Understanding "the beginning" and "the end"

Christian Gedge

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The Coming of the Son of Man

Luk 21:25  "And there will be signs in the sun, in the moon, and in the stars; and on the earth distress of nations, with perplexity, the sea and the waves roaring; 
I’m glad Berean quotes this verse and I would like to hear a Preterist explanation of the last half - ‘the sea and waves roaring.’ Was there any unusual tidal activity during the 70 AD period? It is only mentioned in Luke’s gospel and seems to suggest the moon’s influence over the tides.

How do you see it? If a non-literal interpretation is how we should understand it, could you include the tidal picture in your figurative explanation? Partial Preterists please.
 
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sovereigngrace

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I’m glad Berean quotes this verse and I would like to hear a Preterist explanation of the last half - ‘the sea and waves roaring.’ Was there any unusual tidal activity during the 70 AD period? It is only mentioned in Luke’s gospel and seems to suggest the moon’s influence over the tides.

How do you see it? If a non-literal interpretation is how we should understand it, could you include the tidal picture in your figurative explanation? Partial Preterists please.

Agreed bro.
 
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Timtofly

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So if the second coming is at the end of the thousand years, we're in agreement.
Well it is it the end of 1990 years. Which specific 1000 do you want me to acknowledge?

It was not in 1030AD, so if you want me to think it was, we are not in agreement.
 
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sovereigngrace

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Well it is it the end of 1990 years. Which specific 1000 do you want me to acknowledge?

It was not in 1030AD, so if you want me to think it was, we are not in agreement.

If you are adamant in interpreting 1,000 years hyper-literally, how long is the “one hour” that the beast reigns with the “ten kings” in Revelation 17:12 is? i.e. is it sixty minutes?
 
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Freedm

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Well it is it the end of 1990 years. Which specific 1000 do you want me to acknowledge?

It was not in 1030AD, so if you want me to think it was, we are not in agreement.
Oh, I didn't realize you think of the thousand years as a literal thousand years. I interpret it to be referring to an undetermined amount of time, whatever it takes to complete the age.
 
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sovereigngrace

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Oh, I didn't realize you think of the thousand years as a literal thousand years. I interpret it to be referring to an undetermined amount of time, whatever it takes to complete the age.

I agree
 
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Christian Gedge

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If you are adamant in interpreting 1,000 years hyper-literally, how long is the “one hour” that the beast reigns with the “ten kings” in Revelation 17:12 is? i.e. is it sixty minutes?
When we say Revelation is a symbolic writing, the Futurists shoot us: When we say the Olivet discourse is a literal writing, the Preterists shoot us. It’s a dangerous place, this end-times forum.
 
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sovereigngrace

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When we say Revelation is a symbolic writing, the Futurists shoot us: When we say the Olivet discourse is a literal writing, the Preterists shoot us. It’s a dangerous place, this end-times forum.

Very good point.
 
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Timtofly

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If you are adamant in interpreting 1,000 years hyper-literally, how long is the “one hour” that the beast reigns with the “ten kings” in Revelation 17:12 is? i.e. is it sixty minutes?
Peter in 2 Peter 3 is addressing the 7 Days/1000 year periods since the beginning of creation in Genesis 1. How is using Peters admonition to not be ignorant, being hyper literal?

Should it even take Christ 60 minutes to kill them, or was that too long for them to suffer as they were dying? The 60 minutes may have covered the time it took to assemble on a single battlefield the only humans left on the planet.

Do you think Satan let them rule the whole 42 months? The only major event involving Satan vs. Christ in the Revelation 17 vicinity is the battle of Armageddon.
 
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Timtofly

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Oh, I didn't realize you think of the thousand years as a literal thousand years. I interpret it to be referring to an undetermined amount of time, whatever it takes to complete the age.
Well it has not happened yet, so I would think Christ being a punctual and on time God, will just do as He claims.
 
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Timtofly

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When we say Revelation is a symbolic writing, the Futurists shoot us: When we say the Olivet discourse is a literal writing, the Preterists shoot us. It’s a dangerous place, this end-times forum.
I am not a futurist, preterist, historist, or any "ist". If there is a millennium in Revelation 20, how can it not be a thing? The post-mil at least left it as is. The Second Coming happens before Revelation 20, so what is the issue?

What is wrong with reading Revelation as is without changing it? The claim it is out of chronological order is about as insane as higher criticism pointing out all the contradictions in Scripture. It seems that if a verse does not prove "our theology" we will say, "There are contradictions and the chronology is all wrong", thus "we are correct".
 
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Christian Gedge

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The opening post is pure science. Time began when the Sun and Moon began.

sovereigngrace said:
Time had a beginning, just like this world had a beginning. … There was no time or seasons before there was a sun and moon. It was simply space and eternity. Basically: (eternity and space) – time – (eternity and space). Of course, God gave the sun, moon and stars to give physical light to the earth. But they were also given in order to measure time. These brought distinct order, systematic structure and identifiable chronology. It is from this that we get classifiable years, months, days, hours and seconds.

Sovereigngrace then develops his arguments to show how time as we know it will have an end. It will end when the sun and moon ends!

sovereigngrace said:
Time revolves around day and night – the sun and the moon. That is where order and regularity began. So, we know there was a beginning to time (creation of the sun and moon), and I believe there will be an end of time … We have already noticed in Genesis 1:14-18 how God has furnished mankind with the sun, moon and stars to give light and also to gauge time. But Scripture teaches that these will not last forever. They will be with us as long as there is time. Without them we do not have time. When Jesus comes these are rendered unnecessary and redundant. That is because God is the eternal light that will light eternity. We find support for this in Revelation 21:23 and 22:5.

Revelation 21:23 records: And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.”

Revelation 22:5 testifies: And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.”

There are no sun or moon in eternity. There is no day or night in eternity. There is no divisions of years, months, days, hours and seconds. We have one eternal unbroken day/age.

The more I read this, the more I think you are on to something very significant. Thanks SG, for thinking it out so thoroughly. It will certainly have an impact on how we interpret the Olivet discourse. Futurists and Preterists will face serious implications when they consider Jesus’ description of the collapse of sun, moon, star and solar system.

I hope I haven’t gone off topic here, but it occurred to me that “the waves and seas roaring” (Luke 21:25) must be related to the collapse of the moon. :eek:
 
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BABerean2

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The claim it is out of chronological order is about as insane as higher criticism pointing out all the contradictions in Scripture.


Because Christ comes as a thief at Armageddon in Revelation 16:15-16, and He also comes in chapter 19, there is no way the Book of Revelation can be in chronological order.

Once again, your claim does not match up to what is plainly written in the Bible.

.
 
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Timtofly

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Because Christ comes as a thief at Armageddon in Revelation 16:15-16, and He also comes in chapter 19, there is no way the Book of Revelation can be in chronological order.

Once again, your claim does not match up to what is plainly written in the Bible.

.
You do realize that Revelation 19:15 claims Christ is coming to rule the nations at the battle of Armageddon. You still have to explain how an army of white horses is coming in broad daylight is going to surprise those arrayed for battle at Megiddo. Do you think that is still a warning about being prepared for sudden death? It is a warning every where else, no?

Revelation plainly states Christ is coming to destroy the last of humanity ON THE EARTH. NOT the earth. The beast and FP tossed into the Lake of Fire, Satan bound. Jesus calling the dead to life to reign with Him 1000 years. Then after that calling the dead to eternal damnation.

That is pretty much the plain reading without adding human theology, or twisting the chronology, or making stuff up. Care to twist the chronology to make it read any plainer? Care to add human theology, or make stuff up it does not say?
 
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Andrewn

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There are no sun or moon in eternity. There is no day or night in eternity. There is no divisions of years, months, days, hours and seconds. We have one eternal unbroken day/age.
Sorry, I'm just reading your OP, which is divided into 4 long messages. But I need to point at something that should be really obvious. Time itself, as expressed in there being days and nights, was there before creation of the sun and the moon in the 4th day. The beginning has nothing to do with the sun and the moon.

Gen 1:5 God called the light “day,” and the darkness He called “night.” So there was evening and there was morning—one day. 8 God called the expanse “sky.” So there was evening and there was morning—a second day. 13 So there was evening and there was morning—a third day.

Paul confirms the finality of the return of Jesus, in 1 Corinthians 15:22-24, stating, “as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming [Gr. parousia]. Then cometh the end [Gr. telos], when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.”

Please note the careful correlation between the parousia and the telos. This is a truth that is found throughout the NT. They are synonymous with each other.
The word "telos" doesn't indicates end of time. It indicates end of the plan, its fulfillment, its goal, its completion. Thus it has nothing to do with the sun and moon.

To inherit the new earth is actually to be qualified to populate it. Only the new creation can inherit the new creation. The new glorified incorrupt earth is not for mortals. It is not for the wicked. It is for the incorupt redeemed. It is for the glorified saints.
Yes, absolutely.
 
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BABerean2

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You do realize that Revelation 19:15 claims Christ is coming to rule the nations at the battle of Armageddon.



Rev 16:15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
Rev 16:16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.


Do you realize you are attempting to ignore or redefine the passage above in an effort to force the Book of Revelation to fit your chronology?

.
 
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sovereigngrace

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Sorry, I'm just reading your OP, which is divided into 4 long messages. But I need to point at something that should be really obvious. Time itself, as expressed in there being days and nights, was there before creation of the sun and the moon in the 4th day. The beginning has nothing to do with the sun and the moon.

Gen 1:5 God called the light “day,” and the darkness He called “night.” So there was evening and there was morning—one day. 8 God called the expanse “sky.” So there was evening and there was morning—a second day. 13 So there was evening and there was morning—a third day.


The word "telos" doesn't indicates end of time. It indicates end of the plan, its fulfillment, its goal, its completion. Thus it has nothing to do with the sun and moon.


Yes, absolutely.

You make some great points.

As a precursory and preparative arrangement, God created light to divide the day from the night - showing what was about to come. How that looked we do not get much detail. It was obviously a temporary and provisional arrangement (for 3 days) which mirrored and preceded the function of the sun and moon, which would ultimately divide day from night and determine time. This was brief and interim, because the calendar and time is shown in Scripture to be determined by the sun and moon.

Genesis 1:14-18 confirms: "And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years: And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so. And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also. And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth, And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good."

We have an explicit statement here that time is determined by the sun and the moon. This is what produces order and regularity. I do not believe the provisional order that governed the first 3 days negates the important and orderly role of the sun and moon in determining time.

This finishes when time shall be no more.
 
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Spiritual Jew

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I am not a futurist, preterist, historist, or any "ist". If there is a millennium in Revelation 20, how can it not be a thing? The post-mil at least left it as is. The Second Coming happens before Revelation 20, so what is the issue?
So, using your logic, I guess this means the events that occur with the sounding of the seventh trumpet, described in Revelation 11:15-18, happened before the birth and ascension of Christ which are mentioned in Revelation 12:5?

What is wrong with reading Revelation as is without changing it? The claim it is out of chronological order is about as insane as higher criticism pointing out all the contradictions in Scripture. It seems that if a verse does not prove "our theology" we will say, "There are contradictions and the chronology is all wrong", thus "we are correct".
Yes, what can possibly be wrong with thinking that the seventh trumpet sounded before the birth and ascension of Christ? Because the entire book is chronological, right? It would be insane to think otherwise. Am I right or what?
 
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