Answer me this question.

Neostarwcc said:

Question, if God promised Abraham (let's just forget that God had to bring Abraham out of unbelief to begin with) descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky how did he acckmplish his election based on forseen belief?

Why didn't he choose Israel this way? Because God said "You are my chosen people not due to any characteristics or qualifications of your own. You are mine" in fact most of Israel doesn't believe in or follow God. So how can God save a people as vast as the stars in the sky if it is based on forseen belief? Do we honestly think billions of people believe on their own after hearing the gospel? Do we honestly think that there isn't some kind of unconditional election going on here? Since God chose Israel unconditonally? Why did God's method of Election change for the gentiles? Please explain.

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Everyone called in this the "church age" was predestined to be called. All Israel will be called during the millennium.

Neostarwcc said:

Since God chose Israel unconditonally? Why did God's method of Election change for the gentiles? Please explain.

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The specificity was only "until Christ". Jesus had to fulfill all that was written and prophesied about Him in order to testify that He is God....the one whom God appointed to judge the living and the dead.



A lot of changes came during His first advent....His ministry on earth. You're just referring to one of the changes of many.

Neostarwcc said:

So God promised a people to Abraham that he knew would obey and believe in him? A completely and totally fallen creation that doesn't even think of God or his gospel?

Im asking this because its proven in Revelation 7:9 that these people do in fact exist and will come to exist from every tribe tongue and nation. I guess my question is, how can fallen nations and tribes come to God on their own? There has to be some sort of election and work on God's part to make the promise to Abraham come true. The saved in heaven are a great and massive number i dont believe its possible that a large number of people as vast as the stars would come to God on their own. There has to be work on God's behalf of some sort to make his wonderful promise come true.

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This appears to take place during Christ's reign on earth for 1000 years, not in heaven. The narrative is vague regarding their 'salvation'. What is said is that they repented of sin (white robes) and that Christ is their shepherd who will lead them to life.

Neostarwcc said:

So God promised a people to Abraham that he knew would obey and believe in him? A completely and totally fallen creation that doesn't even think of God or his gospel?

Im asking this because its proven in Revelation 7:9 that these people do in fact exist and will come to exist from every tribe tongue and nation. I guess my question is, how can fallen nations and tribes come to God on their own? There has to be some sort of election and work on God's part to make the promise to Abraham come true. The saved in heaven are a great and massive number i dont believe its possible that a large number of people as vast as the stars would come to God on their own. There has to be work on God's behalf of some sort to make his wonderful promise come true.

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The elect are born into this world totally depraved, and without hope. Sometime in their life God quickens them to a spiritual life with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit while they are yet dead, spiritually, in their sins, Eph 2.

OldWiseGuy said:

Everyone called in this the "church age" was predestined to be called. All Israel will be called during the millennium.

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mnnnn, maybe if you preexisted as an angel and have previous experience of leaving a former post. All won’t be all until all of deh vine is in the Father’s hands.

Neostarwcc said:

Question, if God promised Abraham (let's just forget that God had to bring Abraham out of unbelief to begin with) descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky how did he acckmplish his election based on forseen belief?

Why didn't he choose Israel this way? Because God said "You are my chosen people not due to any characteristics or qualifications of your own. You are mine" in fact most of Israel doesn't believe in or follow God. So how can God save a people as vast as the stars in the sky if it is based on forseen belief? Do we honestly think billions of people believe on their own after hearing the gospel? Do we honestly think that there isn't some kind of unconditional election going on here? Since God chose Israel unconditonally? Why did God's method of Election change for the gentiles? Please explain.

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God chooses one person as pastor and another as teacher according to 1 Cor 12-- choosing the role of the person in the church is up to God. So God chooses Israel to be a "nation of priests" to proclaim the gospel to the world.

But as Romans 4 points out - we are all spiritually descendants of Abraham if we worship his God as the Bible instructs. So there you get to the "sands of the sea shore" and Romans 2 brings that out at the end of that chapter as well.

And of course "God so loved the WORLD that HE gave" John 3:16 -- His love is toward all
"I will draw ALL mankind unto Me" John 12:32 - His drawing of all is unlimited in its scope toward fallen mankind.

Neostarwcc said:

Question, if God promised Abraham (let's just forget that God had to bring Abraham out of unbelief to begin with) descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky how did he acckmplish his election based on forseen belief?

Why didn't he choose Israel this way? Because God said "You are my chosen people not due to any characteristics or qualifications of your own. You are mine" in fact most of Israel doesn't believe in or follow God. So how can God save a people as vast as the stars in the sky if it is based on forseen belief? Do we honestly think billions of people believe on their own after hearing the gospel? Do we honestly think that there isn't some kind of unconditional election going on here?

Click to expand...

Since God chose Israel unconditonally? Why did God's method of Election change for the gentiles? Please explain.

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The seed promised to Abraham is Christ (Gal 3:16), in whom by faith they are as numerous as the stars in the sky (Ge 15:5).
The promises were to Abraham and to his seed (singular), Jesus Christ (Gal 3:16).
If you are in Jesus Christ, you are Abraham's seed and heirs according to the promise to Abraham (Gal 3:27).

God chose Abraham and his seed (singular), Jesus Christ (the Promise) unconditionally (Gal 3:16).
God did not choose all Abraham's descendants. He chose those who believed in the Promise (Christ).

When Israel came out of Egypt, God added the Sinaitic Mosaic covenant (Gal 3:17,19),
conditioned on the Mosaic law (Ex 19:5-6, "if you obey me"),
to the unconditional covenant and promise to Abraham and his seed, Jesus Christ (Gal 3:16).

God's choice of Israel to be his people was not unconditional then, and
it is not unconditional now (Ro 11:23, "if they believe").
Unbelieving Israel is on the same footing as are unbelieving Hindus, Buddhists, or pagans; i.e.,
salvation is only by faith in the shed blood of Jesus Christ (the Promise) for the remission of their sin.

The conditional Mosaic covenant was temporary (Heb 8:13), and did not set aside the unconditional Abrahamic covenant (Gal 3:17).
The temporary Mosaic covenant was added (Gal 3:19) to the Abrahamic covenant to show what sin is,
for although sin abounded in the world, it was not counted against them,
because there was no stated law from God which they violated (Ro 5:13).

God's election is based in nothing but his pleasure and will (Eph 1:5).
.

The promises of the unconditional Abrahamic Covenant were spoken to Abraham and to his seed (singular), Christ (Gal 3:16).

The unconditional promises to them were two:

to Abraham:
1) seed as numerous as the stars in the sky (Ge 15:5)--fulfilled in Christ (Gal 3:16) and in all the OT and NT saints who who are in Christ, through faith in the Promise (Christ);

2) everlasting inheritance (land) (Ge 17:8)--fulfilled in heavenly land, country, city (Heb 11:13-16).
Abraham, Isaac and Jacob never possessed a foot of ground there (Ac 7:5) in Canaan.

to his Seed, Christ (Gal 3:16):
1) seed as numerous as stars in the sky (Ge15:5)--fulfilled in the OT and NT saints,
whom he ransomed (Isa 53:10) from violations of Mosaic law (Heb 9:15; Ro 3:25),
and from slavery to sin and death (Mk 10:45);

2) everlasting inheritance--fulfilled in OT and NT saints whom he bought back with his blood,
the Church (Heb 11:22-24), the one olive tree (Ro 11:27, 23), going back to Abraham (Gal 3:29), and
who are God's/Christ's inheritance
(Eph 1:18; Ex 34:9; Dt 9:26, 29, 32:9; Ps 33:12, 28:9, 74:2, 94:14, 106:5, 40; Zeph 3:17).

The Covenant promises to Abraham have all been fulfilled.

Neostarwcc said:

Question, if God promised Abraham (let's just forget that God had to bring Abraham out of unbelief to begin with) descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky how did he acckmplish his election based on forseen belief?

Why didn't he choose Israel this way? Because God said "You are my chosen people not due to any characteristics or qualifications of your own. You are mine" in fact most of Israel doesn't believe in or follow God. So how can God save a people as vast as the stars in the sky if it is based on forseen belief? Do we honestly think billions of people believe on their own after hearing the gospel? Do we honestly think that there isn't some kind of unconditional election going on here? Since God chose Israel unconditonally? Why did God's method of Election change for the gentiles? Please explain.

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"Israel is not chosen for salvation but for a purpose. They are called to display who Yahweh is to all the nations, so that all would come to know and worship the one true God. Salvation to the nations was not plan B. It was God’s mission all along.

Israel is in the perfect position to reveal God to the nations. They have seen and experienced Yahweh’s power and rescue for themselves." Who has God chosen? | BibleProject™

Neostarwcc said:

Why did God's method of Election change for the gentiles? Please explain.

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"elect according to foreknowledge", means that :

1.) All the born again are the Elect

2.) God knew who would Trust Christ before they are born, but He does not choose for them, as if He did, He would not have any need to accept your faith. (Grace Through Faith).(without works).

3.) "Predestined to be conformed", means that once you are born again, there is an end result...that is pre-determined to happen....= you will be conformed into the image of Christ, and this is the pre-determined outcome that is in place, for all who are born again.

Eilat said:

"elect according to foreknowledge", means that :

1.) All the born again are the Elect

2.) God knew who would Trust Christ before they are born, but He does not choose for them, as if He did, He would not have any need to accept your faith. (Grace Through Faith).(without works).

3.) "Predestined to be conformed", means that once you are born again, there is an end result...that is pre-determined to happen....= you will be conformed into the image of Christ, and this is the pre-determined outcome that is in place, for all who are born again.

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Rom 2:11 "God is not partial" when it comes to his love and reach toward all mankind

BobRyan said:

Rom 2:11 "God is NOT partial"
God is "not WILLING that ANY should perish" 2 Peter 3.
"IF ANYONE hears My voice AND opens the door - I WILL come in" Rev 3.
"He is the ATONING sacrifice for our sins and NOT for OUR sins only but for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD" 1 John 2:2
"God sent His Son to be the Savior of the WORLD" 1 John 4:14

Acts 10: 34 Then Peter opened his mouth and said: “In truth I perceive that God shows no partiality. 35 But in every nation whoever fears Him and works righteousness is accepted by Him.


John 1: 11 He came to His own, and His own did not receive Him. 12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name:

And how is it that those who are NOT "His OWN" come to Christ and receive Him?
"I will draw ALL mankind unto ME" John 12:32 -- the supernatural drawing of all mankind - by God Himself. That enables the choice for all mankind - that depravity disables.

"God so loved the WORLD that HE gave.." not downsizable to merely "God so loved the FEW of Matt 7 that He gave" --

A very fundamental truth in the Gospels

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Eilat said:

"elect according to foreknowledge", means that :

1.) All the born again are the Elect

2.) God knew who would Trust Christ before they are born, but He does not choose for them, as if He did, He would not have any need to accept your faith. (Grace Through Faith).(without works).

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God's "foreknowledge" means knowing what is going to happen because God has decreed that it shall happen, though it may not have yet occurred in time.

Ac 15:18 - Known to the Lord for ages are all his works.
Isa 48:3 - I foretold (predestined) the former things long ago, my mouth announced (decreed) them, and I made them known; then suddenly I acted (accomplished them), and they came to pass (decree fulfilled).

(Also see Ac 2:23, 4:28; Isa 37:26)

God's foreknowledge does not mean God knowing in advance what man is going to do, it
means God knowing in advance what he is going to do because he has decreed that he shall do it.

3.) "Predestined to be conformed", means that once you are born again, there is an end result...that is pre-determined to happen....= you will be conformed into the image of Christ, and this is the pre-determined outcome that is in place, for all who are born again.

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That's not what it means in regard to God's election of Isaac:

"Yet before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad--in order that God's purpose in election might stand:
(God's purpose came first, election was to accomplish that purpose)
not by works but by him who calls--
(elected not by anything they would do, but solely by God's pleasure and will; i.e., choice -- Eph 1:5)
she was told, 'The older will serve the younger.' Just as it is written: 'Jacob I loved, Esau I hated.' " (did not favor in his purpose) -- (Ro 9:11-12)

Likewise in Ro 8:32:
"For those whom God foreknew
(according to his purpose for them, not according to what they would do--Ro 9:11)
he also predestined (in fulfillment of his decreed purpose for them) to be conformed to the likeness of his Son.
.

I’m not so sure God saw all the multifacits of mankind, but the church is to show that of God. Perhaps that is the picture of man as angel?

Maybe it’s just me but I always have the escape route in sight

Neostarwcc said:

I guess my question is, how can fallen nations and tribes come to God on their own? There has to be some sort of election and work on God's part to make the promise to Abraham come true.

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As a Particular Baptist, I am a strong monergist ... believing that God saves whom He chooses, when He chooses and how He chooses and God does all of the work in saving men.

As a Christian, I think we have an obligation to understand the position of those brothers with whom we disagree and to present their views honestly when refuting them.

I was taught by Wesleyan Arminians (Church of God) for decades and I know of no person that advocates that anyone spontaneously wakes up one morning with a self-generated faith and an inexplicable desire to learn about Jesus so they can get saved. NOBODY will “come to God on their own” and nobody claims any differently. Those that emphasize “free will” over “predestination” would point you to Romans 10:14:

• “How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed? How will they believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how will they hear without a preacher?” [NASB]

and argue “So will My word be which goes forth from My mouth; It will not return to Me empty, Without accomplishing what I desire, And without succeeding in the matter for which I sent it.” [Isaiah 55:11 NASB].

In other words, they would argue that the Word of God itself has the power to call a heart toward God. God’s “work” was accomplished on the cross and in the writing of the Bible and is a work available to all who might hear the Good News.

They would argue that there is a corporate election. God knows that there will be a people that will believe in Christ, as surely as there will be a people that will reject Christ. God has chosen Christ, and all who will believe in Him, collectively, to be The People of God and the Body of Christ and the Bride of Christ and the inhabitants of the new Heaven-and-Earth.

I disagree with their interpretation, because I believe that God has chosen and known us individually, rather than collectively and they have the cart before the horse ... we believe BECAUSE we are chosen rather than we are chosen because we believe. However, we will get nowhere attacking strawman arguments.

BobRyan said:

Rom 2:11 "God is not partial"

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God has no favorites.

John 3:16. "WHOSOEVER"..... is who Christ came to redeem.

"ALL who call on the name of the Lord, shall be saved".

Clare73 said:

God's "foreknowledge" means knowing what is going to happen because God has decreed that it shall happen,
.

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God does not decree who will burn in the lake of Fire.
"Freewill" makes this Decree, and God Accepts it, either as Faith or Unbelief.

So, a person dies in a state of Faith or Unbelief. (Born again, or Christ Rejector).

This decision is made by the person, and God honors this Decision after you die.

Eilat said:

God has no favorites.

John 3:16. "WHOSOEVER"..... is who Christ came to redeem.

"ALL who call on the name of the Lord, shall be saved".

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• [John 3:16 NASB]
• 16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

Does “whoever believes” really mean anyone and everyone? Look what Jesus says a few chapters later ...

• [John 10:25-29 NASB]
• Jesus answered them, "I told you, and you do not believe; the works that I do in My Father's name, these testify of Me. "But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep. "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. "My Father, who has given [them] to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch [them] out of the Father's hand.

“My sheep” vs “not my sheep”
“Hear” vs “not hear”
“Believe” vs “not believe”
“Eternal live” vs “no eternal live”
“Gift from Father” vs “not a gift” (John 6:44)