Can anyone be saved through living righteously?

rturner76

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When Jesus speaks of separating the sheep and the goats, it's a reference to distinguishing two groups that are nearly identical. In fact, in a lot of Asian and Near Eastern cultures there's no distinction made between a sheep and a goat, nor does there seem to be much distinction Biblically prior as both were acceptable sacrifices wherever one was accepted. So the people he's separating already have something in common, they're supposedly followers of Christ. As for the OP question, you're putting the cart before the horse declaring them righteous for such things as righteousness is purely about believing God. Did they believe God, and do as He required? Then they would be saved, not for their righteousness but for God's grace as their righteousness is nothing before God. So the question is incorrect, one cannot be righteous apart from God's revealed religion because in failing to adhere to it they call God a liar and are guilty of utmost unrighteousness.
So it's faith that saves and not grace?
 
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Saint Steven

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I was looking at this passage in the Bible:

I was hungry and you fed me, thirsty and you gave me a drink; I was a stranger and you received me in your homes, naked and you clothed me; I was sick and you took care of me, in prison and you visited me.’ “The righteous will then answer him, ‘When, Lord, did we ever see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you a drink? When did we ever see you a stranger and welcome you in our homes, or naked and clothe you? When did we ever see you sick or in prison, and visit you?’ The King will reply, ‘I tell you, whenever you did this for one of the least important of these members of my family, you did it for me!’

Will people like Gandhi, Tha Dali Lama, and other people who live to serve in soup kitchens and homeless shelters dedicating their lives to peace be given eternal life?
Yes, you can be saved through righteous living, according to this scripture. Unless "... take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world." doesn't mean salvation. Anyone who does these things fro the church is entitled.

Matthew 25:34-36
“Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’
 
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Saint Steven

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Yes, you can be saved through righteous living, according to this scripture. Unless "... take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world." doesn't mean salvation. Anyone who does these things fro the church is entitled.

Matthew 25:34-36
“Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’
@rturner76 -- Here's another one that is along the same lines.

Romans 2:14-16
(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.) 16 This will take place on the day when God judges people’s secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.
 
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Saint Steven

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You will note they are called the righteous. They did those things because they were righteous, it didn't make them righteous.
But what about the other statement? Those who didn't serve the church? On what basis were the sheep and goats separated?

Matthew 25:41-46
“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’
44 “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’
45 “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’
46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”
 
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Saint Steven

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I put this in "Controversial" so I can ask: Is it possible to have faith and obedience in God if it is not the revalation of the Abrahamic God? Are faith and obedience only rewarded if you learn the Revelation of Christ?

If so, why does God send billions of people who have obedience and faith in an all powerful entity to hell?
If there is another saving God who is not the "Abrahamic" God, that would indicate polytheism. (both Islam and Judaism also believe in the Abrahamic God) Here is what happens ultimately. IMO

Every knee bow and every tongue confess, in heaven and on earth and under the earth. (the realm of the dead) Each will: fully agree, openly, whole-heartedly, openly declare, without reservation, no holding back; Jesus Christ is Lord.


Philippians 2:10-11
that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.

Note on "acknowledge" in Philippians 2:11 from Strong's Concordance
S1843 eksomologéō (from 1537 /ek, "wholly out from," intensifying 3670 /homologéō, "say the same thing about") – properly, fully agree and to acknowledge that agreement openly (whole-heartedly); hence, to confess ("openly declare"), without reservation (no holding back).
 
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rturner76

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@rturner76 -- Here's another one that is along the same lines.

Romans 2:14-16
(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.) 16 This will take place on the day when God judges people’s secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.
Nice, I was not aware of this passage. I think it's saying even if people are not members of the correct denomination, God speaks to them through their conscience.

The conscience is God speaking to us is how I see it, and if we listen to our conscience, we listen to God. In that way he has made himself available to all people regardless of language, creed, or culture.

Thank you for this passage, I am going to highlight it on my youbible account for future reference.
 
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rturner76

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If there is another saving God who is not the "Abrahamic" God, that would indicate polytheism. (both Islam and Judaism also believe in the Abrahamic God) Here is what happens ultimately. IMO

Every knee bow and every tongue confess, in heaven and on earth and under the earth. (the realm of the dead) Each will: fully agree, openly, whole-heartedly, openly declare, without reservation, no holding back; Jesus Christ is Lord.


Philippians 2:10-11
that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.

Note on "acknowledge" in Philippians 2:11 from Strong's Concordance
S1843 eksomologéō (from 1537 /ek, "wholly out from," intensifying 3670 /homologéō, "say the same thing about") – properly, fully agree and to acknowledge that agreement openly (whole-heartedly); hence, to confess ("openly declare"), without reservation (no holding back).
This is the passage that got me thinking about this topic. That EVERY knee should bend" It doesn't say "a great many knees will bend" but EVERY SINGLE ONE. I think when our time comes, the full revalation is given to us and we simply can't refuse it.

Thank you for your contribution to this thread. Very informative.
 
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Saint Steven

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This is the passage that got me thinking about this topic. That EVERY knee should bend" It doesn't say "a great many knees will bend" but EVERY SINGLE ONE. I think when our time comes, the full revalation is given to us and we simply can't refuse it.

Thank you for your contribution to this thread. Very informative.
Here's a shocking question. Do demons have knees?
 
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Der Alte

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OK you win, God sends 3/5ths of his creation to hell for eternal torment and Christ's sacrifice was not sufficient to save any of them. Winner winner chicken dinner!
Typical heterodox rubbish. Is that what your so-called teachers/leaders program teach their followers? I feel sorry for people who belong to such groups.
There is no contradiction in the Bible however, there is a contradiction between what some groups teach and what the Bible actually says, as I have shown, more than once.
God does not arbitrarily send anyone to eternal punishment.
Christ's sacrifice is sufficient but neither God nor Jesus forcibly makes anyone believe in Him.
God makes His enemies a footstool for Jesus' feet. Not one single verse says those enemies will become faithful believers, either willingly of by force.
Psalms 110:1, Mark 12:36, Luke 20:43, Acts of the apostles 2;35, Hebrews 1:13
Surely if God will save all mankind, righteous and unrighteous alike, even after death then scripture should show God, Himself or Jesus, Himself clearly stating that. Where is that verse?
Matthew 7:21-22
Romans 4:15
Romans 5:13
Psalms 19:1-4
Romans 1:18-20
 
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sawdust

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But what about the other statement? Those who didn't serve the church? On what basis were the sheep and goats separated?

Matthew 25:41-46
“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’
44 “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’
45 “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’
46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

On the opposite basis. They weren't righteous so they did not do righteous deeds.
 
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Saint Steven

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On the opposite basis. They weren't righteous so they did not do righteous deeds.
But it's not a general statement. The list of items is very specific. Even limited. (only these things) Have you done them?

Saint Steven said:
But what about the other statement? Those who didn't serve the church? On what basis were the sheep and goats separated?

Matthew 25:41-46
“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’
44 “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’
45 “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’
46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”
 
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sawdust

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But it's not a general statement. The list of items is very specific. Even limited. (only these things) Have you done them?

Saint Steven said:
But what about the other statement? Those who didn't serve the church? On what basis were the sheep and goats separated?

Matthew 25:41-46
“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’
44 “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’
45 “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’
46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

What's your point? Jesus is using a person's basic needs as an illustration. Think about it ... if a person is unwilling to cater to another's most basic needs, what sort of person must they be?
 
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Saint Steven

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What's your point? Jesus is using a person's basic needs as an illustration. Think about it ... if a person is unwilling to cater to another's most basic needs, what sort of person must they be?
Well, that's pretty much everyone on the planet. Who goes to hell then? Just the few who refused to cater to the human needs of others?
 
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sawdust

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Well, that's pretty much everyone on the planet. Who goes to hell then? Just the few who refused to cater to the human needs of others?

Wow! What a cynic. Guess all those charities worldwide have their money fall from the sky.

Evil people go to Hell (aka. Lake of Fire). Evil people are those who reject God utterly for they prefer darkness. Not something the majority of us will ever relate to. While all of us are culpable of evil, it doesn't mean we are evil. People learn to be evil just as they learn to be good. It is never innate.
 
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Saint Steven

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Wow! What a cynic. Guess all those charities worldwide have their money fall from the sky.

Evil people go to Hell (aka. Lake of Fire). Evil people are those who reject God utterly for they prefer darkness. Not something the majority of us will ever relate to. While all of us are culpable of evil, it doesn't mean we are evil. People learn to be evil just as they learn to be good. It is never innate.
Evil is learned, never innate?
What did we inherit from Adam (Eve) if not innate evil? What the bible calls the natural, or carnal (sin) nature. Are we not all condemned from birth?
 
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ViaCrucis

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I was looking at this passage in the Bible:

I was hungry and you fed me, thirsty and you gave me a drink; I was a stranger and you received me in your homes, naked and you clothed me; I was sick and you took care of me, in prison and you visited me.’ “The righteous will then answer him, ‘When, Lord, did we ever see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you a drink? When did we ever see you a stranger and welcome you in our homes, or naked and clothe you? When did we ever see you sick or in prison, and visit you?’ The King will reply, ‘I tell you, whenever you did this for one of the least important of these members of my family, you did it for me!’

Will people like Gandhi, Tha Dali Lama, and other people who live to serve in soup kitchens and homeless shelters dedicating their lives to peace be given eternal life?

Well, I'd put it like this: A person who lived in such perfect communion with God and in total perfect justice is a person who wouldn't need saving.

So the question "can a person be saved by living righteously" doesn't necessarily make sense.

The reason why Christianity has always rejected the idea that a person can "be saved" by one's own righteous works or merit is because human beings, estranged from God, don't live in perfect communion with God and in total perfect justice. Find the best of the best of our species, and you still have a broken sinner in need of God's grace.

Our Lord Jesus, uniquely, is the only human person who has accomplished that, and He's God.

What our Lord's words in Matthew 25 teach us isn't that if we just try really hard we can attain glory; but rather is Law (and the Law cannot make one righteous). What does that mean then? That means that as Law it:

1) Establishes what is right and good and ought to be done.
2) In establishing what ought to be done, demonstrates our own failure to do it, we haven't treated the least of these the way Christ says we should, but we have universally failed to do this.
3) Now by the grace of God, living in the faith we have been given from God, this is how we ought to conduct ourselves in this life.

That is the force of the Law. And it is the same here as anywhere else we find the solemn command of our Lord and God: The Law establishes justice, reveals that we are unjust, and then establishes for us as God's people the rule by which we ought to live.

It is in the fact that we fail to obey the Law that the trouble arises. That's sin, that's the common and universal malady of all mankind. That's why the Law does not justify, but rather condemns us. See what the Apostle St. Paul says in Romans ch. 7.

And so that is the reason why St. Paul says what he says throughout all his epistles, that no one can be found righteous by the Law, but can only be justified by God's grace, which is freely given through faith; and that is a faith which we receive by the word of God. Thus our salvation comes from God alone, who accomplishes this good for us in and by Jesus Christ our Savior who has reconciled us to God, establishing peace, forgiving us all of our sins, and reckoning us just as pure grace.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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rturner76

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Where is that verse?
I already posted multiple verses that say all will be saved. That doesn't mean everybody gets a free ticket. Fire purifies. Nothing will enter heaven that isn't purified.

People love to think they are of the in-crowd and they are they chosen few. God saves his children. Jesus' sacrifice is sufficient. It lacks nothing.

Titus 2:11 ESV
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people

All people, not the chosen few. The Bible also says:

Matthew 25:41 ESV
“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

How is that NOT a contradiction? Oh, it's how you interpret the verse, it's not what the verse plainly says right?

Sorry to dismantle your belief system, don't be mad at me for pointing out what the Bible literally says.
 
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rturner76

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Well, I'd put it like this: A person who lived in such perfect communion with God and in total perfect justice is a person who wouldn't need saving.

So the question "can a person be saved by living righteously" doesn't necessarily make sense.

The reason why Christianity has always rejected the idea that a person can "be saved" by one's own righteous works or merit is because human beings, estranged from God, don't live in perfect communion with God and in total perfect justice. Find the best of the best of our species, and you still have a broken sinner in need of God's grace.

Our Lord Jesus, uniquely, is the only human person who has accomplished that, and He's God.

What our Lord's words in Matthew 25 teach us isn't that if we just try really hard we can attain glory; but rather is Law (and the Law cannot make one righteous). What does that mean then? That means that as Law it:

1) Establishes what is right and good and ought to be done.
2) In establishing what ought to be done, demonstrates our own failure to do it, we haven't treated the least of these the way Christ says we should, but we have universally failed to do this.
3) Now by the grace of God, living in the faith we have been given from God, this is how we ought to conduct ourselves in this life.

That is the force of the Law. And it is the same here as anywhere else we find the solemn command of our Lord and God: The Law establishes justice, reveals that we are unjust, and then establishes for us as God's people the rule by which we ought to live.

It is in the fact that we fail to obey the Law that the trouble arises. That's sin, that's the common and universal malady of all mankind. That's why the Law does not justify, but rather condemns us. See what the Apostle St. Paul says in Romans ch. 7.

And so that is the reason why St. Paul says what he says throughout all his epistles, that no one can be found righteous by the Law, but can only be justified by God's grace, which is freely given through faith; and that is a faith which we receive by the word of God. Thus our salvation comes from God alone, who accomplishes this good for us in and by Jesus Christ our Savior who has reconciled us to God, establishing peace, forgiving us all of our sins, and reckoning us just as pure grace.

-CryptoLutheran
You must be a pastor. You got Christianity down pat.

One question though. Is it faith that saves (which seems to be an action we take in accepting faith) or grace (unearned free merit)?
 
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Der Alte

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I already posted multiple verses that say all will be saved. That doesn't mean everybody gets a free ticket. Fire purifies. Nothing will enter heaven that isn't purified.
Nowhere in the Bible does any verse unequivocally say that all mankind will be purified and saved.
People love to think they are of the in-crowd and they are they chosen few. God saves his children. Jesus' sacrifice is sufficient. It lacks nothing.
Yes and you are one such person because your so-called leaders/teachers have intensely taught you what to believe.
Titus 2:11 ESV
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people
All people, not the chosen few.
"FOR" all people not "TO" all people.
The Bible also says
Matthew 25:41 ESV
“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
How is that NOT a contradiction? Oh, it's how you interpret the verse, it's not what the verse plainly says right?
No it is how you deliberately misinterpret the verse. You think any version except the UR cherry picker version is biased.
…..Greek is now, and for 2000+ years has been, the language of the Eastern Greek Orthodox church. Who, better than the native Greek speaking scholars who translated the “literal” Greek Eastern Orthodox Bible [EOB], know the correct meaning of Greek words, e.g. “Gehenna,””aiōnios,”“kolasis” etc?

EOB, footnote pg. 180
……“Hades is the realm of the dead. The upper part of hades was considered to be luminous and it was called “paradise” or "Abraham's bosom.” Hades is not to be confused with hell (Gehenna) which is the final place of state or place of the damned (“the lake of’ fire”).”
= = = = = = = = = =
The Eastern Greek Orthodox Bible EOB—New Testament 96
Matthew 25:46 Then he will answer them saying ‘Amen. I tell you: as much as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.' “These [[ones on the left]] will go away into eternal punishment.[κολασιν αιονιον/kolasin aiōnion] but the righteous into eternal life.

Online Bible Search - Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America
Sorry to dismantle your belief system, don't be mad at me for pointing out what the Bible literally says.
You have not dismantled anything. You have not pointed out what the Bible literally says. You post is nothing more than "I'm right and you're wrong! Am too! Nuh huh!
 
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Der Alte

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@rturner76
I am still waiting for one verse, two or more would be better, where God, Himself or Jesus, Himself, unequivocally says all mankind will be saved, righteous and unrighteous, alike, even after death or words to that effect.
I don't mean the words of an OT prophet or NT disciple. e.g. "God said..." or "Jesus said..."
 
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