spoken of himself not only as bishop, but as a successor to the apostles, and had explained how he understood that succession. Unfortunately, the documents available to us do not provide such help." (Sullivan, From Apostles to Bishops, pg 223)

With the exception of James, “the brother of the Lord,” the New Testament does not describe any one person as having been left in charge of a local church. (Sullivan, From Apostles to Bishops, pg. 217)


If there were a need for twelve living apostles, then Jesus and His Apostles did an exceptionally poor job, and there is precisely zero evidence in anything either the Lord or any of His Apostles said or did which would provide us with anything.

Jesus never does a poor job at anything.
 
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garee

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Romans 1:18-23 is about man made idols such as the golden calf. It does not mean that God has no image.

Hi thanks for sharing.

I would offer two things we must focus on if we are to rightly divide between the things not seen the eternal, and the thing seen the temporal .Therefore we can seek the approval of our invisible God that works in us and find the gospel understanding hidden from the lost (unredeemed temporal) .

I would think it is the purpose of the loving commandment that works in the believer. (study to show oneself approved to our unseen God who works in us with us. . Christians of many denominations are his master pieces. . the work of his hands as a will he performs in us. He is the Potter . Its easy to get it upside down and seek after a hierarchy government of men the temporal. we must be careful how we hear or say we do.

Just remember the opening for looking to the inside for hidden treasures of faith in clay vessels is "always on the top" looking down. The proper order of inspiration . not earthly inspired from mankind.

Two things

(1) the temporal things under the sun .( our temporal experiences)
(2) the eternal things with the Sun and Moon the temporal time keepers under our feet.

In that way the temporal corrupted dying things of this creation are winding down dying leading toward the last day when all will receive the promise of their new incorruptible bodies .

The bible describes the new creatures as neither male nor female, Jew nor gentile .But the eternal bride the church the wife of Christ. They will all. . . "male and female, Jew and gentile receive the wake up call and therefore are changed in the twinkling of the eye on the last day. Until then no one knows. And he does not reveal as something to wonder about.(a lying wonder) we must wait till the last day .

Pray he builds up the confidence in His children. . . working His patience and love in us. In that way we know if His Love is patient witnessed by being kind the kind of love that does not boast, but builds up.

God is not a man as us he has no beginning of days or end of temporal life as all of mankind to include the Son of man, Jesus .

A golden idol as an image is of any four-footed beast to include a calf That would fall under the understand the "temporal things" of this corrupted creation. things what the eye see .Any thing that has the essence of spirit life . This of course includes an image made like to corruptible flesh of the Son of man, Jesus who of his own flesh infallibly declared it profits for nothing. He lovingly commands mankind to not seek after the temporal things of the flesh. Some did know him through the work of the Spirit that worked in the flesh. Again not of the flesh. We have a loving commandant to follow after Him Not as we will but as our father working in us wills to work to both reveal and empower us to perform His good pleasure .

Jesus our example of doing the will of the unseen eternal father like in Philippians 2 below.

Philippians 2:13 -14 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. Do all things without murmurings and disputings:

Without murmuring for some time now seems to jump off the page .Who would murmur ? Who could turn Him? It is Christ who does make our hearts soft.

Following the example of Jesus who found it a delight to be strengthened with the work of the unseen father and not like Jonas who hated men and wanted to die rather than performing the work required . He knew God would forgive them many Ninevites entered the bosom of Abraham (the invisible presence of God) after hearing the gospel .

But we are to not look for the temporal corrupted flesh. It was a one time propmised demonstration of two working as one.

2 Corinthians 5:16 Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.

It only becomes a difficulty for those who who have a hierarchy of government where men venerate other men lord it over the non venerable pew sitters . .

When rightly diving the word of God one of the requirement is to apply the prescription tools needed to rightly divide.. Like the one I am offering below

2 Corinthians 4:18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.

Once the prescription is used then the invisible things of God can be understand as to why they were made to begin with .Which again is not to think of God as being a creature and not the Faithful Creator . As we are informed below they are without excuse.

(1)invisible things of God not seen the eternal

(2) things like mankind seen the temporal

Romans1:20-22 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, (the temporal )even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man,(the Son of man Jesus ) and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

In that way again anything that has the breath of spirit life to include golden field mice . which was an offering of those who have no faith the unseen eternal as it is written (sola scriptura) . . . . that understanding alone comes by hearing God who work in us through sola scriptura alone. And not from the lords of the mice and men (the temporal things seen) .

1 Samuel 6:4 Then said they, What shall be the trespass offering which we shall return to him? They answered, Five golden emerods, and five golden mice, according to the number of the lords of the Philistines: for one plague was on you all, and on your lords.
 
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garee

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Regarding this commonly accepted notion you put forward, Francis Sullivan writes the following:

"No doubt proving that bishops were the successors of the apostles by divine institution would be easier if the New Testament clearly stated that before they died the apostles had appointed a single bishop to lead each of the churches they had founded. Likewise, it would have been very helpful had Clement, in writing to the Corinthians, said that the apostles had put one bishop in charge of each church and had arranged for a regular succession in that office. We would also be grateful to Ignatius of Antioch if he had spoken of himself not only as bishop, but as a successor to the apostles, and had explained how he understood that succession. Unfortunately, the documents available to us do not provide such help." (Sullivan, From Apostles to Bishops, pg 223)

With the exception of James, “the brother of the Lord,” the New Testament does not describe any one person as having been left in charge of a local church. (Sullivan, From Apostles to Bishops, pg. 217)




Jesus never does a poor job at anything.

The problem with Francis Sullivan it would seem is he was not recognizing the authority of sola scriptura. . . all things written in the law and the prophets . If he did he might acknowledge the effects of it as it is written (sola scriptura )during the first century reformation. The pattern for any reformation restoring the unseen government of God's peace.

A picture of the father and Son working together as one God, one work of faith or labor of Love.

In effect the reformation God making desolate the abomination of desolation. Kings in Israel a hierarchy of venerable prideful men .God had given over to do that which they should not do set up a hierarchy of men to lord it over the non venerable like all the pagan kingdoms of this world for a temporal time period. A period used as a parable or figure using the temporal things seen to give us the unseen gospel understanding

The faithless Jews that served a law of the fathers, kings and princes. . (hierarchy of men) refused to beleive in a God as King not seen having become jealous, the lust of the eye of the surrounding pagan kingdoms that also had no faith that could pleases the invisible King.

Once the reformation becomes clear. . . the putting away of the abomination of desolation .Kings in Israel. Then other things come into place.

Like always, first things first. The foundation of; "let there be" The will and then or after the sign it was good. The good seal of approval. The matter as rudiments seen it was good. .

Note... (purple in parenthesis) my offer..
Hebrews 9 :8-10 The Holy Ghost this signifying,(a shadow) that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing: Which was a figure(parable) for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience; Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and "carnal ordinances", imposed on them "until" the time of reformation.

The time is still here we are in the last days. .
 
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dzheremi

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Regarding this commonly accepted notion you put forward, Francis Sullivan writes the following:

How many times are you going to appeal to this dork as though he's someone anybody has to listen to?

Does anyone remember St. Francis Sullivan's decisive role in the struggle against Marcion in the 140s? Or the Phrygians in the 170s? Or the Arians in the 4th century?

No? Yeah, me neither.

Jesus never does a poor job at anything.

Except for preserving His Church from the Great Apostasy, according to your religion!
 
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dzheremi

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Both "shape" and "form" can clearly be used interchangeably in either verse.

If that's the case, then you should be able to present any instance of Philippians 2:6 where it is translated "shape", instead of posting definitions from Strong's concordance as though that's what I asked for.

Since you apparently can't do that, I can only fall back on what I originally wrote: how it is and is not translated appears to be instructive. I don't care that two words can be taken to be synonymous in the abstract if they are never actually treated as such in the verse we're actually looking at. Our friend ViaCrucis already brought up some good examples and reasoning as to why they wouldn't be treated as synonymous in all cases, showing that there are in fact shades of meaning at play in word choice that make one translation a better or worse fit than another, just as there are reasons why one word is chosen over another in the original.
 
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natitude

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How many times are you going to appeal to this dork as though he's someone anybody has to listen to?

I'll appeal to it as many times as the topic comes up since it's solid scholarship. How many times are you going to deflect solid scholarship instead of face it head on?
 
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dzheremi

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I'll appeal to it as many times as the topic comes up since it's solid scholarship. How many times are you going to deflect solid scholarship instead of face it head on?

I already did the first time around. Who's deflecting from what? You don't have any period-appropriate evidence, and you mishandled what little you thought you did have (HH St. Ignatius), so you apparently have no choice but to go back to this poisoned well. It didn't work for you the first time, it's not going to work now, and it's not going to work the next time you probably bring this guy up, whether you call him 'solid scholarship' or not.
 
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natitude

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First of all, Merry Christmas!! Second, I appreciate the linguistic tidbit.

Henry George Liddell, Robert Scott, A Greek-English Lexicon, μορφ-ή

An example provided for one of the various meanings applied to the word given comes to us from one of Euripides' plays, Ion, in which the chorus leader says,

"There are many misfortunes for many mortals, and their shapes are various. One could scarcely ever find one piece of good fortune in man's life."

That word "shapes" is the word μορφή, or it's plural anyway.

The meaning here means closer to "sort" or "kind"; the misfortunes of men are diverse, and come in many "shapes". That does not mean literal shapes, or literal forms; but rather a diversity of expression. Thus insisting that it can only mean a material, visible, external, form or shape ignores how the word itself gets used. And it ignores the vibrancy and nuances that exist in language as a general feature of language itself.

It seems to me that in general, you are offering another possible reading, but not rejecting the reading I gave. Is that correct?

Let me just share other examples of how μορφη is used anciently found here. (Old Testament verses would be from the LXX, of course.)

Mark 16:12 After that he appeared in another form (μορφη) unto two of them, as they walked, and went into the country.

Judges 8:18 Then he said to Zebah and Zalmuma, "What about the men whom you killed at Tabor?" They answered, "As you are, so were they, every one of them; they resembled (μορφη) the sons of a king."

Job 4:16 It stood still, but I could not discern its appearance. A form (μορφη) was before my eyes; there was silence, then I heard a voice.

Daniel 3:19 Then was Nebuchadnezzar full of fury, and the form (μορφη) of his visage was changed against Shadrash, Meshach, and Abednego: therefore he spake, and commanded that they should heat the furnace one seven times more than it was wont to be heated.

Testament of Benjamin 10:7 Then will we also rise, each one over our tribe, worshipping the King of heaven, who appeared on earth in the form (μορφη) of a man in humility. And as many as believe on Him on the earth will rejoice with Him.



When St. Paul says that Christ, though in the "form" of God did not exploit His Divinity, He means nothing other than that Christ before the Incarnation was Divine, it is the emptying of Himself in humility in the Incarnation that is being sung out in praise here. He who being God from all eternity, has become man.

-CryptoLutheran

I seems to that this means that both Christ and the Father had a form or shape before Christ's mortal life. I don't see this a referring to various attributes of divinity (kind, loving, all-wise, etc.)
 
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ViaCrucis

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Jesus never does a poor job at anything.

Agreed. Which is why claims of some grand apostasy and the need to "restore" the church is obvious balderdash.

Christ keeps His word.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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ViaCrucis

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First of all, Merry Christmas!! Second, I appreciate the linguistic tidbit.



It seems to me that in general, you are offering another possible reading, but not rejecting the reading I gave. Is that correct?

Let me just share other examples of how μορφη is used anciently found here. (Old Testament verses would be from the LXX, of course.)

Mark 16:12 After that he appeared in another form (μορφη) unto two of them, as they walked, and went into the country.

Judges 8:18 Then he said to Zebah and Zalmuma, "What about the men whom you killed at Tabor?" They answered, "As you are, so were they, every one of them; they resembled (μορφη) the sons of a king."

Job 4:16 It stood still, but I could not discern its appearance. A form (μορφη) was before my eyes; there was silence, then I heard a voice.

Daniel 3:19 Then was Nebuchadnezzar full of fury, and the form (μορφη) of his visage was changed against Shadrash, Meshach, and Abednego: therefore he spake, and commanded that they should heat the furnace one seven times more than it was wont to be heated.

Testament of Benjamin 10:7 Then will we also rise, each one over our tribe, worshipping the King of heaven, who appeared on earth in the form (μορφη) of a man in humility. And as many as believe on Him on the earth will rejoice with Him.





I seems to that this means that both Christ and the Father had a form or shape before Christ's mortal life. I don't see this a referring to various attributes of divinity (kind, loving, all-wise, etc.)

Seeing as God has no shape or form, and such is abundantly clear in how Scripture speaks of God as invisible, unseeable, etc; then the only meaningful interpretation is one which understands that Christ being "in the form of God" does not mean that Jesus has a divine physical appearance (since that is a nonsense concept) but that Jesus is God. Jesus, being God, has always existed as God; in the Incarnation He becomes human, and takes on the "form" of a slave.

Paul, a Jew, would not be so ignorant as to think that the Eternal has physicality, corporeality, etc. God is everywhere, through everything, filling all things, invisible, unapproachable, etc. Exactly things the Apostle himself says on multiple occasions concerning God.

And thus the "form" of God is the kind of existence God has as God, it means simply that Christ was God, as God is. As the Eternal and Uncreated Logos who has always existed, He is God, and exists as God.

There is no valid alternative interpretive model here that doesn't make a total mockery of the text and the entire substance of Abrahamic monotheism.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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dzheremi

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Are there any ECF writings that list the current 12 Apostles of that writer's day? That would cause quite a stir.

This is a nonsense question that assumes that Mormonism's leadership structure actually reflects something that was present in the early Church, which is not the case. The apostles had long departed by the time of the Early Church Fathers.

It actually does. The definition of successor is "someone or something that follows and takes the job, place, or position that was held by another".

The problem with confusing this with equivalence (the word I actually used) is that it can eventually lead to the kind of ecclesiology that the modern RCC espouses, wherein the bishop is to equated with St. Peter for ever and ever throughout the universe, exclusively in Rome and not in Antioch (hence being "in communion with St. Peter" in their world is accomplished when you submit to Rome in particular; being Antiochian Greek or Syriac Orthodox is not good enough), with all of the prerogatives they say this affords them which literally no one else agrees with. (The bit about HH St. Evodius would be more a matter of deference to those who come before us than denial of the very real pattern of succession established there, in a manner analogous to how the canons of Nicaea referred to preexisting tradition concerning Rome, Alexandria, and Antioch, or even how saint's Vitas were often composed by their disciples and featured such laudatory language, even when those disciples went on to far exceed their spiritual fathers in terms of clerical rank, as was the case with regard to HH St. Athanasius, the disciple of St. Anthony.)


An Apostle replaces an Apostle, a Bishop replaces a Bishop, and so forth.

'Apostle' is not and has never been a rank within the Church no matter how much your fidelity to Mormonism makes you think it is.

I'm quoting this to show he believed he was a Bishop and didn't believe he held the higher authority of an Apostle

Again, 'Apostle' was never a rank in the first place. The fact that the Apostles would replace Judas with Matthias after the former's betrayal of Christ and subsequent suicide shows us that they had such a mechanism in place if they wanted to (in essence) 'elevate' new apostles, and yet that was the one time that we have record of that happening. No new apostles were elevated in Rome, Alexandria, Antioch, India, Armenia, Mesopotamia or any other place where the apostles themselves travelled -- only bishops. If I were a Mormon, I'd be wondering why that is, since these are the very places where the same apostles and disciples written of in the scriptures traveled and established the Church in fulfillment of the Great Commission.

No, it's meant to remind the local Christians that there is a higher office than Bishop and that he's not suited to address some of their concerns.

Nope. That's your Mormon mangling of the source material. Such a thing is nowhere even hinted at anywhere outside of your own brain.

Well, there you go!

Yeah, because again, apostle was never some kind of office or rank!

Ephesians 4:11, 13 (KJV)
11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith,

Paul clearly states that the organization of the 12 Apostles should remain from ancient times continuously until "we all come in the unity of the faith".

Let's read on, shall we?

11 And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers, 12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ, 13 till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ; 14 that we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting, 15 but, speaking the truth in love, may grow up in all things into Him who is the head—Christ— 16 from whom the whole body, joined and knit together by what every joint supplies, according to the effective working by which every part does its share, causes growth of the body for the edifying of itself in love.

+++

For what shall we come to the unity of the faith and the knowledge of the Son of God? "That we should no longer be children, tossed to an fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting."

This description of what we are to avoid by maintaining unity sounds like the closest thing we're ever going to find to a description of Mormonism in the Bible itself.

Since there currently isn't a unity of faith on the Earth (as evidenced by this forum and elsewhere)

Check this very website's Statement of Faith, which is the Nicene-Constantinopolitan Creed of 381 with some allowance for the later filioque clause (sensible, or else Catholics and many Protestants couldn't post here). All Christians are unified in their affirmation of the basic outline of the Christian faith contained therein.

So you're quite simply wrong in this assertion that there is no unity of faith on the Earth. At a deeper level (that is, beyond the basic outline as given in the Creed), there is unity of faith in the particular communions which make up the lion's share of Christianity: Catholic with Catholic, Eastern Orthodox with Eastern Orthodox, and Oriental Orthodox with Oriental Orthodox. Some of the more traditional Protestants also form communions in their own right, such that one can speak of 'the Anglican communion'.

there ought to still be a single organization of 12 Apostles of the Lord Jesus Christ on the Earth.

Because establishing a parasitic pseudo-church is what's going to get us unity on Earth? Please. I'd rather unify around favorite flavor of bagel or something. At least joining up on that won't risk anyone's soul.

Even better would be no one attempting to squelch debate... on a debate forum.

I'm not trying to squelch anything. I've just been here long enough to know that Mormons are woefully underequipped to be handling the writings of the fathers, since they're the fathers of Christianity, not Mormonism, and I've literally never interacted with a Mormon who read them for their own sake in order to learn, rather than attempting to force them into some preexisting Mormon paradigm that didn't even exist in their day.

Its formative period was during the ministry of Christ and the Apostles.

No it wasn't, and everything after the sentence I'm responding to now is just more of you reading your religion into the Christian past, where it is nowhere to be found.

And that's why in the earliest post-Apostolic writes

You reference St. John Chrysostom among them here. He departed in 407, long after the first two ecumenical councils which established for us the Creed which Mormons have been trying to tell me for years is practically exhibit A of the supposed 'apostasy' of Christianity. He himself was a strong believer in Nicene Christianity and an exponent of Orthodox Trinitarian theology. How on earth such a person who is anathema in every conceivable way to Mormonism on those theological matters which most clearly separate it from Christianity can be made into a supporter of Mormonism is beyond me...unless of course you don't care about who any of these figures are or what they have to say but that you think you can use them to buttress your fake and false religion in its horrid and blasphemous claims against Christianity.

And there are exactly 0 distinctly Trinitarian references in any edition of the Book of Mormon, as is the case with the Bible.

Then I'll invite you to go to the afterlife and debate this matter with independent LDS researcher and Mormon Boyd Kirkland, who paints the theology of JS as being expressed using "Trinitarian but nonbiblical" phraseology in various parts of the BOM in his essay on the development of the Mormon doctrine of God in the anthology Line Upon Line.
 
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ViaCrucis

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Regarding this commonly accepted notion you put forward, Francis Sullivan writes the following:

"No doubt proving that bishops were the successors of the apostles by divine institution would be easier if the New Testament clearly stated that before they died the apostles had appointed a single bishop to lead each of the churches they had founded. Likewise, it would have been very helpful had Clement, in writing to the Corinthians, said that the apostles had put one bishop in charge of each church and had arranged for a regular succession in that office. We would also be grateful to Ignatius of Antioch if he had spoken of himself not only as bishop, but as a successor to the apostles, and had explained how he understood that succession. Unfortunately, the documents available to us do not provide such help." (Sullivan, From Apostles to Bishops, pg 223)

With the exception of James, “the brother of the Lord,” the New Testament does not describe any one person as having been left in charge of a local church. (Sullivan, From Apostles to Bishops, pg. 217)




Jesus never does a poor job at anything.

I don't know who Francis Sullivan is or why I should take him as the authority on this subject; especially when we have the primary ancient historical sources of Christian antiquity which clearly say otherwise.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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garee

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I don't know who Francis Sullivan is or why I should take him as the authority on this subject; especially when we have the primary ancient historical sources of Christian antiquity which clearly say otherwise.

-CryptoLutheran

We are freely given the word of God. . all things written in the law and prophets (sola scriptura) The exclusive reforming authority, as it is written, in any generation or time period .It warns us of the abomnonation of desolation .A hierarchy of venerable men that lord it over the faith of the non vereable pew sitter. Standing in the place of faith the unseen eternal workings of God.

Three times in Mathew 4 The father gave Jesus who as a apostle came to do the will of the unseen father. gave Jesus words to rebuke the father of lies three times (as it is written) its caused the the spirit of lies to flee having strengthen Jesus the Son of man to finish that work working with the father.

The first century reformation is still doing its work of restoring the government of God (the father and Son working as one redeemer) it reformed again in the 15th century a carbon copy of the first century .reformation .Freeing those under a law of the fathers oral traditions of men (a hierarchy of sinful corrupted mankind )
 
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natitude

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'Apostle' is not and has never been a rank within the Church no matter how much your fidelity to Mormonism makes you think it is.

Again, 'Apostle' was never a rank in the first place.

Yeah, because again, apostle was never some kind of office or rank!

In the Roman Catholic Church, 'Apostle' is considered an office and the Twelve formed an 'Apostolate' per the New Advent entry of Apostles. I'm fairly certain that Eastern Orthodoxy views Apostles in a similar fashion. I'd be interested to know how Coptic Orthodox view Apostles given your POV.


Then I'll invite you to go to the afterlife and debate this matter with independent LDS researcher and Mormon Boyd Kirkland, who paints the theology of JS as being expressed using "Trinitarian but nonbiblical" phraseology in various parts of the BOM in his essay on the development of the Mormon doctrine of God in the anthology Line Upon Line.

This really makes your case well! In the link you provide, Brother Boyd specifically says "Although Book of Mormon modalistic theology does not reflect a truly orthodox trinitarian view..." :doh: (BTW, The Book of Mormon does not teach modalism either.)

For the record, this is my limited understanding of the doctrine of the Trinity.

1. There is one God numerically.
2. The Father is God.
3. The Son is God.
4. The Holy Spirit is God.
5. The three Divine Persons have existed co-eternally and co-equally.
6. The Father is not the Son.
7. The Father is not the Holy Spirit.
8. The Son is not the Holy Spirit.
9. The Son is fully human and fully divine (hypostatic union)
10. Both natures of the Son have a will.
11. The wills of the Son’s human nature and the Son’s divine nature are identical.
12. The Father and the Holy Spirit are composed solely of an immaterial essence referred to as spirit
 
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natitude

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The problem with Francis Sullivan it would seem is he was not recognizing the authority of sola scriptura. . . all things written in the law and the prophets.

You are probably correct. Catholics accept as authoritative both the Bible and something they refer to as "Sacred Tradition", which would include oral teachings of the Apostles passed on, but not necessarily written down.
 
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dzheremi

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In the Roman Catholic Church, 'Apostle' is considered an office and the Twelve formed an 'Apostolate' per the New Advent entry of Apostles. I'm fairly certain that Eastern Orthodoxy views Apostles in a similar fashion. I'd be interested to know how Coptic Orthodox view Apostles given your POV.

You are misunderstanding their use of this term. In Roman Catholicism (can't speak for Eastern Orthodoxy, as I have never been Eastern Orthodox), they have things like a 'lay apostolate' precisely because there are unconsecrated laypeople who engage in various ministries, operating them under the oversight of pastors or bishops. Hence they might term a particular ministry an "Apostolate for Family Consecration" (with the goal being to strengthen the faith of Catholic family) or some such. This does not mean that whoever runs this 'family mission' is in the line of bishops stretching back to St. Peter or whoever -- that claim to apostolic succession concerns an unbroken line of bishops, since bishop, unlike apostle, is an office in the Church.

I mean, really, you need only look how 'Apostle' was never established as an office in any historical Church (Catholic, Orthodox, high-church Protestants like Anglicans, etc.) to see that your view is not supported by what actually goes on in reality. The take-away point is that the 'apostolate' refers in a very general sense (as pointed out in the New Advent article) to those sent out on a mission, so in that matter they are akin to the apostles who were likewise sent, but are not considered to be in the line of bishops who are the direct successors to the apostles (as recognized by the very churches you are citing). Were it otherwise, the RCC would have likely thousands of 'apostles' cluttering up the administrative levels of the Church, and RC ecclesiology definitely does not allow for so many pretenders to the Papal throne.

This really makes your case well! In the link you provide, Brother Boyd specifically says "Although Book of Mormon modalistic theology does not reflect a truly orthodox trinitarian view..." :doh: (BTW, The Book of Mormon does not teach modalism either.)

Of course it's not orthodox! I never claimed that it was, nor would I ever claim so. JS was an abject heretic. The point is that it is a kind of trintarianism. It is warped relative to the Nicene, orthodox view, but it's still there in certain passages and certain respects, again according to Mormon researchers. It was with time that it evolved away from even that to the polytheism/henotheism that Mormons more often express now (at least around here; your coreligionist Peter1000 has wrongly stated on several occasions that the Bible supports polytheism and so there's nothing wrong with being a polytheist).

I'll leave your understanding of the Holy Trinity alone as this is not the topic, and frankly reading it is giving me bad flashbacks to hundreds of posts more or less wasted trying to get our resident Mormons who precede you to understand the basics of Christian theology in this matter.
 
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